MEDC, I need to ask you some questions because I see you often refer to “penis” or “vagina” in your posts (almost if you have an obsession with using those words) and you responded to lifeschoice's comment above by using those words as well.

Anyway, as you know, unfaithfulness includes much more than just using someone else’s genitals. And many times genitals don’t even play a role in an A…and not even in all PA’s. So, I was wondering, why do you often speak about unfaithfulness or responds to posts about unfaithfulness by only focusing on “penises” and “vaginas”??? And since you think people who are unfaithful should be branded for life for that, do you think people who commit emotional adultery or physical adultery without using their genitals should get the scarlet A on their foreheads as well, or do you think it must only apply to people who use their “penises” and “vaginas”? Do you think unfaithfulness without using ones genitals is less painful to BS’s?

You could have just said: “No one is ever in such a bad marriage that they need another man or woman to help improve their life (instead of “penis” and “vagina”). If you’ve stated it in that way, it would have included both EA’s and/or PA’s which is a much broader and correct classification of unfaithfulness… So why exactly did you decide to use the words “penis” and “vagina”???

And I don’t mean it disrespectful here… I’m really curious.

you and I view adultery differently Suzet. Men and women often do. I personally would have been upset with your actions...but would not have considered it an affair of the same magnitude as a PA.

As far as my using the words... you say that I use those words often... I dispute that... I use them when I think they are appropriate.

I don't mean to be disrespectful to you either...but perhaps we have different posting styles.... I really don't need your input on how to say things. I happen to think the words are fine in the context that they were used.

Do I feel a FWS needs to be marked forever...that all depends on the person. I do think it is part of their resume so to speak. I would want to know if a woman I was dating ever cheated on her H...so, yes, in that case, she should be marked. Doesn't mean I wouldn't date her...just that she would need to answer some tough questions regarding her personal recovery.

I do think that others should carry around the stigma of an affair. While I don't quite have all the answers as to how to handle things, I would never include you as a friend due to your failure to take care of another person you harmed...and your reasons really wouldn't hold water with me. So, again, in that respect, I would say yes...it should remain with you.

I see people like Mrs W and others here that I look at no differently than anyone else. They have repented and learned from their sins....they are washed clean in my eyes...no marks at all.

Now, imagine for a moment Suzet...here I am a BS, having my posting methods questioned by a FWS that left another BS dangling in the wind because of her own needs....it doesn't sit right with me....heck, next thing LG will be chiming in too. While I listen to all you have to say... I consider the source to be less than credible in my eyes. I am sorry if that sounds harsh...but it is people like you that have harmed many a BS...even if they don't know it.

Sorry for the tangent.

You are absolutely correct it SHOULD, but as we all know it doesn't always. While I was watching this video clip I kept thining about what Dr Harley said in his infidelity video clip that was posted here a few weeks ago.

I was much like the woman Dr Harley mentioned, as was my H, who believed we personally would never have to deal with infidelity. All we needed was trust and the belief we would never be cheated on and we would be fine. We learned the hard way.

LC

Thanks for your opinion MEDC.

A ring and a ceremony is all that is required to remain faithful.

There are legal process' and procedures in place to releive a person of their responsibility of fidelity.

You pick up a phone, call an attorney, plunk down some cash and at the end of a predetermined period of time you are free to go out and do whatever you want with the opposite sex. Heck go out and do it with someone of the same sex for all I care.

But until the day a Judge stamps a piece of paper and it is made public record you are married.

Someone made the comment about filling the spouses EN's. That may be true but we see in most WS or FWS the feeling of entitlement. Maybe the FWS or WS had so many UNREALISTIC needs the BS couldn't fill them.

Some WS may feel the need or financial security and affection. The problem is the need for financial security in this persons mind is having a huge house, a benz, a maid and live the highlife while the WS has to work two jobs in two offices to provide that "financial security"

So now the WS gets to say hey that's not fair you don't spend enough time with me.

I think before we point a finger at a BS about filling the WS needs we should get to know the sitch.

