I started a new post because I didn't want to hijack... and we may get a few others posting opinions on this....

"I must say I raise an eyebrow when I see a man who is 40 and he hasn't been married."

The question is why????....

First...let me clarify, raising an eyebrow doesn't mean that I think this man is any thing less of a man.

Second...raising an eyebrow doesn't mean that I'm choosing to not let this man go to heaven...perhaps just not be my date...I said perhaps.

Third...Ultimate judgement rests with the big guy...I won't debate that...however WE ALL JUDGE to some extent...at least discern..."do I want this mate, or this one?"

Fourth...I can speak only from my narrow minded, limited point of view and experiences...so that being said

Fifth...I naturally,instinctually (sp.) wanted to have a husband and children. I didn't know much else about myself when I was young...except that I wanted to love and increase it in a safe place...I wanted to a fantastic wife and fantastic mother...NOTHING...could have been more important to me...(Now you can see why my divorce was such a smack in the face, but that is another post)

Sixth...Given my desire it is difficult for me to truly understand after so many years why would someone else not desire what I see as so fundamental.

Now I can break down my own arguement...what is fundamental, why can't I walk in another's shoes,...sorry folks...we can have empathy and compassion but still might not "relate."

These are things that might run through my mind..."has he been a player?" "is he just too selfish?" "Can't commit?" "Can't open up and establish a lasting connection?"....for what ever the causes...it doesn't matter in that I'm looking for a potential mate...I can't fix someone who is selfish, afraid to commit, afraid to open, or just wants SF.

So there...I let it all hang out...for better or worse...

OK...let me have it.

Lamplight

PS: This is NOT to say that all those 40+ guys aren't worth it...oh contrare, mon frere...I'm willing to ponder the idea that they are actually, possibly coming into the BEST mate to be with...for a lot of reasons...I'm just growing and talking out loud...

One...They may know how to be good in the SF world

Two...As someone said...you don't have to contend with an x and their children...I don't think you have to look at it that way...but ok

Three...they've done a lot of living...they're mature, hopefully financially responsible, they know how to care for them selves and live alone.

Oh the list could go on...

how about some comments...

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I asked my question because I am having a particularly difficult time. I finally (after over a year of quasi dating and 3 years of close friendship) had to tell my 52 year old never married man that I could no longer be just friends with him, that I wanted more and, until he wanted that, too, I had to end our friendship. I'm smarting pretty badly because he truly was my best friend....and we work in the same company/building and ran into him today. All I could muster was a faint waive and turn my back on him (we were on an escalator).

Alot of people think he's gay, but he insists he's not....which is why I'm wondering what else is preventing him from making a decision one way or the other. He won't come out and say he isn't interested in me that way, but he won't say that he is...instead, 3 months ago, he told me to "Wait" and let him take care of a few things and then we'd "visit the subject." He e-mails me and calls me when he's traveling on business or pleasure, regardless of where it is in the world. He brings me small gifts. We go to lunch every week and e-mail/talk through out the workday...or I should say, we did. He just wouldn't move into doing things outside of work on a regular basis. If he had a dinner for work, I was his date. Occasionally, we'd go to a baseball game, including inviting my son to join us once. He just can't seem to move it forward from that, though.

BB

Well...hmmm....What can I say regarding this topic...

As a few girls here know....I've been dating Jim for 2 years...he's 45 and NMNK. We too are best friends. He is a college Music Professor and a Professional Musician. I can tell him ANYTHING. He lets me be me. My kids like him. He usually gives me great advice regarding my kids and the trials they present at times. He knows I'll always listen to his advice but I may or may not take his advice. He'll let me cry when I feel like crying and he's always there to laugh with me.

He's a great person. He's funny. He's very independent. He's a great handyman around the house. He's a man of his word. He owns his own house, car and has a great career. He's well educated and worldly. He's a great cook. He has MS and never "cries" about it, he takes it in stride. He's my hero.

Now on the flip side...why I think he's NMNK
He's an only child. His parents weren't there emotionally for him as a child and even now his mother doesn't show him alot of affection (ie hugs and kisses) although she loves him dearly and does everything she can for him. (His father passed away a few years ago) He dated and lived with a girl for 12 years and she literally wents nutso on him.

The down side of Jim is...He doesn't outright show affection. I've had to learn how to know when he's showing his affection by the things he does for me. Doesn't mean he doesn't love me....he just shows me his love the only way he knows how. At first it was extremely hard for me to understand this as I am completely opposite in how I show my love and affection for someone. Loving people comes naturally...showing love is taught.

