I don't even know where to begin...

About 2 years ago I first found MarriageBuilders, and I thought it would be just what my wife and I needed... But she was too far gone, and though she stuck around for a while, she never wanted the marriage to work, and only stayed so that she could say, "See, I tried, but it just couldn't be saved."

Anyway, I'm not here to re-hash all of that. My divorce was supposed to be final a few weeks ago, but a scheduling conflict came up at the court and the divorce was put off again... The good news is that it means that my children will be in school before the divorce is actually final, and that with the fact that I'm still in the family home, and the children have stayed with me and with this as their primary residence the entire time should be fairly conclusive as to what's in their best interests.

Anyway... I'm back on now, but a bit less open about personally identifying information because my stbxw is trying to dig up dirt on me just because she wants to justify her own infidelity and desertion.

So, here I am. More than a year of being single, but still married. (Those of you who want to get high-and-mighty about the distinction can hold your tongue... those of you who have been cast into a situation where a divorce is going to happen despite any and every attempt to seek some way to reconcile understand exactly what I meant.) In the interim, I have been waiting for freedom from the torture of my dying marriage, and trying to be a good example to my children. I did, however, strike-up a pen-pal relationship with someone very far away. I thought it was safe since this young lady was so far away as to not pose a risk of an inappropriate relationship.

Generally, it was a plan that worked. We did eventually meet, and our friendship did grow into an attraction, but because of the distance and the fact that our relationship was almost entirely via email and instant message (some phone, but not much), our constant communication led to a deep connection based on a lot of effort to get to know each other.

However, after my divorce was postponed due to the above-mentioned scheduling conflict at the court, my new friend's patience and faith that we should have any sort of relationship came to an end... (note, this wasn't the first time the divorce was supposed to happen but didn't due to the various flip-flops from my stbx and/or court/scheduling issues). So, today, my new friend contacted me to tell me that she is sorry, but doesn't feel that we should pursue a relationship.

Maybe it is all for the best. I'll be honest, I really was looking forward to pursuing a relationship with her. She was dozens of times more attractive than my stbx, or any woman I dated before I married her, but her physical attractiveness was only part of what I found so fascinating about her. Still, if she was "the one" I suppose the fact that we had months of communication already between us would have allowed us to move towards marriage faster than I expect I will possibly be able to do so now.

I know, I know... I'm a typical guy... but I REALLY miss sf. I have forgotten what it is like to be with someone who actually likes you... I would like to believe it's a good experience. Heck, it's been so long that I've nearly forgotten what it's like to be with someone at all even if that person is filled to overflowing with contempt for you...

So, I'm on here, I guess because I don't know who else to talk to. I never have seen dating as a sport. I never liked the idea of just going out to sample people. If I find that I liked someone and she seemed to like me, I would date her to develop a relationship.

I guess the pain of this break-up is less than when my wife left, but in some ways it's more painful. The young lady and I hadn't really been through any bad times - other than the protracted "pre-dating" period we've been in because my divorce isn't final, so there wasn't really any back-log of pain in the relationship as a basis. We met on a religious website because of our similar beliefs, and those beliefs are what are most important to us, and she just didn't believe that pursuing a relationship with me was what God had in mind for her... I can't fault her for following her conviction.

Still, today is a rather miserable day for me.

All in all, I know I'm far better prepared to maintain a loving relationship than at any point when my wife was here. I know I've grown a lot, and I thought I was ready for, at least, the preliminary "get to know her deeply" stage of a new relationship, but I still hate the up-and-down nature of relationships when there's not a solid commitment based in faith in something other than feeling.

Any words of wisdom would be great.

Is there a consensus as to how long a fellow should go before pursuing a new serious relationship?

well, i don't have any words of wisdom... and i cannot give you a timeline as to when you should look for a serious relationship. only you know when you should. just make sure you are as healthy as you can be to pursue something serious.

i like that "dating for sport" and "not into using dating as sampling what is out there" comment. that is me as well. if i find someone that i tremendously enjoy being with, that i really click with, etc, i have absolutely no reason to want to date anyone else. why would i? if i am perfectly happy dating who i am dating why in the world would i want to date anyone else. just makes sense to me. maybe not everyone agrees but that is just how i am. i see no point in dating this one and that one when this one is making me quite happy.

i think you can date someone and be "serious" without having to label it that way. just go out and enjoy eachother and enjoy spending time together. and if you only like to date one person at a time just make sure who you are dating is on the same page you are because if they are not it can cause you a world of hurt. it is ok if they are not, but if you like to only date one at a time, you probably need someone who feels the same. i know that is how i am.

