I would like feedback on my situation from F/WSs. I would like to hear your comments and thoughts. Please and thank you for your help.
Here is me thread:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3275828

I'd like to hear your thought on "exposure". What is too much? Who to tell? etc.

Also your thoughts on:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3277869

"Poisoning the Well".

bobelina,

You seem like you're trying to present yourself as the hero doing everything right while your wife is dumping on you for no good reason. On the other hand, you're expressing a great deal of contempt for her and you apparently do not respect her choice not to be religious. That could be one source of her resentment. She's obviously very angry at something, and I don't buy the idea that it has nothing to do with you. I doubt very much that you have really done a proper plan A.

Now of course, no matter what you've done, she had no right to have an affair. At the same time, MB principles say that affairs rarely happen in happy marriages. People become vulnerable when their needs are not being met. You did something to help create the environment whereby your wife was vulnerable to an affair. I'm not blaming you, I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to be taking any responsibility for the failure of your marriage. The affair was only a symptom, not the entire problem.

If you want to save your marriage, you need to take a harder look at yourself and try to figure out why she is so angry at you. I'm sure part of it is that you've disrupted her affair, but I get the feeling that there is much more to it than just that.

Just to pick up on this one. Affairs do quite often happen in 'happy' marriages, where both spouses are satisfied with what the marriage provides for them, and have little reason to complain. The spur to have the affair is often weakness coinciding with opportunity, underpinned by lack of well thought out principles.

Affairs don't tend to happen in healthy marriages, but it's possible for a marriage to be both happy and unhealthy. Our tendency is to confuse the two.

I haven't read Bobelina's posts; this is a T/J. Apologies.

TA

You guys are so helpful. I'd love to hug you all and see, "Thanks", "You RocK".

Aphaeresis,
Thank you for your post, I've been waiting for someone to hammer me on this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
That is a good question, "Why is she so angry at me?", etc. That is why I'm posting. That is why I give so much info. I'm trying to keep the "picture" complete. I hope. Ask and I will tell as best I can. For what it's worth, I've let a few people close to my situation read my posts and so far they've agreed with what they've seen and heard with what I've posted. One of the things I do in my career is to "make things work". And sometimes you need an awful lot of info to get too the point of, "making things work". Please read this and let me know your thoughts. Please help me to understand my role in this. Thank you very much again for your post.

The religious thing:
Never forced on her. It has been in the context of:
It may be a good idea to attend this church where a lot of our friends attend and have been married at, etc. Maybe it would be good to be around people with a different perspective (please look closely at my original post:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...=all&vc=1).

I've tried to bring us to a different thought process/environment by going to "Church". I'd hoped it would give her hope, less despair.

Tell me more about a proper Plan A.
I thought I did well. Great, maybe not. But, my couselor and friends had thought I did a good job, and some of these friends are hers also. Not a single one knew of the affair, so that brings us back to her "Honesty and Openess", even her "Best Friend". When she started this A she all but cut off all contact with friends and family, Jan-Jun '06.

I was talking with the best friend the days of the exposure and told her of it, assuming she knew. She didn't.
Needless to say, she was LIVID with my wife.
(The only one who knew was a friend of hers out of town. Please try to understand why that's an issue. This woman, in the last year, has had DUI's, wrecked vehicles drunk, had to fight for custody of her kids as both fathers found her unfit. That's this year, let alone the last 10. Not to argue with you, but I believe my concerns with her friends and family, are beyond valid. Her older brother, heroin addict at home with parents, younger brother, pill-popping drinker at home with parents. Her dad is a fall down drunk nitely, her mom just bombed. I've been shut down by my wife for 15 years cause I had a concern with this. Would you leave your kids at Grandma and Grandpa's?).

My wife has painted me as an ogre, as I've found out through this, for years. It was a complete shock to our friends that this had happened. I was shocked to find out how much I've been bad mouthed. Not her talking about our problems or concerns with others but HAMMERING me. I've had friends say that they'd never heard me bad mouth her, and I don't believe I ever had. Patience.

