My WS had an EA that turned physical one time and then I discovered what had happened. The OP has not been in contact with my WS for more than 45 days now, but my WS has tried to contact repeatedly, maintaining that no closure can be had unless the two of them have another talk.

I'm currently trying to implement Plan A, but it's very difficult due to the lack of reciprocation and even acceptance of loving gestures. The rejection can sometimes make it unbearable.

But I've also read that Plan B is only to be implemented in the case of an ongoing affair. So what about my situation? Where the affair is over and there is NC, but WS is still ambivalent and indecisive?

Is the OM married? Has the affair been exposed?

Does she EVER see or talk to the OM?

This is an important question Mel is asking, BHHFSGuy.

Does the OM have a wife and does she know?

One of the things that killed my wife's feelings toward the OM in her second PA was seeing how quickly he turned on her and blamed her for the affair to his wife. She was furious he shared all their intimate secrets with his wife and dropped my wife like a bad habit (oh, a bad bit of irony).

If he does have a wife, she needs to know. This may redirect some of his anger back at your wife. He may tell his wife some things that you don't know.

Your wife is in withdrawal. It may take some time.

Unfortunately, she still craves whatever she got from this POS OM (feelings, rush, thrill, etc).

You need to step up the monitoring, clearly. You need full accountability of her time, contacts and communication.

I'm sorry that it's so rough. It is tough to Plan A when you aren't getting your needs met and you know your wife is missing some POS OM and not focusing on you.

Unfortunately, doing the right thing in this case sucks.

Hang in there, BHHFSGuy.

Do you have kids?

Blessings

In May and June of 2005 I was reading on MB but not yet posting. I sent my wife a link by email to a thread on MB I thought she'd be interested in and shortly thereafter my then wayward wife started posting. Interesting thing is...her situation correlates to your wifes. OM had abruptly ended the affair and she really wanted closure and was having a difficult time with withdrawal. She believed strongly she wanted to save the marriage but was "stuck" and couldn't progress UNLESS she could get closure with OM. Today...she firmly believes, and I'm speaking for her...that such attitude and belief was a crock of crap.

Assuming your wife is actually in no contact and you don't mind giving up your forum for support here (which if you had already posted a bunch...I usually tell posters to NOT direct their wayward spouse her until well into recovery)...then, maybe you could email her a link to one of my wife's first threads about wanting closure with OM in the hopes it will hit a chord and get her reading MB stuff and maybe even posting.

Here is the link --- > Mrs. Wondering's "needing closure" thread

I haven't read through it in quite awhile so you may want to read it first to see if it's really that applicable. It's best if the story really relates. Mrs. Wondering and I have recovered and if your wife gets interested in her story she can use the search function and really follow along with my wife's progress after July, 2005 through today and see that things really can get better. She CAN fall in love with you again. It's not hopeless.

Good luck to you,

Mr. Wondering

BHHFS, here is a really good "closure" letter that Dr. Harley recommends. It should be written together and mailed by you with a cc to the OM's wife, if any:

Dr. Harley's (From SAA)

(OP), I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk with you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that (BS) did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay (BS) for the pain I have caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she�s been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.
Sincerely,
(WS)

Is Plan B is order???

NO WAY.

Plan A is designed to bust up the affair. HOW the affair ends is of no concern. My wife's OM ended and I'm still tickled pink that he did it. Busting up the affair is step one. Now...hopefully, no contact sticks as your wife doesn't really want it. Neither did mine. In my opinion, you are at a crossroads where mere patience is the only thing you need.

This can go two ways:

1. OM breaks NC and resumes the affair - Very bad news. These rekindled affairs are VERY tough nuts to break up. They seemingly, within their trite little "soulmate" addictions to just completely lose it within this "love lost" and refound dynamic. Some OM's even know how to play this little trick to the hilt. Hopefully, the OM in your situation truly has ended it and is moving on. (Even so...if you have not exposed to his spouse...you must).

2. OM maintains NC (or maybe breaks it only to confirm absolutely that he's done and leave him alone...as our OM did). She seems to fixate on this closure issue but she does it WITH YOU. YOU get to sit there and talk to her and support her. YOU are still Plan A'ing her...meeting the needs she will let you meet...spending time with her, etc.
This will be the most difficult time of your life as you are essentially supporting her "heartbreak". It will take months for her to process and realize how wrong she was but when she does...boy, will she internalize just how much you must really love her to put up with THAT.

You can't MAKE her see that closure is pointless, mean and irrational. You can't make her do anything. Hopefully, no contact will continue and, in time, the fog can only clear. Stick to the do's and don't and just listen to her.

