Hi everybody!

I've noticed on a few threads recently, the discussion of EN's being met during recovery. With men, whose SF EN is high on the list, the question is posed, how long to wait.

I would like to take a more general approach to this question.

I have been in recovery for 3 months with PWC. AS to be expected, it has not and is not easy. PWC SEEMS to be in withdrawal, and i have no earthly idea how long that will last. I have been trying to give as best I can, knowing that SF, recreational companionship, and admiration are among his top EN's. He is currently not receptive to SF, or only slightly. We spend time together, talking, watching movies, going out now and then.

MY top EN is affection, of which I get NONE. This is very frustrating. I feel as if I'm in Plan A again, but I've read that in RECOVERY, this amounts to Plan Doormat. I have been advised to work on me, as I am doing, and to not talk about the R right now. I have been following this to a T.

My question is this. When is there a clear time for the FWS to WORK on recovery, especially on EN's of the BS? I have seen that my sitch is not that uncommon around here, and am definitely looking for guidance.

Our recovery plan is to follow MB principles. So far, PWC is doing well with most other EN's, and becoming more and more relaxed with transparency. I don't want y'all to be under the misconception that he is not doing anything.

When I found myself - strike that - when I find myself becoming grumpy about unmet needs (that taker starts to yowl) I take a good hard look at how well I am meeting my husbands needs.

Usually, I find that I am slacking on taking care of him. Fixing my own behavior usually results in my husband's renewed interest in taking care of me.

In your case - 3 months is barely into it. You still have a wild rollercoaster ahead.

Some of this you just have to wait out. Find alternative, healthy ways to get your needs met that do NOT involve the other sex.

When I needed affection....I did things like...learn to hug my kids more often. (This did wonders for my kids, they just soaked it up, I hadn't even seen how needy they were..)

When I needed entertainment...I discovered new books, games on the computer...I got back into web development, I basically got some hobbies. Some hobbies were mutually interesting, so I gave my husband an open invitation to join me. (Eventually he did join me).

You need to get your 15 hours of time in. If you aren't scheduling that 15 hours (you need more at first) then of course you aren't getting those needs met!

SL:

Does BR's post sound familiar?

You are not going to get a different answer, GF.....

You'll get alot of AFFECTION if you do PLAN SEDUCTION... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

ETA: How's it coming on the 15 hours per week?? Dates with him each weekend?? As much time as possible alone??

And what about your FEAR?

Need to get rid of the FEAR...

Thanks BR!

I feel like I'm meeting most of his EN's, working hard on myself, and do hear my TAKER loud and clear. I am trying to recognize when that happens. I come here and post when I feel frustrated, and I do feel frustrated.

Mimi also has advised me to focus on me, and I do veer off course with that, especially without the attention from PWC. He gave affection so often before, it never occurred to me that I would lose that. It SUX!

I also see other posters posing very similar questions, and that gets my whacky brain to thinkin...and sometimes that can be BAD!

I just got a call from PWC; he's in Tucson until Thursday; he calls every afternoon to talk to me and DS. I sent him a TM today saying that I missed things about him (I won't mention them here <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). He thanked me for it. I feel better already; to me, that WAS affection.

I do feel starved for it, so much so that I do hug and kiss my DS bunches, and he me.

I have some hobbies, am currently working on learning french again. I'm pretty busy with work, so I try to spend more time with DS in the evenings. I will have to work on doing things that PWC MAY be interested in, and inviting him along.

Mimi,

Good you chimed in! I think your advise is well suited for MANY here, and when I read others posting that THEIR EN's aren't being met, I wonder why no one is chiming in the way you and BR have. If these people are not reading my thread, they are not seeing the wonderful guidance given by you, as well as many others. I see people talking about THEIR EN's not being filled, and some posters telling them that they wouldn't stand for it (seems those who divorced are more likely to take this stance, just an observation, not a judgment)

Let's look at the fear that is consuming my thoughts right now, and pushing that dang TAKER forward.