Do I have faults? You betcha'. She IS disappointed in this marriage. Has she ever really voiced it? No. Honesty and Openness again. Did I voice it? No. I'd been shut down for years. I, long ago,'96, learned to keep my mouth shut. Was that the right thing to do? Absolutely not. We've both been living in limbo. I wished I'd found this info, books, websites, long ago.
I've learned she felt neglected, lonely, unappreciated, etc. She told a friend that she liked the attention she received in the affair. AS I learned this info, and I was being counseled and reading the materials and internalizing them, I did everything in my power to address those concerns of hers. I tried to identify her most important emotional needs. Anytime I tried to talk with her about this, I was shutdown (A few people have made mention of me being codependent, but I wonder if that may describe her).
And that's part of the D-Procedings. She has mostly, refused to talk about her discontent. I'd learned of her discontent from friends who'd find her drunk at the bar also. That's what I meant by getting my act together to meet her needs.
Once in counseling, he'd given us the "Emotional Needs Questionnaire". She refused to deal with it. I filled it (this is before exposure) showed it to her and she hit the roof over it. WTF?
I didn't force her to counseling. She wanted to go. She wanted to hear, "What bulls**it they were telling me". She would get made at me if I'd go and not tell her, she'd get mad at me if I'd ask her to go, if I didn't ask her to go, WTF.

When of our dear friends, a girl my wife grew up with and I have talked alot about this lately.
Last summer, I went to her house to pick up my kids and she asked me "What's going on with your wife?". "How so I ask?". "She's not being her self and acting like a 20 year old kid, talking about being out all the time, drinking, drugging (all this may have been eluded to cause my wife didn't admit to the coke use to a little later) and hanging out with these young girls. I asked her where you were and she flipped her hand, as whatever, f***k him".
So I told her what was going on. HER friend said, stop being a doormat and kick her out if she don't want to talk about what's going on. I was patient. It wasn't for another month that I kicked her out.
In Dec'06, I told our friend again about my concerns of an affair. "Not your wife. I'm 99 percent sure of that. I've known her most of my life. She's just hurt and angry. Just let her be."
"Feb'06, I called her after the exposure. Then often during the next few weeks. She pleaded with me to give it six months. The last couple weeks we've talked a lot. When I called to tell her of the divorce proceedings she laid into me, "Your not being fair", "What's she going to do?", "I don't like that counselor", etc. My wife has told her her side of the story to a degree (Honesty/Openness issues again).
At this point I've about had it, hearing how terrible I am and I tell her the full, detailed version of my side of the story over the next few days. "I can't believe you put up with this for so many years", she said. "I'm afraid I'm picking sides". "You need to get you and your girls out of there", etc. This is her friend, she grew up with.

As always, there is so much detail in this saga. In the end I'm still more concerned with her welfare then mine. I'll be OK. I'm afraid she is going to really hit hard bottom. Others have said let her, consequences. Maybe that's what really needs to happen. For her. Maybe that would help to open her eyes, to help her see her value, her role in this, that her life wasn't so miserable, that SHE holds the power to make her life good. No more blaming me, the kids (That is another story that I've yet to get into, It's not cool/BAD), God or no god, friends, family, money, etc. whatever.


I put these on another post on another site. I understand if they are out of context, but, too lazy to retype this. Maybe they will help explain things. Maybe:
-------------------------------
When the nitemare started, our oldest said she didn't want to live with her Mom if we split up. She said it again on Sun.
This "Poisoning of the Well" came up when I took the kids to lunch Sun. Then again I expected it to happen. Patience, grasshopper.
I listened. Reassured my kids things would work out for the best for everyone.

I've secured a place to live, Aug 1. Moved my monies around etc.
Back in Apr '06 I had moved the monies as she was spending it, her checks from restaurant were boucing, she was spending our money to float the restaurant and the girl from the restaurant. Then she took a charge account out for the restaurant. Finally got the money out of the restaurant recently to cover that.
When I moved my money she was livid.
Two weeks and counting. Kids and I can move away from this chaos to a better life.
Last nite she left to pick up her sisters drunk boyfriend from the bar. He has no drivers license, 5 kids 4 mothers, etc. You get the picture.
About MidNite she said to me, as she was leaving, as I was in the garage reading some posts, 'You probably don't care but I have to go pick up XYZ from the bar". She's right, I don't care. Just one more thing to distance my kids and I from.
------------------------------------
The custody thing, I believe, will take care of it's self. We've agreed to joint custody/placement. 50/50. Go our seperate ways. Cut ties, etc.
Do I think it will be that way? Nah. I have a feeling it may be difficult, I hope not. But if she continues to be difficult it'll just bite her in the [censored].
That's where that patience thing comes in. I don't mean to sound mean or condesending, but give'm enough time and rope and they'll take care of it themselves.
Patience.

