I think this speaks to what I'm really asking here. I'm not trying to GET what I want, I'm trying to understand what peoples experiences are with their FWS 'pulling' their weight. What did that translate to for other BS's?

I hear and read about many people who say that their FWS was not 'enthusiastic' about recovery initially, but that, over time (whatever that was for them) they noticed their FWS really beginning to step into recovery mode. I don't think I've read many threads stating that the FWS jumped right in.

When I read what noodle posted, I become a bit weary of where things are in MY recovery right now, and THIS is why I have posted this topic. This is not to push PWC, this is to understand what more I could be doing BESIDES only filling EN's. If I am not to discuss the R, how do we discuss recovery? They go hand in hand, don't they? It's a bit confusing to me.

I will admit that this points to me wanting to DO something to HELP recovery along. I do NOT want to make demands, but I feel it has been three months and WE both need more direction. PWC was in IC, and has stopped; we are not in MC, and when discussed, there is not definitive. *I* have a plan and guidance, PWC has none of that. He talks to no one about this.

Now, for us, this may mean a much slower recovery, which I would be a-okay with, if I had some show from him that I am doing what he needs. He doesn't even tell me that. We talk, but it's fluff, current events, music, movies, etc. We NEVER talk about our course for recovery. We never delve into OUR issues.

I hear that I should just continue to work on me, and fill EN's when he will let me, with what he will let me. I totally and completely agree with this and 'get' it.

Maybe it's just differing opinions of the recovered as to how to get there. When I read this, a red flag goes up.

I don't want to only have this discussion for ME, but for others STRUGGLING in recovery right now. I read on the recovery board, but not many post there, and, unlike on the PlanA/PlanB board and Just found out board, there are no 'guidelines' pinned to the top of the board.

This is exactly what I was going to ask. Whether you guys are in MC yet. If not, why not, and what do the vets think about that. I think I recall reading Pepperband, for example, saying she didn't believe recovery was possible without MC, or had never seen it happen, or something like that.

I don't see how MC with MB-understanding counselor could hurt, especially if he is not opposed.

It depends on your standard and definition of the word "recovery".

It takes effort to recover anything and choices and decisions are part of the process.

I do not at all buy into tolerating the "reluctant" spouse post plan B...their opportunity to be reluctant existed during plans A and B and became inappropriate when they agreed to recover. They do not have the right to waste your time trying to climb back ON the fence now that you are safely reinvested.

So what exactly is it that you need to be satisfied with his effort and what is keeping you from being above board about that?

Part of the reason that we are not in MC is that I have discussed it, trying to hear PWC out, and he doesn't say much. He doesn't say much about anything. This is part of my frustration.

I don't know where HE is in recovery, because we don't discuss it. I feel that MC or some form of coaching is what we need, or at least what *I* need. I am not feeling very comfortable right now, in my 'reinvestment'. I feel things are oddly similar to our first false recovery. I do a pseudo PLAN A, and wait. That scares me, certainly.

PWC was 'in' it initially. Reading MB information, discussing it with me, and after about a month, nothing. Now, I worry that this is complacency. Like, 'Ok, I'll cross my fingers and see...".

I have not talked to PWC about how I FEEL as of late. I'm taking advice to continue to work on me and to fill his EN's as best I know. I'm doing that. HIS actions don't show me much about his part in recovery, or his personal recovery, but this could be because things are slowly occurring.

Yes, he does fill some of my EN's, domestic support, family involvement, financial. Aside from asking about my day, he is very detached, physically and mentally. I feel like I am AGAIN faced with a person who talks a good game, but when reality hits, he disappears. This is what I've been trying to get at by posting my fears. I can try to dispell them myself all I can, but they are based in HIS actions in the past. When his actions begin to match the past MO, red flags go up.

I NOW feel like we need more structured guidance, but I cannot demand that he do it.

Oh, sorry noodle, to answer the question of what I think would satisfy me... talk to me, tell me what I can do, open the door for me to talk to him, and feel open to tell him what HE could do. Reassure me that I am on the right track.

I did ask him to be open with me about recovery when we initiated, but have heard nothing from him. I have been attributing his silence to withdrawal, but in truth, I wonder why he can't go through the motions, as I am. This feels so very lopsided to me.

That is why I ask, is this behavior consistent with those who are recovering, have recovered?

Obviously, I have put off talking about these things, as I have been trying to avoid talk about the R, but I think it's becoming the elephant in the room, at least, for me.

You cannot FORCE him to be willing to do it but you CAN tell him that YOU are UNWILLING to continue without his full participation and investment.

I certainly don't want to force anyone to do anything, especially considering they may not WANT to do it.

Honestly, maybe PWC just wants it all to work itself out. I don't, I want to work it out myself. We may find ourselves differing on HOW to recover. Yes, I set forth conditions under which I would end Plan B, and he, for the most part, has satisfied those, but recovery is a different ball game. Ending Plan B is one thing, diving into recovery, I'm finding, is a very large ocean.

