Have you read HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS and/or SURVIVING AN AFFAIR?

Lost:

Let me guess.

His trailer is a complete pigsty.

AND he wants you to CLEAN THE HOUSE.

Typical wayward.

Yes.

There is a complete disconnect between the two activities. Understand that.

The house, no matter what, he wants to look nice. It is the public face of this family, and he wants it to look good. It's that Domestic Support need.

Plan A is about bowing down to him. AND expecting nothing in return.

IT's about creating a new YOU that is better than before, as well.

Through this process in plan A, you might determine that YOU don't want him.

That's your choice. HE certainly is making some.

However....

Domestic Support may be one of his top EN's, what do you think his others might be?

And start meeting them.

Domestic Support may be number 4 on his list, but because you where not having SF, and not meeting his admiration need, (Which may be higher on his list) he beats you up on it, because it is easier.

He admits to not enough SF? Means he's getting it from the OW now, so if he asks for it from you, he might have too.
He tells you that you do not admire him. (Of course not!, he's Wayward!) OW is.
Whatever EN number 3, is. Maybe taking care of the kids....?
Then we have #4, DS, and only you can meet that, and he can bet you up with it.

Never really mattered before, you where marginally meeting numbers 1-3 and then someone came along who was doing it better.

So, he beats you up on DS.

So start meeting those EN's, as you determine HE would rank them. Never minimize, and say "that isn't important" and then insert your own EN's in place of his.

Your post in response to Mimi's was somewhat defensive.

But Mimi tagged all the right bases for you.

That's what drove your defensiveness. That's why Plan A is about meeting his needs, without regard to him meeting yours.

And then you stop lovebusting, and the disrespectful judgements, and you knock out all the underpinnings and reasons he trys to give for the A.

And after that, you have a shot a getting your H back.

You meet his EN's, he is more likely to start to meet yours, after the affair has been broken.

And about this:

"I thought marriage was a partnership with both spouses being equal, not one having to change their whole being to suit the other. I thought that all this on MB was to get both spouses to make changes to create a happy & successful marriage. Have I got it all wrong?????"

IF you feel you have to CHANGE YOUR WHOLE BEING, then go directly to Plan D.

But if all you HAVE to do is clean the house, instead of SHOPPING, that isn't much, is it?

BTW: what was the financial sitch in the house prior to the A?

LG

I was YOU, Lost.

I NEGLECTED my H.

No doubt about it.

No excuse at all for him having an AFFAIR.

But what I did was wrong as far as I'm concerned.

So I am able to OWN what I did.

I'm so THANKFUL that I changed into the woman that I am today.

I take good care of my H and he takes good care of me.

What you are forgetting is that your H had an affair so you had LOST him. He was no longer IN LOVE with you. So NOW your job is to make him fall IN LOVE with you again..with ACTIONS demonstrating your LOVE for HIM.

I know it hurts to hear this but it is a reality that must be faced and to deny its truthfulness is not helpful IMO. LOVE IS A VERB according to the Harleys. Fill up that LOVE BANK and the LOVE begins to GROW once again.

It is all about you because you can only change and control YOURSELF. You cannot make him see it differently. You can only DEMONSTRATE to HIM your LOVE for HIM by meeting his PRIMARY EMOTIONAL NEEDS.

I'm not sure that you fully understand the PLANS or the CONCEPTS.

You cannot do REAL RECOVERY until after WITHDRAWAL..3 to 6 months of NO CONTACT with the OW. Until that time, he remains wayward in his thinking. Did he do a NC LETTER? Are you sure that there is NO CONTACT?

Your marriage is changed FOREVER. You have a marriage that has been damaged by an AFFAIR and needs to grow through and long and difficult HEALING process.

It has taken us 4 years of RECOVERY to be just about NORMAL again...

Just like LG says..working on this is not for everybody...YOUR CHOICE.

I want you to give yourself a chance though...

My feedback has been to help you get on the right track cause really..I HAVE DEFINITELY WALKED IN YOUR SHOES...

