Hi. I hope what I did was wise.

The normal modus operandi in the estranged but not quite officially divorced state of things that is my life, is that when my stbxw would want extra time or an alteration of plans with the children, she would make her request, I would weigh it under the philosophy of "if it would not be harmful to the children, I will encourage as much time with their mom as I can because the children should not suffer any more than necessary simply because their mom and I are divorcing."

FWIW, the children do live primarily with me.

The thing that I did last nigh was a change to that philosophy. Those of you familiar with my other posts know that my divorce is and has stretched on for almost 1.5 years IN the judicial system. This is despite the fact that we have a separation agreement (not a voluntary separation agreement, btw) that is comprehensive in scope. The only thing that can be litigated is custody, and that's only because no custody agreement between parents is binding on the courts, as a judge is required to make a "best interests" determination on his or her own.

One of my children is having a birthday soon, and our agreement calls for an allowance of time with both parents on a child's birthday. I have interpreted it to mean "time with all children" and not just with the one birthday-kid. In any event, my child's birthday is in the first week of the new school year, which is when the kids begin living (almost exclusively) with me again (rather than the summer split schedule). Her birthday also falls on a day when my stbxw would otherwise have after-school time and overnight with the kids.

Nevertheless, yesterday my stbxw asked for an additional night with the children in the weekend before school starts (since the schedule works out that they will be with me the last week before school, anyway. I declined because I already had a camping trip planned, but I was open to finding some other arrangement.

However, as I cogitated on the matter, it dawned on me that I always consider and usually grant her requests or at least some accommodation when she makes a request. By contrast, whenever I have had a request for any sort of modification, she has denied it. She's also been petty and mean to me, personally, throughout the divorce, and she's the one stretching out the divorce to cause me financial and emotional hardship (she's specifically vowed to make it impossible for me to be employed in this state, and, by in large, she's carried through with that promise).

So, like I said, after thinking about it, I told her no. I told her that unless she decides to ACTUALLY negotiate an end to the disputes between us, which is what I believe to be in the children's best interests, I would not grant any more favors for her.

What I don't want is to be petty - for a couple reasons... First, since the divorce, and therefore the custody issue, has not been decided yet, I don't want to seem petty to a judge if this email is brought-up in court. Second, I'm sure my children see a lot, and I KNOW their mother disparages me to them constantly. I would like to display the appropriate way to confront this situation with wisdom and integrity.

Anyway, I've heard it said that there is wisdom in many advisers, so I welcome your comments and insights as to whether this is the appropriate tact to have taken.


Thanks,
WBF

i am short on time here but all i will say is: i don't think you have to give in to her requests every single time. you give them an inch and they will take a mile.

gekko knows that scenerio all too well.
i have experienced it a bit myself.

it is ok to say no sometimes.
she won't like it, but too bad.

mlhb

I believe your interpretation is incorrect. Although visitation with "all" children for birthdays would wind up being the case in most instances, that wording specifically refers to the birthday child. For example, if a child's birthday falls within time the kids are supposed to be with you...your Ex could request special one-on-one time with the birthday child if she wished.


If I were you, I'd deny visitation only if the children already have specific plans with you. The camping trip is a good reason to deny.

When she requests additional time, that is up to your discretion being the primary caregiver. But I would definitely keep it child schedule oriented, NOT whether your divorce case is still plodding along in the court system. Put it this way, if you stood up in court and said "yes your honor, I denied her visitation because she won't settle divorce and custody issues, and I deem the delays to be not in the best interests of the children, and she's been petty and mean and won't change anything for MY requests," the judge won't like your rationalizations.

Be sure to record all communications, changes in scheduling, etc. on a calendar. She may take issue with any denials of visitation and bring it up in court. You will be able to refer back to your schedule and explain the denials if asked.

"our agreement calls for an allowance of time with both parents on a child's birthday. I have interpreted it to mean "time with all children" and not just with the one birthday-kid."


My SA paper states the same thing and it refers to the birthday child. In the past when my XWH have the children on their birthday, we do split the day in half. But that gets crazy when the kids are in school. The children get home at 3 PM and I pick them up for dinner and take them back to my XWH, that really doesn't give either one of us much time with the birthday child. I feel bad having my children go back and forth like a yo-yo.

This year my twins have their birthday on XWH's day, I opted to have them come home to my house after school the day before their birthday, they get to pick their fav. place to eat and then we do gifts and they stay over night; on the morning of their birthday, I take them to school with their special birthday snacks for their class. They go to XWH's house that day after school and have their dinner with him and whatever he has plan for them.

My XWH have made the whole separation and divorce experience very difficult for me, I can chose to be difficult or I can take the high road and make the best of it. I chose to take the high road and it has paid off. It didn't happen over night, it took time.

I was told by someone at the courthouse to bend, and keep bending as far as you can, then bend even farther.