Which brings up the co-dependancy thing again. Talked with councelor about this again too.
I can see that co-dependancy angle in all this. But I think my friend hit it on the head best when she kept reminding that my Mom kinda treated me this way too. Conditioning as my wife would say. I was used to it.

Which leads to my wife. Part of my patience with her is that her conditioning, having grown up in an alcoholic & dysfunctional environment, has really messed her up, especially expectations. Counselor and I have talked alot about this.
He'd asked me to be especially patient with her thru this because of how she grew up, her choice of friends, etc.
She has had some pretty bad role models in family, friends, etc. So I really tried to handle her with caution and care. Tried to always take into consideration how she grew up.
I talked about this with the OM's BS. She said "It's still no excuse". She's right.
Back in the day, my wife was the most awesome girl I had ever met. Unfreaking believable. My match made in Heaven.
Talk about meeting needs, making you feel like a million bucks, etc. So many everyday simple things she would do that would make my day.
And my wife is beautiful, she's gorgeous. Most beautiful smile ever. What the ****** happened? Things went down hill after we left the big city (where I was a big deal of sorts) to be near her family. And I think the key to her discontent is in that, in her family. Not exactly sure how, but that's it. Something I think maybe having to do with expectations in life. And that's why the patience again.
She seems very hurt, and angry and scared.
I'd thought that it was me who did this to her, in the beginning of all this. BUT as I learned and grew, and changed it become more and more apparent what they mean by it's not "you" it's "them".
ANd all of you, see that really clearly, that she has issues to deal with. It took me awhile to get that.
------
More stuff:
She has tried to involve me in a couple conversations. It was her B'Day Sat. On Fri, her sister brought a cake over. My eight your old told me of it, but I said go on in, as I was outside in the garage reading posts on my laptop.
Then I went for a ride. When I came back, wife said "Where did you go?, I said "Out" and carried on my way.
Kissed little one good nite tonite and my wife, who was in the room, made a comment about how nice the little ones room looked and I said that her room was pretty and I continued on my way. I did not say or do a thing for her B'day.
Little things like that this week.
But, I believe NC means NC.

Another thing I've not mentioned in these posts is that she blew off X-Mas, my B'Day, our anniversary, and F'day, etc. (But to sign a F'day card from kids and help with getting gift from kids).
I took her out for Anniversary though. Nice gift, cards flowers all the mushy stuff, and yes she was somewhat indifferent (False R(?)). Also V'Day and M'day.
A friend and I were talking Sat nite and she made a comment as to how in social situations, my wife is "all over me". I noticed that too. I've tried in these posts not to divulge too much personal/identity(?), but here I will.
The social situations would be performing in clubs as a musician.
She noticed my wife seemed to feel threatened. Interesting.
----------------------------

Your insite is valuable and important to me. If nothing else, at this point, I DO want to know why she's so angry at me. I still think that I'm just the focus of her anger. Maybe she hates me the most, cause I actually have put up with her, this nightmare, that I still care after all this, that I've tried to work it out, etc, whatever. And I wonder if that's the expectations, you know? Like maybe her self-esteem has always been so warped that she can't fathom that she could be forgiven, that she could still be loved. I don't know. Thoughts.
Thank all of you, again and again. You've been a wonderful bunch of people. I've learned a lot.

