Only a consistent pattern of behavior will make her feel safe.

WE learn from our Past. Right now her past is littered with incidents that make trusting and feeling safe impossible.

Today forward you have the ability to exhibit a constent pattern of behavior tha would make Froz (in the future) be able to feel safe and trust you.

Unfortunately you have to do it today knowing the return on that investment is down the road.

Froz need to be able to look at a past that makes trusting you and feeling safe a reasonable thing to do.

Today is yours to start exhibiting that consistent pattern, IN WORDS, DEEDS AND ACTIONS.

When Froz then has that past as a good future indicator it is then her job to let go of the way distant past and start littl by little trusting and feeling safe.

Pat the onus of course is on you to get there.

Pat,

How's it going?

KM

Hi Pat,

Somethings occurred to me on reading your posts...

SO: Your mum died when you were 9...abandoning you.
Your stepmum, for her own reasons, emotionally abandoned you.

Most of your adult life your relationships with women were shallow.
When you were angry... this came out as P/A behaviour.

What were you angry about? Who were you angry with?

Froz? or your Mum, your stepmum, and women in general?

KM,
Not well this evening I'm afraid. Frozen and I had an argument where I started it with an angry outburst and she ended it by reminding me how I had thrown our relationship away by ****ing some ******.

Not an uncommon argument, honestly.

But, as much as that is NOT ok with me, what can I do about that? I would like to find a solution that is mutually agreeable for both frozen and I. I have been reading the buyers, renters, freeloaders book and I find the buyers agreement very appealing.

Very mature. And I like that. And I see ways for me to do it without it being too much of a struggle, therefore more easily becoming habit.

That said, After reading a few chapters this evening, I came to the realization that I was at best a renter when frozen found me. I was totally willing to sacrifice and expected her to sacrifice for me(let me off the hook for things so I didn't have to change them). Additionally, I was sitting around willing to peruse something better, if it happened to come along. I had some renter qualities.

But I see a portion of why I had an affair in this reading.

I traded in my renter agreement for a freeloader agreement because I was angry about all the sacrificing I was doing. And most of it she had no clue about, if any. Combine the sacrificing, the passive agression, the renter agreement, the FOO issues, the lack of awareness, closed nature towards openness and intimacy and the selfishness and I may as well have been wearing a plastic explosive vest.

I could have screamed jihad and everything...

well.. seriously it was dangerous for me to be toying in relationships. And I am frankly astonished that anyone can work all these issues out without some sort of help...

So, from the above list, what have I done to deal with my weaknesses? For sacrificing, I have been trying POJA, using both my giver and my taker. I understand that they must be balanced. So I am practicing that. It is hard though, because I am not dealing with a buyer most of the time. No excuse though. The passive aggression seems to have gotten quite a bit smaller… mostly due to more openness and some success at POJA. Also, when I am angry about something, I try to get the issue out in the open, even if we don’t resolve it right then. Try,…anyway. Also, trying POJA is a way to try the buyer’s agreement without being a buyer… so I am trying that. Negotiated things like my Army career and dinner and thing in between. Have been doing better since the job incident.

Dealing with passive aggression is a harder nut to crack, but so far it has worked to get feelings out in the open and at least make her aware. Awareness has been very helpful on this one. Maybe I could come up with some more ways to beat this one, but things seem to be working right now.

Renter agreement. Well.. I have freeloader, renter and buyer qualities. Some more than others. I want to be a buyer. So I am reading up on it.

FOO Issues. Not really a plan here.

Lack of awareness. Dealing with that ina number of ways. Posts, reading, talking and learning about MB and other relationship ideals.

There is more to deal with… I will post later

Oh, and on the fight we had, it began because she had asked me to find some way to get her the emails from my work computer so she could see them and know what I was doing. I procrastinated it. She is right to be upset. The attack from her was not welcome, but she had the right to be angry. And I am resolved to fix this issue as soon as I can. Regardless of if she griped about it or not. I am going to fix this tomorrow the best I can. And then she and I can negotiate the remainder going forward about how to deal with this.

Anyway, the truth on the job email thing is she asked for something, and I agreed. And then I procrastinated it and forgot. And then at times I thought of it, it was not so important that I get up right at that moment and del with it. I was selfish and not kind or giving about it. Nor protecting.

So I am fixing the error tomorrow and then going to negotiate how to go forward with it.


I fear I will be shut down in the negotiations. Just an honest fear. I will still POJA for this, though.

Anyway, I am tired. Just thought about some more on my why.

In framing the buyers, renters freeloaders ideas.. it was just enlightening to read about them and see the working of them leading people to certain behaviors.

And I am convinced that this had something to do with me. More on it later.

Pat, I think you're doing a very good job with this. I know how hard it is for you.

