KM -


Ummm....I'm confused. How is Patriot responsible for what SC said and how Frozen reacted to it?

Your post implies that Patriot is being held responsible for things that are not under his control, and that strikes me as counter-productive to the purpose of his thread.

If I missed something obvious, please let me know.

SC's response is typical of a female that thinks she has a clue about men...when she doesn't. I am certain even a man's man is very in touch with his feelings...he may decide to share them or not depending on the person.
KM... I agree with HB... Patriot is not responsible in any way for Frozens reaction. It doesn't mean he isn't doing his job...it means that Froz has a problem with the post.

Precisely.

Kiwi,

As I stated before, it matters not to me what SC's intention was. The post was not okay with me and I am requesting that she stop.

I ususally post on the Forgiveness and INsight from FWS but your definition of P/A really nailed what my husband did to me-sure did me in but at least he is beginning to understand what P/A even means. He definitely showed how mad he could be when I moved out and he sought another.

It is not patriot's job to 'make' frozen trust him or 'make' her feel safe. That is completely up to frozen.

He can eliminate all love busting, trust busting behaviors and yet frozen may never feel safe or trusting of him again.

I'm going to interject here with something Dr. Phil said to a WH who was wondering when (two years after his A) his wife was going to "get over it."

Dr. Phil said "She will NEVER get over it until she believes in her heart that you truly understand how much you have hurt her."

That seems to be it-in a nutshell.

You know something ba109. I've often been shocked by some of the things you say here. I remember you telling Bob Pure that he should have done the job properly when he drove into that tree and I was completely shocked but it actually shocked him out of his "poor me" status and was one of the posts that sent him on the road to recovery. I think with your "tough" talk you are often very right.

However, I think it IS Patriot's job to make Frozen trust him and make her feel safe. It's the only thing a FWS can do and it's the actions that matter.

But.... I think Patriot could do back flips and prostrate himself on the ground forevermore and I still don't think Frozen will ever forgive. Some people don't.

Frozen, what will you do about that?

MEDC, Patriot has ADMITTED here that he doesn't "get" emotions and feelings. If he hadn't said that (somewhere, I don't remember exactly where) I would have kept my mouth shut.

I have been quietly reading this thread and this statement is so spot on for the main reason for many affairs including mine. If you can see this PAT then you are close to seeing the real nuts & bolts of the why. What was hurting you and why you reacted in that particular way .... You may even find now that whatever the hurt was back then makes you scratch your head in puzzlement as you wonder why it hurt you back then at all. It's so often is more about 'us' than what our spouses may or may not have done.

I HATED my H for the perceived hurt he inflicted on 'me' (selfish bit again) and this was a way to hurt him back.
It took a long time for me to admit that to myself even with a lot of IC work. It shames me even now.
I blamed a lot of things except this intention to cause deliberate pain. It also has a lot to do with passive/agressive relationship at the time and some external factors that impacted on both our lives.

Its like building a wall, a few bricks added one at a time until you see no way forward and just want to bash away at the one person you think is responsible. It also helps if they bleed same as you. At least thats the way you think until reality slams you in the face.

I am not at all sure there is ever just one why, but rather a whole load of them. I sometimes wonder at the grace of my H and other BS who forgive and perhaps never truly understand why we chose to decide so selfishly.
My H says 'even saints stuff up and neither of us are in the running for sainthood'.

It haunts me that my H as other BS have to struggle so hard to let go of the pain & hurt, that I can't FIX it, even though I caused it.

It's not a FWS job to make a BS feel safe? Really???

So if my H doesn't want me to spend time with an old male friend of mine because it makes him uncomfortable, I can tell him that's just his problem and he has to deal with it? Just because I had an A doesn't mean that any man is a threat to our M? I don't care that H never liked this person... this is his cross to bear? Bulls$#%!


So I can go out and do things and not tell my H, even if I'm just out with girlfriends having coffee? I'm running a few minutes late, and H is home wondering when I'll be back. When I walk in the door at dinnertime he tells me that it makes him uncomfortable when I'm late and he doesn't know where I am. So what, H will have to get over it... just because I had an A, HE'S the one who needs to work on learning to trust me again and I have no part in needed to help him feel safe.

So I can spontaneously take a 2 hour ride to visit my family on a day off and not tell my H, and when I come home and tell him what I did, he's being irrational when he says he wishes I told him, because he had been calling and emailing me and when I didn't respond it freaked him out? He just needs to learn to trust ME?