Our first false recovery was looooong, and I lived a dry spell of NONE of my EN's being fulfilled. This is not true NOW, as PWC does fill nearly all of my top needs. My fear is that my need for affection will go unfulfilled. That scares me. I lived in that even BEFORE the A's, probably partly due to me not filling his EN's.

Now that I've written that, I see that the fear comes from the past, not the present.

Mimi, I plan on working harder on the seduction, even if it's just touch or looking at him. The 15 hours are there, they are just kinda BANAL. Not much excitment. I am trying to find ways for us to get out of the house together ALONE more often, but our babysitting network is pretty small. I'll have to look at the library and locally to see if there are any teenagers with babysitting training.

Can you describe what he's like that makes you say that he is in WITHDRAWAL? (I'm not saying he isn't. I just wonder what he's like)

What does he do when he comes home from work?

Why do you say that he is not interested in SF? I thought you said he liked it when you wore the VS stuff.

I called the local highschool and told the guidance counselor that I needed a sitter.

I had 3 girls by the end of the week.

And SL...

Now you know why vets seem to be choosy about help.

I don't post where either others have more expertise and are already there...or...I do not post where it is clear that my voice will not be welcome.

I've decided that lately, this has become a divorce support board, not a marriage board.

As to the first question, he is most often sullen, quiet. Given, this is mostly WITH ME. I can't speak for others. He keeps a physical distance, he is aloof. Again, this is ONLY my interpretation. Maybe he is just changed, and I have to adapt to that. I really don't know, I can only tell you what seems OFF to me, in the now.

As a 'for instance'. He sits down on the couch. I sit down next to him. He puts his arm across the back, I do too, and reach over and put my hand on his arm; he apologizes, like he's in my way, and takes his arm down. This happens in many other forms, if I bump into his arm in bed, or rub into his foot, same thing, 'sorry' and he moves away. I'm trying not to interpret this, but it's hurtful when i do, like I'm a stranger. Maybe I am.

When he comes home from work, he comes in and changes his clothes, then he comes out from the bedroom and asks how my day was or I ask how his day was; we talk a bit about my day, his day, then he hangs out with DS a bit, plays games with him.

PWC shows no interest in physicality with me, in general, and that includes SF. It's even an OBVIOUS strain for him to touch me on the knee or touch my hand or touch me at all, anytime. I touch him pretty regularly. When I 'dressed up' for him, he responded physically, albeit slowly, some THINGS didn't respond as well as they USED to <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. THat was not a problem before, EVER, not even in our false recoveries. HE's not on meds of any kind, so I can only guess as to why.

I can only surmise that I need to just be more VOCAL about sex. It may be time for me to ask some questions. I really don't want to continue to GUESS how, when, what he likes. Maybe this has changed. Like I said, I could just breathe in his direction before, and it was a go.

As I've said, our relationship, prior to our DS's third year, was filled with touching and laughing and talking. SF was low, not because he wanted it that way, it was ME, but all else was good. I can only say that he is not like he used to be right now, and may have made changes or is CHANGED from this whole experience.

BR, I'll look into that, Thanks bunches!

BR, I see a lot of people stopping half way into a plan A and getting angry and filing for a D and blaming their WS. I won't mention the couple that I have come across and attempted to help. ONe of which is celebratory of said decision.

I do not come here for divorce advice, I come here for marital and personal recovery advice.

I do appreciate that you have dropped in on my threads from time to time, but I understand that you see Mimi helping, and would, most likely, only be reiterating what she's saying. Nevertheless, every little bit helps. You may have a point to offer before Mimi thinks of it, and that is important to me.

I, obviously, have much work to do, and this coaster is not going to slow down for that. I was reading my very first thread on here, where Mimi told me I sounded more like a general and less like a spouse to my WH. SHe put me in my place lickety split. It took most of the summer and part of the fall to really begin changing how I thought of things and turning the focus off of PWC. I am STILL trying to take the focus off of him, and it is working.

