Yes, housework, since that is all I have to do right now. DD#2 has a boyfriend & a job & has no time for her old mom. DD#1 wants to go to trades day with me this weekend so we just might go. He is supposed to go fishing with friends & be gone all weekend. I hope so.

Talked to one of his co-workers at lunch. He is telling everybody he has no cell phone, that he threw the personal one away & work has not replaced the one he destroyed. But that person was standing next to WH's car & saw the phone on the charger in the seat. It's turned off but he hasn't gotten rid of it like he tells everybody. Who knows!!

I went home at lunch, folded his clothes that I washed & dried, put them in the basket with the other clean stuff & the satellite box & set them in the door of the camper. He is coming home to shower & then go eat with his mother. I wish I could be a fly on the wall when he sees that letter taped to the door & that basket of stuff <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />!!!

Not a bad letter, I was very agreeable & accomodating, Thank yew!! I was right proud of myself. Not one ugly or sarcastic word.

My MIL says I will hurt him more by ignoring him cuz he will start to think I really don't care anymore. She says it will eat on him big time, that it always has. Like you, she says to just leave him alone for now. And I will though it will be hard. I really miss him. But on with my life.

In the beginning of changing my housekeeping skills, I cleaned at night because I couldn't stand to go to bed & not sleep. Back in that same boat now & I'm back listening to my hypnosis CD. I turn it on as I'm going to sleep. I was skeptical at first, but it really does work for me. I notice a real desire to clean the next day. Plus I am doing the 5 minute thing in each room & it seems to be helping.

Thanks for the encouragement!!!! Please keep it coming.
And any more comments or suggestions to my Plan A are very, very welcome.

What kind of letter did you leave for him?

I'm sure that your MIL is well intentioned, but ignoring him and trying to find the best way to hurt him are generally not Plan A strategies.

The letter said this:

I was being utterly ridiculous yesterday. Yes, I will wash your clothes. I have put the basket out of our room by the back door so put your dirty clothes there & I will wash & dry them. I have put your clean clothes just inside here.

I have taken the satellite box out of Reina's room (she is ok with it) so you can watch TV. The wire to her room is hanging on the phone box outside so hook up the cable in the camper & you will have TV.

If you need anything from the grocery store, write it down & leave it on the bar or in the basket by the door & I will pick it up for you.

I will continue to leave the doors unlocked so you can use the bathroom. It's only fair since you can't dump the camper tank & I was allowed to do it when I lived out there. You can open the shower tank valve & run it on the ground. No harm there.

I'm sorry you are turning the job at Miller down because of me. I wanted you to have the job because it's what you love to do & would have been a great opportunity for you with great benefits. If you should change your mind, go & have a good life. I won't be going with you because I know when I'm not wanted.



She mainly meant for me to leave him alone for now & not talk about anything except general stuff. Not totally ignoring him but just not saying anything to him about us or OW or the job offer.

I talked to her this a.m. after he had supper with her last night. She said he left her in a good mood but when he asked to talk to me last night, he was really down on himself, saying he didn't deserve TV, would never have anyone else, etc. I just let it go. She did say that he mentioned he had smashed both phones in case I ever said anything about phone calls so I wouldn't look through his phone. I'm not going to even though the urge is strong because I want to know if she has tried to contact him since Tuesday night. I promise I won't ask or look. I did ask him how his day went & he said bad. I said that bad, huh & he said you have no idea, so she may have left him voicemail. I didn't ask anything else after his last comment. His mother said he didn't tell her about the OW but did bring up her H suicide. "Mom" told him that life was all about choices & that he was not responsible for the choices that man made, he put the bullet in the gun & put the gun to his head & pulled the trigger, not my WH. She told my WH he didn't make her H do what he did, that if anyone was responsible it was her because of the choices she made. I hope he listened.

For now, I'm just leaving him alone, doing Plan A, being as pleasant as possible & working on me.

One thing, though, our 24th anniversary is Monday. How should I handle that? Should I wait & see if he brings it up or should I say something? I really need suggestions on that right now.

Thanks for the help.

Also another question.

Why is he cutting people out of my life?

He is actually calling people & telling them not to talk to me anymore. And he was very ugly when he told me I would never hear from stepMIL again. I asked if he had called her & he would only say I would never hear from her again. And she won't answer my calls or my emails. I feel like he is trying to take my support group away from me. He has gotten angry at & with anyone who talks to me. Is this normal???

Ok, here's what I think .... and it's just my opinion, I would NOT consider myself to have as much expertise as most of thepeople here, I just really empathize with your sitch because of my awkward attempts at trying to figure out Plan A/B in house, etc.

You REALLY need a GOOD plan A, and you need to get the good Plan A experts to help you walk through it ..... maybe changing your thread title again to call them out would help. You also really, really need need to read the book and all the articles on the website that are related. IMO, it seems like you're back-and-forth in your own mind about what Plan A means and how to do it, and I think you end up undermining your own efforts.