Married 31 years next week...

It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what your H thinks. But actually I like a clean house and that makes ME and MY FAMILY much HAPPIER.



Are you sure? Has he suddenly changed into wanting the house to be neater?



I don't understand this. You don't like him but you love him? You'be been just putting up with him but you love him? So what are you gonna do now? He's gonna be the same person..basically...



I am definitely not saying that this is acceptable. I encourage and support you speaking up for yourself and not allowing this to happen to you. I recommend for you to tell what it is about his communication style that you do not like and will not tolerate. This can be done calmly and assertively.



This is not the MBer's approach. This clues me in that you have not read up on PLAN A and the RECOVERY PROCESS.



Not ALL of it WRONG..but I think you need to understand it better...

Our financial sitch was this:

WH had a job he loved from '96-'99, in a brewery. When he started there, we had no house payment & no car payments over $200 a month (only 2 cars), utilities & no kid in college. We had money to burn & had lots of fun together. Lost that job due to plant closure, company sold out. He was very depressed & for years (only until just the last year & half) he dwelt on losing that job, i.e. I lost the best job I ever had, I'll never find another job as good as that one, and so forth.

When plant closed, he was given the chance to go to school to learn another trade, all expenses paid. He did in the a/c-refrigeration field. During that time, I held it all together. We had just bought a house 2 years before plant closing. He got a job with an a/c company doing installation & repair. Paychecks were about 40% less than they were. We struggled on & I kept things up as well as I could. He had never adjusted to the fact that he didn't make the same money as before. And I could never tell him no to anything he or the kids wanted. I never told any of them no, I just did without what I wanted & needed. It has caused me lots of pain & trouble. He changed jobs about 4 yrs ago. More money but still not what we had during that 3 yr period. House payments went up, insurance went up, kids started driving & needed cars & insurance, oldest DD started college, I had to have a new car. Bills kept piling up. I took out loans to cover our checkbook & his spending. If I said no to anything, he would blast me in front of anyone, friends, family, etc. saying I was holding him back. In all that time, I never told him the truth because the couple of times I tried, he blew his stack, climbed all over me & demanded to know where the money went. I tried to tell him but he didn't want to hear. In the mean time, he made 2 new friends that he spends alot of time with. One had unlimited money due to wife's inheritance. My WH won't admit he tries to keep up with the Joneses.

I worked during all this. I went back to work as soon as youngest DD started school. I was his biggest cheerleader & tried to keep his spirits up during the bad stuff. By the time the A started, we were behind on house payment, utilities, car insurance had been cancelled, etc. On the day he said he wanted to come home, I laid it all out on the table & told him he needed to understand our financial situation. He said he understood & was coming home because he loved me. 3 days later he said it was because of the money situation & he had to come bail me out because he felt like I would lose everything.

I'm still struggling. We now have separate accounts & he gripes about every penny I have to ask him for. This job he interviewed for is 3 hours away, will give him an $8 an hour raise & he will be back in the brewery business, doing what he loved. Looking back, I can see where losing that job caused a lot of problems. He hasn't been happy with himself or life since. I hope that if he gets this new job it will help. I have told him that if he stays here, I don't see us staying together because she will always be a threat.

We are slowly getting the finances straightened out. I am looking for a work from home job (not home based business) to make extra money. When my boss retires, I don't plan on working away from home anymore. It is funny to me that now that he has to pay most of the bills out of his account, he spends very little extra, whereas before he spent without asking, even on her.

Sorry the answers are so long. Just trying to explain the sitch here. There are days that I wish he were gone to that new job already so I would be away from him at least during the week. I will have to stay here until our house sells, & we already have it listed.

So there it is. Oh, BTW, he is almost OCD about cleaning. He does keep his camper clean but there is only him in it. When I stayed in it for a while, it was easier to keep clean if it was just me.

Can you tell me where to find this thread?? I would love to read it over.