OK. I was talking with a coworker last nite about my sitch and work. He's another that helped me thru this.
We talked a bit about our students, I'm an instructor. Specifically students who come from a specific socioeconomic backgroud. Outside of work, I work within this socioeconomic environment. It's dysfunctional to say the least.
No dad's, no money, shootings, gangs, etc. And you know what I'm talking about.
I've been hammered at work because of these kids having issues with me. Interesting, as I grew up, to a certain degree although not entirely, just like them, minus the gangs and jail and shootings. But maybe I get hammered cause I know where they come from. Cause I will confront them. I will challange thier thought processes, thier antisocial, behavior, etc. Their Expectations.
In the end, most of these guys turnaround. And I think it's because, for most of them, it's the first time someone has challenged them to do the right thing, to believe in them, to teach them to believe in themselves, to let them know that they are worth something.
I'm telling you this because this is where I think my wife's head, spirit, attitude whatever is also.
She's never had someone believe in her, love her, stick out 15 years of ****** with her. That again is what I mean by expectations and her upbringing. These concepts are friggin' alien to her environment. They might say it, but they don't believe it. Too many generations of, for a lack of better words, of failure.
Why hate me?
Cause my sorry a*ss fell into the same trap. That, I think is why she hates me. Her knight in shining armor became just like everybody else she ever knew. I didn't set boundaries, I didn't protect her, I wasn't there for her, I was to busy making a career, I got fat, I got weak, etc. I failed her. (Come on girls, what do you think of that? Is that maybe part of the love that can be lost for your guy?)
Yup, I failed her. I became a pansy just like all the other men who have ever been in her life, ex BF, dad, g'pa, brothers, etc.
Believe you me, there isn't a day that goes by that I don't feel that pain, that I can't but hate(?) myself for failing my Eve, my ezer kenegdo.

bobelina,

Okay, with the additional details you gave it sounds like she's become an alcoholic or druggie? If that's the case, it's probably better that you let her go through with the divorce and you take custody of the kids. Not 50-50 but 100%. You should not even let the kids see her except when she is cold stone sober. You can't really do anything to help her right now except to stop protecting her from the consequences of her drinking/drugging. Things will only get worse until she seeks help or stops it on her own (some people are able to do this, but they have to feel like the addiction hurts worse than being sober.)

OK...Bobelina...what plan are you in???

If you're in plan B, then NC does mean NC, as you've said.

That means NO CONTACT. That means no talking, seeing, etc... If you're living in the same house, if she's able to talk to you at all, you're not in plan B.

MAYBE what you're doing would be considered a "180 plan"...but I'm not clear on all of that either.

How do you see your current "plan" working to resolve the situation?

Have you read up on the plans here? How does your current plan match with plan B as described on this site? I'm not tracking this.

You guys challenge ME !!! Thank you 100 times over.

Aphaeresis,
Your post got me down. Not good, not bad. Like how my friends and couselor make me "Own my S**hit". I love it that you said what you did. I think that my story often sounds very onesided, duh, I'm the one posting <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . I'm not afraid to admit my part in this. I appreciate the oppurtunity to tell how I've done my best to rectify things. And I like hearing what others see in what I've done. To be barometers, help me to right my wrongs.
Wheather my wife and I R or not, this will help me for the rest of my life.
I hope my story helps others.
A friend said I seem to be looking for validation by posting. Maybe so. Mostly feedback is what I desire. I want all of you guys thoughts and feelings. It helps me to heal, to grow etc. Hopefully it helps others too. I can not thank any of you enough.
I don't think she is an active druggie or alchohlic, but she can get there. It's in her gene pool. But, I'm starting to think that her mind is wired as an alcholics, hence enabling and codependency issues for us both, behavior and attitudes from her, etc. (If you haven't yet, read my main post).
Hence my leaving and D. I can't do her work any longer. I cannot protect her from her self anymore. I'm not being mean, I don't think, but it's affecting my health and I'm sure also our children's. I'm out because she won't own her "s**it".

Owl,
I have most all of Harley's books. DB. Venus/Mars, etc. If I've not bought them, I get them from the library.
I'm in a D. It is my last resort, but also to move on.
Would I take her back? Absolutely, under conditions. And as we know from MB those conditions are NON-NEGOTIABLE.
She crossed those boundaries again, after I drew the line in the sand. So I followed thru on the consequences, hence D proceedings.
I'm as best I can be NC with her. Opposite sides of the house. No communication but finances and kids. We've not said a word to each other in 2 days. Patience.
I'll be out of here Aug 1 at latest.

