Sara:

I would say that you should hold out, but then again, this may be the move that busts up his A.

IMHO, busting up the A should be your priority, and then when the dust settles, you can determine if you want to raise the bar with him.

One thing did stick out in your last two posts, you say he has you on a tight budget, but that he makes extremely good money.

Time to raise the bar in regard to the support you get. Make him uncomfortable. Let him know what his lifestyle is going to be like when he has two homes to support. You don't do that if you settle for scraps.

My advice: go online and find out what child support is for your state and his income, and demand that amount.

Best wishes,

OMWH,

Thanks for your response.

The reason I am on a tight budget is because my WH pays all the bills here, but gives me "grocery" money. This is just enough to buy any food and household items that I may need. He does pick up diapers and other things for the kids if I ask.

If I requested the maximum amount of child support, it would not even be enough to cover the bills that he already pays. I would have to go back to work to make up the difference.

It's sort of an either I let him pay for everything and give me some extra cash, or I request child support and pay the bills myself out of that and go to work.

I would rather stay home with my children for as long as I can.

Ok. Stand tall..chest out..

"I want you to move home so that we can be a family..I want you to move home so that we can be a family...BUT..it is not OK with me for you to continue your relationship with her"..say this over and over to him...There's two parts to this...He's thinking that he can get you to back down...

HE WANTS HIS CAKE AND TO EAT IT TOO...HE WANTS THE BOTH OF YOU...

by the way...he's trying to negotiate a similar scenario with her...I know, YUCK...

Thank you Mimi for giving me some feedback. I really do enjoy reading your posts and value your opinion.

I have not even hinted to my WH that I would allow him to come home under the conditions he gave me. I was throwing out the scenario to you guys to see if I should even entertain the idea in the hopes of breaking up his Affair.

I really don't think my WH would actually come home even if I allowed contact with her. He is doing a pretty awesome job of cake eating right now by coming over here for "family time" then either visiting or calling the OW.

The real development is that he is in total angst right now about our DS. He cries often because he misses him so much. I think the only truly untainted bright spot in my WH's life is spending time with our DS. This is so different from how he was in the first months when he was gone. He couldn't have cared less about seeing our DS and didn't play or interact with him at all.

From what I gather, my WH actually wants to keep the situation the way it is now. He can see his children, the OW, or spend time at our home whenever he chooses. He is accountable to no one.

I am concerned though because he is becoming increasingly demanding about seeing his children whenever he chooses. I have tried to explain to him repeatedly that when parents divorce, the non-custodial parent cannot just get the kids whenever HE wants. I informed him that he would be getting the standard visitation for the children if he chose that route and I would not see or talk to him and would never be his "friend".

He complained that insisting on the standard visitation wasn't fair to our DS and that I was trying to "punish" him because I am upset over his cheating. I replied that it wasn't fair of my WH to leave me and the children for an immoral woman either, but he had no thoughts about that at the time.

So he knows that if he keeps the situation as it is now, even though he is sinking into financial debt, he is in control.

He tries to make me feel guilty (and it works sad to say) that he cannot see his son whenever he wants. It doesn't help matters that my DS cries every night for his dad and I have to see him get upset whenever my WH leaves.

My WH is a the epitome of a "Disney World Dad" that has a new toy for my DS almost every time he sees him. He takes him shopping for clothes, toys, and other fun things. He also plays non-stop with my DS when he has him (something I cannot do since I am taking care of a newborn and of household chores, etc.). So my DS absolutely adores him.

I wondered if it wouldn't be better for everyone (except me of course) to have my WH return home if he was willing to do so. At least it would tick the OW off and possibly make her move away. My DS and DD would have their dad home and I wouldn't experience the stress of trying to calm my son down at night because he misses him. Not to mention that having him home would keep me from being terribly lonely in the evenings.

Alright..done rambling.

I do think you and MM are correct about not allowing my WH to come home without meeting my requirements. It's just difficult to be so hard-nosed about it considering all the benefits that could occur if it actually worked out.

Thanks again for your input. I really do appreciate it.

THE best decision your WH could make would be to stop all contact with the OW, agree to mc, then move home. This is what would be best for all involved.

Your WH moving back home while still in contact with the OW, still unrepentant and of the wayward mindset, still cake-eating is at best a far, far, far distant 2nd best.

Actually, in the long run it's probably not even that but only 3rd best, with you and your children building a new life without WH being 2nd best.