Thanks!!

BTW, don't have the books yet but am trying to get them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> I'm a little low on funds right now.

Until you get the books, you can read a lot of the information on the Home page here. It has all of the basic concepts, plus all the infidelity information.

As Believer said, I encourage you to READ CAREFULLY the BASIC CONCEPTS, Q&A COLUMNS and ARTICLES that you can find on this site. To the right of where I am posting, I see MOST POPULAR LINKS. Just reading those will help you immensely.

Thanks for the info. I have printed all of the info mentioned. I just need to keep reading it.

Any suggestions on how to handle our 24th anniversary? It's coming up on Aug. 6. Should I mention it, plan something or wait to see what he says? Since he is still in withdrawal, I don't think it will be a good one.

It is so hard right now because he acts so unhappy. He has actually told me a few times that he would rather be with me & unhappy for the rest of his life than go through a divorce & lose his kids in the process. I just look at him when he says that. I have no idea what to say.

Say: "You will fall in love with me again"..."You loved me before, you can love me again"..

Then proceed on working on YOUR PLAN to make that happen..

Work on developing confidence in yourself that you can do this...

Immediately stop doing the stuff..LOVEBUSTERS..that get you off track from reaching your goal...

The financial strain is pulling us both apart. And on top of that, my WH has sunk into a deep depression & I can't get him to see it. Anyone have any ideas on how to wake him up to the depression???

Last night, I came home & wouldn't talk to him. Just didn't want to get into another fight. We finally started talking about 8pm when he came in the house after working outside. He just started talking to me. Told me he almost lost his job & he didn't even care. He told me he doesn't care about anything anymore. Sometimes he says he would be better off dead & wants to kill himself. He said that if he'd been fired, he'd have left & never came home, just kept driving, & I wouldn't have ever seen him again. He started getting argumentative & this time, when I caught myself starting to get angry & want to yell back, I stopped myself, backed up & calmed down. He sat down to eat & we talked some more. He mentioned that he had ruined one family (the OW's) so what was one more. I told him that if he ruined our family that was his choice & I was not responsible for his choices. We went into the living room & kept talking. I told him that he had come home for the wrong reason, our bills, & that he never had any intention of making things work. He told me that I made him not want to work it out & I reminded him that 3 days after he came home, he told me it was a mistake & he shouldn't have come back, all because he was frustrated about the electricity being out due to a storm. I told him that in that 3 days I didn't do anything to make him not want to work it out. He couldn't argue with that. I told him that he didn't love me or he would want to try. He said he loved me he just couldn't live with me. He says I will never let him forget the A & that I will always remind him of it. I told him that he hadn't let me forget because he continued contact with her. He says he has started NC now. He talked about leaving & I told him that I was not holding him here & that he needed to leave. His response "so you're kicking me out again." I looked at him & said "I can't make you love me again. I can't make you make the effort to work things out with me. I can't take responsibility for your choices, only mine. I can't make you change anything about you, only you can do that. I can only change myself & I work on that everyday. I'm not kicking you out because you can't be kicked out of somewhere you don't want to be. I'm asking you to leave to protect my heart & keep the love for you I have left." He looked at me, (unfortunately I was crying) I looked at him & turned around & left the room. I refused to talk to him anymore. I started a project in the dining room, he offered to help & I refused. When he walked by to go to the camper for bed, he looked at me & said Goodnight. I said Goodnight back & kept on with my stuff. He had said earlier that he had figured out the last few days that he should have never married, he should have stayed single because he always has a problem with something. I asked him to clarify & he said he always has a problem. I asked him if he WANTS to always have a problem, he said "what do you mean?" I said do you always want to have a problem with things? He said No, not really. I said "Then change it, you are the only one who can. I can't make you change anything about yourself."