I come here when I feel weak, dismantled, and need to be slapped back on course. To me, you guys are my guides on this journey. You tell me what's good to see and do, and I make the choices, according to my particular sitch, of how to handle things. Patience does not come overnight. Consider going from being a general to a spouse. That's a big leap. I'm learning to be a partner and not THE BOSS.

Are their certain RITUALS that you used to do as a PRELUDE to being intimate?

It was helpful to me to APPROACH my H like HE was a stranger that I was trying to SEDUCE. Don't get me wrong. I have no experience with this. My H is the ONLY MAN that I have ever been with..but I USED MY CREATIVITY and IMAGINATION...

I realized that HE WAS UNCOMFORTABLE WITH ME like your H seems to be..it was like he had to get back IN PRACTICE with me but didn't know how...I had to be the LEADER...

Basically, MY GOAL was for HIM to FALL IN LOVE WITH ME AGAIN..MY GOAL was to be IRRESITIBLE...

I don't know if this will be helpful to YOU or not..I knew MY H would like these things...THINK..THINK...ABOUT WHAT YOUR H WOULD LIKE...

Here goes: I dressed and undressed in front of him AS IF I was not doing it on purpose...I did it casually as if I did not notice that he was there..I made a point to kiss him goodby and hello each day..began to say I love you each time we got off the phone..began to call him PET NAMES all the time...STUFF LIKE THIS..acting like a teenager girl flirting with him alot...

So rather than TALKING to him directly about how I was HOT for him..I used ACTIONS...

I still do this stuff which is NEW for me since RECOVERY and it has become the NEW NORMAL....

Let me just say...mimi usually nails it head on. when it comes to by the book MB....she's IT..hands down.

A BS shows up here in shock. Plan A is very therapeutic...its something that can be done. Towards the end of plan A, into Plan B...the anger sets in.

Thats when I try to help. But unfortunately without a willingness to do the personal work .... divorce is almost a guarantee.

Recovery requires fundamental changes - I am convinced. It's not enough to just follow the rules, A and B. A BS must really step into personal responsibility and really examine his or her motivations behind every choice....or the so called Plans become simply Plan Lovebust.

My husband said to me just this weekend (we've been revisiting history because of a personal friend in crisis that we are supporting) ... that he would never have made the decision to come home if he had not been convinced that *I* really *got* what I had done to *HIM*.

I can hear that outraged snorts of BS everywhere reading this...

but ... I *had* failed my husband in many ways. By changing myself in the most fundamental ways...it was clear that I was not playing games - my changes were real.

My husband had no intention of coming back to a marriage where I was right, he was wrong, and my behavior was more of the same.

And it was SCARY....but I did it ANYWAY...

Thanks so much.

BR, I get what I did TO HIM, AGAINST HIM, and I am working to remedy that by working on myself. I used to view relationships in a black and white way, they worked or they didn't, AND if they didn't, it was time to cut bait. Boy, was I WRONG.

I have actually become closer to some of my girlfriends because of my changes, my honesty with them, without judgment. I've always called it like i see it, but I never tried opening myself to the possiblity that MY way of seeing it was not the ONLY way.

I only hear outraged snorts of those who are not 'there' yet, still living in teh pain and anger, or those that refuse to look at themselves. BR, it took me a great deal of time to get here, and I don't plan on backpeddaling now. *I* did fail my husband. I know this, and that is what I'm changing now, ME.

WE don't live in that I'm right, your wrong world anymore around here; anyway, i prefer to be told I'm off base these days anyway; it lets me off the hook of perfection. I hated being up there.

Mimi,

WHAM, you 'nailed it', as BR said.
this...



is what I was trying to articulate with far too many words. I do feel he is uncomfortable. Practice means that frequency needs to be upped. It's beginning to sink in. THat dang TAKER can really get in the way, early on in recovery. My TAKER, right now, is my anger and confusion manifesting itself.

What's good, that I have been doing, is dressing in front of him and disrobing as well, every day, sometimes twice as often on days that we swim. Another good thing, he was laying in bed ready to 'hit the sack' when I said that I was going to get in the hot tub, and I would like it if he joined me, but he didn't HAVE TO. He did!