FWIW, I'm a passive agressive conflict avoider but then so's my H. We often wonder why we are. We both had EXTREMELY controlling older sisters who were always right and we were always "stupid" or "too young" or just plain "wrong". It sounds like it wasn't much - especially compared to what you went through - but, believe me, years and years of it make you believe it about yourself. We're both convinced that's where our PA/CA traits come from. (I find it interesting we're BOTH very PA/CA).

Our "fights" are silences or skirting around issues or backing down (one or other of us) never facing a conflict.

I'm interested to see where your journey takes you because we need a lot of help in this area as well.

One thing I'm learning is that my opinion counts and I have a right to it.

I think passivity probably had a lot to do with it.

Your descriptions combined with Frozens descriptions contrasted with her posts expressing a lack of pursuit or perceived lack of pursuit makes a pretty compelling case imo that a more [or at least equally] relevant question might be...why were you engaged?

Why were you living with her?

Why were you circumstantially moving in a direction you couldn't commit to with both feet?

Emotional dishonesty certainly must play a significant role for both Frozen [being encouraged to invest in building a future with someone who does not share her desire for that future] and yourself [which people often forget... being passive here sets you up to find yourself where you never wanted to be..more on that later].

That didn't make it into the big book of devious plots due to the obvious design flaw via double edged sword.

This is a large part of the reason that I so adamantly discourage people from marrying partners who were unfaithfull and also why I discourage people from living together and being sexually intimate prior to marriage.

Of course there is the obvious moral issue but as is very often the case there is also direct fallout for trying to rearrange the order against the express instructions of the designer.

We have talked before about how closely tied the personal freedom to say "no" and the ability to wholeheartedly say "yes" really are and your situation is a classic example.

In my opinion you failed to say "no" to an affair because you had not said "yes" to marriage, commitment, and faithfullness with complete investment in Frozen for whatever reason or collection of reasons.

You outed yourself both extravagantly and undeniably with this action.

Frozen outed herself as well because she did sense that something was "off" and likewise failed to halt the presses and say "sorry, but this feels wrong whether it is or not". She did not trust her perceptions which were DEAD on and I don't think she has forgiven herself for that yet.

I see regret more often here at this point than almost anywhere else...that prior to the marriage one or both people involved probably would have chosen to end the relationship rather than continue if it had been casual [and certainly not pursue aggressively] however they have gotten themselves circumstantially more invested than they are fully willing to invest in with the other areas of their lives yet they are also [due to that investment] not willing to suck it up and accept the loss or be the bad guy [the one who declares time of death].

So here you both are living a life that neither of you would have chosen freely ...you being asked to give more than you want to give in many areas and her hating that it is still not your DESIRE to love her the way she wants to be loved.

Let's look at that a moment ok?

You may have a strong compelling desire to have that desire...I'm not saying you don't...I'mm saying that right now today...your desire is NOT to do these things.

I can tell because you keep finding ways around it or building resentment when a way around it isn't forthcoming.

Not much stands between me and a pint of bunny tracks but I can find all sorts of reasons not to clean the gack out of the shower crevices even if I admire pristine ones and truly wished that I did desire it. My unbridled enthusiasm and diligent pursuit exposes me very accurately and so does the lack of it.

So let's separate history [because you are not the same person now that you were at the time of the affair..you are that person PLUS all of the experiences you have had since then] from present tense issues.

Today you both have some of the same decisions to make.

You have the decision about honesty...if you would rather have your tongue nailed to the floor than love her in the way she wants you to then what possible gain is there in failing to be honest about that?

Frozen has the decision about whether to invest in her perception for good or ill and take the gamble and also to be honest about whether she can or is willing to accept the loss of committing to a decision in either direction.

You both have the same opportunity and basically the same losses that you did before you married her to fess up and climb into the drivers seat. I think it's relevant that two years later you are being retained in essentially the same position...I think it is because this question MUST be answered and this lesson MUST be learned or there is no future in this direction.

If it is a discipline issue...that you desire to meet her needs in these heavy conflict areas where you are not compatable but struggle with your flesh and lose [and obviously this goes for her too]...then you really HAVE to begin to study self discipline in earnest because as we have already coverred the truth will out and no one appreciates having their time and their life wasted by insincere posturing. If it is a struggle then let there BE a struggle going on. Put up a fight and in doing so demonstrate your sincerity and intention.

Nope.

The truth on the job e-mail thing is that he took this job behind my back because I told him that I had fears about it.

After the fact, he claimed to be extremely remorseful and said he would do anything to help me feel safe about it.

I asked for transparency regarding work e-mail. I asked if it were possible for me to log on to his work e-mail from another computer and he said that he would find out whether or not that was possible. I also mentioned the idea of forwarding his e-mail to me.

He failed to do either of these things.



That is not forgetting. That is not caring if your spouse suffers as a result of your selfishness.

