MEDC - "you don't know how or why?" Perhaps it's because your understanding of maritial VOWS are "different" and not biblically based?

"in sickness and in health."

"for richer or for poorer."

"until death do us part."


More like "kick the infidel out on their [censored] if I don't get what I want."

MEDC, all betrayed spouses have the right to a divorce. All betrayed spouses have the right to choose divorce or the potentially long and hard road that leads to a recovered marriage. YOU may feel that YOU would not put up with the wait or work on the healing, but to advocate that personal position to someone else seems far beneath the premise and position of Marriage BUILDERS.

Care rethink your position?

Seems you forgot

Forsaking all others

Once the vow is broken, it is null and void if the BS chooses. Each situation is different in the way it is broken and the impact it has on the BS. Therefore, MEDC or any other BS can CHOOSE if they want to pursue the M.

In the end, the poster has the right to reject or accept MEDC's advice but it is a valid position and certainly you can not imply his position is not biblically based.

Fh's just likes to run his mouth where I am concerned. I have had him on ignore for quite some time and have been all the better for it. The only reason I ever have to look at one of his posts...which now only draw a chuckle from me...is when someone quotes him.

grindnfool - "Seems you forgot Forsaking all others


That would be a little hard for me to "forget" considering my wife's 6 year long affair and the 4 years it took it to reach Recovered. It would be a little hard to forget since I am an advocate for, and believer in, NO CONTACT with the affair partner, for the lifetime of the infidel.

But you seem to "forget" that God never forgets anything either. But He CHOOSES to forgive and to put the sin so far away that it is "as if" it never happened for believers.

Would you care to discuss the "biblically based" position regarding forgiveness of sin?

Without getting "too detailed," the biblical position is quite clear, a BS who cannot find the ability to live with a spouse that has committed adultery CAN, not must, divorce.

God hates ALL divorce, but allows it for marital unfaithfulness because God knows how "limited" we humans are when we try to "recover on our own" without His help and how difficult it is even for believers. This betrayal of adultery is something that God FULLY understands.

IF someone is not an adopted child of God, NONE of God's promises apply to them anyway and "forgiving as God has forgiven me" has no meaning anyway. But MEDC professes to be a believer, so his position is evaluated in the light of what the Scripture DOES say to believers, regardless of their personal "feelings."

The "biblical position" is to "Forgive as God has forgiven me my sins."

I CAN and DO take the "position" that MEDC's position is NOT biblically based. It is based on his feelings and his physical needs. In short, it is based on a "what's in it for me" position of "Taker" versus "Giver" if you want to put it into "MB" terms.

NO ONE has ever said that recovery from adultery is "easy." It is anything but "easy." But it is based in LOVE for the spouse regardless of circumstances. It is based in endurance of the very real emotional difficulities that a Betrayed Spouse feels and the very real emotional feelings of guilt and "poor self-worth" image that a Wayward Spouse has to work through as part of the process of recovery.

In a word, recovery and working through the recovery process to eventually arrive at a Recovered and better marriage is based in LOVE and putting the spouse's needs ahead of one's own needs, real or perceived. Another way of looking at it is "it is better to give than to receive." We don't "give" simply because we "expect" to receive something in return. We give because of LOVE, in the hope that there will be full healing from the devastation of adultery and that WHEN we reach Recovered we WILL also have our needs met because the spouse will also be a "Giver" and not just a "Taker."

So, what I hear you saying is that anyone who is a believer must forgive and with God's help recover the marraige.

If I decide, free will you know, that I do not want to recover the marraige, then I am not a believer????????

Of course, if the WS turns away from the sin, I will forgive as I have been forgiven.

In the end, because of that pesky free will, MEDC's position is biblically supported as he makes no mention of not granting forgiveness.

To say anything other than that, I believe, is irresponsible.

I CAN and DO take the "position" that MEDC's position is NOT biblically based. It is based on his feelings and his physical needs. In short, it is based on a "what's in it for me" position of "Taker" versus "Giver" if you want to put it into "MB" terms.