For example .... your letter was fine, until you got to the point of "go & have a good life. I won't be going with you because I know when I'm not wanted." Your consistent message needs to be about saving the M, not telling him to leave. And the whole "know when I'm not wanted" thing was not even a well disgused attempt at a guilt trip. That one sentence pretty much undermined your whole message.

There's a post about being the lighthouse somewhere around here .... see if you can find that post. You need to figure out how to be a better alternative for him. Make it worth it for him to go through the "pain" of giving up OW.

That doesn't mean you lay down and let him do whatever he wants. You still have boundaries, etc. You still tell him that you can have a great M, but you won't accept a third person in your M. But that's not lecturing, it's not every minute of every day ... you need to show him that there's more to you and your relationship than OW and the A. That there are good things to come back for. Remind him of that.

As for the anniversary .... we had an anniversary while things were going really badly. We went to lunch that day, I gave him a small picture album that had pictures of times that we were really, really happy -- mostly just he and I pictures, but also a few family pictures. It also had some notes in it that he'd written to me about being a good wife and how much he loved me.

That might be a thought for you?

I see now that was a bad move but I was hoping if I said that it would give him the ok to go ahead & take the job, a way of letting him know I wanted to job for him since he said he wouldn't go because I wanted him to. Sad to say, but I really want him to go, with or without me because it would be a job doing something he loves.

At this point, with him telling people not to talk to me anymore, I don't know what to do other than keep to my Plan A & try to deal with the pain, which seems to get worse every day.



I gave him cards when this first started that said things like that. He told me I had killed that love & refused to read or look at them. Should I ask him to lunch or dinner or wait & let him ask first??

Here's the start of my Plan A.

[color:"purple"]So here's my Plan A.

I will wash his clothes. I have set a basket by the back door of the house for him to put his dirty clothes in. I have taken the satellite box out of DD#2's room so he can hook it up to the camper & be able to watch TV. I even pulled the wire out of the outside wall for him to hook up to. I won't talk to him unless absolutely necessary, we can communicate by notes since he won't come in the house. I don't know if he still has his personal cell, he destroyed his company cell with a hammer Tuesday night. I will let him know that if he needs anything at the grocery store, write it down & put it in the basket by the back door. I will smile & be pleasant when I see him. I will not argue with him about anything. I have been reminded that when his temper flares, he says one thing & does the opposite when he cools down. [/color]

Any suggestions to make it better?? I'm doing the flylady.com thing to help with my housework. I am posting on the EN post about one thing he says I didn't meet.

You are on the right track. Continue working on getting the house in shape. Doing his clothes is good. I would be cooking his favorite things. Also invite him to go places with you that he would enjoy. If he refuses, go alone and have a good time. Take some pictures to share with him later.

See if you can ask his help in something. Many men enjoy being asked for help. Then give him lots of admiration. It might feel phoney at first, but Plan A often is faking it until you make it.

UPDATE!! UPDATE!! UPDATE!!!

HALLELUJAH!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think the fog has lifted!!!

It all started Saturday, well probably Friday but it came up on Saturday.

I got up that morning at 6:15 a.m. to get the kitchen really cleaned up & pick up the house before I left. As I was leaving, I left a note on the camper door for WH about his clothes. I didn't know he was awake & didn't want to wake him. He came out, ripped the note off, told me not to leave anymore ***** notes. I told him I wanted to talk to him & he walked over to the car. I explained about the note & then he started ranting, raving & cussing. I calmly told him I didn't know why he was angry with me but I would not talk to him as long as he kept that up. He APOLOGIZED & said he wasn't angry at me. He asked what I wanted & started yelling again. Again I told him I wouldn't talk to him while he was like that, that I was leaving & I would talk to him when I got back if he was in a better frame of mind. He calmed down.

I told him that I noticed he had gotten very upset over me asking the realtor to put a sign in the yard, that I did so because he seemed in a hurry to get rid of me & the house so I was trying to get that done as soon as possible. He told me he didn't want to get rid of me or anything else around there. I said OK & he said "We need to figure out a way to work this thing out, to make it work." I said ok, I'm willing. Our DD#2 came out & we started talking again as soon as she went back inside. I told him I wanted to work it out more than anything, that I was willing to do whatever to make things better. He wouldn't look at me. I told him I still love you & he said I know you do. I told him my biggest battle right now was I didn't know if he loved me or not. He said I guess I must because I can't let you go.

I left & while I was gone, out of the blue, he called to tell me he was smoking a brisket for Sunday. He was taking it to our deer lease (where the smoker is) to put it on, coming back to the house to finish up & returning there for the night to finish cooking. I said ok.

When I got home, he pulled in about 30 minutes after me. I asked if any of the other guys would be at the deer lease & he said just him. I asked if I could go & he said, very friendly, well sure, if you want to go, come on, I don't know what you think you can do, but come on anyway. I said ok, we can watch those movies we have & I started getting things ready. He informed me that the puppers needed a bath for them to go & I told him I had given them one that morning. We left about 7 or 8 p.m. (our deer camp is only 8 miles from home), got to the cabin, unloaded everything & settled in. My WH grilled pork chops for supper & then we watched a movie. We went to bed & he even got up Sunday morning & walked the dogs so I could sleep in.