Is this what everyone is saying? Because if it is, I certainly don't believe it... I mean, come on! The FWS first job is to make the BS feel safe. Be an open book. No secrets. Tell everything... even if it seems mundane. If something makes the BS uncomfortable, help he or she feel better about it. If the FWS exhibits behavior that the BS doesn't like (independence, overly friendly, etc.) work on changing the freaking behavior. Find out why you're doing it, and change it. It IS the FWS responsibility.

But maybe that's just me, or I'm taking what everyone is saying the wrong way. I certainly hope that's the case, because it really seems counterintuitive and insane to me to say it isn't the FWS job to make their spouse feel comfortable. There is something obviously wrong with a person who has an A, and it is that person's responsibility to figure out why they did it, fix it, and love and protect the person they betrayed in a way that makes he or she feel safe.

katie,

So as not to TJ, see frozens thread.

A WS absolutely has a responsiblity to make his or her BS feel safe.

There is no doubt about it.

As WS who does not demonstrate consistent trustworthy behaviors will not be trusted.

None of us want to be hurt that way again.

PA behavior is particularly sneaky and underhanded - and if Patriot has identified that as his particular form of behavior....it is not a surprise to me that Pat and Froz are still dealing with trust issues.

PA behavior IS about keeping the other person off balance. It is lovebusting as a way of life, while insisting that everything is perfectly normal and fine.

IF this is the problem with Patriot, its perfectly understandable that Froz is still feeling totally off balance all of the time.

That being said however...

I do not think that any WS can jump high enough if a BS does not do the personal healing/recovery work that he or she needs.

It takes 2, imagine that =)

At the end of the day, there was just nothing that my husband could do that would really give me that feeling of complete safety.

Oh his consistent trustworthy behavior helped me a great deal...don't get me wrong...

But at the end of the day, *I* had to deal with my fear.

I had to learn to trust myself. In rebuilding my own self-esteem, I found the confidence to know that I would and could recognize if an affair were to happen again. I found comfort in knowing that *I* would be OK if he did it again, because I now know what to do if it happens. I also learned to not make it all about me. My self esteem no longer depends on what my husband thinks.

Without both pieces in place - the understanding and trustworthy behavior on the part of the WS and the personal recovery on the part of the BS...I don 't think that recovery is possible.

Frozen,

My sincere apology. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I did not not intend for my comment to be fattering to Pat in any way, shape or form. Just my thought on why it's taken him so long to get his sh-- together without being "fishy". The wink was meant for Katie Mae (whom I was addressing at the moment), not Pat.

That said, I can understand why this is a sore spot for you, and I really am sorry it upset you so much. I will be more careful.

--SC

Thank you. This is exactly my point. Not for frozen specifically, but for BS's in general.

PAT,

Thanks for your reply.

My FWH told me much the same that you did, that it didn't have to do with being somebody new, or starting over with someone new - that the whole affair was "just sex" and there were "no emotional entanglements".

I want to tell you something about this. For him, it seemed to reduce the importance of the affair somehow. That it somehow lessened the infraction, because there was not an emotional involvement, and that the issue was "purely a sexual involvement". Therefore, his infraction against me was limited to a sexual infraction.

For me, this made it somehow WORSE. That he was willing to throw away our marriage

for sex.

That I was not worth anything more than casual sex to him.

That in his mind, the risk he took for a piece of a$$ was well worth it - and that the trade, me for that, was fine with him.

I somehow find myself believing that at least if he would have loved her, the trade would have been better? I don't know. At least there would have been more value in this transaction in exchange for me. In this particular trade, I feel like I come out being valuled as worth less than the town whor#.


This rationalization made me feel less than anything else in the world.

Still does.

Just wanted to throw this out to you, FWIW.

SB

Ok, I'm gonna tackle this one because I can see where this may have put some on the offensive.


Orchid: It is his job. He caused the distrust by having an A. It is his job to rebuilt it..... as best as he can.


Orchid: This is true. When Patriot does his best at rebuilding the trust (and I mean his BEST).... and if Froz still can not feel safe nor trusting with him, then it may be that D is the only solution. That is a risk Patriot has to take either way.

Just because a WS becomes a Xws and does good for the rest of his life, it is no guarantee the BS HAS TO forgive and take the Xws back.

My question which I have yet to see address is: What are both Froz and Patriot doing to bring each other closure?

IMHO, until there is closure, no trust c/b rebuilt.

L.

Kiwij....




With all due respect, I think you are making an unfair assumption of Frozen.