I'll be back. Gotta go teach a couple classes.

Thank you all again.

Friends:
A book list I gave to another in my shoes.
Check it out:
"Hope for the Seperated" - Gary Chapman
"Every Woman's Desire" - Stephen Arterburn
Anything written by Gary Smalley
"Bold Love" - Dan Allender
"Captivating" - John and Stasi Eldredge.
"Wild at Heart" - John Eldredge.
"It's (Mostly) His Fault" - Robert Alter.
Any of Harley's stuff:
MarriageBuilders.com
And of course "Divorce Remedy".

He mentioned a lot about his wife's "Lying".
I'm in the same boat. At this point in time, I believe nothing that she says.
I'd like to hear others view on lying.
I think it's a really real issue. I mentioned to OM BS my wife's "character flaw", including lying, lack of empathy, etc. thru this (She is a doctor), and she said that this is beyond "Character Flaw". Something to think about? Thoughts?

bobelina,

Okay, put it this way. Do her drinking and/or drug use interfere with her day to day life? Or does she just drink a little more than you'd like her to? The difference is very important.

Aphaeresis,
Did you read my original post?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...;gonew=1#UNREAD
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rt=all&vc=1
http://survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=177014&AP=41&HL=

I ask as it sounds as there may be a bit of a disconnect between what we are saying to each other. Maybe not.

Anyways. She is not activly drinking. She has only gone out in the last 10 months or so with me. She does get wasted though. We don't go out out to often, once or twice a month maybe to the bars/clubs.
When this nitemare was in its heaviest, Mar-Jul (?) '06 she was drinking ALL THE TIME. She would work all the shifts during the restaurants hours on all the days they were open, (Drink at work from what I understand). Then go drinking, then rendezvous with dude at the restaurant later.
The affair mostly took place in the restaurant after hours. It slowed down after he moved, but he was coming back to work there on some weekends.
She was drinking at the bars, with the girl from the restaurant that I mentioned in these posts, between shifts also. Some of the nites that she didn't come home, she was at this girls place and her brother, who sometimes stayed there, deals coke. Took me awhile to find out about the coke and who got it for her (Maybe I should turn him in?).
Also found out that my wife was friends with the brothers GF. All connected. Lots of new friends I found out about later.

She has been eating vicaden. I'm no longer monitoring her world, even though we are in the same house, so I'm not sure if she's still got any left. She seems to be acting depressed, lots of sleep and despondency. She keeps the kids close to her also. Maybe a comfort thing?
I'd asked for F/WS help as I want to know how they ended up R. What happened to make them 180? Curious at this point about that. I neither want or not want that in my sitch. I'm getting detached enough that it's kinda just interesting.
Healing space really works !!! But as in previous posts, I'm kinda moving from loving my wife to not really caring to R. Interesting.
Your posts keep me on my toes !!! Thanks again.

Okay, so she's not drinking as much as she used to but she's taking a habit-forming pain medication in spite of the fact that people with a history of substance abuse shouldn't be taking it. (See: http://www.drugs.com/vicodin.html)

Forget about stopping the divorce and do what you can to protect your kids. She's hooked on drugs and completely lost to you until she decides to quit.

Maybe.

I honest to God just woke up from a nitemare where my kid was lying to me, started to defend his lies, and justify them and lie more to cover them up.
(Yes I know, I don't have a boy, I have girls, dreams are whack like that). He was acting just like his Mom including the lies of omission.
In this dream I was having dinner with two couples I hadn't seen or talked to in long time and told them as to why I had been scarce for the last couple year and a half. And I told the about this f**king h**ll with my wife.
My kid was mad at me cause I started getting angry, and tried to tell him a parable about lying using the metaphor of a little girl (His Mom). That was a crazy dream.
Some where I started running away or escaping but this little prickly rodent was chasing me. WTF.