Your WH has plenty of reasons he wants to come home right now. Allow those reasons to do their work on HIM - not on YOU.

He WILL NOT stop the adultery and recommit to your marriage if he doesn't have to. If you allow him to come home now you are caving to his cake-eating and effectively taking the BEST option off the table all together.

BTW, he won't even appreciate it because waywards feel entitled to cake-eat. And he certainly won't respect you for it.

Stay strong. Don't settle.

Thanks MM,

You are right. I won't allow him to come home until he meets my requirements.

I am just trying different options since nothing I've done so far has seemed to change anything.

I've tried to do an intermittent plan A, a 2 week plan B and (unfortunately) I've even done 2 plan FU's without actually saying "FU". I cannot seem to stick to anything and this is probably making the situation worse.

My WH doesn't respect me now at all. He thinks that my willingness to give him another chance after all he's done makes me (and I am quoting him here) a "Jerry Springer Wife"...meaning that no matter what he does, I will take him back.

I feel complete and utter humiliation that he's even cheated on me and continues to do so.

Even his stupid OW (pardon my unChristian assessment)is mocking me (though indirectly) on her myspace page by making my WH her only friend and alluding to things on it that my WH and I have discussed in the past.

I really feel horrible about everything right now.

I want to do a dark plan B, but I think that this will just make my WH more angry at me and prevent any hope of reconciliation. He doesn't get over things when he thinks people have "wronged" him. Which is why he cannot fathom why I would take him back.

I also think that if I don't see or talk to him, I will stop loving him as a wife because I will have given up on the relationship.

It will be just too difficult to arrange visitations whenever my WH wants to see the kids because I can't get an intermediary to do it that often. It is just easier to be here for them. If I start limiting the time, then I have to hear how I am hurting my DS by not letting my WH see him.

..it's just so awful.

I don't know...I feel very stuck right now.

Alright..I don't really know what to do now.

Had a nice long talk with my WH last night..told him basically I'm done. I can't keep going on like this and I'm tired of all the drama.

I said that as soon as I find a job, I am going to file for divorce since I really don't want to be married to him anymore because of what he continues to do.

He finally admitted to me last night that he thinks OW#2 (his childhood crush) is "cute" and would date her too, except he feels too "guilty already". I assume this means that he would be ok with cheating on me again with someone else during our "time apart", but doesn't want to risk his relationship with OW#1 quite yet.

I asked him why he hasn't filed already since he feels that 99% of the time our relationship wouldn't work if he came home. He said because divorcing me "could be a mistake" and he would miss his children...yet he continues on with cheating anyway.

He also said that maybe in a YEAR he might feel differently and want to come home, but now there's no way. I suppose in fog talk this means I should just hang around and allow him to cheat on me with whoever until he gets tired and wants to come home??? I told him by no means am I waiting a year for him to come home.

So...in light of his blatant and continual disrespect, I really feel I have no option but to actually file.

I've implemented plan B though I really don't think it will do anything but give me peace before I file in a month or two. I couldn't even submit my PBL to him because I feel so humiliated already.

My question is...does anyone see any hope at all in this situation?

I've been praying now for 5 months...nothing seems to be changing. I actually can't even bring myself to ask God to save my marriage because I feel stupid in light of my WH's behavior....Anyone out there been in a similar place?

Seems to me that my WH is turned into a serial cheater right before my eyes.

The only consolation I have right now is that OW#1 was not the soul mate he claimed. If she were, then why else would his adulterous leer be focusing on OW#2?

Anyone want to chime in with some advice? I'm pretty much at my wits end here.

bumpin it up for miss saralynn,

I can't believe you all have ignored this gal. She needs some help, 2x4's etc.

love in Christ,
Miss M

Hello Miss M,

I let out a nice chuckle when I read your bump. Thanks for thinking of me.

I have gone into a pretty dark plan B now. With the exception of sending one long e-mail....yes, I know, e-mails are not plan B, but the situation warranted it I think and it is the last one I am sending.

Just to let you know what has occurred since I reduced the visitation to the "standard"...my WH actually e-mailed my Pastor in an attempt to get him to reason with me about letting him see his kids more.

My WH's e-mail went something like this:

Mr. So and So,

My wife is a member of your church and considers herself a devout Christian. I am not a Christian. I have recently committed adultery and hurt her very deeply. We have a two year old son and a 2 month old daughter. My wife is not letting me see my children very often (twice a week) - even though I miss and love them very much. She claims she is "shielding them" from me because I am a "horrible person".