sorry your friendship ended, i am sorry for you pain. take some time to heal.

mlhb

at least you realize that as unique adults, we all can make our own decisions. . . and since you were not really a free person, i would agree with the other person's decision. . . you are not ready nor will be ready on someone else's time table, so you have to go. . ..

you put yourself in a tenuous situation at best, a high risk to lose position. its like betting on the river when you need exactly one specific card. . . not likely to succeed. .. but desperation strategy. . .

wiftty

Wow, wiffty, you're cold. I would hate to be your date and get caught in traffic on the way to the restaurant... Supposed to meet at 8:00... at 8:01, you're out the door.

WBF

I think maybe you need to slow down just a bit and protect your heart. It takes some time after a M ends to truly be recovered. The standard wisdom is 1 year for every 5 years you were M. This isn't set in stone. It's just what the folks who keep track of these kinds of things recommend. I think they see enough relationships that failed due to the D person not taking the time to truly get back on their feet.
Perhaps your pen-pal realized that maybe the timing isn't right, since you are only a year out (single but not D yet) and you really aren't past the D. Perhaps her beliefs make it hard for her to think of pursuing your R any further because you aren't legally free and that conflicts with her values. I'm just supposing-I don't really know. I would be concerned if it were me in the pen-pal's shoes.

I hear a few things in your first post that you should maybe consider. You were already thinking that since you had months of communication that you might be able to move towards M faster than you can now with this woman if she was "the one". That's a lot of unspoken expectation. JMHO

I would perhaps pull the reins back and maybe just involved in some new activities within your church and/or community.

Johnstwin,

I hear you. In fact, I've heard similar admonitions to wait 1 for every X years of marriage before. While I understand the logic and rationale to it, it still seems like adding insult to injury. The WS gets to go and enjoy whatever she wants. True, her relationships are, from what I've read, more likely to end in disappointment than mine would be, but still... Nobody tells she ought to avoid other relationships at all. But me... the one who was faithful and was left behind, I'm the one who's supposed to wait for 3 to 5 years before I even begin to look.

It just seems manifestly, profoundly, and in all other ways, unfair. Perhaps you're right. Perhaps I'm not "ready" for a new relationship. Perhaps, but still I know I'm better equipped now than ever before.

As for whether there was much in the way of unspoken expectations, I think the answer is no. We strove to keep our lines of communication clear. That was vital as there is so much geographic distance that we didn't want to add unnecessary emotional distance.

Since I wrote the original post, I was able to have a "goodbye" conversation with my friend. Her choice was not out of frustration with me, but because she had begun to believe that, perhaps God was telling her to step back from the relationship through the delays in my divorce's finality. She also admitted that she had begun to realize the magnitude of change that would be required (an international move) to be with me, and she wasn't sure if she was ready to commit to that. We cried, and prayed together one last time, and I gave her my blessing.

I still have a small flicker of hope that by letting the relationship end on a positive note, that perhaps time will allow her to realize she does have that strength for such a move and by the time she realizes that, my divorce will be final. Maybe I'm being too hopeful.

As for moving faster towards M with my friend than with some unknown person, I suppose you're right. I would hate to think that I would run to the first woman who would take me in re-bound and make a commitment to her that I would later regret. So the months of communication were about making sure that there was a person that I could love for the long-run. I want to get to know the woman I do eventually marry well enough to gage her character. That takes time.

But, thank you. I do appreciate your input.

WBF

WBF, I understand how it feels "unfair", but it's not a rule, it's a recommendation based on averages and likelihood of success. It's advice meant to give you perspective rather than blaming yourself when a relationship doesn't work out ~ maybe it's not you or her, but the situation. Only you know when you're ready to move on. I've been through 2 R's since my XH left 6 1/2 years ago because I thought I was ready. Maybe I was, but 2 more "failed" R's has only made it more difficult to risk trying again.

if you can't tell the difference between a relationship and a date, then as i said, you are puting yourself in tenuous positions

wiftty

wiftty, I can tell the difference. The point I was making was your harshness surprised me.

wbf, you OBVIOUSLY don't know wifty too well!

he is brutally honest with this opinions.

don't let anyone coming from there surprise you.
remember, they are just opinions, some based on experience.
anything any of us says is just opinion.

take away what works and just leave the rest.

no one is out to condemn you.

mlhb

"honesty" should never be used as the cloak for cruelty.