We went into town for breakfast, came back, loaded up dogs & lawnmower, mowed his food plot & came home. As we were leaving the camp, he told me he had noticed how nicely I had cleaned the kitchen & house up & how much he appreciated it (thanks flylady.com), that he could tell I was really trying. He said he didn't know how things would work out but he was trying also.

Oh, BTW. Saturday night he told me he was going back on his prozac & I asked why. He told me he had a problem & I asked what kind of problem. He told me that Friday at work, he started crying for no reason at all & did it again on Saturday while working in the yard. He said that told him he had a problem. He is also going to the doctor for a complete physical & blood work-up.

We discussed the job in Ft. Worth, what it meant to us & to him, what he & I each expected & wanted to happen, etc. He said sometimes he wanted to work it out & sometimes he didn't. I asked how about today. We both laughed & he said today he guessed he did.

We talked about him moving back in the house. I told him I wanted him there & he said no you don't because you keep kicking me out. I told him I only ask him to leave when he tells me he doesn't want to be there. I told him I really wanted him in the house & I promised not to kick him out anymore.

On Friday, he mentioned to a co-worker that Monday was our anniversary & he didn't know if we would celebrate or not. So yesterday, as he left for work, he told me for what it's worth, Happy Anniversary. I thanked him & wished him a Happy Anniversary also. When I got home yesterday, he was asleep on the couch so I left him alone til he woke up. He wanted to take me out but had come home sick so we are going out tonight.

While he was sleeping, his co-worker called to tell me what happened at work yesterday. He said my WH told him that he really needed to find a way to work things out with me, to start making things up to me for his actions & that he was going to do something for me for our anniversary. The OW's best friend, who still works with my WH, tried to give him a message from the OW. In front of everybody, he told her he didn't want to hear anything from or about her, he didn't want her name mentioned to him again & that if anyone talked to her to tell her to get lost. The co-worker that called me, told me about this & also told me that the OW had contacted him wanting him to give my WH her new phone number, which I think she had changed because I called her Tuesday night. He told her he would not give it to my WH because my WH didn't want to talk to her.

Last night, my WH asked me if I would take his phone to Alltel & get his number changed. I asked why, he said because he didn't want people calling him & wanted to give it to certain people only. I asked if he was getting unwanted calls (we have been getting sales calls on our cells, too) & he said no but he wanted to make sure he didn't get any either. We agreed to change it but only after he heard about the new job.

He was affectionate with me last night, also. And, at bedtime, because I asked him to for our anniversary, he slept with me in our bed. He told me he didn't want to until he knew I wouldn't kick him out again so I used the anniversary thing. After we got in bed, I told him that I would make him a deal, I won't kick him out if he won't threaten to leave anymore. He was quiet for a moment, then said, neither of us knows what is going to happen. I didn't answer back, just went to sleep.

I think we may be on the downhill side of the A now. He is making effort & he is noticing my effort. I am cautiously optimistic right now, but the past three days have really felt good!!! Maybe my exposing to his mother & her talking to him Thursday night, though she didn't tell him she had talked to me, has helped him see the light. I hope so!!!

Sorry this is so long. Just wanted to let ya'll know how my weekend went.

That is such good news! Now keep doing what you have been doing, and don't let your hopes get too high. This is a long process, and there will still be some downs. The BS does most of the work and heavy lifting at the beginning of recovery. But it does sound promising. Good job going to the deer camp. It is very important to try to spend 15 hours a week doing fun things together.

Help!!!
I need some support!!
We went out for our anniversary on Tuesday, 8-7, because he was sick on 8-6, our day. He was a little affectionate on our day. We went out to eat & had a pleasant time just talking. Today, I found out he called her, first from his phone & when he couldn't get through, from work. Why??? Because he heard she was having a hard time, not eating, down on herself, looking really bad, not sleeping or doing anything. SO WHAT!!! I thought it but didn't say it. He has been acting different the last two days, doesn't want me to touch or kiss him, doesn't care if I'm there or not.

Please tell me this is part of withdrawal, which has now started all over again. I really need hugs today because I am feeling a little defeated. I am really putting all I have into plan a, have been doing better about the house cleaning, (thanks to flylady.com <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) I am trying so hard. I know I will be pulling most of the load for now. When we talked about his call to her today, he asked me how long I was gonna hang on. I told him I didn't know, but at least until he got to the point of not wanting to see or talk to her anymore. He told me he wishes he would get the job in Ft. Worth so he would be away from both of us for 6 months. I told him I wished the same. He says he doesn't know he would want the OW to come up to visit but he doesn't know he wouldn't either. And he doesn't know he would want or not want me there either.

I know this is all to be expected. I just need a little sympathy. I can't call my step MIL because he has cut off my contact with her. Just want to know someone else has been through this & how they got through it.

Thanks!

