does what really matter now?

the why?

Well, yes it does matter. In exploring this, I have seen some deeper ways I walked down that path. ANd some of them are no longer a problem.

Awareness was a factor. And now I am aware. That does not mean I am done.

P/A was a factor. And procrastinating is a P/A behavior. ANd with the email I did it. Yet this time, I owned that I did it and I changed the behavior. No waiting around while I defended my actions trying to get some sort of approval. I just changed it.

that I made errors and hurt frozen is true. I won't deny it.

But to simply say "change it" isn't quite specific enough and does not at all address anything I think about any of this.

And sorry... but to be a buyer/buyer relationship, my concerns and issues have to be addressed too. It is when I take action without considering her concerns that I would be trying to manipulate her into a buyer situation when I truly am not one.

ANd that I am not doing.

There is just a ton of anger today. I am at work trying to concentrate. No one is really offering me much other than things I have already heard and an accessment or perceived unwillingness on my part. Oh, and I am being told that my relationship is over.

So forgive me if I don't really know what to say right now. This is a crisis and I have no idea what to do right at this moment.

Like I said...the BOTH of you are responsible for your lack of recovery at this point.

Get some serious professional help. You need to own your mistakes...and FIX THEM. She needs to own her mistakes...AND FIX THEM. Quit the blame shuffling and start REALLY addressing the problems.

This 2x4 is aimed at BOTH of you.

If you are really interested in suggestions for what to "do" rather than speculation and examination my FIRST choice would still be to put out resumes and find a new job using the correct model.

If it were me that would be the only good faith action I could accept.

Patriot,

There has been alot said here on this thread. Lots to obsorb, or ignore. I agree wholeheartedly that it is essential to identify the WHY.

I also think that what WS think the reason may be around d-day, is usually not the whole story.

My FWH and I both believed that the reason he has his A was simple. He wanted more SF and I wasn't interested. To be honest, it tormented him and I ignored his torment. I wouldn't even discuss it, and told him it wasn't something I could fix. So it seemed to make sense that he jumped at the first chance that came his way to cheat.

But really, it wasn't that simple, the OW saw his need for SF and willingly and enthusiastically provided it. But more importantly, she constantly flattered him which did wonders initially for his terrible self esteem.

My beleagered point here is that IMHO, mostly there are several layers of why and it takes a combination of things for one to begin an affair.

My FWH and I had loads in common with you and frozen. Heck, look at how long we have been at this. I expected my FWH to leap over mountains and give us recovery...while I remained angry with him to the core and reserved the right to LB with angry outbursts at will.

It wasn't until a couple of months ago when I discovered an email message my FWH had sent to a friend that indicated he was at least contemplating initiating email correspondance with yet another OW candidate.

Based on the situation, I knew and he learned that


We looked back and realized that dabbling in infidelity was a mechanism that FWH had always used to deal with his anger towards me.

Mind you, it might have been a simple as scouring over internet dating sites all the way up to his PA, but the coping mechanise was there, plain as day.

When we realized this, we both knew that we probably only had one chance left to recover because neither of us could continue as we had been living.

You and Frozen both have to want this, more than anything else and even tho you may have the heavy lifting to do, she has to work with you.

My efforts to stop LBing with Angry Outbursts have made a world of difference and we honestly have achieved more towards recovery since May than we had during the entire 3 1/2 years prior.

There does need to be a real sense of urgency here for both of you because you might be running out of time.

It is hard work, but the pay off is worth it.

Who

Patriot,

I think that when one spouse has an A and the other spouse asks them to be transparent the FWS has choices.

Choice one is to say no. Easy and honest. Deal with the consequences.

Choice two say yes. Sub choices follow. Do it the very next day. Or as soon as possible. Or drag the feet.

This is really just PA behavior. IMVHO PA behviour is abusive to the spouse. It is meant to keep them off balance and it is manipulative.

My point on the 2x4's is not to say she is right. I believe that the LB's and angry outbursts are counter productive in the Face of PA behaviour. It gives the PA person what they want Victim status.


I will listen to you. I will not say that right now you are doing what is correct to recover not reconcile your M.

I made a point to ask you which of the priciples that are pretty important are you implementing. You chose to ignore those.

You instead answered the lotus notes question.

In todays day and age almost every server based email give remote access.

So when will Froz get that from you?

Understand that:
Radical honesty, Transparency, POJA are you really, really working hard on?

A BS has a lot to deal with. At this time being honest on everything is important.

My 2x4 is that the why is important but the what you are going to do now is just as important.

Start today with Radical Honesty and Transparencey.

This is not sacrifice. This is acceptance, tolerance and/or conflict avoidance. You 'expected' this of frozen?

I'm confused by your use of the term 'sacrifice'. What kinds of things do you feel that you sacrificed for the benefit of a stronger relationship with frozen?

He never started.

Oh...but he did. You just don't recognize it...or it doesn't meet your standards.

