Cliff note version of my sit.

Married 15yrs, son 5, no physical interaction since son was conceived. We have drifted apart over the past 5 years. Neither of us have been meeting each others needs. W is done. She cares for me but, does not love me, does not want to work on R.

We sleep in separate rooms, I am the primary wage earner, work at home dad and primary care taker and domestic house keeper (cooking, cleaning, shopping etc.) She works full time, but I do not ask her for any money. Her money is for her to do as she pleases.

I have been trying my hardest since Nov '06 to repair our marriage and be the guy she deserves and treat her the way she deserves to be treated and trying my best to feel her needs. We have had our ups and downs since I started the DBing. She has noticed the differences in me and appreciates the effort, but says it is to late.

She has not reciprocated filling any of my needs and every few weeks or so, the taker in me starts feeling jealous and wants attention and I will confornt her saying I love to be there for you and I love to take care of you, but I do not get anyting in return from you. She says she does not reciprocate, becasue she does not want to mislead me into thinking she has feelings for me or that she wants to work things out. I know a lot of the reason she treats me this way is because I continue to allow it to happen. I continue to always be there for her and take care of her and continue to do so without receiving anything in return.

We had to move out of the house where we were living in (Utah), because it was being sold at he first of this month. I took it as a good opportunity for me to move to Ca. and open a business related to my work, that I already do from home. I also thought it to be a great time for us to get separated, since I have grown tired of feeling like she is taking advantage of me.

She said I could go, nut our S would have to stay with her. I could not allow him to be put into daycare for 10 hours a day while she is at work. Especially since he spends all his time with me everyday. We went back and forth on this for a few days and it only got uglier. She finally told me why don't you stay her and we will get a D and you can have Nick (our son) mon-fri and I will take him on the weekends. I agreed to this and I filed for the D that night online. The day we had the papers signed and handed into the court. We are no just waiting for them to arrived in the mail signed by the judge.

Well there is my story (condensed the best I could) and her is my quest that I need help with.

I am still deeply in love with my wife and I would take her back in a heart beat if I knew that she would treat me like a friend and not like a slave and that she would reciprocate filling some of my needs, not even the physical or intimate ones, just the ones like friendship, appreciation, communication. We go out to eat almost every night when she gets of work and we do things together as a family on the weekends. We are still very amicable and friendly as can be, but there is obvious tension between us. I am confident that she would move back in with me if I gave her the chance (she can not afford to be out on her own), but it would be for the wrong reason. I want to win her heart back, but not sure how to do it. Do I continue to pursue her with my kindness or do I stop taking her out to eat at nights and allow her to see how much I did/do for her (hopefully she would see) and how much she needs me in her life? Where do I go from here, what steps do I take?

She has no real reason to want to reconcile with you because she has the best of both worlds right now...you meet most of her needs without even being married!

Stop "playing" with your wife and spending family time together. How will she ever see what she's missing if she doesn't have time to miss you?

She is allowing you to "take care" of her but she's not having to give you anything in return (kind of like when you were married to each other). Is that really the marriage you want?

You say you are still deeply in love with your wife. What is it about her that you are in love with? It can't be the way she treats you. It's not the fact that she fills up your love bank and does little things to make you happy (because she's not doing that). So think, deep down, and ask yourself...why do you love her?

Read the books Fall in Love Stay in Love, His Needs Her Needs. Has there ever been an affair in your marriage?

cathy01, you are right and I have told myself the samething, that I need to stop taking care of her, but it is what I know and do best. I tell myself one day that I am going to stop, but then the next day I am going out of my way to do something for her. I know what you are saying, it is kind of hard for her to miss what I do for her, if it is not missing from her life. urrrrgh!!

There is a part of her that completes me, I am totally attracted to her still. SHe obviously has not drained my love tank enough or I would not still have the strong feelings that I do for her.

No affairs.

I have read His needs Her needs and 5 other R books and just picked up 3 more.

Nugget - I am thoroughly jaded so take my cynical opinion with a grain of salt. But geez man - you may want to grab a dictionary and look up the word "denial".