Sorry about that last post. I guess I just needed a little whine time & to vent to someone other than him. At that point, I was feeling like "OK, you made your choice, we will just try to get along until the house is sold & the divorce is filed & final. You say you don't love her but you won't leave her alone so you can get over her & she can go after someone else. You say you don't know if you love me but you don't want to let me go. Some days you want it to work, some days you don't." I didn't say any of this to him but I sure felt it & was thinking it. I did tell him that since he doesn't want me touching him, I won't unless he indicates he wants me to, or touches me first. He said he was ok with that.

This morning, I didn't get up with him. I did tell him goodbye, have a good day & he said he wasn't leaving yet. So when he said "I'll see ya this evening." I told him "Bye, be careful." & he said ok. Almost acted like it bothered him for me to stay in bed til he left but not sure.

I guess I still need to vent. My stepMIL told me I should vent to anyone but him. That's why I called her so much, because she wanted me to rant & rave with her rather than at him. I am really doing better about not arguing with him. A couple of times over the weekend, he got argumentative & I just told him plain & simple, I will not argue with you, I'm not in the mood to argue with you & said no more. It did stop the potential fight.

He tells me he doesn't love the OW, but he still can't see that every time he calls her, it makes her think he does love her & will come back to her. I know how she thinks, I have thought the same things. I know it is useless for me to try to make him see that. He certainly isn't going to listen to me. And he tells me friends & co-workers say the same, but he doesn't listen to them either. All part of the fog. I wish that his knowing & admitting he doesn't love her would permanently lift the fog. He admitted to me again last night that he needs to get over wanting to see her & talk to her. I reminded him that calling her would not accomplish that, not that he heard me. He has admitted that to me numerous times over the last 7 or 8 months but doesn't stop.

I am continuing with my own thing. Working on myself & making a life for myself. I keep trying to do nice things for him, show my concern for him which BTW he has an appointment with a new dr. on the 24th & changed his appointment so I could go with him. He has told me that he doesn't ever want me to come to his job anymore because of all that has happened, that it's just at this job & not any future jobs. I used to go eat lunch with him on my days off & I really miss that. I am trying to stay pleasant with him but it's so hard sometimes when I know his mind is on her. I AM more conscious of my tone of voice when I talk with him. I have done things to make the house look nicer, i.e. new couch cover, new bedspread, new throw pillows, keeping the kitchen clutter free, things like that. I'll admit it makes me feel better, too.

He told me last night he is still angry with me over the financial thing. I told him I knew he was, that I had made mistakes that I was trying to rectify. He thinks we are the only ones with financial problems & can't save any money. I asked him if he has asked these people he named as not having a hard time, any personal questions about their financial situation. He admitted he hadn't. I told him he doesn't know how hard someone else has it & that we have one friend who we both know is having a hard time financially. He tried to tell me everything was his fault, that I had done no wrong. I told him he wasn't completely at fault, that he had made the decision to cheat but that I had contributed equally to the problems in our marriage, but I wanted to make things right now that I know a better way to do things. He also told me that he doesn't think he can love anyone right now because he is trying to love himself. I let him know that I understood, that everyone has to love themselves & had finally learned how to do that for myself.

Sorry this is so long. Thanks for letting me get this off my heart & mind. For some reason, typing all this out seems to drain the hurt feeling away right out through my fingertips, LOL.

Thanks again for letting me vent.

Just want to say thanks to this list of people:

maybe2late, graplin, believer, mimi_here, lousygolfer, AmIok, princessmeggy & Mark1852.

I can't tell you in words how much your answers have meant & still mean to me. I go back & read them often. I do want everyone to know that I hear & understand what ya'll are saying. Thanks for the 2X4's, I need them sometimes. I do try to do what ya'll suggest, but because I sometimes see things through my fog of hurt, I don't always do as well as I should. Doesn't mean I don't need a bop on the head now & then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />!!

I read posts here as often as I can though I don't always post myself. I appreciate any answers to my posts from anyone who wants to answer.

I keep telling myself that this is not my DH but some alien I woke up with one day. When he says he worries about OW & not me because he is with me, it makes me feel like I don't matter. I try not to let anyone see that. I have been caught in this whirlpool since October '06. I know it can take much longer than that. I think now is the time for an alternate Plan A since he is still at home.

Thanks to the Harleys for giving me a place to vent, to talk to others who hurt like I do, to the ones who tell me their stories & a plan to get it all back together.

Thank you!! Thank you!! Thank you!!! everyone!!

I don't know about the timing ... I think you need to keep working on a really GOOD Plan A, first. I told you about that alternate Plan A because it is not as bad as trying to Plan B when you're still living together.

But here's what it seems like to me, with the limited amount of information that I've read (and again, I'm not one of the pros, so hopefully there will be some input from the other people you've listed....): I think that your WH is starting to try to get his feet back on your side of the fence ... he definitely still has a long way to go, but, to me, it looks like he's trying to figure out how to get his world back into some kind of rightness.

The problem I see is that you seem to be pushing him right back onto the fence everytime he tries to venture a toe down to test the waters on your side.