Yes, there are always those of us who bend to do the best we can for our children. They should spend time with the other parent. Even if the other parent is not flexible with us. But it gets frustrating that one party bends and the other just wants their way. (BTW the courts tend to side with the flexible person re: custody/parenting time).

I think you were OK in turning down her request because you already had plans. I did that too (which lead to hearing that from the court). Keep your boundaries, and your plans with the children.

I think the children will learn to celebrate birthdays when they are with their parent. Today, youngest turned 8. We baked cupcakes last night, and she got a present this morning, and is off to dad's tonight (where they expect no cake since Grandma will be away).

I think interpreted your birthday question to mean that the "family" (parent and all kids) would want to celebrate together, not a one on one thing. That's what I would think, and others see it differently.

Do the best you can for your children, that all that any of us can do.

Newly,

"I think interpreted your birthday question to mean that the "family" (parent and all kids) would want to celebrate together, not a one on one thing. That's what I would think, and others see it differently."

I had the same interpretation, but my XWH and his A fought on this and interpret their own view. I decided not to fight them on it and just went along with it.

My children do seem to enjoy their alone time with me when it's their birthday; but I also set aside time with the rest of the family for cake and presents too.

BTW, my twins' birthday is today, they are 9 years old. We did the cup cake thing for school this morning.

Lucks & Immovingon,

I don't disagree with you as to what a judge might say the interpretation should be. I was using short-hand to express that the convention has developed that birthday time is "family" time. I, personally prefer to do something with all the kids to celebrate the birthday, though I do appreciate special one-on-one time with each child, too. If my stbxw were to request birthday-kid only, that would be fine, and I wouldn't argue.

Newly & Immovingon, congrats or happy birthday or whatever greeting is appropriate between adults who happen to be parents of children of approximately the same age - to both of you! Your children are in the neighborhood of what ages mine are. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I won't argue that my choice was the best choice possible... Maybe giving in would be "best" for appearances and reasonably good for the kids... I don't know. I do know that whenever I am nice in the use of my discretion in ways that please my stbxw, she takes that as an admission that I'm weak. For example, at the beginning of the year, I had to study a lot (in addition to working) to prepare for a couple of major professional examinations. My stbxw had previously requested that when I had a time-crunch that I allow her to spend time with the children rather than use a baby-sitter. I took her up on her offer, for a 2-month period...

Can you guess what happened next? She stopped paying child support (it's not a court order yet, but only via contract based on our SA), and promptly asserted in various filings that she had 50% custody and I was supposed to, therefore pay her CS, and asserted that my allowing her to have more time with the girls was an admission that I was unable or unwilling to be a full-time parent, etc.

Now that the period of study ended long ago, she has continued to refuse to pay CS, and has alleged criminal wrong-doing on my part (although she was the one who got arrested) so that I would be unable to get the license which I've earned (by passing said test)... Therefore my income is nearly nothing (I'm living on savings while I continue to wait for my license so that I can be freely engage in my profession in my current state).

I could be wrong, but I do believe that my stbxw's history of not being held accountable for her wrong and vicious conduct has given her a heightened sense of entitlement. I would like for her to have to confront some consequences, but not for my personal satisfaction. I believe that her sense of entitlement is her justification to be openly hostile to me around the children, and I want that to end.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing it... but I hope you see the fine line I'm trying to walk between having a backbone and stooping to the level of petty and vicious where she lives.

WBF

You are probably dealing with a PA or NPD where logic plays no role. I understand your text, so you are likely logical like me. Other's dont' always see things the way we do.
What we wonder is, how could we have lived with this person so long and never saw the vast differences. In my case, I look back and see all the lies (which continue).

There were likely no boundaries in your marriage and your attempts to establish boundaries now are foreign. And these people continue to believe that they will get what they want. "I want what I want" is a common refrain. To which I reply, "what is best for the kids?"

IMO I can't imagine having twin Leos. Yikes. Drs. appts. today. DD8 is in the 75% percentile for height and weight, and thinks she's fat. DD10 is off the charts, 100% for each (both slim). Personalities differ so much between the Leo and the Virgo.

Birthdays will be celebrated whenever possible. My family celebrates my kids birthdays a month early because that's when we visit them. The birthdays are drawn out and the kids love the attention. Now I need to get them to sit down and write the thank you notes.

Newly,

Logical... You could say that. I'm a "right-brain" kind of guy, but yes, I'm highly logical. I was an engineer for many years and am now an attorney. Logic is what I do.

Now, my question to you is this: PA = Passive Aggressive? I guess that's probably it. NPD = ???

I haven't a clue. My guesses are:

* Narcissistic Personality Disorder?
* Nutty Psycho and Demon-possessed?
* Needs Prozac Desperately?
* Nearly Perpetually Drunk?

Anyway, I suppose it's not terribly important. There is one minor update... My hope, of course, was that my stbxw would decide based on selfishness to end hostilities to get what she wants.