For us...it works for now. I'm busy with my kids and work. He's busy with work. I can't do anything (move to where he is, 50 miles from us) for 2 more years because of my son who is adament about staying where we are until he finishes high school. My daughter is okay with moving. There are days I get frustrated but it passes and life goes on.

Myself being 40 and NMNK would NEVER work! Hense the reason I've been married and divorced twice and have two wonderful gorgeous kids...hehehe. I say to each their own...

Everyone who is older and NMNK has their OWN reason(s)...who are we to put the magnifying glass above them.

Que Sera, Sera,
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours, to see

I am past 40. I have 2 teenagers. I have a learning disability which I share with my 2 children. I don't know how well a NMNK man my age would deal with all this.

A man who has had a wife and had children might, MIGHT, have a better understanding of how two children can be so different.

Now, if I had given birth to those children when my peers were giving birth to theirs and they were in college now, it might be a different story.

BB...thank you for not beating me up. I understand your quandry and feel for you. I know the feeling, yet as hard as it can be...I think taking a break like you have is a very good step...if after 3 years you wanted more and he was unmotivated to move in that direction...well YOU, yes YOU, did the difficult and necessary part to part ways. It is not easy and admire your strength and courage!

I have to say if your asking me for something a little more in depth...I'm going to tell you...I don't relate well to folks who are content to stay on the bone and never get into the marrow. It isn't my way.

We all speak from experience. I'm all about "sucking the marrow" out of life...being fully engaged...I want to live...and how a person "feels alive" is what matters.

I'm bipolar...it is controlled...however, I have come to understand that, compared to the general public I feel and I sense things at a deeper level..be it high or low. Some say unlucky me...and this can be true...now at this stage I also can say lucky me.

I want to be with someone who isn't afraid to "get their hands dirty." God knows...I know...that God will clean all. It is ok to dance, take risks, and be VERY open, you're beautiful...the only thing you have to loose is not having lived fully and therefore being loved fully. I would like to find someone like me in that way...so...um...now you understand better where I am coming from. What "works" for me...isn't what may work for you...of course, you know that already.

I wish you the very best...as a girlfriend I would say...trust your instinct, and don't "think" about his "whys?" it doesn't matter...his actions are saying it all. If it doesn't feel right...it isn't.

Lamplight <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Wow! LWP and Green Eyes, between the two of you, I have rethought my whole position on my situation. Both of you said things that really struck home to me and caused me to ask, "What are his actions?" His actions indicate to me (and everyone else who knows us, even as far as the Manager of the Starbucks in our building) that he cares very deeply for me. His actions tell me that I am more than just a friend.

Green Eyes also added, "The down side of Jim is...He doesn't outright show affection. I've had to learn how to know when he's showing his affection by the things he does for me. Doesn't mean he doesn't love me....he just shows me his love the only way he knows how. At first it was extremely hard for me to understand this as I am completely opposite in how I show my love and affection for someone. Loving people comes naturally...showing love is taught."


This very much describes my friend. He is awkward to the point of being like a teenager when it comes to women. He has had one serious relationship that I know of. It was an engagement when he was 30. A mutual friend of ours who has known both of us for years feels that he is scared because of lack of experience and socially inept when it comes to relationships, so he doesn't know what to do.

Above all else, he truly is my best friend. Basis what my "gut" has been telling me and the wise insights both you ladies gave me. I have initiated an IM conversation with him. He has not responded, yet, to my initial volley....time will tell.

Many thanks to both of you.

Brit's Brat

I'm hardly one to give advise, but recently I was hit on by such a man. I'm nowhere near ready to start dating but since the wedding ring came off, there has been some interest. Considering I haven't dated in 17+ years, I'm sure I don't understand the rules anymore. But this guy left me with a very strong feeling about what I might look for when the time is right. And I definitely think that it will be someone who has been married before. True, there could be ex's to contend with and possibly resentful children. To comment on some of the OP's excellent insights (with respect to my recent encounter):



The 40+ NMNK guy seemed to have no comprehension of how marriage is different from having a GF/BF. I explained my situation to him - mostly to let him know that I am *NOT* in the market for another relationship. He tried to "console" me by sharing his sob story about how his last GF broke up with him on the phone and how that is much worse. Basically, he had no clue to the nature or severity of my pain. Not a fault really if you haven't been through separation or divorce, but seeing as I have, this is a big con to me. In essence, it is this:



As for some of the pro's mentioned:



In the sense that they may have had more partners, this could be true, but they have also had more potential to contract disease as well. Also, they may not have been with someone long enough to really and truly get to know them and learn how to provide SF (generally one-night stands or short term sexual relationships are selfish).