In my opinion, Plan B -- and even the modified Plan A -- are last-ditch options. And it can really only be effective AFTER you have done a STELLAR Plan A. There needs to be something that he will miss during that dark Plan B time.

So, I don't think it's time for Plan B .... it's time for a really good, really effective Plan A.

(Here's my caveat -- You need the experts to weigh in because I am not the best judge of when it's time to go to Plan B. I never got into a successful Plan B, and I think that contributed to the first several months of our recovery process being bitterly painful and difficult. Plan B offers a definite line, that a WS has to really fully commit to crossing and agree to the requirements before they can come back from 'the dark side'. So, I imagine it probably offers a better foundation for starting recovery, where my H and I sort of drifted back and forth in and out of that mucky gray line of are we recovering or not, are we committed or not, are we even going to try to fix this or not.)



As for your Plan A .....

You seem to be really up and down, really reactive to him. Your plan, your feelings, your actions depend on what he's said or done at the time.

Here's something that you need to know .... WS's will be rollercoasters, act erratically, sometimes be jerks, sometimes "not know what they want" -- whatever. My H told me just the other day that during his A, he was trying to do everything he could to make me give him a good reason to leave. Make me prove what a witch I was so that it would justify his behavior. That's what WS's do.

When you react and let him and his jerk-ness get you all wound up -- when you "punish" him by not touching, not getting up with him, then you're helping him accomplish that goal of justifying his A.


Your Plan A needs to consist of showing him that you can and will and do meet his needs (do you know what his top needs are?), that you are a great wife, that you can have a great marriage. That you are a great catch, and that you want him. Regardless of what he does or says to try to make you prove otherwise.

You do that by focusing on meeting his needs. You seem to have a start on that with the house. Good job. Maybe domestic support is one of his needs -- so do you think that includes getting up with him in the mornings? If it does, then do it! You aren't here to show him that you can be the more stubborn one -- you need to show him that you are a great wife, regardless of his "confusion". What are his other needs? Admiration? Affection? It sounds like the finances are a problem -- what can you do to help correct that? Instead of arguing with him and telling him it's not a big deal, other people also have financial problems -- what if you could make this into an opportunity to be a team again, coming up with ways to solve the financial problems? Get creative -- call the "cash in the attic" people to sell off some of your antiques, or just clean out the attic yourself and have a garage sale, look into assistance programs (I just saw that question mark guy on an infomercial last night), get a paper routs that you do before work in the mornings, sell the camper (that's a double-win, there, because then he has to move into the house). You can come up with lots of things.

And
"You're right, honey, the financial situation is really upsetting and life wold be much better for us if we could figure out a way out of it. Maybe we can put our heads together and come up with some good idea that we can both get excited about. We've always been such a good team when we work together."
sounds much beter than
"I KNOW we have financial problems, but the Smiths have it worse than us, and who knows, I bet half the town is worse off than we are."

You need to be looking for oportunities to team up, to partner, to be an asset, to be a great wife, to show him how great it is here in your home. That's much more Plan A than proving to him that you don't have to get up with him, or that what he's worried about is not a big deal .... or whatver.


Does that make sense?


Now, Plan A does not mean being a doormat.
You definitely can be honest and genuine and let him know when you're hurting, and definitely get some boundaries in place.

Somewhere there is a post about things you can and should say to a WS in Plan A.... It was nice and succinct and effective, Pep or Noodle style, so I'd look at thier stuff to find it (they say it much better than my lame attempt at paraphrasing). One of them was to look him right in the eye and tell him that everytime he has contact with her, every ounce of pleasure it brings him, it brings a thousand times more pain right into the heart of you and all the people who love him and believe in him.

Then walk away. It's not an argument, you don't have to make him understand that it's not ok to have contact -- you just let him know what the effects are.


I really think that you've got to get all this Plan A stuff down, and going well, before you can have an effective Plan B.

Have you read SAA and His Needs Her Needs yet?

-AmI.

mIok,



I agree with you. I don't want to Plan B unless he moves for this other job & then he is the one saying NC with me if it happens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> I'm trying for a good Plan A. I'm trying to figure out his needs because he won't tell me & doing my best to meet the ones I have figured out.



I try to vent here rather than say anything to him because I'm an emotional person & sometimes react even when I know I shouldn't, like I just can't stop myself.



I wasn't trying to punish him. He kept telling me every time I touched him to stop, leave him alone, I don't want you around me, etc. He told me he didn't want me kissing him any time & he didn't want to kiss me ever. I haven't asked for kisses from him but did try to kiss him each morning. He has told me he doesn't want that & to stop.





Don't know about this one for sure. Today I got up with him. He said "I don't know why you get up so early, I wouldn't if I didn't have to." My reply "I like getting up this early because I have time to read my paper, have my breakfast without being in a hurry, do a load of laundry, pick up around the house before I go to work." I was in the kitchen when he left. He said goodbye, I said goodbye, be careful. He paused like he wanted something more & I turned to him to see what he wanted. He just walked away before I could get close to him to kiss him 'bye. That's why I'm so confused. I don't know what to do from day to day.