It is sad to see efforts go unrecognized when there are so many lost and sad betrayed spouses on this site who would give everything they own for their waywards to be doing half as much as he has been doing.

Again, if it isn't enough or up to your standard it might be advisable for you to make the decision to separate or divorce.

To continue to throw the affair in his face is totally unacceptable....no matter what the provocation is.

That is why Plan A is so beneficial to the betrayed person...it teaches them how to behave properly when confronted with wayward activity and when dealing with the fallout after the affair has stopped.

committed

well....

Pat....

Its all well and good to wonder and figure out why you weren't a better man.

In the meantime starting BEING a better man.

You know how to do the right things. Start doing them. Today. Even if you haven't figured out the cause of your failures.

ignored? what questions? You mean the ones you answered for me like you know me?

Hence you won't listen.


which is fine.

the email server is not accessable from outside. I don't know who you have worked for, but this particular company has login requests for the bathroom.

I will drop this now. I am nitpicking your posts and you do have some things worthy of noting.

You delivery is not one of them.

Patriot,

I am listening to you. I don't understand what part I have not listened to.

The point of the whole email thing is you told Froz you would. Nothing more, nothing less. You agreed to do that then admitted to delaying action.

That is PA.

That behavior is frustrating beyond belief.

I am a blunt person. I won't say you haven't started some of the decisons you have made are not right or fair.

My main point is this last set of decesions go against what you KNOW you should be doing.

That is it.

My delivery will always be blunt that is how I post.

If you don't want me posting to you I won't. I think it bothers you because you can see no gloves on truth in what I say.

Hello Patriot:

I post here rarely, but passive-aggression and conflict avoiding was such a key part of our marital issues that your post caught my eye.

I hope you realize what a huge amount of work you have already done and just how far you and your wife have come.

You have already identified yourself as a passive-aggressive person, and you understand the concepts of Imago and of MB.

You see in yourself that you are projecting the image of your step-monster onto your wife, and that you are using the tools of passive-aggression (proscrastination, lying, gaslighting, blameshifting) to try to disarm her and control her.

Many people would not even be open to those truths. That you are is huge. It's profound. It's the first step in fabulous.

But it's only a first step. From her post, it appears your wife is actively working to stop her part of the P/A dance by stopping her angry outbursts. Are you working to learn to express your emotions openly? That is the key to ending passive-aggression. Have you done any of the Imago exercises to learn to identify and express emotions?

They work. My husband was as firmly rooted in a passive-aggressive worldview as anyone I have ever heard or read about. He saw everyone as someone who was trying to control or thwart him in some way. And he used whatever tactics he could to protect himself from those perceived attempts at control.

Those tactics, combined with my own issues, left me as angry as it is possible to be and not be in jail.

Through IC and Imago MC he was able to learn to express his feelings and handle conflict appropriately and I was able to contain my anger. What he found was that the open expression of his thoughts and feelings engendered far less animosity than his passive-aggressive tactics. That in turn made him willing to drop the P/A tactics and truly make openness and honesty a priority.

Continuing on the path of healing will be a win-win for you and your wife, Patriot. There is no way she or anyone else will ever feel safe with a passive-aggressive spouse. It's not a possibility. And there is no way that you will feel safe either as long as that is your mindset. P/A people distrust those closest to them, no matter who those people are. That is no way to live.

You've come such a long way. If you go just a bit farther you will start to reap the benefits of your work.

Tru

Patriot,

The issue here is trust. Plain and simple. The facts are:

You appear to be hiding emails.
You didn't do what you said you would do.
You are preventing frozen from viewing what she feels a need to view.
You continue to delay the viewing.


This behavior erodes basic trust, and delays further the reconciliation of the relationship.

Whether you call it PA, procrastination, or anything else, the end result remains the same.


If you are not able to allow her access to your work email remotely, then save your emails to disk or memory stick and take them home to her. Simply solved. Or, forward your emails to her. There are other ways to fix this problem, which you know exist, yet avoid.

It is in the avoidance of openness and solving the problem - ACTIVELY SOLVING THE PROBLEM TODAY - that you appear suspect, untrustworthy, and lacking in dedication to the marriage.

Do you see that?

And no matter how you color this - PA, procrastination, whatever - you still end up looking wrong.

Your solution is to actively fix it. Change YOUR behavior. You can only change your own behavior; when you do so, you will see a change in hers. This is not magical, it is real. Do it and watch the results.

To continue to do what you are currently doing - which is NOT changing - will result in the same circle dance, and the ultimate result is what you currently have: crisis.

SB

Pat, I'll tell you what I've told my husband when it comes to this stuff:

You WILL always win.

You will always win.

Just as you have this time and all the other times.

You won and Froz lost.

Again.

You WILL always win.
Mulan

I never once said that procrastination was not P/A behavior. I agree with you on it.

I never once tried to fight her on it either. I admitted it once I had my hand on it. fact.

So I understand what it is. And I stopped.

She gets the emails forwarded. Best I could do right now. It was the only option currently and though it is inconvenient for me, I know why I must do it. And so I am.