I'm more comfortable/relaxed around him, so now I see that I have to work toward HIM being comfortable with me. Making things seem nonchalant, non forced, even when I am SCARED.

I can't believe I am scared of my PWC; I love him, have a long history with him, yet my mind will race when I'm about to do something, like kiss him or be seductive. I even tell myself, in my head, that my reaction is crazy, but my heart STILL pounds to the point that I feel it in my neck. It's a build up against almost nothing; against my fears, especially of rejection. That fear ALONE will bring my part of our recovery to a grinding halt if I don't learn to let it go.

I'm learning that REJECTION is my biggest fear, my strongest weakness.

Sometimes, when I get advice here, from the recovered, I can't see the forrest for the trees. I can't see that you, too, have felt and lived very similar circumstances, and that, not only do you understand the fear, you had the same ones, and that they are surmountable. I don't mean that I think you *POOF* are MB fairies; I recognize that you are all survivors; it's just hard to imagine you being weak. You are all so well adjusted, so happy with yourselves and in your lives now, that it's hard to picture you where I am right now. I wouldn't wish this fate on anyone, but I'm glad that I have you survivors to sail along with.

Wow SL, that's a good post. You've come quite a way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Very proud of you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here, take this MB 2x4. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> U R now 'empowered'.

Just don't blame yourself too much. It makes even a recovered Xws start to feel selfish.

take care,
L.

SL,

Just to chime in for a second ... my FWH did the same thing regarding lacks of affection for six months in my Plan A mode, which I didn't do the best, but the best I could under the circumstances.

Plan B was skipped over, ready to go right into Plan D when neither one of us could take it anymore.

Three days for him alone, he finally hit bottom and begged for another chance. Since then, he he been more than affectionate and loving, and more of a husband than I have had it 25 years. Sometimes I still pinch myself. I truthfully, sometimes I wait for other shoe to drop. But so far, so good.

Strange how things work out. But I just wanted to say I know that horrible feeling when they don't give back. It is really hurtful.

Good luck to you.

There isn't a "clear time." What you are asking for is the equivalent of "benchmarks" in a Project Flow Chart.

People don't work that way. I'm betting that that the problem you are dealing with is more "in his head" than anything else, and that it involves him and his perception of himself than anything that has to do with you.

YOU want Affection. Surprise, surprise. That is high on MOST women's list while sex is further down the list. That is because that is how women tend to "feel loved" and to "show that they love someone."

Men are "wired" differently. That's why sex is most often at, or very near, the top EN they express. That's because men SHOW they love someone through sex. That's how they see themselves as "showing someone I love you."

But now the "normal course of husband/wife interaction" has been disrupted and derailed by the inclusion of 3rd party and the mental conflict that this causes.

I can't recall if you and your husband are Christians, so I'll refrain from biblically based advice at this time. But you really might want to talk with your husband about whether or not he is struggling with "guilt feelings" about what he did. If he is, you must address that issue first, or all your other attempts to "help" will be filtered and distorted by guilt and unworthiness feelings.

God bless.

Thanks FH!

I appreciate the information. I have most definitely been made aware of the ranking of SF for MOST men, and do believe that this is high on the list for PWC.

I have wondered if the 'guilt' is getting in the way. I am trying my best to keep that far and away from this recovery. I do not PUT any of that upon him, but have often wondered if he feels even more guilty, because I am working so hard, and being kind and showing love.

Don't know exactly what I will DO about any of this. When/if we have in depth conversation, I may bring this up, if he seems receptive to the topic. I don't want to blind side him with this, but I do want to offer a safe place to discuss it.

Immediately.

During "recovery" both spouses are making a conscious deliberate choice to repair the damaged relationship...the time to pull your weight is always "now".

That is how you counter entitlement and nurture investment.

"You pull for awhile and I'll see how I feel in six months" is a recipe for disaster on sooo many levels and sets up a buyer/freeloader relationship.