_______________

it's pride.

i won't get into what is biblically based and what is not but i often read MEDCs posts(and i often understand and agree w/ hi is POV) and feel that his stance has more to do w/ self-respect, self -protection and his own boundries than it does w/ a taker 'what's in it for me" mentality.

_________________


i have had very frank conversations w/ several WW's.

1 of them...sex w/ H became more frequent as she was always the higher drive spouse anyway....she also seemed to really get off on the excitement of the secrecy and enjoyed pushing boundries.
she is a very accomplished liar.

2 others.....the sex dried up completely. they gave everything to OM.

1......sex continued....at first it was exciting to juggle two relationships at once........then she got tired of it and went back to her H......who, ironically,had an affair that they never recovered from and divorced.
she never told him about her affair.

Amen FH! Well said.

It breaks my heart to see anyone go through the pain of an affair.

What is even worse are the BH's here that can't seem to move past the pain and are stuck with lashing out at any and all WH's and WWs.

Rebuilding is a choice... to say that you want to rebuild, then continue to hold the past sins of the wayward over their heads is NOT what MB is about... and in God's eyes, it is NOT forgiveness.

Semper Fi,

RIF

I think FH stated the Biblical view pretty on target...

As the result of infidelity, the BS MAY divorce the WS. It is because WE have finite limitations on forgiveness that God is not constrained by. His forgiveness is always complete and always given with joy and enthusiasm though he does not always shield us from the consequences of our sins and rebellion.

While God hates divorce (HIS words), and His will is for us to emulate Him, He also knows that we are not Him or even like Him and so He allows the BS the option of divorce knowing that for some the broken relationship will never mend and He will not compel us to live a life of misery simply to make a point.

Even after divorce and the passage of many years it may still be possible for a couple to be reunited. I had the pleasure of standing up for the wedding for friends who had been divorced for 18 years. God can heal relationships despite our limitations.

But because this is Marriage Builders and because the stated goal of this site is to save and rebuild marriages, I believe that it should be our goal on these forums as well. And yet not all marriages will be saved from adultery and some perhaps should not be saved after adultery but those that can be saved should be supported in an effort to bring that about. Even those that do not recover should receive the support toward that end if for no other reason than to allow those that can be saved the option of recovery until such an option is bankrupt.

And from my limited POV, if God can forgive me for what I have done in MY lifetime, who am I to choose not to forgive someone else? Jesus taught us to actually pray for this idea when He told us to pray and ask the Father to forgive us as (in like manner) we forgive others.

JMO...

Mark

forgiveness and a willingness to remain in a bad situation are two different things. That position is consistant with Scripture.
I can forgive someone for hitting my child, but I do not have to ever take a chance that it could happen again. I can forgive and have forgiven marital unfaithfulness, but do not need to remain in a bad situation hoping that things will get better.

grindnfool - then you "hear" incorrectly. So let me be VERY clear about this so you can hear correctly.

God's commands TO believers apply TO believers. Unbelievers are not going to obey God anyway no matter what He has commanded as Sovereign Lord.

What God has commanded is that if a brother/sister in Christ sins against you and comes to you saying "I repent," a believer MUST forgive the sin. As Jesus told Peter, "seventy times seven times" if need be.

But we are NOT commanded to live with someone or be friends with someone. We forgive the SIN.

IF, and only IF, a Betrayed Spouse CHOOSES to attempt recovery from adultery, the implication is that the spouse is forgiven. WITHOUT repentance, first to God, and then to the Betrayed Spouse, there can be no forgiveness. So the CHOICE is given to the Faithful Spouse by God to either divorce or to attempt recovery, forgiving the Unfaithful Spouse and attempting to honor the PROMISE that is made when you forgive someone "as God has forgiven me."

It is forgiveness that is commanded, not remaining married.

The CHOICE is granted to the Faithful Spouse by God.