I'm worried about my kids. They are now the ones getting f**cked over in this nitemare.
Just spent about an hour listening to them, hearing their concerns. They are so in the dark about what their mom has done. They really don't like the chaos that is living next door to us (wife's sisters family very dysfunctional as I've mentioned in these posts).
Their mom, my wife, seems to be so deluded. I kinda am getting most always just repulsed by her. She's just such a f**ck up.
Kids lock the door to keep SIL family, especially niece out of the house. They take our food, act and come and go as it's their house. Kids are concerned with those boundaries. Wife berates them for locking the door.
1 week. Freedom. Kids and I. Kid mentioned me locking mom out (Jul-Aug'06). Said mom said that I thought she was at a party and that's why I locked her out. So unfair to kid (Mom was out f**cking/around with dude).
I've not said a bad word about her to kids. Wife seems to be saying to kids that divorce will make everyone "happier". I'm starting to wonder if she's just nuts.
Kids saying that they have issue with SIL boyfriend and his, girlfriends, drinking, lack of responsibility etc. Same things that their mom has been doing. It feels so crushing, that they are also describing their mom's behaviors.
This just f**cking sux !!!
Please, thoughts?

Thank all of you for your posts. You've been tremendously helpful !!!
I'm starting to feel really disgusted now as I realize more and more how awfully this woman (my wife) has treated me. And our children.
All the deceit, all the lies, all the omission, the attitude, the disrespect, disdain, contempt, lack of empathy etc. It's really starting to gross me the f**ck out.
I'm starting to understand what you mean by her still "Wayward Wife" mentality. Her addiction.
I think I'm understanding that if it's not an affair, it's alcohol, or drugs, whatever. Or all.
We had passion twice since this mess. Both times after I performed at a club, she was drunk, it was secretive. Kinda like an affair. I've been f**cking played.
I want to puke. This f**cking sux.
Thanks again.

Your threads are hard to follow because they are all over the place.

How long have you been married? How long was the marriage happy? How old are your children?

How long have you been living next to your wife's family?

I'm having a day here. This is a rant/pity party/ambivalence. You are forewarned. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Talked to a mutual friend of WS and I about my sitch. I kinda get bothered when I feel that people don't seem to sense the gravity of what has happened. I feel that they make excuses when they say things like "You were growing apart", "You will be better apart", etc. Those things don't make me feel good.
It feels like that they don't hold the WS accountable for what has happened. I kinda would think a friend would take a 2x4 upside a WS's head. Maybe not.
Ambivalence
And after reading so much and so much counseling such statements kinda sound deluded, as not to "condemn" someone, to let bygones be bygones.
This sounds very non-solutions oriented, very unMB, etc.
That attitude seems to me, I feel, to be "unhealthy". It really bothers me.
This has been the most unbelievably terrible thing I've ever lived thru. To have it trivialized like that, in my opinion, seems to be just as foggy as the WS fog.
But, sometimes it makes since. But I feel it only makes sense if you negate things like, nobility, love, faithfulness, accountability, responsibility, honor, integrity, and so on and so on. All the things we're to aspire too.
Why can't I just except that attitude? To be, what I understand to be, in a "Fog".

------------

Talked to the counselor today. I really needed that. It's the roller coaster thing. I guess I just feel very violated after this betrayal, D and so many years with this woman.
Am I wrong to feel that? Am I the one that has been the f**ckup thru out this?
When I DB, MB etc. I don't feel like the f**ckup. But hearing from the "world" sometimes, or my wife, I do. Maybe it's the mind games that they play?
My WS nonchalant attitude just f**cking kills me.
I'm feeling pretty [censored] about this right now. Just a dip in the old roller coaster.
Sometimes I feel like I'm doing the right things, and sometime I don't. (But mostly I do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ).
Tomorrow will be another day.
Thoughts?
Thanks guys and gals.

believer

"Your threads are hard to follow because they are all over the place."

I agree. I've tried to keep content similar. Ooppss...

"How long have you been married? How long was the marriage happy?"

Married '98. Been living togethrt since '91. I guess "happy" maybe really not ever. Exceot very beginning. Indifferent though, yes. We've had some bad years. Some good. Learning DB, MB, etc. gave me hope to make it to "happy".

"How old are your children?"

12&8. DD

"How long have you been living next to your wife's family?"

2-years. Lived with G'ma and G'pa a few years total, twice.