Yes the finances are a problem. I am doing everything I can (trying to get the house re-financed for a lower rate, cutting back on everything possible) & he keeps telling me that this person or that person doesn't have the problems we have, they can save money, etc. I don't mean to make is sound like no big deal. I just keep trying to tell him that we are gradually working our way out of this hole, that things are getting better even if he doesn't see it yet. I have been doing that our entire marriage. Being his cheerleader. He has always been very pessimistic about everything. Never seems to see the bright side of anything. I sometimes feel like I've been holding him up forever. No matter how much something is worrying me, I never bring it up because he gets all bent out of shape. So instead, I keep cheering him up, telling him it's gonna get better that it's not always as bad as it looks. I've been doing that with my whole family for 24 years now, & I'm not complaining, just stating the facts. It's not something I have a problem doing because it's in my nature to be that way.

I talked to him yesterday by phone. I seem to be able to talk to him that way & be in better control of my emotions since we are not face to face. And he seems to listen better that way. I told him I was not mad about the broken NC, only hurt & disappointed that he broke his promise. He told me he was disappointed in himself for calling her. I mentioned that any woman who had been told by a man that if anyone ever told her he didn't love her to not believe them because they were lying, then broke it off with her but kept calling her, would think he still loved her & was coming back to her. I told him I would & had thought that same thing. I told him that I know I can't demand or keep him from calling or even seeing her, but I was asking him to have NC with her in any way, shape, form or fashion so that we could start re-building our lives. I also told him I was not going back to the person I was, that I liked the way I am better now & don't want to go back to fighting all the time & I like the way I'm doing with the house. That those changes were not for him but for me, to make me happy. He could choose to accept those changes or not, either way, I am not going back to the way I used to be.

I told him that whether he believed it or not, I have forgiven him, that he & I are only human & make mistakes. I told him I can see now the mistakes I have made in the past & I don't want to keep repeating them. I want to stop them & do things a new & better way.



He has moved back into the house. Even slept with me last night in spite of all that has been said about the NC being broken. I told him I don't want him to move out anymore & I won't ask him to leave, that if he leaves it will be his choice & not mine. I don't want to sell the camper because that is one of the things we enjoy doing together. As long as he has the job he has now, we have free camping privileges at the Recreational Park for employees on the lake. It's one of those things that the Harleys recommend, doing things we both enjoy doing together. I have been looking for part-time work & hopefully I will get a second job soon. He knows I am doing that, even though I would like a job I can do from home in the evenings. I feel that a job that takes me away from home right now would not be good for us. We would never see each other.



Yes it does. I will try that. And I'm still waiting on the books to arrive so I can read them.

Thanks for your time & input. I really appreciate the suggestions. And like I said, I still need a bop on the head sometimes. But I really am trying to learn to not react to his jerk-ness. I have gotten to where I don't get mad about his still contacting her. I just get hurt & disappointed & I try to tell him that without angry outbursts.

I know this is whining but I think better to do it here than at home.

Some daysk, like today, I think it's just better to accept that he has chosen her over me because he keeps calling her, that divorce is inevitable because he won't change his mind & just try to get along in the same house until it sells & he is gone.

I could even live with being called "ex-wife" right now since I see that he can't give her up, even though he claims he doesn't love her & doesn't want to be with her. That he is here because this is his home & his responsibility (he told me that yesterday). That he just wants to be her friend because he feels sorry for her but he also feels sorry for me sometimes, but not enough to be sorry for what he's put me through. I did ask him if he ever worried about me & the hard time I'm going through right now. He said he knows I'm going through a hard time but thinks that because he is there in the house, there's no worries about me. I'm fine, he doesn't need to be concerned with me because he's there. Isn't that enough for me? I don't even bother to tell him no because I know he can't hear me through the fog & because I don't think I can without LBing him about it. Better to say nothing at all. He told me yesterday he doesn't feel married anymore. I told him I did & would until it truly ends. I did admit that if it ends, I can't be his friend, I will be cordial when it comes to the girls but that is all. I won't ask for or accept anything from him no matter how much he wants to be there for me. He says that's just like a woman. I told him no, that's just like me because I love you too much & that has been my biggest problem.

The hurt runs so deep sometimes I can't breathe, like right now.

I'm just venting before I go home from work. Need to get it out before I get there & LB as soon as I walk in the door.

I'm glad I have this place to come to. It helps.

Last night we talked. About why he called her again. He told me that the only reason he thinks he wants her now is because she is a freak in bed. But he doesn't want his wife to be that way. Even said that was why men went to hookers because they didn't want their wife to be that way. I saw it as justifying.