I guess I still wear rose-colored glasses with regards to her. Instead what she did was call the children up and told them that she had an elaborate plan of wonderful exciting adventures at some medieval fair (that she never wanted to attend when she and I were together). This fair is starting the weekend immediately before my daughter's birthday, and, of course, I am cruelly prevented her from taking them.

Clearly she told them this so that they would do the lobbying for her.

I'm disgusted, but I suppose not surprised.

My response was to invite the children to sit with me while I looked up the information about it and found that it's an even that runs for about 8 consecutive weekends, and their mother could take them to the event on HER time on the weekend immediately following the birthday. Therefore, my refusal to give her additional time poses no risk of them missing the event, and it doesn't even pose a risk that they will miss being able to attend the event very near the child's birthday.

It really bothers me that she goes out of her way to paint me as the evil ogre to our kids. If I'm as mean as she suggests, then I suspect that the kids will see it on their own. Still, it's a long-standing tradition with her. After she moved out, she told the girls that I made her move out, while also telling them that she's just trying to "live her own life." My favorite, though, was when, promptly after I picked them up from an afternoon with her, they asked me why I'm such a "master manipulator." They didn't even know what those words meant.

I'm glad I don't live in a world that exacts perfect justice because none of us would survive. Still, though, sometimes it would be nice to see justice show up a tad-bit closer in time to the behavior that flaunts it.

WBF

WBF,

I'm just amazed. For two years I have been intermediary/mediator for a divorced couple that sound so much like you and your wife. She had the affair. H tried to use MB counseling and MB strategies to no avail. Divorce was ugly, and he got primary custody of their three boys (for reasons that sound kinda similar to what happened in your case). Visitation sounds just like yours. I was their third mediator....the first two gave up. Dad's an engineer and loves his kids.

I don't know whether these other parallels fit:

Mom is language/arts type, and she loves her kids too. She's alot of fun, but Dad is more dependable. Mom is the one who creates fun, comforts them, gives them more freedom....and Dad is about structure and consistency. They both love their kids and tend to be a little hyper-focussed on them. Sometimes, it seems as though they're both competing for their love...or custody....or both. They each interpret the custody orders differently and compete for time with the kids. Every hour/day this one takes here....the other exacts from their end. They fight over who helps with school activities. They argue about who is involved in sporting events, 4H, pets, band....you name it. They're going back to court soon, so they're both trying to prove that they are the most involved or most caring parent. The less flexible one of them is....the less flexible the other. It's a real tug of war and the kids are the rope. I think each of them is secretly afraid that the other parent will win the children over to the "dark side". They're are definitely two distinct camps with different rules....and the kids are expected to adjust between them.

bounce
bounce
bounce

Emails fly back and forth everyday battling over the minutae of these kids lives. Who takes them to the doctor? Who drives them to football? Who talks to their psychologists? Who disciplines them?

Both parents have found new love....but they just can't seem to let go of the battle. I think it robs them of alot of happiness in their current relationships.

The kids are showing wear and tear....rebellion, aggression, depression, school issues, anti-social behavior, withdrawal.....and the list goes on. The oldest is in counseling, the middle son will probably need it....and the youngest little guy is desperately trying to please everybody....and can't. The kids have figured out ways how to make the situation work for them....in unhealthy ways that escalate the situation.

It sucks.

Now here's the shocker: They've been doing this for almost five years! The boys have grown up in this war zone. Thank God that this time the court has appointed a guardian ad litem....but honestly, I'm not sure anything will change for the boys unless the parents change.

So....to answer your question: I don't think it's petty at all to deny a request based on previous plans, but don't use the kids to negotiate other issues. Keep helping them to understand that you aren't an ogre (don't let mom manipulate them) without similar tactics that put their mother in a bad light. Be flexible....but be aware that being too flexible will leave you open to litigation as surely as being inflexible.

For a long time, I was able to diffuse some of this stuff....but now that their back in court....I just help when the boys need it.

Keep walking that line (tight-rope!) and doing the best balancing act you can. Keep loving your children more than you hate what your wife has done to you. I understand that she is the one trying to poison their minds....but don't reciprocate....the kids deserve at least ONE parent who is protecting them.

One of the real tragedies of divorce is that children lose their childhood. Instead of thinking about the cute guy accross the aisle, or whether they'll score a goal at soccer....they're wondering if they'll get caught in the crossfire again, and dealing with the parent's dates. Whatever you can do to protect their childhood while your STBXWW does her crazy making....is the best thing you can do.

Very well written Star. As you know, it's hard to see the shore when you are swimming in the ocean.

Yes, there is an NPD website I look at after bad interactions with X, just to remind myself that I am not insane.

And yes, mine tells the kids the same thing about moving out.

Star is a great advisor on this site.

I found that many of the MB principles are hard to put into effective action where there is an NPD or abuse situation.