With God's help, with both husband and wife seeking to follow God in humble obedience, they WILL recover their marriage. That, too, is God's promise when we walk WITH Him and not on our own. God is a party to our covenant and God NEVER commands us to do something without also making all of the resources we will need to do what has been commanded available to us. "I can do all things THROUGH him (Jesus) who gives me strength."

It is one example of WHY God tells believers to not be unequally yoked. So the "assumption" is that both the husband and wife are believers, because God's promises do not apply to unbelievers.

I hope that clears up any misunderstanding you might have had.

grindnfool - suggestion.....go back and reread MEDC's post. What you wrote here is NOT what he wrote that I objected to. Now he is "backpeddling" and correctly stating the Biblical position, but from his previous post it is clear that the Biblical position is NOT his own personal position. He "can't understand why anyone...."

THAT is the problem both with respect to the Bible and with respect to the Marriage Builders site dedicated to recovering marriages that have suffered from infidelity. MEDC "can't understand." I think that's rubbish. He CAN and DOES "understand," he simply chooses to put his "feelings" (call it pride if you like) as the CAUSE of his choices.

What you stated in the quotation above IS correct. No one "MUST" attempt reconciliation and recovery UNLESS they CHOOSE to do so with "God-like" forgiveness based in their love for God and their spouse.

But it IS also interesting to read what makes MEDC laugh. It's also rather revealing about where he places "obedience to God" on the "totem" of his life.

The POINT, it would seem, of this thread is to provide encouragement to the author of the thread and to provide him help in recovering his marriage, NOT to tell him that he should "get rid of her" because that's what MEDC would do.

I agree with this totally except to say that only GOD can forgive sin. We can and must forgive the sinner and allow God to deal with them.

BK -


Not looking to start a theological debate, but was curious as to the difference, and how that plays into marital reconciliation after an A?

Does God command that we forgive an unrepentant sinner?

What if we don't know if they've repented or not?

I can agree with this as this would be the way I would write it if I could do so as eloquently as you have here.

Healingbird & rltraveled - there really isn't much of a difference betweeen what I said and the above response from BK. What is the "difference" is in the area of Salvation. ONLY God can forgive sins that separate us from God. ONLY God can reconcile us to Him and make us a "new creation" through, and on behalf of, Jesus Christ.

"Forgiveness" as a word has several different meanings and applications, just like the word "Love" does.

Jesus' teach would seem to be very clear on this subject as He is speaking to a believer.

In response to Peter's magnanimous proposal of forgiving someone who has sinned against him and repented up to 7 times (the "Jewish standard" of the day was 3 times), Jesus told Peter, "Not seven times, but seventy times seven times." In other words, there is no limit. We are commanded to forgive as God has forgiven us the offense against us (and obviously the sinner who committed the offense).

This forgiveness also applies to "seeking revenge" against the sinner, and it is in this area that I believe that "forgiveness" can be applied to an unbeliever, or even to someone who has not repented of their sin against us.

For example, I have not forgiven my wife's OM, nor do I intend to, with respect to the sin itself. It would seem a bit presumptuous to forgive something that God Himself has not first forgiven, don't you think?

However, I have "forgiven" the penalty for that sin, i.e., retribution and revenge in the sense that I have given that responsibity into God's hands. As the Scripture also clearly teachs, "It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the Living God." That is a warning that forgiveness of sin is ONLY to be found in God, who can "wipe that sin out" and perform the miracle of creating a "new heart" (a "new creation) in the sinner. Along with God's salvation forgiveness comes his forgiveness of the "just penalty" that sin requires, because Christ PAID the full penalty for that sin on a believers behalf.

When God says to believers, "Vengeance is mine," He is protecting us. This goes hand in hand with the truth about our emotions, "Be angry (righteous anger over sin), but in your anger do not also sin." God provides us with "tool" to not commit sin ourselves by telling us to give that responsive need for justice, for revenge, for a penalty, TO God and let Him as the one true and just Judge "handle it."