I see the depression getting deeper every day. He was on Prozac & quit taking that shortly after I found out about the A. He has refused it ever since. I'm so afraid for him. I know that if the day ever comes that he can't hurt me anymore, it will truly be over. He keeps wanting me to file for the divorce but I don't think I should file for something I don't want. I want so much to help him but I don't know how to get him to see the depression is so much worse than it has ever been. If anyone has any ideas on how to open his eyes to that, please let me know. I need all the help I can get right now. I cringe every time the phone rings, afraid it will be someone telling me he is dead or dying.

Does anyone have an idea of what to do???

HELP!!!

I found at yesterday that NC apparently never happened. WH talked to her for almost 12 minutes on his company phone Friday. She calls & He calls back. I know he is lying about where he is & about working. He is deeply depressed. His co-worker tells me that he can tell when he has talked to OW because he acts different & funny. So I now know it is not just me seeing that.

Yesterday, he came home from the deer lease & went outside to work. He was hateful & mean when he got home. I went outside to ask him something about supper & he looked like he was sick. I asked what was wrong & he told me he thinks I am poisoning him. He said that for the last 2 wks he has had: a racing heartbeat, shaking hands, disorientation & wooziness, slight nausea, don't know where is he or what he's doing half the time. I asked why he didn't mention this to the doctor Monday & he said he didn't need to. I'm really worried about him. I think OW put the idea that I'm poisoning him in his head.

I am pretty sure that when he talks to her, based on what she has said in the past, that she is telling him that I am a terrible person & she would never do to him what I have done to him. They communicate via his company cell phone.

Should I tell his supervisor about the continued contact by company phone?

Since the OWH is dead, should I expose to her grown son that they are still having an A?

I think he is really going off the deep end, maybe having a nervous breakdown. I don't know what to do. I don't think I can have him committed. He gets angry when faced with the truth. His friends & co-workers are telling him that he treats me badly, so I know I'm not just making it up. He doesn't see anything wrong with what he does, says no one knows how to take him & he's just kidding when people think he isn't. Because of that frame of mind, he got mad last night when we were talking & stormed out of the house & was still mad this morning. He doesn't think he needs to change anything about himself, that people just need to learn how to take him.

Any thoughts & any suggestions to my questions??? I'm really at a loss here right now.

HELP!!!

Help, anyone???



Never mind, I am going to do this. I've gotten his mother involved also.

I'm doing this knowing that his mental state may be that once he finds out what I've done, he may never come back. He talked about killing himself again last night. I'm trying to hold on to the love I have left. He didn't used to say such hurtful things & says now he doesn't want to hurt me so I told him if he doesn't then stop.

I haven't told him that I know he has been in contact with OW.

Suggestions, comments, etc. on my PBL. All help is appreciated.

My dearest WH,

This is the hardest thing I've ever had to do.

Let me begin by saying I love you. I always have & you're the only man I've ever loved. I know you loved me once & could again.

I always thought our life was pretty good. We had some problems but we had lots of fun & good times together, camping trips, Niagara Falls, our first trip to Colorado & sitting on the porch at the end of the day. I've missed that in the last few months. And together we turned out two of the best daughters anyone could have. We have every right to be extremely proud of them. They are good kids!!

I know the role I played in causing you to look for someone else. I didn't make the choice for you but I realize now my mistakes that made you make that choice. I didn't do it intentionally & I'm sorry for my part in this whole mess. I've realized the last few months how important you are to me & I don't want to let you go.

I know that we could have a better marriage than we did before. I see the changes I need to make & I'm working on those changes every day. I want things to be better than ever & to be your best friend again. I want to hold you while we sleep. I want to be able to touch you whenever I want to. I know that if we work together we can achieve this goal. We can learn to meet each other's needs so we can both be happy & never need anyone else in our lives. So we can grow old together & enjoy our future grandchildren.

I hate that I have to make this decision but I can't let you destroy my heart & my love for you. You say you don't want to hurt me, but you continue to do so. The pain is too much to handle right now. I want to protect my feelings if you ever decide we can make a go of it. I want that more than anything. I want a good life with you. I can't be your friend because I want you for my husband, my lover, my everything. I've tried hard to stay connected to you & a few of the times we spent together, I felt that connection. We are different now because of all that's happened. But seeing you every day, hearing your voice & knowing you are here causes me much pain.