Sometimes affairs are really caused by really selfish people. That no matter what the BS does they are not going to be happy. Why because no BS can give someone everything and that is what some WS think they diserve.

Suzet,

I realize this isn't directed to me, but I will tell you what my hubby said about his. My FOM and I did not have sex, but did have "make-out" sessions.

My H said it wasn't about what we didn't do, it was what we DID do that mattered. It was just as painful for him as if we did have SF.s.

I think your H would be in the minority. I think most men would be more upset to find out their wives gave oral sex to another man...rather than kissing him (which I would be furious about as well). I think that intercourse is the same...your H may viewit differently...but I sure would be more upset based on the facts of what was done.

I'm confused by your reply, which leads me to believe I was not clear on what I stated.

Yes, you are correct he would probably been more upset. But this is what I based my answer on. For a long time I tried to believe my A wasn't "as bad" as others because we didn't have sex. I was mistaken, it was just as damaging. He did thank me for not having SF with the FOM and yes he did ask about oral, too. My point to Suzet was that an A, regardless of the type of contact, is devastating and damaging.

Does that make what I said about as clear as mud?

LC

I understand now.

Lifeschoice,

You are so correct that any type of A (regardless of the type of contact) is devastating and damaging to BS’s. And from what I’ve read here, I also know that many BS’s (including men) experience and has experienced the emotional part of an A equally or more painful and devastating than the physical part of it… The only reason I’ve asked MEDC that question e.g. if he thinks unfaithfulness without using ones genitals is less painful to BS’s, is because he appears to often only concentrate and refer to the SF part of adultery e.g using ones genitals. The other reason I was questioning his use of those terms is because recently, BS’s said to him that they find the graphic and explicit use of those terms offensive, triggering and painful. But in stead of answering my questions straight, he chose to avoid some of those questions and attacked me from his moral high ground and pedestal in stead. Typical “gasghligting” behavior...

MEDC, I find it surprising that a person whose own moral compass, beliefs and past actions are not so pure, decide to attack and judge others from a moral high ground. You also did it to MelodyLane recently and decided to use her past alcoholism as an attack and DJ against her... Are you without sin and mistakes MEDC? What makes you think you are in a position to judge others and think you are better than them just because you haven’t done the exact same sins and wrong actions? Have you forgotten that you have committed a sexual offense against God and another human being in your past MEDC e.g. fornication and impregnate a woman out of wedlock??? You said you will have tough questions for a woman who has cheated on her H if you ever date such a woman… Well MEDC, then just make sure you also communicate your past fornication with women you plan to date, because I’m sure if it’s decent, Christian women with high morals, they will have tough questions for you as well… Also make sure you then communicate with such women that you see nothing wrong with married dating women who is not yet divorced e.g. emotional adultery and that you also don’t view porn viewing and lusting after other women as mental adultery (we had a discussion about this in the past MEDC and I know you don't view these things as mental adultery and sexual offense against God and others). I'm sure if you communicate these things to decent, Christian women as well, they will even have TOUGHER questions for you...

There is no one-size-fits-all on pain. Everyone is different and are more upset about different things.

There is no right or wrong answer here.

I agree Bigk. Everyone is different and I think it's wrong for MEDC to assume that most men will find the SF part of an A more painfull, devastating & damaging than the other elements of an A (that's the impression I get from his posts, but I can be wrong). I remember you once said that your W's EA was more painfull and difficult for you to overcome than the PA. Is that correct?

I don't know if I'd go that far. But it's like predicting your reaction to an affair isn't it? Most of us don't really know how we would react till it happens.

Conventional wisdom dictates that PA's are worse for men to forgive and EA's are worse for women.

However, anecdotally from what I have observed here, this is by no means the case.

In my specific instance, there was no sex but plenty of physical contact - kissing etc. It would have undoubtedly been worse if they had sex. How much I can't say.

MEDC can really only speak for himself (as can I)

Yes, I have observed the same thing around here e.g. that the conventional wisdom that PA’s are worse for men and EA’s are worse for woman is an extremely generalized statement and not always the case.