Everyone is, from time to time, in-artful in the way we express something, but that's not the same. My stbxw loved to say hurtful things, and follow it with, "I'm just being honest," as if that made it proper to say what she said.

Yes, from time to time, a person needs to deal with uncomfortable truths, but conveying that truth doesn't need to be a means to inflict additional pain.

wiftty spoke of "tenuous positions". It's true that the fact that my D was (and still) is not final does create a hurdle, but every relationship where one dares to risk vulnerability is by definition a tenuous position. The risk is the other's character. Character is like an iceberg... there's probably much more than you know below the surface. So, for my part, I dared to risk getting to know my new friend's iceberg, and attempting to probe below the surface, and in that way mitigate my risks. Indeed, one of her positive traits is why she chose to end the relationship - that is she wants to follow the Lord's leading in her life and is willing to err on the side of trying.

In short, if you show me a human relationship without any risk, I will show you one not worth having.

wbf,

you can try and rationalize away the differences, and the exceptions, and your situation as a special case. . . . you can try to spin the situation into a positive one for yourself. read the introduction or the first chapter of "A Road Less Travelled", which highlights the example of one's own desires to be a special class, especially when perceived to be unfairly treated, as if your situation has never happened before, and is a special situation in the world. . .

the future is uncertain, life is uncertain. . . so if you try to play too much of the uncertainty, you can get disappointed. . . I have been there both relationship wise and financially. . . .

so learn from your mistakes, and consider the failed long distance relationship or second relationship, a great learning situation. If you learn about yourself from your losses and mistakes, then learn why and fix the lack of judgement, then you will become a worthy person for another relationship. . .

cruel, i don't think so. . .

wiftty

I think there’s an article somewhere on this site about what happens in long-distance relationships. LDRs can be a LOT like affairs in that they dwell in a very limited reality. In neither do you get the opportunity to see the person at their worst or during the everyday, mundane, day-to-day life. I know you, WBF, said you worked hard communicating and getting to know each other. However, what do the communication experts say? 60-70% of all information is communicated non-verbally. Can you tell if someone is lying to you through their written words? Unless you have fact to contradict the lie, you really can’t. But, when someone is lying to you face to face, you stand a much better chance of detecting dishonesty. I’m not saying this woman was lying to you, just providing an example of how emails, letters, texting and even phone calls are not enough. Meeting once or twice is not enough.

WBF, picking a LDR may be a sign that you really aren’t ready to have a serious relationship. Wanting to shorten the time frame to get married is also a red flag. (By the by, I certain would tell any WS that they shouldn’t be in any relationships either. WS have even more reason to be on their own, figuring out how they managed to mess up to very badly.)

I don’t know that you need to wait 3 years to date, but you should slow down.

WTF... I understand completely where you are at. I know the feeling of being in "limbo"... wanting to move on, but really can't yet. On the one hand, you know the past relationship is over and cannot be mended, but the paperwork is not yet completed. On the otherhand, you want to get on with your life. Waiting is hard. I for one hate waiting. I want to move on as well, but can't. I think that in the end, you shouldn't start reading a new book until the old one is finished. Your children are the ones who really need you now. They need you to be grounded in some sort of every-day routine, and in reality. Stay in the here-and-now with them. The time for moving on will come soon enough. That's the best advice I can give to both of us.

GG,

I'll certainly accept your insight. I do agree, and I recognize that the LDR had the "limited reality" aspect, as well. I'm not making excuses...

I liked it for a couple of reasons. I don't want to mess-up. I want to save myself for my next bride, and I also don't want to bring her into the lives of my children until I know her character very well, and have a good reason to believe that she won't be a short-term part of our lives. I guess the idea of an LDR felt like a relatively safe option for those reasons. The other thing, I guess, is that I'd gotten a lot of judgmental responses from domestic women. As if because I was GOING through a divorce, I was a leper. When my divorce is final, it won't be much better. I guess, the thing is that I one of the things I'm looking for in a woman is a firm commitment in opposition to divorce, but the women who are opposed to divorce generally won't talk to someone in my situation. With my friend from afar... she didn't hate me for my situation, even though it was ultimately one of the major factors in why she decided to end the relationship. I don't fault her for her choice. The way she treated me, over-all, reflected more grace than anyone else I've ever known.