Maybe - but any potential new mate of mine will have to contend with my ex and child so even this percieved problem could be another point in common that we have.



What put me off that guy the most was the sense that he was immature. Sure, he lives alone in a house that he owns. I haven't seen the house - it could be a mansion and perhaps he has servants even (doubt this but I certainly didn't hang around to get this much info). But he scoffed at the fact that I was unavailable due to various commitments I had - my son, some renovations I'm doing at my house and a good friend of mine. Perhaps he was trying to "sell" me on single life but demonstrating the wonders of freedom and lack of restriction - but it came across to me as selfishness and neediness. Definitely not maturity.

After the encounter, I firmly decided that when I get to the dating stage, I will stick to separated/divorced men. Mostly because the people I have connected with the most since my D-day are also separated or divorced - and that includes both men and women. Maybe as the pain subsides, that strong connection will as well. But meeting this NMNK guy has definitely convinced me that I can't possibly find common ground with such a person. Though the situation left me rather frustrated - I'm not even ready to be hit on let alone actively date - I do feel that this particular insight I've gained is valuable and perhaps made the uncomfortable afternoon worthwhile.

One guy I went out with...we clicked in many ways, common interests, both dumped by our spouses, mutual friends, etc.

He and his ex went X-mas shopping together for the kids. I couldn't believe what they came home with. They bought EVERYTHING. All big ticket items too. To me, it was crazy. I said, "wow do you do this every Christmas?". He was a little sheepish and blamed it on his ex. haha. I realized that would be another thing to reconcile if the relationship proceeded.

It was an eye opening experience and one that gives credence to Harley's theory that blended families are a reason so many second marriages fail.

I am not saying do not date a divorced person w/kids. Nor I am advocating only going out w/NMNKs. Just don't rule out someone simply because they haven't met the person they want to share the rest of their life with.

And Tabby,the simple fact that a guy was hitting on a married woman whose H just left the house is reason enough to discount him. He's either a player or desperate.

Hi folks,

This thread seems to have died, but since there is so little action on this sub-forum, it's still only midway down the page.

Perhaps I can put myself on exibit as a rare (apparently) specimine.

I married my ex-wife (only wife, to be clear) when I was 40. She was the only person (I would have said woman but some people might get strange ideas) that I had dated. She is the only person with whom I've had an intimate relationship.

I'm shy.

I'm not stupid.
I'm not poor.
I'm not a drunkard or a drug user.
I'm certainly not a womanizer.
I'm not selfish (I put my ex-wife's nephew through college).
I don't keep company with revolting friends.
I don't hunt (not that I have anything against it).
I don't watch sports.
I have a good job.
I go to church most weeks.
I have hair (on my head).
I'm financially (and otherwise) responsible.
I change diapers (if needed).
I cook sometimes.
I rarely drool.
Every once in a while I speak a complete sentence.

I'm just shy. That's all. Well, and 40lb overweight.

Oh, and I'm definitely lonely - and definitely (even now) want a family.

-AD

Yes, AD, but you are no longer NM (just NK).

You will be a catch for someone, the right one. And you have likely learned alot from your marriage and from MB.
So, why arent' you posting your personals like others on MB?

I'm glad this thread was resurrected as well - I keep thinking about it. Perhaps a lot of my opinion is based on where I am at right now. I have not yet stabilized from my separation so I'm still riding the roller coaster. The people I've identified with the most are those that have been in the same situation - especially those who have gone through it recently. My own son is grown and living on his own (leaving me childless in a way), but I still identify with other parents better than those without kids.

Will my opinions change as my emotions settle down? Or will I always feel an extra bond with those who have had this similar experience?

Hmmm... This is an interesting topic. Of course, it was all from the female perspective. I have heard that many women begin to get suspicious if a man is much past his mid-30s and has never been married... along the lines of "if he wasn't good enough for someone when he was in his prime, do I really want to risk investing in this totally unknown quantity?"

As a guy, when I first heard this, and before I went through my break-up, I always puzzled over this thinking that if a man was divorced, it must mean that he's proven that he's failed at marriage at least once. This was, of course, before I truly grasped that one party loving the other simply is not enough to make a marriage work. I do believe that there is still a lot of prejudice (especially in religious camps) against people who've been divorced.