If it took this long for Patriot to ask the question "why", I wouldn't trust him either.

It is apparent he hasn't been taking full responsibility for his affair. It sounds like he wanted to shove it under the rug, probably was able to do that because Frozen may have been given advice to "get over it" and "move on".

Trouble is, you can't move on and trust someone until you know...they know... "why" they had an affair in the first place. If you don't know why, then you have no idea where your weaknesses are, so you can protect them. Which means, Frozen probably has been feeling unprotected and unsafe, most likely.



He has also mentioned, I believe, that he is passive-aggressive and a conflict avoider. Please forgive me if I'm wrong Patriot.

P/As and conflict avoiders usually have a hard time expressing their emotions. They have a hard time telling the truth also. If Patriot is anything like my (previously) P/A/Conflict avoiding H, he probably avoids any kind of real, truthful, intimate conversation with Frozen to help her feel safe. Relationships like this will keep you off balance, just as BR mentioned.

Patriot....my H was afraid to tell me things he thought would hurt me. He was also afraid to tell me things about himself that he was ashamed of. He didn't want me to see the real him, so he kept me at a distance.

You have got to let Frozen in Patriot. Show her who you really are. Be intimate with her and you'll be so much happier. RESPECT her enough to let her make up her own mind about how she will feel about you once you open up to her.

My H was brought up not being able to voice or express his emotions. Negative emotions were "kept in check". It kept him from maturing "emotionally". So, he learned how to express his displeasure and unhappiness covertly, and "sideways". Since his displeasure never came out in honest, from the heart conversations, I never knew what was what with us. I always felt in the dark. Completely off balance always. It was enough to make me feel crazy and insane. I STILL doubt my judgement regarding many things because of this.

I kid you not, about three weeks ago, my H actually got upset because I didn't know "when he was telling the truth and when he wasn't". My jaw dropped. My H has spent our lifetime together trying to hide what he didn't want to face and letting me know how he really felt about things. He would say one thing, but his actions didn't match. He would tell me things he thought I'd rather hear, than tell me the truth to avoid conflict. Do you know conflict creates intimacy? It's how you handle the conflict that is important.

I feel like I'm rambling. It's just that I feel like I know where Frozen is coming from, and from where you're coming from Patriot. If I'm way off base, I'm sorry. Maybe someone else reading this thread might find themselves in these words.

You are not wrong Mopey. I have plenty of instances of being both P/A and C/A.

I grew up in a household that was loving, great and all about me. Top of the world.

Then my mother died. I was 9.

Ok.. so traumatic experience. usually a good catalyst for problems later...

Then my father married a woman that had two children already, 9 months older than I, and they had come from a severely abusive home. Really bad. She was a school teacher and they were poor. Very. Dad only had me to take care of, so we didn't do to bad.. but he was still only a blue-collar guy... so it isn't like I had caviar lifestyle-like things going on. He worked hard and we got by.

She saw me as the spoiled well-to-do kid that had never really seen the hard reality of life.

And I think she wanted to make sure I got it.

She threatened me with making Dad side with her at all times. And most of the time he did. She was never interested in hearing my side of the story. So on and so forth. It was extremely hostile to me and my brother and sister didn't get it as hard as I because they were 'her' kids.

So I learned to stay away and that opening up to people was NOT safe.

Not now.

Not ever.

That has been the single biggest reason for my emplacing walls against women I get into relationships with. The Imago folks say you get into relationships to resolve the wounds of your childhood.

I only did it half-[censored]. I got in the relationships all right... but I had no interest it seems in anything other than "just like home" kinds of crap.

And it sucks to look back on all of that behind me and know that I put myself through all of it once I got out of mom and dads house.

I hate that fact.

But, more on topic here.. I was thinking about the why some more.. Something I thought was a factor was awareness.

I never knew of any of thie MB stuff. Love banks, love busters and so on. If you would have told e we are all wired for an affair 10 years ago, I would have blown you off completely. Whatever, I might have said. Not because I didn't really believe it so much.... but because I did even KNOW that analysis of a relationship and such was something even worthwile.

If you do something polite for people but you don't know why, what does that mean? What if you aren't even aware why it IS a good thing? Should you not figure out your motives before you act?? I say yes. If you walk old lady's across the street with their groceries, good for you, but what if the only reason you were doing that is because you saw it on a movie and it seemed like something fun? Poor example, but awareness of what you are doing and WHY you are doing it AT THE TIME of execution is probably something to talk about.