Your story sounds a little like "battered wife syndrome" where women return again and again to an abusive relationship. I think you may need professional help to see the situation objectively and realistically, and to develop a strategy for dealing with it.

ItIsWhatItIs, a grain of salt??? More like a truck load of salt!!! I apprecaite other people POV and input, that is why I am here, but your opinion is tottaly of kilter. Our relationship has been far from "battered wife syndrome" and abusive. Neglective yes, but, never abusive.

Hi nugget - remember me? Sooly?

I think what the previous poster is trying to say is that after 8 months of the same behavior that you cannot seem to change, it may be more than just her issues that are the problem. There may be some codependency going on, on your part. It's time to consider the possibility, and I say this in the kindest way I can.

Bottom line is this...your wife will continue to use you, and you will continue to be frustrated and hurt until you put a stop to it. Until then, things will go along as they have been for the past 5 years.

Take your son during the week. Let her miss him, but let her realize he is better off with you, the bigger bread winner. Let her see what it's like to have to cook her own meals, fix her own car, do her own shopping, pay her own bills, etc. Let her be lonely. Let her try and have a fulfilling life on her own. It sounds harsh, but it's what she needs. She has nothing to reflect on. No consequences. If you love her, like you say, you need to do this. It's going to be tough, but you need to make a firm decision and not back slide.

Let's say that Nick has a friend who asks him to carry his books to class every day. At first, Nick is glad to do it. Then he's just okay with it. Then he becomes frustrated with it and comes to you for advice. Would you say "Son, keep carrying the books."?

You are enabling her treatment of you. You are facilitating this quite well with this behavior. You are feeding it and not giving her any reason at all to see how this is affecting you. Words aren't working because you say one thing and then go right back and do it all over again.

And when she hints or calls asking for help with something, you tell her you'd really like to but since she doesn't want to be your wife that you have to draw the line at some point and if it doesn't involve your son you have to say no.

Nugget,

Not all abuse is physical. All take and no give IS a form of abuse. Mental abuse maybe, emotional abuse for sure, relationship abuse definitely.

When the object of neglect confronts the one being neglectful and seeks to balance the relationship, and is turned away, it is no longer just neglect - that's abuse.

Your relationship is completely one-sided. That you don't recognize it as abusive is obviously part of the problem.

Sorry to be so blunt, but you really need a wake up call.

Sooly, I do remember you. You have given me great insight in the past just as you have done today.

I know you are totally correct. We have some major codependency issue. On both our parts. My family has told me the same thing. Let her be out on her to see how tough it is. Let her see what it is like to have to shop, and cook for herself etc. And I shake my head and agree with them and say to myself, yeah hopefully she will see how hard it is and maybe appreciate me more. But, I can't seem to remove myself so easily from the situation. I care about her to much and want to make sure she is taken care of. I don't know how to to just break it off. I can go for about a day and then the next day I feel bad and want to do something for her. ARRRRRGH!!!

I know she is struggling already financially and it has only be a little over a week. I hate to see her struggling. The nurturer in me wants to help and is at times.

Things between us have been 10 times better in the past 8 months compaired to the past 5 years, but I just can't take the feeling of being used and that is why we have seperated. But, obviously not much has change thanks to my contiuned behavior of wanting to provide and care for her.

MAKE IT STOP!!!

Ok, give me some hard cold advice on how to stop my behavior.

ItIsWhatItIs, I see what you are saying. Abuse is a strong word for me. When you said "Battered Wife Syndrome" and abusive relationship, I did not agree with that in my situation. But now that you have rephrased it, I can see your point. In a way, at times, I do feel abused emotionally.

Nugget: I think what you have to remember is that if you allow her to be on her own, to fend for herself, without your help, you may gain some much needed respect. I think that is part of what is lacking in your relationship. She does not respect you.

What you need to do is tell her "I need a wife who will be both my lover and my friend. That's what I signed up for, and that's what I want. I want that person to be you, but you have made it very clear that you don't want to take on that role. My door will be open for a little bit longer if you change your mind. However, I have my own happiness to consider, and forever is a long time with someone who doesn't love you."