Told me that he must not love me because he keeps calling her. Then said that if she does something to herself because of him he won't be able to live with it on his head. Agreed with me that I deserved to have someone who wanted to touch me, wanted to spend time with me, just wanted me in general. But doesn't know if he can be that person. Told me that even if he gets the money for a divorce he doesn't think he will get it. Because he would rather spend the rest of his days unhappy with me, pretending to me & the world he is happy, thinking no one would know, than go through a divorce. Admitted he liked being alone to do what he wanted except at night when he was depressed. Then he didn't like being alone. Says he calls her because he feels sorry for her. Has said before that he came back because he feels sorry for me.

He has admitted that she is probably an addiction because he feels such a strong pull to her that he can't resist it. He has admitted that he wasn't away from me with NC with me long enough to really miss me or miss anything about me. Says he did miss me but not really me, just home.

Says he asked the kids about me every time he saw them. But you didn't call me to check on me like you keep doing to check on her. No, he says, I didn't. So I told him that you really don't know how I was doing.

I told him that for every good feeling he gets from her, for every ounce of pleasure he gets at hearing her voice, he piles a thousand times that more in pain on me. Yes, I know that, he says. So why do it or did you even think about me when you did. Yes, I thought about how pissed my wife will be if she finds out, he said. I asked him why he does it when he knows I will find out, I do every time. I don't know. Next to I Guess, those are the three most hated words in my world right now. We talked for 3 or 4 hours.

Don't know what I learned. He kept insisting I am his wife, this is his home & his responsibility which is why he is there. I am his wife on paper only. He doesn't want nor lets me be his wife in any other way. No matter what I try to do, & I do keep trying.

We discussed SF & he had told me the other day that SF with me was just simple sex, something he did with me because he had gotten to the point he couldn't ignore the urge & I was the only one around & available. I told him last night that I deserved to have someone who had SF with me because they wanted to touch me & wanted me to touch them. That I deserved someone who want to be with me & do things with me. He agreed. He has told me several times in the last 10 months that he wants to be that person. Before he changes his mind again.

We talked about his BIL who has met a new woman. He asked me about the last woman he dated. She had left the BIL for a former boyfriend who decided he wanted to marry her. Her now H left her, so she assumed she would be divorced & started calling BIL again. She went to his house to visit. The next day, H showed up & said he wanted to come back. He was gone one week. So BIL has met someone new & decided to have NC with the first woman. My WH said "Huh! Came back, huh?" "Yes," I said, "the day after she went to see another man. I kinda felt like you did the same thing, that you'd found out while you were gone that someone else was interested in me." There was no comment from the other side of the bed.

Fog is back. Does lift occasionally as to be expected. Still wants that job in another city, he feels now that it would give him a chance to completely let OW go & miss me & want me again. We are both still praying it comes through. Will not look me in the eye & tell me that he doesn't love me anymore, he wants a divorce, he will never let go of the OW. He can't because he doesn't want to admit it's over, he says. Because he doesn't know if that's the truth, he doesn't know what the truth is.

I love him, always have, always will. I'm filtering his words through my own fog. An alien has taken over, this is not my husband. We talked. No LB (or tried not to), no arguing or loud words, no AO or accusations, just simple talking. Him trying to tell me his feelings & thoughts, me trying to understand & listening to his words. I'm trying so hard to understand. They say sometimes you can't see the forest for the trees.

How often is he calling hte OW? Is this a daily thing, or is this still from the most recent time you mentioned on here?

Also, do you suspect he's having any other contact with her?


I think you need to start focusing on the positives. It sounds to me like he's liking the whole wallow-in-pitty game. Poor him, he's miserable and hates his life and there's nothing he can do about it, he's just going to stay stuck and miserable ..... blech. Maybe it's time you stopped playing along and started giving you BOTH a better place to focus.

This is a tough balance. You want him to know you hear him, and that you empathize and understand, etc., but you also want him to see where he has choices, and where he's making bad ones. And you have to do it all without arguing or letting it turn into big dramatic scenes and long, drawn out talks (unless he's the one pushing the talks). There's a place, sometimes, for the big long talks, but not all the time. It gets exhausting for everyone.


Piece of cake, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I think you can do it, and I think it might take some of the weight off your shoulders, too. What worked for me was short, little sentences. I was prone to try to argue with him, reason with him, get into long drawn out discussions, and none of that was ever effetive. What worked for me was detaching -- realizing that I didn't have to AGREE with him to understand what he said. And I didn't have to make him agree with me, either. So, for me, it was listen and repeat, then adding my own piece. (And I pretty much begged for people to script this stuff for me -- I was NOT good at it, I am toooooooo long-winded. So don't take my examples here litterally -- make it sound like you and BE SHORT. No one wants to listen to a lecture.)

"I hear you saying you're choosing to be in an unhappy mariage with me, just pretending to be happy. I'd much rather we actually be happy together, I believe we can make that happen again." Quick smile, maybe a wink or a peck on the cheek, and you're off to a fun topic .... "Should we grill some pork chops for dinner?"

If he tries to come back to it, whatever he says in response, (No, we can't ever be happy, No, I just don't feel that way, whatever .... ), don't argue, don't even let it go anywhere, you just give him the same answer. "You believe __(whatever he said -- make sure to repeat what he said so he knows you were actually listening)__, I understand. I choose to try to build a fantastic marriage and friendship with you, better than we ever thought. Do you want some more iced tea?"



