and just because he asked her to not do something does not mean it is a betrayal.

If he asked her to not call the police on a neighbor that is abusing her child...and she calls...has she betrayed her H?

No, the only betrayal that has happened here is Suzet betarying what she SAYS are her values and morals. She would like to tell but she has the oh so convenient excuse that her H doesn't want her too. Funny how she didn't give a rats butt about what her H wanted during her A, but now...even if he wants something that is just plain wrong, she gives in... all too convenient.

egg zak lee

You're right. What makes it a betrayal is because its directly related to the affair. And it can potentially result in renewed contact again.


Your analogy...like the one that Frog used earlier...doesn't pertain. Because your example has nothing to do with the pain she caused her husband by having the affair to begin with. Its not the same thing. Take a look at the example I'd posted about a beam falling...I think that's a little closer. Now...your example of HPV is also closer...which is why that particular example is one worth considering.


No, its not convenient...its NORMAL. You see that exactly in ALL FWS's. That they DIDN'T care about their BS's feelings during the affair...but they do when they're truly in recovery. Virtually all of the posters here who are in a recovering(ed) marriage could describe their FWS's in exactly the same light. I think that the only 'convenient' thing here is your choice of using this as an example without taking into consideration that this is SOP for ALL FWS's.

Yes. It could be a life or death sitch, and it isn't it the law to diclose this type of info, MEDC? Not disclosing HPV may result in what constitutes involuntary manslaughter, right? Or murder, maybe? It also coudl endanger the lives of others.

An EA is NOT a life or death sitch.

It is also not child abuse.

However, after reading so much of Frog and you, I am rethinking my position, but still I can't stand to see Suzet hurt with hateful words. I believe she would disclose if she could, I do not believe she is a liar.

Do you see any difference in hurting someone with words MEDC? Is it not still hurting someone? The thing you say you cannot stand?

I'm thinking hard here about all of this, because I am very much guilty of the same thing. The hurtful words thing when someone is not being honest because of self-preservation, however this is a unique sitch where the BS doesn't want to disclose.

Weaver,

It is not my intention to hurt Suzet.

I just whole heartedly disagree with that position.

I beleive most would including yourself.

We can argue it any way we want we know it to be wrong.

Owl you are arguing the pain and betrayal this act will cause her H.

Is this not causing her pain? Is this not betraying herself?

She is relegious ok then "Do unto others"

I think it is a bad decesion to make exceptions.

Morally it is the right thing to do. You know it, I know it, Medc knows it and so does weaver.

The message to Suzete should be clear. Tell the OM wife. Poja a way to make it acceptable to your H.

Again POJA a way to make him accept it.

I bet if Suzet were in an affair with the OM and her BH needed his wife to break it up he would want her to know.

Think guys think.

She's TRIED to POJA with her H on this. She went through this with him several times. He remains steadfast in how he feels. He refuses to agree to her contacting OMW in any fashion. PERIOD.

I agree with you...this IS causing her pain and suffering.

See my post earlier...wouldn't most of us take the pain on ourselves, rather than pass it on to our spouses? Given the choice of hurting your wife or yourself, which would you choose? Especially if you've already put your wife through the unbearable pain of an affair?

I see your viewpoint. I simply don't agree that its as easy as you claim it is. And I personally feels if she's faced with a choice that serves EITHER her husband or OMW, then she should choose whats best for her husband...every time. He's the one she's married too, he's the one who she really violated oaths to, he's the one who's recovery should be first and foremost in her mind.

If telling OMW will hurt her H, then she should choose to take care of her husband FIRST...before she places concern for OMW.

We've both said our peace...we've both agreed that we'll disagree. I'll drop now...I've said my piece.

I said POJA how he wants her to expose. Not exposure itself.

But it isn't just my wife.

In your example change it.

The tip of the bh's big toe.
Suzets whole foot.
The OM's W leg.

And whoever else this may be effecting.

He is saving the skin off his big toe and the other two are getting crippled.

OWL look closer at what I am saying. I am saying HER H is wrong for asking or Selfishly demanding this.

She IMVHO should let him know to be a good moral person she must tell the OM's Wife.

The Poja could be I am telling but how do you prefer I do it.

I can no longer live with the guilt this has caused.

And IMVHO OWL she chose to mess with a married man. She included his wife in it.

Suzet wrote to Dr. Harley about this because she was so conflicted. He wrote back and this was his response:

Hi “Suzet”,

The two most important rules for surviving an affair are to 1) never see or talk to the lover again (and create extraordinary conditions to guarantee that outcome), and 2) follow a plan for marital recovery that leads to a mutual feeling of romantic love (with emphasis on the Policy of Undivided Attention, the Policy of Radical Honesty, and the Policy of Joint Agreement as outlined in "Fall in Love, Stay in Love." There are other rules that are optional, such as letting the lover's spouse know about the affair, since it would be the caring thing to do. But it's optional, and has little bearing on the success of a marriage when the two most important rules are followed. While I encourage revealing the affair to the lover's spouse, it's not necessary, and if your husband objects, I wouldn't do it. [emphasis mine] But the other rules cannot be compromised. You simply must not ever see this man again and you and your husband must both follow the Policy of Undivided Attention (15 hours a week that are set aside to meet the emotional needs of affection, intimate conversation, recreational companionship, and sexual fulfillment), the Policy of Radical Honesty (to become completely transparent to each other), and the Policy of Joint Agreement. If either you or your husband fail to follow these rules, you are not likely to recover from this affair. I hope that clarification helps.

Best wishes
Willard F. Harley, Jr.

She posted this several months ago.

Look, I have even heard Dr Harley say it's optional. So please let's put to bed Owl the statements by you saying that questioning methods are suspect.

It IS optional from a marriage building standpoint and it DOES carry the risk of a breach in NC. No doubt about that.

It is IMO a moral issue. It is important we make amends.

I personally don't believe anyone should prevent or stop me from making any moral choice. It's MY personal integrity at stake here.

Suzet is of course being killed by her conscience over this. It will eventually stop troubling her however. We call that a seared conscience.

Now I really DO NOT believe a compassionate "F"WS would be unsuccessful in gaining their spouses enthusiastic agreement to doing the right moral thing. It's all in the approach. IF Suzet went to her husband and said "This is absolutely killing my conscience and I can't sleep" do you really think he would not enthusiastically agree to telling OM'sW? If he DID under these circumstances would Suzet want to remain married to someone who prevents her from making such a choice. See it's all to do with the approach.

Suzet BROKE NC last year. She STILL works with the OM and yet her husband won't expose, won't protect his wife from her weaknesses.

Suzet posts how wonderful he is and all about his whistleblowing. Why will he not blow the whistle where it needs to be blown most to safeguard his wife?

In any case, I do not believe that doing a morally upright thing is dependant on the agreement or anyone even my spouse and hence I believe POJA is being misapplied to this issue and conveniently enabling people to hide behind cowardice. Hoe convenient for them.

Hey MEDC - This will be my last post to you.



You, Sir, are NOT a gentelman. You are a bully and a cad and your words are NOT helpful to people that are trying to rebuild their marriages.

I can see from your ACTIONS that you have no class.

No need to reply as I don't care what you have to say.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hmmmm....

Been reading this thread, trying to figure out why a BS would NOT want the other BS to be told, honestly trying to understand how a BS might be the one opposed to exposure while the WS is the one (claiming?) to be FOR exposure...

I have a LOT of experience being a BS (former husband was serial adluterer). I have to admit my opinion, based on a LOT of opportunity to observe WS mentality and manipulations, is that exposure is a must, not just because it's the right thing to do (that the other BS deserves to know the truth so they can have some chance of saving/repairing their marriage) but also because non-exposure is a tool the WS can use to continue or restart the adultery.

Still, I was trying to convince myself that it could be... that maybe some BS's wouldn't care whether or not there was full exposure...

But then I read:

"Suzet BROKE NC last year. She STILL works with the OM and yet her husband won't expose, won't protect his wife from her weaknesses.

Suzet posts how wonderful he is and all about his whistleblowing. Why will he not blow the whistle where it needs to be blown most to safeguard his wife?"

I admit I have not read all of Suzet's posts, but even if I had all I'd really 'know' is what she, a WS, says... My experience and gut tells me not to trust. In all honesty, I would have a hard time believing that a BS wants to keep a fellow BS in the dark even if the BS was the one claiming that! But a WS claiming that they want exposure but their BS doesn't is not something that I can readily believe.

IMHO failing to stop ALL contact with the other adulterer severely lessons credibility. WHEN/IF all contact ends, AND the other BS has been told, then the adultery will really be over so recovery can begin.

It baffles me as well. Suzet and I have gone the rounds a few times on this. Suzet is a special case - just ask her. She'll tell you.

OHHHHHHHHH and Lousygolfer is similarly special. His BS doesn't want to expose either.

Hmmmm....

Been reading this thread, trying to figure out why a BS would NOT want the other BS to be told, honestly trying to understand how a BS might be the one opposed to exposure while the WS is the one (claiming?) to be FOR exposure...

I have a LOT of experience being a BS (former husband was serial adluterer). I have to admit my opinion, based on a LOT of opportunity to observe WS mentality and manipulations, is that exposure is a must, not just because it's the right thing to do (that the other BS deserves to know the truth so they can have some chance of saving/repairing their marriage) but also because non-exposure is a tool the WS can use to continue or restart the adultery.

IMHO anyone who deosn't respect marriage (theirs or another's) doesn't respect marriage period. So I guess I don't understand how anyone who would want a BS to be deprived of such vital info could be ebough of an advocate for marriage to pull off saving their own marriage? I mean if/when I remarry I certainly will not even consider anyone who would in any way help hide adultery from a BS.