He also stated that he did not forget about my suggestion to forward the e-mails to me. He said he decided that it would be too much of a hassle.

Can anyone give me a reason why I should continue working on Recovery?

Three years later.

oops..3 years

Can anyone give me a reason why I should continue working on Recovery?

You are not working on recovery. It is evident by the following comment:

[color:"red"] Frozen and I had an argument where I started it with an angry outburst and she ended it by reminding me how I had thrown our relationship away by ****ing some ******.

Not an uncommon argument, honestly.
[/color]

You are still packing the big guns and ready to fire at will. He is paying everyday of his life...whether passively or with these kind of comments. I don't think that you are anywhere at recovery.

The better question might be.... why should HE continue trying?

JMHO
committed

He never started.

I don't want to get into an on-board fight with my wife, but "he never started" is not a true statement.

He hasn't succeeded would be more correct.

Froz,

He's posting. Isn't that starting? Or are his posts worse b/c it reveals his lack of transparancy?

You challenged me to look from my H's POV. Based on his MO re: problem solving, was I expecting too much? (We will discuss your thoughts w/MC today as it is very relevant.)

But it seems you might be missing the same thing in Pat's POV. His PA and CA may get in the way at times, but it seems he is making an effort....at least to me.

My H won't even post....yet.

Ace

Pat,

Awareness is the first step in recovery, and it's great that you're now recognizing PA behavior. It seems as though you've found some useful tools through Harley's books that are helping. I can't remember, but have you been in IC? Are you interested in that?

I grew up in a CA/PA home and have pretty much overcome this behavior with IC and several self-help books: Changes that Heal, The Art of Living Conciously and the Self Esteem Workbook. All have daily exercises in them, which I have been doing for the past two years. It's a lot of work, but they have helped tremendously.

Frozen continues to be incredibly upset with you. While her anger is justified, it certainly doesn't help you change your behaviors, either. While counseling with the Harleys is important, I think it's equally important that you have professional help as well, to work on changing your communication style. It really is very liberating to be able to speak your mind freely, and no longer live in fear of what others might think or say.

It can also be heartbreaking. I've recently been speaking up to my mother, and it is creating a distance between us. I told her several months ago I was going to ween myself off my Zoloft. On Monday night I confronted her on an issue that had been bothering me. I was honest and respectful. The following night she called me to ask if I had stopped taking my medication. She was "concerned" and was wondering if I thought "I was okay without it." This was her passive-agressive way of telling me my honest confrontation was NOT alright, and I must be off my meds to talk to her the way I did. PA behavior hurts, and pushes people away. I will continue to emotionally distance myself from my mom if I can't be honest and real with her. PA behavior kills intimacy. It is wrecking your M. It IS fixable, with the right support.

I know you just started a new job and counseling with the Harleys, but I highly recommend looking into IC for yourself as well.

KM

Wow.

I've almost never posted to the two of you, but I've followed your story here on MB for a while.

It seems to me that the two of you have never been in recovery. Patriot appears to have not taken all the steps needed to help Frozen with her recovery. She still has some valid reasons to not feel completely 'safe' yet. Frozen still harbors a lot of anger and resentment that she's not let go of yet. While I can completely understand how not feeling safe can impact that, she's still using the affair itself as a weapon against Patriot in their arguments...even if it appears (from the side I saw posted at least) that the argument had nothing to do with the affair or recovery.

I think that the two of you need to take a step back, REALLY evaluate your recovery plan, and work with the Harley's to fix your situation. I think that BOTH of you have responsibility for what looks like a failed recovery. The advice on this board is great, but I think the two of you need to go (back?) to the professionals to REALLY get into a recovery plan again.

Something strikes a discordant note for me about this situation and your description of it...the lack of perceived urgency.

See..here is how your recent situation looks to me in terms of the relationship accounts.

You broke your agreement and essentially "stole" the job and consequently bankrupted your trust account.

Then you claimed remorse but were unwilling to actually just return the money and accept that it would leave you without the income BUT asked if there might be something ELSE you could do...aka the payment plan option.

A big part of the problem with that is the ability to delay the consequence of the account closing...to still have access to credit etc which means that you have the opportunity to dig the hole still deeper and you are very likely to do so because all of the personal issues that went in to issue one are still present when you are faced with making decisions in issue two.

So as soon as things "seem" to be running smoothly again and you are out of conflict you lose your motivation to keep pressing forward [and this is pretty much true of the rest of the world right along with you]. When the conflict goes away it is hard to stay focussed and accountable...for this reason I believe that it does a disservice to all involved to extend credit prematurely. It is far better to refuse and allow the conflict to do its JOB of making you uncomfortable so that you have the best odds chance of genuinely overcoming the wrong beliefs that allowed you to give yourself permission to steal in the first place.