I don't know if this makes it easier but imagine your wife had an addiction to CRACK and not OM. How would you treat her then as she withdraws from her addiction to CRACK. You would expect her to be irrational. You would expect her to miss the crackpipe. You would hold her hand and merely wait out the withdrawal before really getting to recovery. This is no different. Her affair had NOTHING to do with you. It's a huge knock on your ego...no doubt but you must be strong and confident (or at least appear strong and confidant) as you support your wife through this difficult time. The dividends will come later for you and your children (I'm assuming you have some).

Mr. Wondering

The OM is not married, but does live with a longtime (7-8 years) girlfriend. I called her to expose and she did not believe me. She told me that my wife was a liar and that her boyfriend would never cross the line. When I informed my WS about this contact, she was very upset with me. I'm confused about No LBs during Plan A because it seems like informing AP's girlfriend is a LB. It got me kicked out of the bedroom that night (and since).

No, OM lives 50 minutes away and doesn't answer her phone calls or reply to her messages.

I'm conflicted about this also. I have been trying to monitor her communications secretly and when she discovered as much she was upset at the loss of privacy and felt like I was trying to trap her. So it seems like another LB. Dr. Harley specifically noted there should be no dishonesty. But how can I monitor without being dishonest?

No, thankfully. No offense meant to those who have kids, just that I'm grateful I don't have to involve them in this.

BHHFs,

Big kudos on notifying the OMGF...move back into your bedroom, 'k? She can choose not to sleep there...her choice.

Has your WW really chosen the marriage?

Take MrW's and Mel's No Contact letter and ask her if she would right one. You can call it a closure letter. Be sure to send it together, registered to OM.

Withdrawal really sucks. Can you provide proof to OM GF? You said that your WW has continued to try to contact the OM for 65 days (I added time since your first post)...records would be cell call records, emails, copies of notes or letters...this would be proof.

Veryify NC in every way possible, 'k? That's for you to know the truth...not just accept she says there hasn't been any.

You don't need to inform your WW about contacting OMGF...

And that wasn't an LB...for now, determine the Love Busters as AO's, DJs, SDs, Lying and IBs. Don't do those, 'k?

You can love bust your WW...do not LB your real wife.

There's a difference.

Are you guys in counseling? Have you done the EN Questionnaires? The LB questionnaire? How about the RC inventory...great stuff for those 20 hours of UA a week Harley advises you do right now.

Are you limiting the relationship conversations to less than an hour a week?

She's craving a fantasy, BHHF...please choose to believe that, like Artor said. She's mourning the loss of all those feelings, the rush...not a real guy.

You're real.

LA

P.S. She didn't lose privacy...she lost her ability to deceive you. You cannot trap her. You can know the truth of her actions (her choices) or choose not to know the truth and live in assumption and fantasy. Don't join her. She lives there right now. No dishonesty in a healthy, recovered marriage, BHHF. You are on that road...you're not their yet. She's in withdrawal from the drug of an affair right now. Monitoring is living from truth...she broke marital trust...she can rebuild it through transparency, remorse and commitment. You verifying demonstrates your commitment to the marriage and recovery.

Dr. Harley ADVOCATES SNOOPING. Radical honesty is something that is practiced in recovery. You are not in recovery. Your wife is being dishonest with you. People who have nothing to hide, do not hide. It is not "dishonest" to CATCH your wife having an affair, it is your JOB.

No one has the right to the privacy to destroy you behind your back.

BHHFS, do you have some evidence of the affair that you can share with the OM's GF to convince her of the truth of the affair?

It is not a lovebuster to expose your wife's affair. Here is a list of lovebusters:

Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

And how did your wife kick you out of your own bed? Is she bigger than you? Did she beat you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dr. Harley:

"For an unfaithful spouse to engage in an affair without detection, two separate lives must be created, one for the lover and one for the spouse. A certain amount of dishonesty is required in both of them, but the major deception is with the spouse.

So one of the most common clues of an affair is an unwillingness to let a spouse investigate all aspects of life. If two lives are necessary for an affair, and if a spouse is curious enough, the secret second life is relatively easy to discover. Difficulty in getting a spouse to talk about events of the day can be a sign of trying to hide the second life.

One of the most common smoke-screens used by unfaithful spouses is to express shock that their spouse would be so distrusting as to ask questions about their secret second life. They try to make it seem as if such questions are an affront to their dignity, and a sign of incredible disrespect. They figure that the best defense is a good offense, and so they try to make their spouses feel guilty about asking too many questions.