Being apart from you is hard but for now is the right things to do. The only way we can ever see or talk to each other again is if you end it with OW forever & never have contact with her in any way, shape, form or fashion again. I always knew that you never did, that you still talked to her every chance you got. If you ever do that, we can start again & build a better life together. I pray every day for that chance.

I write this letter with a pain so deep & so great that I can't breathe. This is not what I want & never did. But for now I need it. There is to be no contact of any kind between us. No calls, no voicemail, no text messages. Since the kids are grown, your time with them is unlimited. You don't need my permission to see them, all you have to do is call them. I don't want to hear from you until you have ended it with OW & have made the commitment to building a better life with me.

I love you, I've always loved you. I want a life with you. I'm not sure you will ever know how much this is tearing me apart. Building a better life with you is measured at first in hours, then days, weeks & years. I want to try. I know what I need to do & that we need a plan to build from. Just like a blueprint is needed to build a great house, so also is needed to build a great marriage. I'm ready to draw that blueprint with you.

All my love,
R

IMO, it is not time for PLAN B for you.

PLAN B is not effective without a good PLAN A.

We need to hear about your PLAN A first.

I have been doing Plan A since he came home in February, when he moved out in March & came back home in May. I have been doing all I can to meet his EN & believe me, he has not met any of mine. He is so fogged up, he never sees anything I do. But he will B**** about what I haven't done no matter how insignificant it is. The house can be clean & he will gripe about the 2 or 3 dirty dishes in the sink left from someone eating before I got home. I have tried & usually succeed in not fighting with him. I tried to be sympathetic when he told me she was threatening suicide. If he really wanted to leave, he could & would have a place to go, she would gladly have him. At this point, living with her might be a good thing because he would see how she really is.

I need to do Plan B because he WILL NOT quit communicating with OW. He tried for a couple of weeks & when she threatened suicide, he calls her whenever she calls him. I know this from checking his company phone. He is afraid she will do it & he will have another suicide on his conscience. I called his boss yesterday & he said he will do what he can to stop her from calling. She called him yesterday morning at 5:30 a.m. just after he got to work. He answers because he is afraid not to. I know by the way he acts that he has talked to her. His co-workers know by the way he acts that he has talked to her. He tells them he is talking to me when he is talking to her. Instead of coming out of the fog, he is going deeper into it. There is no hope as long as this continues.

I can't keep doing Plan A as long as this goes on. It is doing me no good because she is filling his head with lies & telling him what he wants to hear. When he talks to her, he tells me it will never work out between us.

I'm sorry, I just can't do it anymore. Knowing NC has not been established is undermining any possibility of R. He will refuse to give us a chance as long as she is still in the picture. If he was doing all the calling, it would be different. But she always calls first & if he misses it & gets a VM he calls her back. I could Plan A till doomsday & it won't make any difference. She takes any problem we have, tells him she would never do that to him & that if I truly loved him, I would never have done it. I know because she has told him this in the past.

My heart can't take anymore pain. It hurts so bad now I can't breathe most of the time. I can't get her out of my life. And it looks like my hope of this job in another city is not going to happen & he refuses to move unless he gets this job. He may get fired after my phone call to his boss yesterday. Right now, I don't care.

I feel I am hurt beyond endurance. I'm not sure how Plan B will work if he won't leave. But maybe since everything is working in the camper, he can stay there & just not come in the house. I just know that to protect myself, I have to cut off contact with him, no matter how much it hurts. He still does not see what is right in front of him.

I will continue with the changes I have made & keep improving on them. I will continue to do things for myself. I will keep trying to be happy without him. It's all I can do at this point.

A quick update.

Got em today about new job, it's still a possibility & should know something in about 2 weeks.