From a worldly perspective, I have been a very good father and have never given her any reason for her not to trust me with the kids. It seems she withholds them when she gets upset. I realize this is horrible situation that I have caused - but I want her to be civil with me and be fair with me seeing the children.

Is there anything in the bible that supports her stance on me not seeing my children?"


To which my Pastor (gotta love this guy) replied:

Dear WH,

I'm grieved to hear of the trauma in your home and marriage. I know it must be painful. The short answer to your question about your wife's position of not letting you see your kids as often as you would like, in light of your recent adultery, is that the Bible is silent on custody issues.

It does however require the death penalty for adultery (in the Old Testament, (Exodus 20:14; Leviticus 20:10; Proverbs 6:32). This sin is particularly evil because it violates the intimacy of marriage, which is a bond created by God.

So, I suppose that just getting to see your kids a couple of times a week isn't so bad.

My advice (in case you want it) is to repent of the adultery rather than standing on your reputation as a good father or quoting the Bible to your wife about how she ought to trust you. Christians are normally forgiving people, but it helps when the perpetrator has really repented before God. You should go to God with this. He is gracious and may give your family back to you.

Pastor So and So

Isn't my Pastor great??

So, in order to stave off any misunderstandings about why I was reducing visitation, I simply let my WH know that I was doing what was best for my son, it has nothing to do with getting my WH back for anything. I let him know it was not good for a 2 year old to be out every evening or even every other evening and gone over night from home.

This is the type of visitation he wants and anything less turns him into a roaring lion. I guess he will see when the state sets that same visitation schedule in writing.

Anyway.

I am still feeling pretty done with the marriage right now. I probably plan A'd (or whatever you wanna call what I did) too long.

Even if my WH was totally repentant over his adultery,
I still don't know if I could take him back at this point. The idea is sort of disgusting to me right now.

But you never know how you will feel if the situation were to actually change and go well for a long while, so I can never say never.

After all, God CAN do amazing things.

SO PROUD of you Sara!

It's about time your WH gives up getting to see his children (and you) anytime he wants. I picked up on that attitude of entitlement in your WH immediately as my WXH had the same boundary issue wih me and my daughters. It's as if some WS's really expect to have just as much access to their home, wife, and children as they would if they didn't commit adultery, move out, and divorce!

Thanks MM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Its amazing how just because he is their father, he feels I should have to endure his presence for visits whenever he wants, all for his comfort. His selfishness is astounding.

I was afraid of reducing the visitation for so long, that now that I've weathered the initial storm, I think my fear was actually worse than my WH's reaction.

I do think he has either consulted an attorney or scheduled an appointment to file for divorce now, though.

He stated to me quite a few times that the reason he hadn't filed yet was because he wanted to continue seeing his children. But since I've "prevented" his almost daily visits, he will see no reason to procrastinate.

I'm just so sad that at this point that my marriage is seemingly over. Not that I would ever want him back in his whiny, selfish, WS state. But I think that guy has taken up permanent residence in my H's body. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday was my 5 month DDay anniversary...not a very good thing to remember on the 29th of each month, but I'm sure it will pass with time.

I've been thinking a lot about what sort of things I would like to do with my life when my kids are a little older....it's sad, but I find it hard not to wonder "what would WH think about that?".

It's easy to see in retrospect that spiritual bond that God made between us in marriage. At the time I didn't notice it too much, but now that it has been 'torn assunder' by his adultery, lies, and shutting me out of his life entirely, I can remember the feeling and I mourn the loss of it.

I really feel that my WH has moved on from me now and the life he once had. He is feeling free and enjoys coming and going while being accountable to no one. He is living the life he's always wanted. Now if he could find a way to get full custody of his son, I think he would be completely happy.

Anyway.

I am relieved to be in Plan B now though. It helps not having to see him all the time. Even my DS seems to be less agitated. Peace has finally returned to my home.

Though it scared me to do it, I am glad to be off the roller coaster ride.