It sounds hurtful, nugget, but it's the truth. And maybe she needs to HEAR the truth. Maybe everything you've said over the months doesn't count because you've turned right around and done for her again... Your credibility is shot, perhaps.

You have to mean it. Think of this - a few years from now, you could be remarried to someone loving and kind. A friend. A lover. Someone who loves your son just as much as you do. It could happen.

You may not think you can imagine a full life without her, but it's time that you started imaging a different future, if for no other reason than to create an understanding within yourself that your life could go in any number of directions that don't include her, including remarriage to someone fully committed to the marriage and to loving your son as their own. It's something to think about.

Sooly, thank you for your advice as always. I believe you are right. I have no credibility, because all my ranting and raving and threats are just empty comments. I never stand my ground and always go back to taking care of her.

She did get a little bit of a surprise a few weeks ago when I told her that we all had one week to be moved out of the house where we were living and she needed to find a place to live. I know she thought I was going to take care of her and let her move with us. But she had a little bit of an awakening when she came home a week later to find a moving truck in the driveway and me loading me and my sons items onto it. She had not lined up anywhere to go and had to move in with a friend of a friend at the very, very last minute. I can tell she is not happy with her current living situation and sadly she does not earn enough income to move out into a place of her own.

In one week I am planning on taking my son and go to CA. for two weeks. She is ok with it and I think, pretty sure anyway, that the two week separation will be good for us. It makes it nearly impossible for me to be there for her and keeps me from doing things for her. I have plans this week to keep me very busy, which will also help me to be distracted from her and out sit.

I like you advice about telling her that my door is open for know and I would love to reconcile with her, but it is not an open ended offer. I have told her a couple of times in the past few months, that I want someone in my life that cares for me and wants to share my life with them as much as I do. She said that I am a very good man and a great dad and that I do deserve that in my life. The last time she told me that, about 2 weeks ago, she did so very tearfully.

So anyway I am very positive still about us being able to work things out or it may just be denial, who knows. I know that I do need to take your and several other peoples advice about backing off from doing things for her and taking care of her. It is just so hard for me to do. I am a very giving person. My family always tells me that. So it is not in my nature to turn my back on someone in need, especially some one who is so dear to my heart.

Nugget,

Let me frame this for you in a different way. You have denied your W the chance to be a grown up. YOU have denied her the chance to be a good W. You have denied her the chance to mature. You have denied her the chance to have a great marriage.

You did ALL of this by enabling her behavior. Are you going to continue to DENY her the wealth of experience that comes from dealing with the consequences of HER decisions. Not yours, not her parents, not anyone's but HERS.

There is no chance she will be a good mother, a good person, a good wife until she matures and grows up. Don't continue to hurt her by dening her the chance to do this.

Step away, let her be, and allow the consequences of HER choices to educate her. You cannot, you should not, and you did not educate her when she was your W. You failed because YOU tried to protect her from her own decisions.

It is time to let go and let life teach as it always does.

God Bless,

JL

JL, wow. That is a very different way to look at it. And you are absolutely right. I have told her before that she needs to act her age and grow up, but obviously, I do not allow her to do it.

You have also shed some major light on things for me. My wife grew up as the youngest of 4 sisters and in a single parent house (mother, no dad). And her mother had some very tight reigns on her, to protect her and did not allow her to make many decisions on her own. Her sisters and her mothers always cared for her and made sure she had everything she needed and protected her from the world. Same thing I have been doing for 15 years. That really, really helps me to understand why she allows me do the things I do for her and does not feel the need to reciprocate. She has always had everything done for her. She does need to be out on her own and live her own experience and see what life is all about when you have to make your own choices.

I understand how I have denied her, but it was not intentional. I thought I was protecting her and taking care of her. But, sadly even with your insight, I sit here thinking whether or not I have it in me to sit back and not help her out and take care of her. It is just so hard like I mentioned earlier, for me not to take care of someone so dear to me.

Nugget, you are not her father, but she may be looking to you as a father figure. It's something to consider. You know how to fix that, and it won't be easy, but you want someone to be there with you because they WANT to be with you, not because they NEED you and you will 'take care of' them. You need to step out of that unintended role and let her grow up.