As far as winning... I do not agree. Maybe she lost... but I have not won in all of this. I find it short-sighted to think I truly win in this kind of thing. I disagree. I am not winning

So... I really don't want to debate P/A behaviors on this thread. We can do another for that if we need to.

I agree that P/A behavior is a portion of the answer to this thread though.

Not the only one. Awareness. Maturity. things like that.

Which reduces to not protecting my weaknesses. Not protecting frozen from my weaknesses.

Things like that.

Anyway... this is short because I need to go.

Oops! He posted under my name!

oops

I thought Froz' voice was suddenly much deeper.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(Oh, those automatic sign ins...when convenience thwarts us from being present...hey, might even go to the how's of protection...)

LA

TB,
thanks for your post. that was helpful and enlightening. And it reminds me of the difference THIS time over other times.

I am the one that admitted I had been procrastinating the issue. I am the one that linked that action to P/A behavior. I am the one that said I would do something about it. I am the one that did do something about it. I did not fight her. I did not try to cover up what I had done. I said 'oops, that was wrong and I will change that asap'.

it is THAT kind of action that is possible through growth on my part.

So progress is better than nothing.

What I did hurt her. Hurting her is not ok. I saw what I was doing as hurting her. I stopped.

pretty simple really.

Anyway, thanks for posting. I think our crisis is ending and I have a few things I need to do in the near future.

That said, I want to post later on this evening about "why". I want to try and tie it all up, if I can.

I'm glad you took action. Good thing.

Once we are through a crisis, we look back and sometimes say,

pretty simple really.


Other times it takes us two years to look back and say that.

And we wonder why it took us two years to ask the question in the first place. Or, maybe we asked it but avoided answering. Or maybe some other blend........but in the meantime, two years passed, and we found ourselves mired in the muck of things we could have, should have


solved


before, when we had the chance the first time around.


If we were only perfect, and not human. But that would take all the work out of it, wouldn't it?

SB

I have been reading through the Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders book by Dr. Harley.

I find this immensely enlightening in discovering things about myself leading to the reasons why I had an affair. This was a very good book to read right now.

From reading this book I have determined a few things about myself that I hadn't even thought about.

The freeloader agreement is "I will do nothing in this relationship that does not come natural and if there are problems, I am leaving."

The renter agreement is "I will sacrifice as long as you sacrifice and I will stay here until something better comes along"

The buyer agreement is "I am committed to this relationship and I will do anything to show you care, learning new skills not natural to myself, but I will not sacrifice to do it. Giver and Taker will be balanced."

I think I was a renter when Frozen and I started dating. I was willing to sacrifice. I expected her to sacrifice. Short term solutions where the order of the day. Things like that.

The she and I moved in together and I traded in my renter agreement for a freeloader agreement. I did nothing that was outside of natural for me. I still sacrificed a little, but I used the fact that she and I lived together as a form of commitment and thus, threated this situation as "she's caught, so there is no need to work any more".

I think she still expected at least renter behavior, but wanted buyer behavior, and I perceived this as a form of control. And my P/A behavior was inflamed by this. So I attacked her deliberately because this situation was 'not fair' for me. But I didn't want to look like the bad guy, of course, so I did it secretly and in really terrible ways.

I am really saddened at this discovery. That I would be this way to someone. Mind messages telling me that she was my enemy and me using my 'skill' of pinpoint attack to make her pay for it. The skill of identifying a weakness in someone and exploiting it.

Really a terrible thing to do. And I felt entitled to do it because I was being wronged by her, I thought. She was treating my just like my step-mother, I thought. Trying to guilt me for not doing what she wanted(which was her wanting me to not be a freeloader, most likely). Constantly voicing displeasure with me(again.. likely upset about being with a freeloader and my perception of her voicing displeasure was overblown I think).

I never wanted to listen to her issues because they made me feel bad. And I was pissed at her for so long not just toughening up.

what a terrible way to treat someone.

I am so sorry that I did that to her.

So actions are the way to show true remorse, as she and I have talked. I understand that. If she was doing something to me that I wanted stopped, my interest in it being stopped. Not hearing her say she is sorry for it and not changing. I would be so pissed off at her and I would certainly not be interested in being around her. I would consider, over time, her to be my enemy. And I think this is where she has been from time to time.

So actions. And my plan.

I have done a few things Frozen has asked for, and some of them are becoming very habitual.

I am really trying to pay attention to my behavior with respect to the fact that she not pay a consequence for it. In the case where either she or I will pay a consequence for the result of something, I look for the way to make the consequence mine and not hers.

I need to finish the BRF book, which I am almost there. Read it pretty fast actually.

I am looking for a new job, since the one I have right now equates to stolen goods.

More again later.

Patriot,

I've been reading this thread with great interest; thank you for the insight. I have ordered the BRF book and am eagerly awaiting it. My H and I are a bit behind you and Frozen in recovery and I'm hoping my H can come around soon. What was the catalyst that prompted you to look internally for solutions?