Hello Saralynn77,

I know what you must be going through. When we first separated, my WH wanted to come and see our DS at whatever time he wanted, even at 11pm at night, that is not a very good visiting hour for a 1 year old child. Like you, I was afraid of what his reaction would be if I stopped him from coming and going whenever he pleased.
It's hard at first, especially when you remind yourself of all the nice memories that both of you shared during marriage. But you have to understand being in a rollercoaster of emotions hurts more.
Things will begin to fall into place, leave all your worries in God's hands and begin to move on with your life. I've learned that WH don't care about no one at this moment, so YOU have to take care of YOURSELF and your children.
Be strong, that is all I can really say. Don't let him get to you, because that is what they want to do. Don't let him have you and the OW. I know its not the right thing to do, but I'm letting her have my WH. Apparently if she is making him more happier than I did, then maybe I deserve someone who will value me for who I am and for what I'm worth.
Remember, God has a plan for each and everyone of us. It's only for the BEST! Have a good weekend!

Hi Saralynn77

My DDay was a 29th too. March 29th. And exactly 1 year later it became the day my chemo ended so it will have a new meaning when it rolls around. I see that as God redeeming the day for me.

I think it will be a real surprise to your WH that once he starts working through the D process, he still won't be able to have daily visits with his kids. It will be very scheduled.

Oh well-as Bugs Bunny is so fond of saying "What a maroon."

I LOVED your pastor's letter - what a guy!!!!!!!!!!!

Cali,

I know what you mean about letting them go. That's sort of what plan B does I think, lets them play out the relationship and see that it wasn't as great as they thought. They do take a huge risk though by abusing their BW with their horrible WH behavior, though. They will be so shocked to find that we are not there waiting at the door for them after they realize what fools they've been.

Its sad that they throw away a real life filled with love for a immoral fantasy.

Johnstwin,

I'm so glad to hear that you can now assign a different meaning to that day. I am hoping that God will do the same thing for me. Maybe it will be my next wedding anniversary day with either a repentant and reborn FWH or just a new and an actual Christian one! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I do think that my WH believes he can get more frequent visitations than the standard that I've been implementing.

In one of his e-mails to me he said the "State" was more compassionate than my Pastor or myself. So I really do feel I am headed for a court battle.

I'm sure it will all work out in the end though.

But I thank you for the encouragement!


Believer,

I agree, my Pastor has quite a way with words! It was not the "meek and mild" response my WH was hoping for... more like a huge 2X4.

Too bad it didn't knock some sense into him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hi Saralynn
I don't have better advice for you than the great people who have already posted but wanted to say that I have read through your story and think that you are a fantastic person.

One or two things resonated for me when I read the story from the beginning.

Like you, I am married to a man that has a rotten father. What I did not realise was the extent to which sons model their relationship behavior on their fathers and that, by rejecting his father as a role model, it was very hard for my husband to commit to being a parent himself.

The wheels fell off finally when my second child was born only a year after the first. I was the breadwinner and he refused to go near them. I was totally desperate and considered a separation or divorce with mandated visits as the only way he would engage.

To this day, I harbour deep anger towards my MIL who could have told me at any time what the problem was so that we could have got parenting support but she chose to keep her mouth shut so I did not know. H was in denial and his father was by then dead.

If there is one light in your story, it is that the estrangement has taught your husband how to engage with his son and you have been amazingly unselfish in the way you have allowed him to also bond with his new daughter.

If your marriage does not survive, at least you will know that the battle has given your children a father. Good luck to you!

Sara I just wanted to add that as far as I know NO STATE or court has granted a WH visitation rights that basically amount to being able to drop by any time he wants. He may get more than two days of visitation per week, BUT there will be some sort of time limit and schedule. In the end, the visitation schedule laid down by a judge or negotiated through a mediator will be a LOT closer to the visitation schedule you've set up than to what your WH was expecting.

I do want to caution you that maybe having allowed your WH so much unrestricted access previously may have set some 'precedence'? I don't know if that relates to visitation though... have never heard it applied to visitation before. Just in case, stick to your new visitation schedule. If your WH agrees to follow the new visitation schedule maybe it will set precedence that will work against him demanding boundary-less visitation?

My WH was so delusional in his entitlement demands that he actually yelled at me once that "the judge is going to tell you to knock it off" in reference to WH demanding to have me come along for visitation days! I laughed at him (LBing?) and told him no judge was going to give him visitation rights with his X-wife! Don't worry about your WH's posing as confident that he will get his way with this.
Him filing for divorce as a punishment for you setting up a reasonable boundary in order to do what's best for your child was lame and immature... and typical of the WS mentality. And anyway, he might have filed eventaully anyway and STILL demanded limitless visitation for after the divorce (that's what my WH thought he was going to get).

