On another thread you said this:



I feel compelled to say something about this because I so strongly disagree and because it contradicts MB principles.

MB principles are about cause and effect. According to what Steve Harley has told me, it IS Patriot's job to make me feel safe (and I use the term "make" loosely and I don't want to get hung up on a verb that implies force).

From what I have learned from MB and from Steve Harley, if a WS demonstrates safe and trustworthy behaviors, the BS WILL respond in kind.

The key is that the BS gets to determine which behaviors they perceive as safe and trustworthy. The same goes for anyone else.

For example, if I do something that causes you to feel angry, you tell me that it makes you angry and I say, "I can't control you or your feelings. I can't MAKE you not be angry"...it would completely shift the responsibility of my actions and invalidates your perception of them.

I am completely capable of trusting and I am capable of feeling safe and I believe that your statement supports a common WS line of thinking that they are not responsible for the consequences of their decision to have an affair.

This is not to say that I don't take responsibility for my own emotions. I do. If I don't feel trusting or safe, I own that. I have informed Patriot of the conditions that I WOULD feel safe and that would rebuild my trust and the choice of whether or not to create those circumstances IS his responsibility.

Kiwi,



That's some judgment you have made about me there. Have I read that incorrectly? Are you actually stating that you believe that no matter what Patriot does I won't forgive?

As it stands, I have forgiven him (many times over), but forgiving him and reconciling my heart and extending my trust to him are not the same thing. In fact, I believe it to be pretty foolish to reconcile with someone who has not changed course.

This again sounds like more blame-shifting to me. The problem is not that I am simply unforgiving. The problem is that Patriot has not done the steps that MB outlines are necessary for healing the wound after an affair, which he has recently begun doing.

It is patriot's job to exhibit behaviors, actions and decisions in which you can allow yourself to feel safe. It is patriots job to be completely open and honest with you so that you can allow yourself to trust him again.


Not necessarily. The BS will respond when and how they choose to. The actions of the WS to create a 'safe' environment do not dictate the response of the BS. The BS can choose NOT to respond in kind despite the WS having met BS's conditions for them to feel safe and to rebuild trust.

If you'll notice I said that you 'may' never feel safe or trusting of patriot again. Even if he meets all of your conditions you still get to choose. You decide when to allow yourself to trust and feel safe. You don't have to, ever.

We can take all of the sharks out of all of the oceans and there will still be those that feel it's not safe to swim.


And this is basically all I was trying to say. They are your feelings, you own them and he can't make you change them. He can only attempt to create an environment in which you might choose to feel safe in.


I was under the assumption that patriot had been making attempts to restore your trust in him. There are apparently still some sharks in the water. What might some of those sharks be?

Is he still cheating?
Is he still in contact?
Is he still secretive?
Is he still closed and dishonest?
Is he still flirting?
Had he not learned to recognize and remove himself from situations that might tempt him?

I am not judging or taking sides. I am trying to better understand your POV. What currently makes you feel untrusting and unsafe.

Of course. And I already have decided. When I see those conditions being consistently met, I will respond in kind.



I will say that he seems to be working hard to overcome untrustworthy behaviors now, with significant progress visible to over the last 3 or so weeks.

One thing that has made it difficult for me to trust him has been a consistent pattern of dishonesty since D-Day - stuff such as lying about details. Every time we have had these conversations I have found out something that was not revealed to me in prior discussions. This leaves me fearful that there might be more of it that sneaks up on me. I can't begin to tell you how painful it has been for me for that to be dragged out. I would have much preferred it be done in one fell swoop.

Another thing that has made it difficult for me to re-establish trust has been that until maybe 4 or so months ago, there would be times that I would ask for something that would help me build trust - things like transparency regarding his computer, calling me if he left work to run an errand during the day, etc...

I installed a keylogger on his computer and he discovered it and was angry about it. Instead of discussing it with me, he changed the password for the keylogger so that the next time I logged on to view it, I was locked out of it.

In one instance, he left work during the day to run an errand and didn't call me when he left. He did call me from the parking lot of the place he went to. I believed that he was en route and I asked him if he had arrived yet and he said no. He'd been sitting in the parking lot the entire time.

Throughout Recovery he has stated that he wants this marriage and that he was willing to do whatever it took to restore trust and to Recover. Recently he told me that basically from the beginning he has simply told me that he was working on stopping LB's and that he would say whatever he thought would "get me off his back", so I also feel very skeptical of any Recovery work he says he is doing until I actually see it bear fruit.