If my wife's OM is one of God's elect, he WILL come to accept Christ at some point in his life. If that should occur, and if he should come to me asking for my forgiveness, then, and only then, would I forgive him, not because I "wanted to" or because it made me "feel good" or because "forgiveness is the 'gift' you give yourself," but because God has COMMANDED that response. Illustrating that command is what the parable of the Unmerciful Servant is all about. Compared to the debt of sin owed to God, a sin debt owed to me is insignificant. It may SEEM huge to me, but weighed on the scale of Salvation Forgiveness for ALL sin, it is legitimtely "owed" to me but since I have been forgiven a much greated "debt load" by God, who is now my Master, I am commanded by my Master to forgive the "smaller debt" just as He has forgiven me.

I have "forgiven" my right to vengeance and given that over to God for HIM to decide the "just penalty." I already KNOW what that penalty is because the Scripture is quite clear about the "Sentance" that awaits an UNrepentant adulterer. It is equally clear that a Repentant sinner IS forgiven and will be in Heaven...."...and such WERE some of you."

So the "difference between what BK said and what I previously said relates to salvation and our responsibility to forgive someone who has sinned against us who God has already forgiven. "Sin" is a theological concept, after all, that means that there IS an "ultimate authority" who establishes what Sin is, regardless of our belief in, or rejection of, the ONE who is the Ultimate Authority who has the RIGHT to establish right and wrong, and to determine the penalites or the way to pardon and forgive.

God bless.

Here is where I differ with your opinion. Everyone has different boundries and what may make you CHOOSE to end the M, may be different for me.

The point of M builders is to build marraiges, but not at all costs. There is, and rightfully should be, a difference made between situations.

Evidently, one of MEDC's boundries would be if his M was translated to another (in the form of SF and other EN's) this would be a dealbreaker for him. I can not say that it would be the same for me. (If my W were to still give me SF while giving SF to OM does not make it any better for me)

Anywho, key point is the purpose of this site is to give MB advice based on situations and using our own boundries as the reference. Not to give feel good advice that may be detrimental to the BS.

I would agree that the purpose of the site is to impart MB advice. Note I said SITE.
FH would have an argument with the good doctor here too since Dr. H has clearly said in his video that if someone comes to him and says they want to divorce after an affair he is right there with them.
If someone is asking for an opinion about how long they should hang on or about their own situation, I will give them MY opinion. Others will give theirs. I think it is great that someone like FH was willing to wait year after year for his wife to stop abusing him. I think he said it was a 6 year affair and I know that the recovery had many flase starts. My own boundary is that would not happen to me. I would choose to bail out sooner as I do not believe that anyone is worth that sacrifice of time. FH and others have felt differently.
I will always recommend a person with children...first affair that has not gone on for years..no other abuse...to give things a try. I know I would have. I will NEVER recommend that a person give a serial cheater or someone that has not done their part to help the M after a certain period of time...to continue in the M. Sorry, "till death do us part" does not mean that one has to sacrifice their happiness and self respect for years while their spouse robs their marriage of intimacy. Too many people on this site have sacrificed their years to a cheater that will never come around. I think Plan A and Plan B are great tools. I also think they need a stopping point. For me that would be a repeat offense or a failure to return to the marriage as a partner willing to put in the work to make things right.
I am not sure who mentioned it earlier...I am thinking Nia, but it really comes down to self respect and boundaries to me. Thats why I think people that are willing to sleep with a WS are off base...why I think taking back a serial cheater is wrong...why I believe that a person is defined by their actions, not their words. I don't understand why anyone would act that way as I said earlier in the thread. If my wife were to have an affair and then not return to the M with intimacy and a changed heart within what I would determine to be a reasonable time, then I would choose to move on.
My thoughts and my opinions.
As far as FH's comments...well, I will only say this...

First question, I would say the answer is "no."

Second, I would say just use the yardstick if they have turned from their sin and asked for forgiveness.