Did you find and read the thread that talked about this? The HUGE key thing that you missed here is the "walk away" part. You tell him how muchit hurts, then leave it at that. You don't argue about "then why did you do it" "what were you thinking" etc. -- there are no answers to those questions. It is a drop it and leave it bomb. It's effective when you let him know, and then let him think about it himself. The pounding on it afterwards takes away a lot of the effectiveness.



Then you say "I hear you saying that you feel a responsibility to our home and marriage. I'm glad that you feel that way, I do too. Let's find a way to make this a really hapy home and marriage, together."


Sure he does. He's there. That's a start. It takes a while, in real recovery, before you will ever get to both meeting each others needs. You have to hang in there and get through the ugly parts, first. It's not fun, but it's worth it. And you have to keep looking at it that way, because you have to be the champion of that goal for him, too. Don't let him suck you into the "poor him" world. When he starts looking at that, you need to be the one pointing him to the much better alternative.


I think it's best to lay off the "I deserves" right now. Yes, you should have a husband who wants to be with you. But telling him that isn't really going to get you to your goal. Focus yourself, and then him, on the hopeful things, good things.
"I hear you saying that sex with me is simple and a chore. Let's not settle for that anymore. We're both pretty smart and creative. I bet we can figure out a lot of ways to build up a passionate, exciting sex life."



I don't think it's generally recommended to be apart like that if you want to recover the M. You need GOOD times, FUN, time spent together in order to re-build. I think I'd start phrasing your responses to this very differently. Plan on BOTH moving, together, if he gets the job. Giving him a chance to miss you is not an MB strategy. Plan B does that, and Plan B is not a negotiated thing -- it's a final boundary that you set, you implement, when it's right for you. It's not "why don't you go away and we'll see if that makes you want to come back."


Did you ask him to look you in the eye and say these things? What part of Plan A is that? What could you accomplish with this? There was no right answer to this. Nothing he could have said would have been alright here. It just left you both frustrated and more upset. Don't try to set up these kinds of things.


So .... listen and repeat. Short, hopeful responses. No long lectures or major talks every night. And remember that you don't have to agree with him -- and he doesn't have to agree with you -- to know what he's saying and feeling. He gets it when you say it, you don't have to drum it in or argue. Drop those bombs and let it be, they are much more effective that way.

-AmI.

AmI,



Not often. He called her on the 14th because he heard she was having a hard time, i.e. not eating or sleeping, won't do anything with anyone, lost a lot of weight due to nerves, etc. ad nauseum. I don't think he is having any other contact with her. So I truly don't think it's everyday. I can tell when he's called her or gotten word about her because of the way he acts, grouchy, don't love you anymore, don't touch me, etc.



I think you're right! And I hate it. I know I probably shouldn't, but because of past history, I keep trying to cheer him up, so hard for me to stop. I do manage to stop myself sometimes & he acts all mad when I do.



Yepper, me too, so I need BIG TIME help on that. I am tooo long winded. But my problem now is that if I repeat to him what he says, he tells me I'm telling him how he feels. I just say "No. I'm just telling you what you are telling me so I can understand."


Yea, you're right. It just kinda slipped into the conversation. I admit, I didn't even think, just said it.



We are planning on moving together. But he has a 6 month probation period & our DD#2 has 1 year of high school left. He doesn't want to move permanently until he gets past the probation, I see his point there. Big move to a big city. He is the one saying he won't talk to or call me. I haven't said that even though I thought it might be a good time for me to Plan B if it got to that point. He asked me, "What if I call the OW & invite her to visit during the 6 months?" I said "What if you don't?" And for once, said no more. That's why I won't take a 2nd job that requires me to be gone in the evenings. I don't think it would be a good thing right now if we only see each other for a few minutes each day.



Not really, but have before. Just noticed that he looks away every time he talks about it.



The long talks are only occasionally & I try real hard not to make it a lecture, he does most of the talking & I listen. I realize I don't have to agree with him. He thinks I'm telling him how he feels whenever I repeat what he has just said.

Sunday, we were cooking breakfast & talking about a couple we are friends with. I mentioned that something I had said to the wife before made her mad (& I was only voicing my opinion, saying it was & she had a right to her own opinion) & that was another reason she hates me (she does but acts nice when face to face with me. Her DH & mine are friends so we have to put up with each other.) He said she doesn't hate you, & I said yea she does. Where did you hear that? he asked. I said From you. He asked when & I told him last year after the s**t hit the fan. He said I never said that. I said yes, you did when you wanted me to know that all your friends hate me. He got mad. I know he doesn't remember. He never does 2 seconds after he says it. I don't even get upset anymore, if it comes up, just talk in a normal way like it's everyday conversation.



I'm trying, believe me I am. But I guess I'm like you there. I find it hard to keep it short. Any help you got would help me tremendously.

Thanks for posting to me. I appreciate your point of view & feel less alone in this whole thing.