Travel is something that I feel very uneasy unsafe about. I told him that if he had to travel for work, I would feel safer about it if I were included. Many times he would purposefully roadblock to keep me from going or just not make it a priority - telling me that it would be too expensive for me to go.

I told him that I felt afraid when I would call his cell phone and couldn't reach him. There were occasions where he would be out of town for business and would be out to dinner with co-workers and not answer his cell phone because he "didn't want to hear it". When I was upset about it he would cry victim because it was an "honest mistake".

The job things are often pretty scary for me, as his A was with a former co-worker. Recently, he came off his active duty mobilization (he's in the Army), which meant that he would be going back to his civilian line of work...the same line of work he was in when he had the A.

The POJA of this job change started off okay. He did choose to end his mobilization. I understood that this was inevitable and that he would have to do it eventually. He stated that he was ready to make the change then and asked me how I felt about it. I told him that I wasn't opposed to it, but that I did have some fears. My fears were: just the change itself (which I could manage), fears about new people he would meet, fear that he wouldn't be open with me, fear that he would exclude me, fear that he would hide things from me and just general anxiety about his going back into the same line of work because it was a reminder to me.

Again, I was not opposed to the job change but I did want reassurance that I would be protected from my fears. We had the agreement that we would discuss any final decisions and he was putting out his resume and going to interviews.

One morning he went to an interview. He called me after the interview and informed me that the company had offered him a position and he accepted it.

I asked him why he had done that. He told me that he had to make an on-the-spot decision so he didn't have time to discuss it with me.

But there was a post from him to me on a private forum that we have just for the two of us that he had written about 2 hours prior to his leaving the house for the interview. In the post he said something along the lines of, "if they offer me this job today, I would like to take it", so I felt very sure that he could have discussed that with me that morning, since I was there at home with him when he posted that message.

He was very angry with me for the better part of the day. That evening we discussed it again and he continued to insist that it was an innocent mistake and that it was beyond his control.

I told him that I would not discuss the matter any further unless he decided to be honest with me.

So he told me the truth. He said that because I told him that I felt afraid, he was worried that I wouldn't agree to his taking the job so he cut me out of the negotiation.

We didn't exactly know how to resolve this NEW conflict, which we referred to as "the ill-gotten goods".

I discussed the issue with a close friend of ours from MB. I mentioned to him what she said, which was that the way SHE makes sure she doesn't profit at someone else's expense is to not allow herself to accept whatever it was she gained...give up the ill-gotten goods in order to impose consequences on herself and to show that she truly was remorseful and would change her behavior.

I didn't suggest that he do this, but when I told him what she had said he immediately he changed his story again and insisted that it was an innocent mistake and he had no choice but to do it because he HAD to have a job, didn't he? He said again that he hadn't done it on purpose.

He has since re-abandoned that story and told the truth again, but he is still at the job.

Anyway, I could go on and on...giving you examples of why I don't trust him yet, but I'll stop there.

It seems a little strange to me that I am justifying or even being asked for proof of why I don't trust him or that some have made the assertion that it must be MY fault that I don't trust him.

It's pretty typical of wayward mindset to blame the BS for the lack of trust.

I am not saying that Patriot is doing that. He isn't. Since that incident we have had 2 sessions with SH and Patriot is making plans for us to attend MB Weekend. He seems to be working on Recovery and building trust and I have seen some results.

However, we're talking about a pretty long history of untrustworthy behavior so it will take some time to get there and while I do not trust him now, I am very confident that I am perfectly capable of doing my part in this and I'm pretty sure that the reason I don't trust him is not because of some unwillingness to trust or forgive on my part.

Froz,

Forgive my intrusion on this thread but as a BS, you do realize that your trust factor will take time to restore. Any, any lies will set you back several steps.

From what you posted, I can relate. Instead of being angry, I learned to give him back his guilt. When mine lied (premeditated or not), it was his responsibility to restore my trust and it was my responsibility to balance my need to be fair with my need to protect my needs.

It isn't easy. As a BS, sometimes we want to see the WS die as a WS. We want our spouse back 100%. It can happen but only over time. For which we must be patient.

Btw, there is no guarantee the BS has to forgive the Xws. There are a lot of factors which can change it. Don't force yourself into a position you may not be ready for.

Refocus and both of you need to find closure for yourselves and each other.

JMHO,
L.

Frozen, please accept my sincere apologies for my judgement.

I thought I knew most of your story, I thought because you and Patriot seemed to have worked through nearly all your personal concerns that you and he were now "tying up the loose ends" of recovery, not still dealing with this on a day to day basis. I had no idea what you have been dealing with. I've always liked you and Patriot very much. It's so tough when you see good people still hurting.

I can only say sorry again for my remark.