About the "was she lying," question... I chose not to stress about it. Not that I didn't have my periods of doubt. One of the things I learned from my stbxw is that I can't have faith, even in face-to-face communications that I will get the truth. Being in love is about being vulnerable, and that's why it hurts, and that's why it's so wonderful when it is returned.

Maybe I should slow down. I don't know. I know I could certainly benefit from having an ally. I'm overwhelmed with work and trying to manage my home and being a parent. I don't have anybody "watching my back" and I'm exhausted chasing details. I've never been good at that. What I've always been good at is strategy... big picture problem-solving. I'm actually VERY good at that, but I'm totally exhausted by minutiae. Oh well... I guess I'm whining.

Thanks for letting me vent.

WBF

WBF, Given how you're feeling--that pain is following you--yes, you need to slow down.

One reason women respond negatively when men say they're going through a divorce is that half the time they're not! It's simply not worth the risk. Then, if you are looking for a woman who is opposed to divorce, how would you expect that woman to react to a still married man? Most likely, she'll look askance at you. If your divorce had been going on for over 2 years, maybe 3 years, then I think even a woman opposed to divorce would cut you some slack after she got to know you.

As for the whole issue of knowing someone first... I waited 6 months before I introduced my BF to my children. If I had waited too much longer, it would have meant huge heartache if they hadn't gotten along. Just as grown up don't always like each other, grown ups and children don't always like each other.

I know you said you weren't going to have sex until you got married. You also expressed how much you missed it. Just be doubly carefuly that it's not your hormones talking when you propose to someone.

WBF:
Our friend Wiffty has been on this site for 7 years. He has been constantly here as I have seen many of his posts over the years. He sees people come and people go. He sees people rush into new relationships after a divorce despite us all yelling "Wait! You are moving too fast!" But they all thing "They know what they are doing".... and then he sees people divorcing that second husband/wife after only a couple of years because they were not what the person thought they were at all. And then he sees a person who is twiced divorced.

Moving too fast... LDRs being like an A, sort of... Any number of other things that may be said about how my relationship with my friend was doomed before it began or how it was ill-advised...

Still, I miss her.

This week has been about the most stressful week I've had since I learned my stbxw was cheating on me a couple years ago. Vastly different reasons, of course, but the stress has been unbearable, and I desperately miss having my friend to talk to, share my heart with, and trust. My "friends" (law partners) have shown their dedication to be only as deep as their own interests, and left me holding the bag. Without those friends, and without my special friend... Carrying the load is lonely and heavy, indeed.

WBF

WBF,

Take heart. You are not alone. I just re-entered the dating scene myself but online stuff can really mess you up. If you read my thread, you'll see that I got quite attached to someone,with out having even met, just by his looks,and the fun daily e-mails we had. I was so ready to start over after doing all the right things, waiting and healing,putting my kids first,etc,etc.

I rushed right out the gate and now we don't e-mail. The idea of meeting sent him away. As AGG said, it's not worth it then to me but it's taken some time to let go of all those happy feelings I had when talking to him and seeing his face. I put all my eggs in his basket thinking he could be the one to become deeply involved with. How dumb right? We hadn't even met yet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Lesson learned.

I think though if we had kept on e-mailing, I would have definitely become more involved on my end and could have been set up for a big fall. So in a way, I'm glad it ended.E-mailing for too long isn't good.You sound like you got very attached too to this woman.Meeting also forms some bonds and maybe they were more present for you than her.

I think in time you will be ok and heal from this set back and,take more time and guard yourself a bit better so this doesn't happen again.I have 2 online things going now myself which sound great,one I am supposed to get together with next weekend but I'm really trying to stay neutral about it all. You see? There will be other women along.You just need to be extra cautious and we will be here to help remind you of that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You'll get variations on responses here. I haven't been here for 7 years like wiffty but I have been here for 4.We all have our own takes on what we read and some opinions are stronger than other's. But I think overall, we do care about what's going on for people who post here ( except OP!)

Anyway, hang in there.Be kind to yourself. This is all a rough road to be on.

wbf, i feel for you.
i have been in an ldr for over a year now.
very recently we have had some very serious ups and downs.

dynamics have now changed and i cannot lie, i miss how things used to be. the daily phone calls, the constant attraction and chase. doesn't mean we won't end up back at that, but for now we both have some work to do internally with the help of our therapists before we can move on any further.

you get a very deep connection when you talk every day. talking to me builds very strong bonds. more so than physically seeing eachother every day.

i understand how hard it is. whether you were ready or not for a relationship, etc, it still makes it hard.

mlhb