I am a firm believer in letting each spouse do as much snooping around as they want. Nothing should be kept secret in marriage, and no questions should be left unanswered. If a spouse objects to such scrutiny, what might he or she be hiding? "

Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?
entire article at:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

My wife for MONTHS wanted to contact OM to apologise. Took a long time for that desire to die.

I told her that I had screen captures of e-mails that my WW sent to her best friend mentioning that night and the kissing. Also that I had cell phone records showing the two of them had called each other that night.

However, she knew that OM was with my WW at our home because she had called him while he was there and he told her as much.

Basically, my evidence was not good enough to her because it all stemmed from my wife's deluded mind and I had nothing from OM.

She told me she would ask him about it when she got home that night. I told her that she was welcome to contact me in the future if she needed to ask questions.

Well, you've done your part in letting her know. You can't make her see what she refuses to see. If she's not willing to fight for her relationship with him, there's nothing you can do.

I WOULD continue to fight on your end. I would make it crystal clear to your wife that NC means NC FOR LIFE. There's no need for "closure contact". Over means OVER. Actually, I'd tell her that its clear that he made his choice...and she needs to realize that this was the best choice for all of you anyway.

I'd also continue your plan A efforts. "Be there" for her...be someone she can talk to about what she's feeling, what she's going through. Try to LISTEN without judgement, and without letting what she says hurt you for now. Try to spend some fun recreational time with her as well.

Do you know if she's got old pictures/texts/IM's/emails for OM that she's clinging to? If so, try to get rid of them. Try to 'wean her off' of OM.

Hang in there for now...try to nurse her through withdrawl with your own taker locked up for now. Eventually, as long as NC remains established, she WILL come out of it. KEEP UP YOUR SPYING...you MUST know for sure that NC is in place!

Not fully, no. She is basically still at home with me because she feels she has no other choice and is trapped.

I asked her today if she had tried to contact him again and she said she did call him last week and left a message. She is adamant that she will continue to try and contact him because she deserves answers from him.


I'm trying, but she knows I've been snooping. She asked me today if I was going to continue to do so and I said as long as she was not being honest with me. But then she says she is being honest with me. So I'm not really sure what my answer should be to her questioning that.

Dang, too late. I took the 'No Dishonesty' pretty seriously.

That's where I'm confused a little, especially the lying part. If she asks me a specific question about spying, like "How have you read my e-mails?" if I don't tell her, isn't that lying?

I have started seeing a counselor (just got back from 3rd session). She initially refused to do so, citing a bad experience from her childhood. Her view has softened over the weeks and now says she might go if I say it's helping me. My counselor said today he's stuck until she comes in to talk.

When I took her to lunch today I brought up the subject. I asked her to fill it out tonight while I'm gone at a rehearsal. I told her that I want to meet her needs, but I need to know what they are. She seemed wary and replied 'Maybe I don't want my needs met.' I will have to wait until late tonight to see if she did it. She asked questions about it, like 'do you just rank them?' so I have some hope.

Probably not. I try not to initiate, (other than the EN questionaire today at lunch) but she sometimes will, and I feel like if she wants to talk about things it's good and I should engage rather than saying 'Sorry, I think we've talked about it too much this week.'

Well, WW once again called the OM and didn't tell me about it. It had been three whole weeks, so I was starting to feel a little more positive. But I guess now any chance for recovery has been reset to ground zero.

What should I do at this point? I know that Exposure is usually recommended in order to break up the A. But what about in this situation where there is basically no more A, just an ambivalent WW who misses and wants to talk to her "friend" to get some "closure"?

The OM has still not responded to WW in any way for the last two months, so it doesn't seem like any more or additional exposure to his end would be right. Or should I contact him and ask for assistance? Do I need to update OMGF, who didn't even believe me that the two of them had an inappropriate relationship? If I expose to any of WW family, I know she'll just go berserk on me and her BFF will further demonize me. So if I'm going to go the route of exposure I want it to be REALLY well-prepared and effective.

Don't forget that she has never agreed to NC. She has continually insisted that she has to talk to him to get "closure". So in her mind, she hasn't broken any agreement she has with me. Oh, and she says she has a lot of trust issues with me because of my snooping.

Your case is so similar to mine. My WH did not initiate the NC but the OW did. So he wanted very much still to contact her and tried to undo some of the pain he caused her (for getting her labeled as a home breaker for eg).

2 days ago he just told me that he is counting down to the days when he can contact her again after the 1 month deadline which he so one-sidedly thinks I gave (cannot believe the amount of fog that he is in).

I am sorry I can't give you much advice as I am waiting for others to help me too. But just to let you know I totally understand the pain and torture you're going through. Hang in there!