I appreciate your apology. Thank you.

Orchid,

Thank you for you words of advice.



I know this well.





I understand patience is a requirement. I know that negative thinking patterns and the behaviors that result from them take time to change.

Something that has made it difficult for me is the passive-aggressiveness. It would have saved me so much time if Patriot did not employ PA because if he were unwilling to do something, I would know it and could make my decisions accordingly.

It's somewhat frustrating for me because the only way for me to know if he is willing is to wait and see if it is actually accomplished.

I see that at the root of it is control and it looks to me as though it is designed to keep me from leaving but at the same time keep the marriage on his terms.

This will eventually backfire.

I do have requirements for remaining in this marriage. I have no desire to spend the rest of my life complaining about what he is or isn't doing. He can choose to meet those requirements or he can choose not to (don't mean for that to sound quite as harsh as it looks to me now that I've typed it), but I am not willing to remain in Limbo Land. As it stands, we've been in Recovery for the for more than half of the time we've even KNOWN each other.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I will offer patience for true progress but I will not be patient with PA tactics that procrastinate and prolong Recovery any longer.

For a very long time I did not trust my own judgment in deciphering those behaviors. I do now. I know what PA looks like. I know what procrastination and roadblocking look like and I will not tolerate it. I'm tired of living in a constant state of Recovery and I'm VERY ready to move forward. I want to heal. I want to feel safe. If he chooses not to work as a team to ensure safety for both of us, I will obtain a safe and fulfilling life on my own.

Frozen,

My FWH has 'habits' of stretching the truth, omitting details, exaggerating to make himself look good and other dishonest tendencies that still occasionally keep surfacing.

Just today he finally admitted something that I already could see proof of (splotched front yard b/c the spreader didn't work and he sprinkled the powder by hand....fertilizing some parts but burning other parts). In the past he outright lied and said "I didn't do anything, it just happened." This time he admitted it, but only after he tried to 'see if it would turn out OK' and when it didn't, he had to say something.

Same habit as when he omitted telling me he had reconnected with OW 'just to see if she was OK'...he just hoped it would turn out OK (I wouldn't find out) and he wouldn't have to say anything.

The good part is that I did NOT LB, I stated my fear and he understood how this habit sets me back. I asked him to tell me next time if he does something that MIGHT go wrong when he does it, so I don't have to wonder what else he might be 'forgetting ' to tell me.

He said OK, with a good attitude and he apologized profusely. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Also, he wants me to 'spy' on him, check his work computer, our home computer history and everything I can check because he has nothing to hide and he says he will do anything to help me heal.....and he wants to prove it day in and day out.

My trust is rebuilding because of his transparency. Our MC says H will be helping me recover for the rest of our lives. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> MC is tough, but very effective.

I am learning to do my part to make it 'safe' for him to admit things to me that I used to blow up about. I am working on that, biting my tongue and squashing LB's every time it happens.

I can relate to your entire post, Froz. I'm so sorry it's been tough but hang in there.

Ace

PS Jen, did ya see I actually started a fun thread?

Froz ~

I have to say...you sound so much stronger and in such a better place now than you did several years ago.

*YOU* are recovering....and I am so happy to see it.

Hey BR!

Thank you. It means a lot to me to hear that, particularly from you.

Two words...personal responsibility.
You have been very instrumental in helping me grasp that concept.

Thank you again.

Ironic how much power we gain...when we stop trying to control others and begin setting healthy boundaries and taking personal responsiblity....

I am 100% confident that Pat's sudden interest in getting to WHY has everything to do with your own personal growth.

You stopped giving him excuses - now he has to grow up too.

Ace,

I'm guessing that H&O is one of your top needs.

Something in what you said caught my attention. I might be a little unclear about it, though


Did his admitting this make a deposit?



The part I am having trouble understanding is how he can accomplish letting you know if something *might* go wrong.
I suppose the reason it caught my attention is because I wondered if your H might be unclear how he can meet your need for O&O in the manner you like.

Yeah, Froz, O & H is #1, (Admiration and SF are close behind)

Thanks for noting that. In this particular incident, if he had said "I may have screwed up...the spreader broke today and I tried to spread the fertilizer by hand. It should be OK but if not, I'll fix it."

Cool.

I wouldn't have had to watch it burn, turn brown in splotches, wonder about it (and wonder if he was trying to hide it like before...and then wonder what else he might be hiding like I used to do). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But at least he told me he had done it before I said anything.....and he did not deny it like he would have before...for all those years.

He's making great strides. I'm triggering about other stuff and he's going overboard to reassure me.