I'll probably really upset some with what I'm going to say next, but I thought it might be worth throwing out for comment and to aid in general understanding.

As for me (mid-30s male, in the final throws of my divorce and custodial parent to 3 DDs), I have a distinct aversion to previously married (divorced) women, and especially women with children at home. I know, it's really unfair, but here's why:

1. Blended families are tough. I know this, and I know that when a family is blended on both sides, it's all the tougher. I don't want to put my kids through that, and I don't want to have to deal with 2X the issues I know I'll have if my future bride is NMNK. Even if she is divorced but NK, I guess I'll feel a bit gun-shy, and generally suspect that there are probably at least a bunch of emotional wounds that I don't know if I will be able to assist with healing.

2. The only woman I was ever with, intimately, was my stbxw, and, although until she became unfaithful, she always complimented me on my SF skills, I really am a bit uncertain as to how I stack up. When my wife left, one of her complaints was that the other men were SOOOO much better in bed than me. Personally, I don't want the competition. I don't want my bride scoring me against a potential list of accomplished previous lovers in her head, so if she's inexperienced (dare I hope, a virgin), then she won't have a backlog of experiences to rate me against.

3. When I married my stbxw, I was a teenager. I never dated much. I had been socially inept (I probably still am), and I fell madly in love with the first girl who really seemed to like me. (There are a lot of underlying issues there that really are not germane to this discussion.) She certainly wasn't ugly. She was attractive, and even now is not exactly ugly, but she was NEVER "hot," though when we were together, I always adored her because my affection for her was not dependent on her looks. That said, I want a "hot" girl. I really do. I want to be totally turned on by just the sight of her. I know that's a little shallow of me, especially since I know that once I've decided to love a woman, I will love her without regard to her appearance. But still, I want her to be hot.

4. I think I want to have at least one more child. I don't want to have a zoo, and I already have 3 kids... So, if my bride has even one child, one more from me would imply at least 5 kids in the household. That's a lot. Also, if she already has her own kids, I suspect that she may be less inclined to want more children.

5. I want her to be willing to truly join her life to mine. The longer she's been on her own, the more independent she will be, and the harder it will be, from what I've read, to get used to really being a single marital unit. So, relatively young has an advantage in my book for this reason, too.

So... I am shopping for a younger bride, or I expect that the woman I hope to marry will be younger when the time is right. I guess this has some real negative potential as well. Maturity could be an issue in someone much younger. But, my stbxw is older than me, and she's not demonstrated much maturity lately, so maybe there's no solid correlation between age and maturity.

Oh well... to sum up, I guess I'm probably one of the annoying guys that really disgust most women on this forum... I'm hoping to find a woman who is hot, young (mid-20s to 30), and without (much) prior baggage (emotional or biological). And, I suppose it's about as selfish as anyone's list of wants, but that's why they're called "wants", I think.

WBF

ummm...

to the person who said they would only date separate/divorce men:

Dating separated men, men who are still married, is participating in adultery isn't it?

I thought this site was opposed to adultery?

And why in the world would you want to even consider an adulterer as a good candidate for a relationship?!?!?

Meremortal, that would have been me. I'm having difficulty with the terminology since the laws where I live seem to be quite a bit difference. Separation is the actual legal battleground that most people here describe as their divorce proceedings. The divorce doesn't come until at least a year after the separation and many people don't even bother with it. Why? Because it's good for nothing except to get remarried. All of the other details - custody, division of property, and being legally recognized as separate individuals rather than joined in matrimony, - are decided in the separation agreement either by the parties involved, mediators (laywers) or a judge. The divorce is a noncontested piece of paper that you walk into the city hall and apply to for a fee. Basically, the SA holds the weight. With it, I cannot claim benefits under my WH's health plan. He can't hold me responsible for any debts. I do not automatically inherit anything of his if he dies. I am not the next of kin. The D is just a legal formality to get remarried. Not really sure where adultery begins and ends in this, nor when he becomes an X (see my poll in the other thread). It's tricky to even call him STBXH since God only knows how soon it will be.

I have learned the hard way. I only date women who have been married at least once, and preferably have had kids. No marriage plus no kids usually means a person who has not learned the art of compromise and-or is looking for perfection. I am not perfect.

amen auto!!!

Dating NMNK is very hard at times