IMHO, every day some of my needs as well as some of my wife's are met outside the M. For example, it would be unrealistic to expect all concersation, admiration, and recreational companionship to be fulfilled by me. I guess the way I look at it is the SF is the realization of the EA. (Note - I understand this is not always the case but I have to wonder if I would stay with my W if it was one night stands with no EA)

I say that because, as painful as all this is/was, violating our relationship for cheap SF would be perverse and show no respect for herself/our M. SF with EA hurts like he!!, but I can see where she went astray and the state of our M at the time. This made it easier for me to work on meeting HN to improve our M.

If it had been an EA only, it would not have hurt as bad because the pinnacle of monogamous marriage, SF, was still intact. The fact that my W laid with OM and willingly gave away the innocence of our M, makes me sick and angry to this day....Again, this is only my personal feelings.

It's somewhat of a 2-edged sword isn't it. Is a cheap ONS roll in the hay saying more about the character of the adulterer than an entangled PA. Certainly if there is no or low emotional attachment, it can be easier to recover (perhaps easier for woman than men) I don't know. It's speculation no more.

Hey MEDC,

I'm a former BS... what do I have to do to join your special "I'm better than any and all WS Club???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

If I join, can I sit behind my computer screen and judge all of the WS that come here the MB web site???

Please let me know what the membership requirements are and where I can sign up...
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


Semper Fi,
RIF

Yes, it certainly is double edged sword.

I guess my feeling is that an entangled PA we can all be led to if we are not closely gaurding our "Love Bank" at all times. This can happen over the period of months or years. Once fogged out, a WS can justify almost anything in their mind

A cheap ONS, on the other hand, with no EA, is a decision made of clear mind (No fog) with little regard for their M, their self respect, or health

Charachter of both is about equal, IMO, as the end result is the same, an A. However, to me, I could not stay if it had been a ONS, because it would certainly happen again. Hopefully, my W has realized where her limits are and I certainly have learned more about M needs through all this. (Although I am not thankful for the A)

Grindnfool, I understand and agree with what you’re saying about ONS’s… As Bigk has said, it might be easier & quicker for people to recover from ONS’s because of no emotional connection and only one night duration, but personally I can’t understand how a person can allow him/herself to have the most intimate and vulnerable act on this planet (SF) while having NO feelings or emotional connection to that person at all. To risks ones family and M for cheap, shallow sex with no feelings attached with a prostitute or someone else is highly disgusting, shallow and frightening to me.

Since I’ve never experienced betrayal from my spouse, I can’t speak from experience. However, I would think a long term combined EA/PA is the most difficult to recover from for both BS and FWS. This is so because such an A involves much more lies, deceit etc. from the WS than any other form of betrayal – and especially the emotional addiction and attachment towards the OP make things much more complicated and painful for both the BS and FWS. However…I think if I were a BS, the emotional attraction/attachment/addiction would at least gave me some form of explanation and understanding (not justification and rationalization) on how and why my spouse could have allowed the EA to become PA. As you said, a fog can build up over years and months and a fogged out WS can justify almost anything in their mind. However, this is not the case with an ONS or visit to prostitute at all.

Therefore, IMO, I would say a EA/PA is worse than a ONS in the sense that it takes the FWS and BS harder to recover from it. But on the other side, a ONS is worse than a EA/PA in the sense that it will probably more difficult for the BS to digest/comprehend because a ONS reduce the act of sex to a shallow act with a stranger where there is NO feelings are attached (and therefore can easily happen again).

Of course during EA/PA the sex act is also reduced to a shallow act, but for the reasons above, I feel it’s more so the case with a ONS and other forms of casual sex with strangers and/or people where there is NO feelings attached. *Shudder*

Again, I’m speaking from the POV of someone who haven’t experienced betrayal myself and therefore I can’t know or begin to imagine how I would really feel and react in such a situation and I hope & pray I never will… I can just guess and give my thoughts for what it’s worth as someone who have not been through this myself.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well said RIF... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />