And Pep if you're still here!

I'm writing this post for my SIL, with her permission. She has to make some decisions pronto, and doesn't have the time to get familiar with the MB site or even post at the moment. So I offered to do it for her.

Her H had an A in 2002-2003. If she comes here she can fill you all in on that one. He ended up dumping the OW and they have been in recovery ever since. We met for dinner on Friday and she told me he now is having another A. She found out in February because the stupid OW sent a Valentine's day card to him in an unaddressed envelope, which my SIL opened. Brilliant! They were briefly in MC and he has been in IC. Her IC did not promote anything active to break up the A, assuming it would just end because the A is long distant. On July 4th SIL found out the A is still going on. Her WH is in deep fogland. All the typical WS fogbabble. He doesn't want to continue the M, blah, blah, blah. He also is showing no remorse.

SIL says she wants to save the M, however I'm not sure now. Frankly I have mixed feeling about the whole thing since he's done this twice. It's difficult for me to understand how a FWS could do this again after witnessing the pain the 1st time around. I did tell SIL that I have seen Ms recover after multiple As and I'd support her decision whatever she does. On Friday I told her she can break up the A, if possible, defog her H, and then dump him if she wants. Then the choice is hers.

Her H is going away for business tomorrow through Thursday. She wants to tell him tonight to move out when he gets back. She is tired of the pain, although still doesn't know if she wants to end the M or not. This is what I e-mailed her today.

"I agree that doing what you've been doing will just promote
more cake-eating. If it were me, 2nd time around dealing with this sh!!, I might do the following. First, I'd calmly tell him that you can no longer live with him while he is having an affair. If he isn't willing to end it he needs to move out by whatever time period you want. He also must tell your kids in front of you the reason why he is moving out. If he says he will end the affair, then I would tell him you will need to make contact with her husband, and he will need to end it in front of you. Harley recommends a No Contact letter, which you can get examples of on MB. Maybe that would be enough. If he isn't willing to end the affair, and do the above, I'd kick him out and go into a Plan B. That's the total dark thing I was telling you about. I'd also expose the affair to everyone that would cause discomfort in both of their lives."

My SIL has a 19 yr old girl and a 16 yr old boy. She is very concerned about them and would like to save them from knowing if he doesn't move out. However, wants them to know for sure if he does leave.

Any advice for her would be greatly appreciated. In my case I never had to expose because just the threat of exposure and kicking H out did the trick. Because this is SIL's 2nd time around with this I am leaning towards her just kicking him out, but I realize that might be bad advice. Truthfully I don't know how anyone could do the whole Plan A deal the 2nd time around. It was hard enough the 1st time around.

OK, I'll shut up now and hope for some good advice. Thanks much!

Well, I'm not one of the "pro's"...

And I'll be honest...serial cheating is a different critter, IMHO.

I think if she wants to kick him to the curb, she should.

Doing so a second time, KNOWING what kind of pain you're putting the BS through this time, indicates a personality flaw for someone not fit for marriage, again, IMHO.

If she wants to try to save the marriage, teach her plan A.

If she chooses to walk, help her with her plan D.

Sorry, I'm not sure what else to suggest. My only other thought is that she shouldn't try to 'hide' the affair from her children. They're old enough to understand...and if they don't hear the truth from her, they'll be hurt by her AND him when they do learn the truth.

CV, I think she needs to be honest with herself. If she is not prepared to lose him in deference to her dignity, her marriage will not change and she must accept it as it is.

If she is willing to lose him over this I believe extraordinary efforts on behlfof her H is required. Grand gestures of repentence and contrition. No shred of entitlement must remain else she kicks him out once for all.

I will declare my hand and say I'd just kick him out. To cheat again after seeing the devastation his previous A caused and to work on recovery from it is sick IMO and I wouldn't wear it.

So abject surrender from him, else kick the bum out IMO.

Thanks Owl and Bob. I hope a few more people here respond.

My SIL's current sitch is very similar to some other stories I've heard here. I don't think their recovery was a bad recovery, yet her H didn't do the necessary work to really understand why he had an A, and what he needs to do to protect his M. Also he has serious FOO issues that have never been dealt with. He is an extreme CAer and she didn't push him to do the necessary recovery work. These are not excuses for a 2nd A, just some common things I've noticed when BSs go through this again.

I tend to think that if her H isn't willing to immediately end the A and walk over water for her right now, she should do an immediate Plan B, contact the OW's H, expose it, and then go dark. If then her H wakes up, he needs to show massive amounts of remorse through words and concrete actions, like total transparency, radical honesty, MC, and continued IC, and whatever else she needs. Truthfully the 2nd time around I think the FWS needs to do all the Plan Aing behavior. He would need to woo her back big time.

Owl, as far as telling the kids, I believe that they should be told if he moves out. If he ends the A, and is willing to do the above, I'm not sure they need to have the gory details. She made her H sit down with them, with her, last week to tell them they are having problems right now, so it won't be a total shock if they split up. The teen yrs are a very vulnerable period for kids to go trhough a D let alone deal with infidelity. JMHO here. It's a hard call to make.

Please keep giving your thoughts here. I greatly appreciate it.

I would concur with BobP and Owl on this. Serial cheaters are another breed all together.

CV,

""I have mixed feeling about the whole thing since he's done this twice.""

That you or she knows of.

""difficult for me to understand how a FWS could do this again after witnessing the pain the 1st time around""

"" He also is showing no remorse.""

Selfish, self-centered obsession for self-gratification.

Can you say serial cheater??

""She wants to tell him tonight to move out when he gets back. She is tired of the pain, ""

That is why God invented PLAN B!!!

Let the scumbag leave like nothing has happened....then...

Change the locks. Go hugely dark!! EXPOSE to one and all!! PRACTICE SHOCK AND AWE!!! She has to go BALISTIC on his a$$. How dare he treat her with such disregard and disrepect!!??

Fool me once you a-hole, shame on you, fool me twice and I'll rip your fricken' HEAD OFF!!!

Mr. Pure said it best ""abject surrender by him or kick the bum out"".

My plan says ""abject surrender by him or NEVER LET HIM BACK IN YOUR HOUSE AND LIFE!!""

IMHO

kirk

MK, I do agree with what you wrote. Yet, I also told my SIL that I have seen people recover good Ms even after 2 As. I think it is essential that much is required of the FWS when more than one A is involved. I also think the BS has to seriously ask themselves if he/she wants to dedicate another 2 to 5 yrs to recover from this again. My SIL's feelings for her H aren't dead yet, and she is trying to save her family for her children. Plus a D would really effect her financially. However, she is ready to take action. I just e-mailed her this. What do you all think of what I just wrote her?

"Something to maybe consider. I'm just throwing this out there. Instead of saying anything to him tonight or tomorrow morning, why not let him go and use the time to gain greater clarity. You can still kick him out when he gets home. With him gone you can post on MB, read Harley's book, contact a D attorney if you need to, etc. You see what I mean? I'm not saying that is what you should do, just something to consider. Call me if you need to."

Well, my kids were 15 and 17 at the time of my wife's EA. (two sets of twins...four kids)

And on d-day, when my wife was all set to leave and go live with OM (whom she'd never met), I told her point blank that SHE would have to sit and tell them what she was doing...since this was her choice. They were as angry as you'd imagine...told her that what she was doing was wrong, and that they wouldn't support her decision. They told her that they loved her...but would NEVER love OM or accept him. They also told her that she could choose to leave, but that they were staying here.

They handled it very well, at least to my opinion. My daughter had some definite issues with my wife for several weeks even after my wife made her choice to stay, but we worked through those.

It depends a lot on the maturity of the kids, too. Knowing your niece, you'd have a better handle on that rather than any of us. Just giving you my thoughts.

CV,

I'm not in the "pro" league, sorry. I have, however, recovered from multiple betrayals.

My husband had several ONS early on in our marriage. He moved out, and at the time, I essentially did a Plan B (although at the time I had no idea that's what I did). We reconciled, and had 28 years of good marriage.

He's had a more recent affair. He figured that I would kick him to the curb this time around, and much to my (and his) surprise, I didn't.

I would certainly tell your SIL to expose, either way, because if she wants to keep him then exposure works in her favor to break up the affair, and if she doesn't it works in her favor for divorce. He needs to understand that there is NO refuge for himself, especially this second time around.

Plus, her children are both old enough and probably have already pretty much figured out SOMETHING is going on. She needs to do spin control there anyway, as well as consider some pre-emptive counseling given their ages depending on what her decision is.

I think I would have his things packed and ready for him to leave, and have the kids somewhere else when he gets back so that they are not there when we talked. When he got back, I would calmly sit him down, tell him that I was not sure that I wanted him in my life, that I had exposed to OWH, the children, and our family/friends.

I would ask him what he had to offer ME.

And see what his answer was.

Then, based on what his answer was, I would go from there.

OWL, I absolutely think that the kids need to be told the truth in just the way you did it, if the WS is going to leave the M for the OP. In my case I didn't tell my boys because H did fire and dump the OW as soon as I gave him the choice to leave or dump her. If my H would have strung me along the world would have known about his A.

SB, it's good to hear from someone who understands these multiple As also. As far as the kids knowing anything, during the conversation last week her 16 yr old was clueless about any problems, and the 19 yr old was more curious and probably knows something is up, but not infidelity or a possible D.

CV55,

With serial cheaters (and my husband was one), I recommend exposure, consulting an attorney to protect her finances, and Plan B. Second time around, the ante goes WAY up for staying in the marriage. Conditions for reconciliation must be stringent and completed before any thought of your SIL investing any more energy trying to meet needs or change herself. From experience.....multiple affairs rob you of your dignity and worth....Plan B is the only way to preserve those things without filing for divorce.

Those who know my stic know my M didn't survive and recover, however I did surviuce and I am recovering...

Being Single isn't great. but it is way better then the former ******... As daddy said better to be alone then in bad company...

not a pro here, I vote for termination with extreme, prejudice (non voilent kind)...

CV, just my 2 cents worth.

Scorched earth exposure to everyone that matters to WH.

Exposure to the kids included.

Send him packing, change the locks.

On his way out, give him a Plan B letter, including what her bullet points are for a way back in the door.

He doesn't need a 2x4 to get his attention, he needs a brick in the balls.

Make sure she reads SAA and understand Plan B, and begins reading here, and coming for support.

PS...my first post for weeks <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

SD

star, excellent post.

Jim, I couldn't agree with you more.

"Being Single isn't great. but it is way better then the former ******... As daddy said better to be alone then in bad company..."

SD, always great to hear from you my friend. This is the SIL who because of her own experience with infidelity had A-dar regarding H and OW. She sent H a letter and gave him the book "Not Just friends." Of course he was too fogged out to even respond. Then, when H's business was falling apart, OW would be leaving shortly, she went in to train with OW so she could take over temorarily. Very difficult being around an OW I'm sure. She was very supportive.

Anyway, so far it seems the consensus is an immediate Plan B, and let him work his butt off to get back into her life. Seriously SD, can you even imagine doing all that Plan A crap again for a 2nd time around? I don't think so!

Unfortunately she can't get on her computer. She is supposed to call me soon. I am hoping she doesn't talk to him before he leaves so she can calm down and just make her plan. Thanks much to everyone here!

CV, I am so sorry for her pain. Having one so close to you, knowing what you have been through, who helped and supported you is horrible.

Nope, there would be no second round of Plan A in my life. Not even one thought of it. No B, either. I'd do a full exposure to my in-laws, because I didn't before, and file for a divorce without even thinking about it.

I hope this isn't giving you a bunch of triggers to deal with. Wish her well for me.

Back into the shadows...
SD

CV,

Exposure to the children will put their support and her support in better perspective. The children already know enough. Her 'hiding' to protect them is doing more harm than good. Right now they s/b banding together to fight the A as a family.

She needs to finish plan A and g/t plan B as soon as her mind and heart are in sync and her finances are secured.

Expect the OW to try to take away what belongs to the family. She doesn't just want the WS, she wants the BS' title, $$ and property. This makes her dangerous.

Have SIL do the reading of SAA, HNHN (Harley) & LMBT (Dobson), then do the EN questionnaire. This will ready her for a call to Steve for a plan.

She has you and her family for support. She also needs to see a doctor to make sure she stays in control.

Prepare her for WS babble. Teach her the technique to combat it. Remember reverse babble? She is gonna need to be smooth at it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

CV - what did they actually DO to recover the first time?

I agree with Star*fish as well.

SD, did I catch you before you snuck off into the shadows? As far as triggers, my SIL was concerned before telling me that I would worry about this happening to me again. I wasn't really triggered initially, just felt really bad about it. Maybe on some level, a day or 2 later, I had a mild reaction. Now I'm just really pissed off at the stupid a$$ BIL.

I did have a funny thought about H yesterday. I've been explaining how I'm helping SIL, Plan B, warning her not to let her H know about MB, etc. I thought, "Crap, if I ever need to do a Plan B H will be so on to me now." Like you, I can't picture doing any of this again. I guess you never know until this happens. Did we ever think we'd do this a 1st time around?

Thanks for your response Orchid. You wrote:

"She needs to finish plan A and g/t plan B as soon as her mind and heart are in sync and her finances are secured."

Orchid, I told her yesterday it might take her a week or more to get everything in order if she decides to Plan B.

"Expect the OW to try to take away what belongs to the family. She doesn't just want the WS, she wants the BS' title, $$ and property. This makes her dangerous."

SIL knows OW's address and says it sound like a very ritsy part of town. Plus, this is totally long distance. They met at a convention or something. Pure LA LA Land fantasy. Is BIL going to leave his family, pick up and move to another state now? Will OW leave her whole life and move here? HELLLLLOOOOO! Reality check stupid people! SIL found a text message where he says something ridiculous to OW like, "I'm thinking about you and it rhymes with corny!" Are these friggin people in As for real? If it all wasn't so sad it would by hysterical.

"Have SIL do the reading of SAA, HNHN (Harley) & LMBT (Dobson), then do the EN questionnaire. This will ready her for a call to Steve for a plan."

Orchid, do you think the 2nd time through this the BS needs to focus on the whole EN meeting thing again? I really would be curious what Dr. harley thinks about this if there's a 2nd A. Anyone know?

"Prepare her for WS babble. Teach her the technique to combat it. Remember reverse babble? She is gonna need to be smooth at it."

I was telling her about your reverse babble techniques, which is why I hoped you would post. I was explaining it to H yesterday and was about to give him an example using him as the example while he was an alien. He stopped me and said, "Please don't use me as an example." Darn, I had so many good examples to choose from!

Hi Bigkahuna! You asked:

"CV - what did they actually DO to recover the first time?"

Hopefully SIL will be able to come here today since her H is away now and she can answer that herself. I know they went to MC. I think they did a marriage encounter. She did tell me the 1st time around he thanked her for saving his life and was repulsed by the OW. Truthfully I don't think he did his own individual work, which is why he is self-medicating once again with an A.

Well keep those comments coming! If SIL decides to Plan B I know she will have lots of questions for all of you.

CV,

I am not a pro and I would way both personally and M recovering, not recovered. However, I have gone through this twice, many years apart.

I didn't have counseling, we didn't go through MC, so neither of us learned from the first time, it was swept under the rug as we both are CA's. I agree that the behavior that makes it ok in the mind of a WH to do this more than once is a character and personality flaw. In our sitch I am quite certain, w/o having proof, that my FWH behavior between the 2 A's was one where he didn't protect the M and certainly crossed the line many times. So IMHO, the WH needs to do a lot of personal work in order to earn the FWH title.

Now this M is between 2 people. Your SIL needs to understand herself as to why recovery wasn't all that it should have been. She needs to own why she didn't communicate boundaries to her WH and most importantly, what is she going to do now. She isn't responsible for her H to have another A, I am not saying that, but she may be in enabling his behavior. For instance, not telling her children. I understan why, you don't want to cause your children pain, but believe me, they already feel it. They may have put two and two together by now. Talking about this out loud in the open is the best lesson she can give to her children, the alternative is that they learn to not talk about painful, uncomfortable subjects and we all know this isn't good. Her WH caused the pain, she should not own that, she needs to do the best for herself and her kids. The truth is always the best alternative. I too thought I was protecting my kids so I didn't tell them and I didn't want to them to think badly about their father. The oldest one guessed and asked me out right,the middle one read jounal of ours as he couldn't figure out what was going on but knew something was, my youngest knew something as well and didn't ask. The thing is, not talking or doing something about it makes it less real, and as you can see by my sons example only one asked outright as we, by example, taught them to be CA's as well. The A is real, it is her WH's bad choice, the responsibility and consequences are his. All your SIL can do is to make the best decisiouns in a bad situation. It takes strength, courage, and integrity as well as prayer.

My FWH "promised" to never have another A the first time around. I now know that this isn't where my focus should be, only on what I will do if he does, which is all I can control. My FWH now knows very clearly what I will do, he did not the first time around. Remember, we teach others how to treat ourselves.

I wish her the best and will send a prayer for her and her children