When she comes to you with a need, ask her how she will solve it. Don't make offers. Pick her brain until she figures it out 'on her own.'

Also, the constant helping may have had a negative effect on her self confidence. She may find herself feeling very incapable of making decisions and taking care of herself because it was always done for her.

If she didn't have you or her mother, how would she fare?

No dad around and no brothers. To me, it makes sense that she doesn't know how to deal with you and that she would look to you as her stability. What she is missing is that it's supposed to be a partnership. You didn't adopt her; you married her. There's a difference.

Nugget - What kind of home did you grow up in, if I may ask? Was your dad around? Did they get along? Did he take care of you all?

My parents did not have a loving relationship. They married very young 15 and 16 years old. My mom had gotten pregnant and they were thrown into a marriage. My dad was pressured to join her religion and kind of went along with it to please her his whole life, but smoked and on occasion would drink, even though she and the religion forbid it. He was a closet smoker and drinker. When I was younger they would do things together, go out to eat, they were on a bowling league, vacation. But as I got old the grew farther and farther a part. The last decade of my dad's life (he past 2 1/2 years ago form cancer) they spent most of their free time doing things apart.

My dad was not around very much, but when he was we all enjoyed his company, humor and mostly how he would accept us no matter what. There are 6 of us kids and my dad was a very, very hard worker and work all the time, even on his days off. Sunday was really the only day he took time off. He work hard so we could have everything we wanted, in fact we had a lot of stuff we could have easily done with out. Boat, swimming pool, ATV's etc.

My mom was not around much either, which I found odd, because she had a home based business. But, I do not ever recall he going to one of my baseball, basketball or soccer games and I have resentment towards her for that now. If she was not busy sewing for her business, she was totally engulfed in things to do for her church.

Now that you ask, my relationship with my wife has some similarites to that of my parents. My dad worked and paid all the bills, did most of the shopping and took care of the house. My mother also worked (successful seamstress out of her home) and made good money, but she was not ever required to use her money for the household. It was hers to do with what she pleased. Same sit as me and my wife.

For most of my adult life I have resented my mother for not excepting my dad for who he really was and for her being ashamed of him and who he was. I really resented her after he died and was and still am very angry about how she treated him and would never do what he wanted to do and was always putting him down for his rough around the edge personality and habits.

Hmm. The reason I asked was just to gain some kind of insight into what kind of home life you had, trying to figure out where you get such a strong instinct to take care of people.

It looks like you had a great deal of respect for your father and accepted the roles the two of them played as normal, perhaps.

It stands to reason how you and your wife were attracted to each other, given each of your FOO histories. Kind of like two jigsaw pieces that fit quite well together.

It seems like you were looking for someone to take care of, and she was looking for someone who could take care of her.

That, in and of itself, could be something that 2 people could live with quite comfortably, if there were no intimacy issues. However, since she has made it plain to you how she feels, I think if you ever want an intimate relationship with a woman again, your only course of action is to detach and see how it goes, placing a time line on things before you move on.

I wanted to ask if your separation is legalized, and if there is a clause in it that she cannot take your son out of the country without your permission?

Nugget,

I like Soolee's thoughts on this. Mine are a bit different. I wonder why you would marry a woman like the woman that you have little respect for. I know us guys are said to favor marrying women like our mothers, but this is taking it way to far.

But, the most disturbing aspect of this is that you have done and are doing to your child what was done to you. Your result is that you have little love for your mother and don't respect her much. Do you want to carry these things on to another generation? I have forgotten if your child is male or female, but if the child is male do you want him marrying a woman such as your W? Do you want him working hard, doing everything and getting NOTHING back expect the need to be needed?

If your child is a daughter, do you want her to have the values your W has? Do you want her to treat her children, and her H as you have been treated both as a child and as an adult?

My advice stands...let her grow up on her own. But more importantly you need to step back and ask yourself some really deep questions. Are you in love with the image of a woman that NEEDS you to do so much that she will NOT leave you even if she hates you and doesn't respect you? Are you in love with the fantasy of your W rather than the reality of your W? What makes it OK for someone to treat you as your W has?