I have values. Hard as that might be to believe for some, I do. Had I been aware of what I was doing and how it was not lined up with my personal values (meaning my behavior in a relationship towards a woman) then maybe that would have been something.

Had I been aware of MB principles, I think it would have made a difference. Had I been aware of the pain it would cause frozen and I, maybe I would have chosen differently.

remember I am talking in terms of why here. I am not trying to shirk one once of responsibility in this matter, but in exploring the why I have to admit not feeling totally aware of relationship innerworkings to a satisfactory degree to even be qualified to participate in them. I sucked at them, pure and simple.

My job to fix that and make myself a much better risk as a partner. I failed to do that. Totally.

And then I coupled that with not really being willing to work on relationship issues. I was totally a freeloader. Relationships were only to serve me for as long as they worked. But, and I laughed when I realized this. Sort of. I rarely ended relationships. THAT would be facing a conflict and hurting someones feelings right??? Breaking up with them would be mean!!! and I can't do that and look like th ebad guy right??

So I would get into relationships and then as thye went sour from my lack of input, it would start to become a prison of my own creation. I would start in a relationship. It would go south. I couldn't get out because I wouldn't do it. Finally she would end it and I would start it over.

And over. and over. Including the relationship prior to Frozen, whom she and I call cinnamon, which was an absolute trainwreck. I was so lonely at that time I would have eated sand and told you it was the most moist cake I had ever tasted. It was really bad for me then. And then Frozen came along and she was really great to me.

And now here we are.

I was not aware of how to do this. I was further conditioned to be P/A, by my OWN doing I think, and so it was just a bad mix to start with.

Maybe that is ridiculous..

I can not tell you how many times I have seen something in MB, Imago or any other program and thought, "Wow, that would have been really helpful in the past during this time" or "No wonder everything goes so bad for me in relationships".

I never knew any of this. And I was too clueless to even look. Blinded by what feels good instead of trying to solve an issue with a long-term solution.

MAybe this is pointless rambling, but it certainly seems to make sense to me.

IF a car own drives a car, thinking they are doing all the right things by changing the oil, filling it with gas and making sure the tires are aired up... only to have the transmission go out because it developed a leak and THAT wasn't being watched because the owner was just completely clueless to its very existance.

Maybe far-fatched. I wonder if it makes sense to someone other than me.

Seems to fall in line with the knowledge is power idea.

Also... and this seems scary...

Steve says we are ALL wired for an affair (yes... even YOU MEDC... sorry... couldn't help it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) but if you didn't KNOW you were wired that way... wouldn't that be pretty dangerous?

Totally not putting any kind of protection up because of ignorance.

ANd that gets dealt with by awareness.

Sorry I haven't posted until now... just been busy and pondering. And busy.

ANd busy

Oh... for the record, I totally beleive in the "cause and effect" workings of a relationship.

It is COMPLETELY my responsibility to exhibit behaviors and actions that so Frozen that I can be trusted and not feared. It is when I am doing those things that she will then be able to actually trust me and not fear me.

Now, if I do EVERYTHING possibly to make myself trustworthy and not to be feared... and frozen STILL does not feel like trusting me or safe... then maybe we do have something that needs looking at on her side.

We aren't in that ballpark yet.

No, this post made more sense to me as "why", then your first which seemed to me to be full of excuses. What you just posted seems more to me to be actual reasons.

You didn't see the big picture before, now you do. Now you look for the big picture, or are starting to.

People lie for one reason and that is fear. You can label behaviors motored by fear as CA or PA, or whatever but fear is the underlying cause.

I will not lie, because quite frankly there is no one on earth I fear enough to lie to. Now that may change, as in to protect my DD from harm, so I won't put it in stone.

I won't get into any sitch I may have to lie about because lieing is so abhorant to me that I can't stomach the thought of having to do it. I think things through now all the way to the logical conclusion.

Patriot, this is what it means to be grown up. Why some people get it early in life and some people get it later in life is something I don't know. Part of lessons to be learned, and we each have own. Mine happened to be in relationships and apparently so does yours and everyone else on this board, BS and WS alike.

Figure out what it is you are scared of in your "CA", "PA" behavior. Think of it as fear, and I have a fealing it will end up being a behavior you cannot tolerate in yourself. That may be enough to change it.

Agreed. So that you CAN be trusted and not feared. It's not something you can 'make' her feel. That is her responsibility. But as frozen has posted, she has already decided when she will feel safe and trusting again...when you are able to exhibit those behaviors and actions in a sincere and consistent manner.