That was true when you were able to marry on the heels of unfaithfull behavior just as surely as it is true today.

I think because of that you have been able to just slide by on promises of "next time" you consequently find yourself trying to deal with calculus when you haven't learned long division yet.

You SHOULD have been stopped dead in your tracks at discovery and also in every subsequent breach of contract...permitting you to move forward without growing strong enough to shoulder that level of intimacy was poor judgement and benefitted no one imo.

It leaves your perception possibly warped [the only explanation I can come up with] so that you are not attaching the relationship alterring significance to mundane tasks which have the power to restore or destroy.

It IS easy to procrastinate an email but it is NOT or should not be easy to procrastinate compensating or repaying a debt that truly weighs heavily on your mind and heart.

I can tell you that because I DO attach that significance I know that I would be doing it barefooted in pajamas rather than allow the sun to rise without me having attended to it...I don't WANT that inequity and loss of respect and I'll fight pretty hard to avoid it.

If you aren't feeling urgency about things like this obviously you will procrastinate because you are certainly feeling urgent about SOMETHING or other and those things will slide into first position every time until the opportunities to take advatage of THIS is lost.

Again I believe that your feelings are being exposed [maybe even to you] by exposing your priorities for what they really ARE and not what you want them to be or think they should be and again I do think that it could be nothing more earth shattering than a discipline issue which causes it to LOOK like you don't care or have bad intentions but even if that is the case you have to accept that how it LOOKS and is experienced by the people who live with you is the measure you will be judged by whether that is the complete truth or not.

Geez this sounds like me and my FWW.

Just to say I read on someone elses thread "don't remember where" but I am plagarizing.

There are two choices after an A staying together or getting a D.

If you decide to stay together recovery isn't always possible. Somtimes it is actually just reconciling the fact your spouse had an A.

First getting email from work. Mirosoft exchange is usually used at most bigger companies.

That can be accessed by going to webmail.hiscompaniesname.com

the password and user name are what he uses to log into the network.

About the job. He should quit the job if it is possible. IS OW around?

He is not doing what is necessary for recovery. So what he is here.

What is he putting in practice from the website?

Radical Honesty? Nope.
POJA? Nope took the job.
Transparency? Nope won't send the emails. Using PA behavior to avoid that.
O & H conversation. No


Just because I go to a message board about Christianity doesn't mean I am trying to be a Christian.

I don't understand the lack of 2x4's.

Froz is the BS that has given 3 years to recover and can't get to the start and yet we are patting Pat on the back.

Figure it out man before it is too late!!

If you don't know the why yet at least start doing things right.

She had a right to be upset. What you did is classic PA behavior.

FROZ you need to move your buttons.

NOW what I would suggest is this "DOING WHAT YOU COMMITT TO DO WITH URGENCY!!!!

IF she asks you for something either say "I won't" and leave it there or I Will and then do it.

For one minute ask your self how ticked off you would be if the roles were reversed with the whole email thing?

Now the question is do you want to recover? If so there is heavy lifting waiting for you.

What message have you sent to Froz about the importance of her feelings when you PURPOSELY procrastinate on something this important to her???

exchange is not used here. Notes is. So you are incorrect. Also, your absolutes in accessing my recovery efforts are grossly miscalculated.

But you don't know me at all. So what can I expect.

People here only know me based on what frozen tells them, because I have made it a point to not refute much she has to say.

It was a long time that she was blasting me all over this board. Go back and read. It is there. All the crossed boundaries. All the manipulation. All the unhealthy behavior.

And now that I am doing something about it, there are growing pains.

oh nevermind. You won't listen anyway, right?

You must be correct in that I deserve more angered responses and 2x4s.

Pat92:

Why?

Does it really matter? Now?

Build the Affair-proof marriage.

Keep up the counseling with the Harleys.

Is Froz right? Does that make Pat92 Wrong?

Frog put a direct hit on many of your issues:

"What is he putting in practice from the website?

Radical Honesty? Nope.
POJA? Nope took the job.
Transparency? Nope won't send the emails. Using PA behavior to avoid that.
O & H conversation. No


Just because I go to a message board about Christianity doesn't mean I am trying to be a Christian."

I can gaze at my navel for the next three years and try to come up with the "why" I had my A, now.

I KNOW some of the reasons why, and hanging around here was revaeled to me so much more.

But so what.

I changed myself. Built in the boundaries, that I needed to protect myself.

And in doing that, I made it easier for Flamingo to trust, care for and forgive me.

So, Why? is a good question.

Don't rationalize it.

Walk away from those things in you that allowed it to happen.

You will, and Froz will be, in a better place than.

Just my .02

LG

PS:

You say you know Mel. Why hasn't SHE knocked your block off yet?

Not to t/j but "find out the why" was an assignment directly from Da Man hisself so I'm inclined to believe it's relevant.