You have some huge issues and baggage here, and it has nothing to do with your W. You need to address this so that you can be a real father to your child. You need to addresss this so that you can meet a woman worthy of you and model for your child what ADULTS do in a loving relationship. YOU need to change your perspective about yourself and women. YOU need to do many things. So quit worrying about taking care of a woman that only uses you, but does not love or respect you. Take care of yourself so that you can have a REAL relationship and be a better father to your child.

At this point it is all about your child and you, not her. She has bailed and she sees no reason to come back. That may change, but My bet is that as YOU grow, change perspectives you will find she is very disturbing, very disgusting, and not very enticing.

Work on you. Let her work on herself. And take care of your child. Life is really simple sometimes and this is one of those times. Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Sooly, we have filed for divorce and we should be receiving the final papers this week or next week. She can not take our son except for weekends unless I agree.

LT, I take offense to your POV in your first line. Which is ok that is why we are all here, to get input from others. First of do we really know the person we know 100%, do why know what our relationship with that person will be like or how we view them or how they view in 1, 5 10 or 50 years after we marry. Hardly. If we did where there be anyone on this forum. I did not marry my wife because she was like my mother. I had no real knowledge of how she was raised until later in our marriage. Honestly we married each other because we were in love and really enjoyed each other company, we were smitten and got married, nothing more, nothing less. Our true selves where only revealed in the past 5 years. Next, I am not sure what you mean by I have no respect for my wife. Please elaborate.

I agree with you about protecting our son from our behaviors and trying to shield him from how we truly are. That is why we are divorced and not living together. How more can I shield him, but to remove the situation from his life.

I do not just concentrate or search out women that I can take care of. I am a very caring and giving person to everyone that I care for in my life. I take donuts to my brother and his co-workers every Thursday. I take my nieces and nephews to the movies and to lunch just to treat them to a day out almost monthly. I am always praised for my well thought out and personalized gifts that I give for B-days and X-mas to friends and family. I am always the one that says yes, I can help you out when I'm asked or offering to do so even before I am asked. So, it is not just my wife that I always want to take care of and make sure she is cared for. It is everyone that I hold dear and near to my heart.

Nugget - Okay, well then that helps us understand you a little better as a person and not just a husband. It's reassuring to me that you are like this with everyone in some regard.

However, realize that it's okay to want things and relationships to go both ways, to be reciprocal, equitable for both of you.

She may or may not change her mind about you. It's impossible to tell. For your son's sake and for financial purposes, I think staying with you during the week is probably the best set up. I don't think your wife is in a position to be able to pay for day care, and I think having his parents live separately is going to be enough of a change for him anyway.

I understand that your big struggle is wanting to do for her, but I suggest that over the next 6 months to a year that you find ways to wean both of you from your dependence of each other. This way, she can feel and know, rather than theorize, the benefits of being married to you and/or the detriments of divorcing you. It will also allow both of you some growth and optimize your emotional state for any subsequent relationships.

For instance, from a financial standpoint, only give her what you are legally required to give. From a maintenance standpoint, ask her how she intends to solve a problem first before you jump in and try to fix everything for her. For instance, you can suggest she try and speak with a certain contractor before she calls you. You can even make a list of people you trust to take care of certain things, such as car repair or appliance repair. She may appreciate that. Ideally, train her in some respects not to call you first. Don't be so readily available to bale her out of certain situations.

Here's the thing, nugget. If she wants to be taken care of, she needs to give back, to reciprocate. For her to have the mentality that it isn't necessary for her to do that is just not healthy for her - not just in a marriage setting, but in a work or social environment as well.

This women seems not to have been duly trained to be self sufficient. I'm sure her mother did what she thought was right, but you can see for yourself that something is missing. You, in essence, may have to finish raising her in some respects. Not fair to you, but if you ever want to see the finished project, to ever see her in an independent position where she can choose versus need you, you will probably have to do this.

The reality is she could slip through your fingers once she realizes her independence and ability to choose rather than need, and I sense this may be part of what keeps you giving to her. However it is far better to let something go and have it come back to you of its own accord. This way you know that you are loved, really loved. Otherwise, you will always wonder.