Still, I was trying to convince myself that it could be... that maybe some BS's wouldn't care whether or not there was full exposure...

But then I read:

"Suzet BROKE NC last year. She STILL works with the OM and yet her husband won't expose, won't protect his wife from her weaknesses.

Suzet posts how wonderful he is and all about his whistleblowing. Why will he not blow the whistle where it needs to be blown most to safeguard his wife?"

I admit I have not read all of Suzet's posts, but even if I had all I'd really 'know' is what she, a WS, says... My experience and gut tells me not to trust. In all honesty, I would have a hard time believing that a BS wants to keep a fellow BS in the dark even if the BS was the one claiming that! But a WS claiming that they want exposure but their BS doesn't is not something that I can readily believe.

IMHO failing to stop ALL contact with the other adulterer severely lessons credibility. WHEN/IF all contact ends, AND the other BS has been told, then the adultery will really be over so recovery can begin.

And yes, even if the BS really is so trusting, naive, scared, embarrassed, whatever... to insist on no contact and full exposure, the WS should still stop all contact and inform their adultery partner's BS!

BECAUSE the WS knows very well that continued contact and keeping a BS in the dark leaves the door open for them to restart (or continue?) the adultery. Suzet, if you are sincere about saving your marriage, you will admit to your BH that continued contact and failure to tell the OM's wife are risks that you don't want to expose your BH and your marriage to.

I don't doubt Suzet's sincerity actually. She's still wrong though.

Meremortal, for more information, please read THIS POST I’ve send on the "BS fog" thread recently.

Meremortal, you can also read THIS (a post I send recently on contact with OM).

I just want to mention that "affirmative action" makes it almost impossible now for white Africans to get other jobs. My H was unemployed for 4 YEARS after his dismissal because of the same reason and only recently received a job again. One of the people at the Human Resources dept of that company informed him that he was extremely lucky to get that job since only 2 out of every 100 vacant post are filled with white African people these days...it’s part of black empowerment and government requirements in my country. I still apply for jobs when applicable but I have not been successful so far. The most recent job I applied for was a few days ago.

MEDC,

I was thinking about your remark that I’m a “racist”… I know I must not take any of your false accusations and judgments to heart, by I was wondering anyway what on earth you have referred to as a “racist reference”. Then I was thinking maybe because I use the words “white”, “black” and “colored” when explaining the employment issues in my country that you think I’m a racist because I’m using those words… Therefore, I just want to point out to you that in my country we speak off “African whites”; “African blacks” etc. I can see how my choosing of the words “black”, “white” etc. can be viewed as very inappropriate (and even that I’m a racist) by some people in the US and others who are not living in my country, but in South-Africa we don’t use the term “African-American” because it’s not applicable. Here in Africa people are called “Africans” but to differentiate between the different races the terms “black, “white”, “colored” etc. are used. That's very common in my country.

My current direct line-manager is an African black man. He is the best manager I have ever worked for and I have the greatest loyalty, respect and admiration for him in his capacity as my line manager. Because of the AA (Affirmative Action) program, most of the people I directly work with are colored or black and some I consider as very dear colleagues. Actually my direct colleague (who I work with me in the same office every day - an African black woman) I also consider as personal friend of mine.

Me and my H’s frustrations are not against the black and colored people in this country themselves, but against the South African Government and the way they have already abuse, misused and exploited the AA program in an attempt to discriminate (and further discriminate) against African white people in this country...even against the young graduated students and other young white people in this country (like me and my H) who were not responsible for the racial issues and problems in the "apartheidsera" when African whites were still governing this country.

Hope this will clear the issue out for you MEDC because I take great, great offence in being called a "racist". I understand the other issues you have about me because of the lack of exposure to OMW (as I've said, you are entitled to your own opinions), but that "racist" comment was just over the top! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

HUH??????????? (Confused - scratch my head... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />) I really can’t see the relevance of this question to my situation MEDC... Even if I had HPV it would not put the OBS’s health at risk because it was EA (unless of course it was possible to infect the FOM with HPV through the computer screen). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Seriously though...my H has told me that if my EA was on a higher level of betrayal and/or PA (whether I was infected by HPV or not) he would feel differently about exposure to OBS (refer to my post on the “BS fog” thread).

Suzet...it was a hypothetical...that's why I put the words "if&would" in there. I was just looking for where people were drawing their morality line....since many here didn't seem to think that the psychological damage was enough reason to expose...I wondered if they thought physical harm would be enough reason...and if so, why.

Suzet, I was not the only one to call you on the comments that I (and others) considered racist quite some time ago...if I am wrong and it is merely an issue with the difference in words used, I apologize for the reference to your being "racist."

I stand by every word I have said regarding your not exposing the affair.