Your WH thinks he's @ a poker table with you. And he's mostly bluffing because he knows you hold some pretty high hands Sara. You have more power in this situation than you've exercised up to now. IMHO when you do go to a dark Plan B and stay there it will be very effective @ spoiling the fun of his newfound bachelor-boy lifestyle. I wouldn't worry too much about him getting full custody of your son, it's doubtful your WH would want full-time parentign to interfere with his bachelor lifestyle.

Oh and him writing that letter to your pastor was hilariously delusional IMHO! The poor dude actually expected your pastor to chastise you and tell you to allow your adulterous WH to cake-eat? LOL BTW, LOVED your pastor's response! With TOO MANY pastors failing to speak up against adultery your pastor is GREAT!

LTA,

Thank you for the well wishes <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

It is difficult when your H's father is a poor role model. What is strange in my case, was that my WH seemed to be the opposite of his father in many ways. He was very responsible (at least with paying bills and keeping a job),with the only similarity being that my WH did not seem to want to grow up.

What's weird is that he was actually more responsible before we had children. With the birth of my son, he seemed to feel tied down and was very unwilling to help me with him at all. I was not "allowed" to go anywhere after he was born. I changed all the diapers when I was home, handled all the feedings, baths etc. And got up with him each time he woke up at night (at least until I stopped breast feeding then my WH had no excuse not to get up). It's not that I minded doing that, but it would have been nice to have help.

I also had to work part-time for insurance when my DS was 4 months old and so my WH watched him most times, but the rest of the time I couldn't go anywhere alone for fun.

Even wanting to go to church one day a week was too much and my WH would actually pick a fight with me if I mentioned wanting to go.

I remember one time my mother and I were going to church and we missed the early service. So we went bowling until the next service began...my WH was livid that I did not tell him what I was doing and was a whole 15 minutes late in getting home.

What's strange is that he complained that one of the reasons he stopped loving me was that I never let him go anywhere, when in reality he was the only one who could ever go places alone.

So this attitude of being upset at not seeing his son is very new.

It's not that I don't want to believe that my WH's motives are pure in regard to wanting to see his son, but they are just so different from what I've seen so far. I think it is more in line with him being denied something that gives him pleasure.

I also think it makes his OW admire him for being such a "good" father. She complained to my WH about her XBF not wanting to care for their daughter and for just being an all around irresponsible guy.

So his umbrage at not seeing his son is, IMO, based on the fact that the OW gives him praise for his desire to be a good father and for standing up to a spiteful, scorned wife who is trying to keep him from his children.

She even forwarded an article to my WH about "fair" visitation to give to me.

I found this especially ironic since she let her XBF move away to North Carolina to find a job to support her and her daughter, knowing she had no intention of following him because she had already formed an attachment my WH.

I guess it was ok for her to limit visitations by putting thousands of miles between her daughter and her father, but not ok for me to reduce my WH's visits to 1 evening and 1 over night a week.

Whatever.



MM,

I do think he will get more than the standard visitation, but like you said, it won't be by much.

He has not even requested to see his daughter at all yet. I'm sure it's because I informed him I would not be here for those visits. So don't know how that will affect any visitation decisions made by a judge.

Do you think I should increase the visits a little?

Limiting them was a very difficult decision for me because I do see the importance of having a father who is there for his children. He is well aware of my feelings about that too which is why he was so shocked I would put my foot down and reduce it so much.

What kills me is that I feel my hand is forced in this situation because for my own sanity, I cannot continue to see my WH all the time and know he is cheating on me and has no intention of coming home. So I had to remove myself from the equation. Unfortunately that meant that my children would, by default, see my WH less as well.

I do not want them to see him less, but I can't be leaving my home all the time and I really don't want my son gone either.

It's very difficult to wade through all this. I think I will almost be relieved when it's settled in court and I won't have to worry anymore. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

The magic moment for me came when I met someone whose father had died when he was very tiny leaving him to be brought up in a (very loving) all female household. By the time I knew him he was a father of two lovey grown up boys both of whom had families of their own but his wife told me that he had had to go to parenting classes when they were small as he had no idea of what the proper role of a father might be.

At that point a little lightbulb switched on in my head and some careful questioning of H's sister made me understand that FIL had been a terrible parent and openly cheated on MIL.

By then, years had passed and my children were no longer tiny and I was no longer the sole breadwinner so it was all too late. Only recently have I discovered how too late as I found out that he also started cheating at that time.:-(

If your WS is afraid, then this bonding with his son might be the very thing he most needs to start to heal.