Gotta go to work. Thanks for noticing and asking. Does that make sense or am I missing something else?

Ace

PS Also, thanks for helping Limbo.

Hmmm...I get what you're asking for. Have you discussed this with your H and does he feel confident that he will be able to accomplish meeting your need for H&O in this manner?

The reason I ask is that I don't think that I would be ABLE to do it - simply because of the way I process things. I'm not saying that what you want is unreasonable at all. It would be impossible for ME to do because I would not be able to identify that I might have screwed up. To me, it would have seemed like I was just being creative and I wouldn't have known that I was taking a risk at all.

I almost always approach problem-solving in ways that others might view as unconventional. Sometimes it bites me in the butt and sometimes the result is BRILLIANT. But the point is that TO ME it doesn't feel unconventional at all, so it would be very difficult for me to let you know.

I wonder if your H shares this quality and if so, perhaps there is an alternative method that would allow for getting honesty the way you need it and at the same time be something that he felt like he could accomplish.

Or possibly I'm just honing in on an irrelevant detail.

I'd be very curious to know why he is having difficulty doing this for you and if he related to what I mentioned about unconventional problem-solving.

My very favorite-est quote:

"What is creativity but impulsivity gone right."

Then you've misinterpretted my statement. I feel I've explained my POV so I won't press the issue.


I didn't ask you to justify or prove anything. I certainly didn't assert that the trust issue is your fault. I simply asked for some 'details' on the current situation. I would have thought there would have been more progress made to this point, but your explaination was helpful in understanding why there hasn't been. Thank you.

I am curious about the key logger issue. Did he object to this when you discussed transparency or was it not discussed at all? Was there an incident that compelled you to install the keylogger at this stage of recovery or was it just a security blanket?

I kinda see some of patriots actions of 'lying by omission' as rebellious rather than covert. Does that make sense? Sort of a struggle to hang onto some thread of independence where he doesn't have to answer to you for every little detail. I realize that is a huge obstacle in your recovery. I hope you can both work through it. He sacrificed that luxury when he chose to have an affair.

It was not discussed.



Yes. Lack of Recovery and a consistent pattern of lying and hiding things.

The keylogger incident is not recent. I was merely using it as an illustration for the general types of behaviors that have been obstacles for building trust, although since that incident he has had an anti-virus thingy that removes the kekylogger any time I try to install it.


Yeah. I noticed it, too.

He is free to rebel if he wants, though if what he wants is trust and intimacy it will be/has been very self-defeating.

Obviously rebellion in a relationship would indicate the presence of feeling controlled. Regardless of whether the control is perceived or actual, an alternative to rebellion that would be less self-defeating is healthy boundary enforcement.

BUT...a requirement to accomplishing that is personal responsibility.

I have noticed that passive-aggressive behavior seems devoid of personal responsibility -

I allowed something to happen that I didn't WANT to happen and now I'm blaming you.
I gave up my choices and my power and it's YOUR fault.
I'm angry with you because I am suffering the consequences of my own behavior.

The way to keep passive-aggressive behaviors in check is to avoid blame and passivity. In simplistic terms, passive-aggression is merely the result of quiet victimhood.

I have a nickname for Patriot's passive-aggressive alter ego. I call it SECRET MEANIE.

Hey Froz,

I saw your reply from work and could not post but I sent you an email. Did you get it?


To avoid a TJ, I'm moving your questions and my reply to my [b]Trials & Smiles Thread[/b] on the recovery forum, K?

Thanks,
Ace

I will check the e-mail now.


Ace, this is a pattern. Intentional Failure. Starting a thread or reading a book because I'm upset about the lack of progress. As soon as I start pulling my weight, he stops.

True that I LB'd. I worked very hard on myself at changing any behaviors I had that were hurtful. Lately I find myself in a place where I just don't care enough...which probably means that the only way I can stop it as this point is just to leave because I am not willing anymore to offer protection to someone who isn't offering it to me.

It infuriates me that people buy his claims of "I'm working on it. I made an innocent mistake and I'll correct it."

This was not an innocent mistake. He CHOSE not to protect me. He did not forget. I don't get how he manages to escape accountability on this time after time.

Over and over again this has happened...He's afraid I'm going to leave. He posts and does just enough to make it look like he's trying. The he stops. He uses excuses like, "I forgot" or "I procrastinated". He will quietly disappear from the thread and leave me to take the heat, without bothering to be factual.

How can you spot a PA who is truly willing? Someone who is truly willing is not TRYING. The have no reason to offer excuses because they are DOING.

I don't know how to prove that this is what is happening. But it is. Surely I am not the only one who sees this.