I am not going to Plan B immediately. I want to get my letter set in my mind & feedback from everyone on it before I really write it. If this job comes thru, Plan B goes in effect as soon as he moves to this other city.

My step-MIL & my boss' wife (who is almost like family) think calling his boss about her continued calls was not a good idea, that it could get him fired. I don't think it will but I have to take that chance. I can't stop contact at work otherwise.

I'm just trying to get things laid out in a row before I actually go thru with it. Getting feedback from everyone here seems to be the way to go before sending anything to him. I want it to sound right & say the right things.

Thanks for any help!!

I really recommend for you to invest in and to read SURVIVING AN AFFAIR before going into PLAN B.

I do not think you have a good understanding of the MB PLANS.

It does not seem that you have done an effective PLAN A.

Just recently you were defensive with us about your housecleaning and reported arguing with him.

It's best to end PLAN A on a GOOD NOTE where you have clearly demonstrated to him your PLAN A CHANGES...not just meeting his needs..how have YOU ACTUALLY CHANGED to be the BEST WIFE possible?

I really, really don't think you can do Plan B with him still in the house, or in the camper.

And if you're not in Plan B, then you have to be in Plan A. And Plan A does not include ignoring, refusing to talk, or arguing with him. Even the modified Plan A. You can keep your interactions with him to a minimum, but when you do interact, you have to show him a reason to come home. You can't reason it into him, or convince him or talk him into it .... you **show** him how good it is.

The "reality bringing" part is supposed to be quick, dropped quickly, and not your problem -- just a quick little needle into that baloon, then go about your own thing. It's not supposed to be big long discussions (that was one of the things I had to learn how to stop doing, too ... getting into the big long debates and discussions. Those don't help, you can't reason with a WS.)

I've been there, it's hard, and sometimes it really sucks. But it's possible.

But I agree with mimi -- you need to show him a reason to come home, and maybe we just don't have all the details, but it doesn't sound like you've done that yet. You're trying to reason with him and make him agree with you about the right thing to do -- which I think is a natural tendency for anyone. The point of Plan A is to SHOW him a reason to make that choice on his own. Not because he was talked into it, but because he sees how much better it could really be.

They are still in contact with each other. When he talks to her, he comes home to me, looks for a reason to tell me it won't ever work out, that he doesn't see me in his future, that he will never accept me the way I am now, too late to change because he can't live with me. And all that is after I have said hello, how was your day. He really thinks I believe he is still NC with her. He tells me she is not in this anymore. I get compared to everyone in the world & now he wants to cut off my outside support (friends, family, etc.). Since they all want me to divorce him, you'd think he'd want me to hang with them to help convince me they are right.

It's time to let go. I have had a separation agreement drawn up & I hope he will sign it tonight. I don't try to reason with him to stay, he tries to reason with me to let him go. But I'm not keeping him here. With his state of mind, & he is deeply depressed, living with him is a nightmare & our DD#2 just wants him gone. Both DD's just want him to leave until he gets his head on straight. They are tired of running around in circles.

I had filed for divorce in February. But I dismissed it because it was not what I wanted. Why should I divorce him when he is the one who wants out? He holds that over my head, the fact I stopped it. I don't feel comfortable around the friends we used to do things with because he has gone out of his way to tell me how much they hate me. And he blames me because his family is upset with him.

I just need some peace. The day to day turmoil is pulling me down to where even my AD med is not helping. Exposure has not helped that I can tell, he doesn't care who knows.

If he were gone away from the house, I could Plan A better for me, be able to do what I need to do without the constant criticism & sarcasm.

Last year, one time, I got down on my knees, after hearing him tell her he loved her on the phone, & begged him to go to her & leave me alone, let me learn to live without him & know that I would be happy knowing he is happy with someone else. Even that didn't work. Now that her BH is dead, you'd think he would have left me right then.

I'm sorry, but seeing him every day, knowing he is talking to & seeing her is too much to handle right now. Especially since he truly believes I don't know about it.