I may take it upon myself to call Jennifer again, and invite PWC to sit in. Funds are very low right now, but a divorce would cost so much more...

BR says this,



and I wholeheartedly agree; I have stepped this up the last couple of days. I do feel like I may have slacked a bit; I was beginning to feel 'drained' and needed to step back.

Hi SL ~ noodle makes a good point though.

He does need to participate in recovery and pull his weight.

You can't force him, you can't demand or even expect...you can only lead the way with your own behavior.

This is why MB counseling is SO crucial for recovery. You need a MB pro to make your demands for you.

You could schedule some time, sans children, and say...hey, can I get some feedback from you? How am I doing?

You should not be tiptoeing around him. Speak up about how you feel about this.

BR, this was what I was thinking of doing this weekend. Getting some kid free time, friend free time to ask him how he thinks *I'm* doing, and getting some feedback. This usually pulls him into the conversation; I can ususally see the wheels spinning in his head by his expression, and soon after, he makes a comment about himself.

I want to begin counseling with MB. I will ask him to consider it; maybe to read up some more and give me some feedback. If he wants to attempt MC in state, that's fine too, but I feel we need to find a place for guidance. I'm more than happy to listen to him and understand what I could be doing better, but he has to first be guided to talk by another party. I cannot force it out of him, and I don't want to be a bully.

I'd love to say that I'm strong enough to WAIT for things to evolve, but that's asking for a very long time. I fear I will burnout before PWC steps up.

I do feel like I am tiptoeing, but it's only around the actual talking about our R. WE do both need an outlet WITH EACHOTHER, to build on intimacy. I don't feel that is happening, and that sets the stage for bad things.

Can y'all tell I'm tired? Whew. It sounds horrible, I know, but I need MORE than I am seeing right now. I'm asking for DIRECTION with him, not for him to cut off his arm and flog himself with it. I'm not about pain anymore. I long for OUR happiness (this includes him, not just me).

Thank you. This is what I have been thinking but reluctant to say directly, because what the ****** do I know?

SL, your posts say to me "Hey, we're floundering here. Is this how it's supposed to be?" I would want more direction if I were you. Some of it is that it's early, of course, but if MC will help take time off the total, why not do it?

Hey guy smiley!

Don't ever be reluctant to say what you feel is best for me to hear. That is just fine with me.

I am saying that I feel we're floundering, and I hear a lot of the same sentiment from many on the boards. I was beginning to think that there was nothing to be done but wait for PWC to step it up. I'm not being overly critical here either. I, quite literally, feel like I'm being doled scraps again. Like the minimum is enough (this makes me think of "Office Space" and the amount of flare that Jennifer Aniston's character wore, the minimum). I just don't think the minimum will do, and I am becoming more and more reluctant to stick my neck further and futher out.

I, personally, feel like too much is being asked of me, while I lick up whatever is thrown my way.

I mowed the lawn, and talked to you, I planted flowers and gave them loads of care and attention. This is just not working for me. The lawn can go brown and dry up and die, as well, as the flowers, as long as our M doesn't. I appreciate the beauty that this creates around the home. I just don't feel that it should be more important than our current plight.

I praise him on what I feel is a lot of domestic/family support, but *I* cannot thrive on that. This is a marriage, right? Am I mistaken to believe that it needs to include TWO people working toward a common goal.

I'm beginning to feel like his is to have a place to live, not a wife. THat would be his decision, but I deserve to know this. I deserve to be given the chance to make an informed decision as to whether I should continue on, and even up the ante, or be finished. It's not right to reap the benefits of having a wife, and not return the favor, and I mean in terms of intimacy and a confidant. Right now, affection is my top EN for a reason.

Yes, it's early, I guess, but I've never RECOVERED before, so how would I know? I need to contact the Harley's regardless of PWC. *I'm* floundering, losing hope and faith that PWC will show ME love again. I'm concerned, and need some guidance.

The professionals may well tell me to step up my game. I'm more than willing to hear that I'm not doing enough; I currently feel like I'm doing more than the minimum, much, much more. Having feedback from PWC would be great, and I'm hoping to get that. What I'm doing may not be HOW PWC wants it. THis is vital information. And I would be lying if I said that I hope he asks the question of me "How am I doing, what can I be doing?" I hope the door opens up for two way conversation.

I feel ridiculous living life like a stranger in my own home.

But why do you say that he is not participating in Recovery?

I don't get that...

My H came back a MESS...

Is this about HIM or your FEAR, SL?

Just wondering...

The Harleys say that WITHDRAWAL can last up to 6 months...

And...let me remind you...

recovery is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more difficult than Plan A or Plan B.

Thats why you have to lead by example....and take care of yourself....

while encouraging your husband to participate

Are you afraid he is still in contact?

See Mimi, that is what I'm saying. What is withdrawal to others? Yes, I'm fishing to get an idea of what RECOVERY should look like. What basics should be followed. I have never been IN recovery. I've had some goes at it, false as they may have been, but never been IN it.

I can do all that I can, but I don't think our M will be saved by me alone, will it?

What is considered commitment and participation? Did you feel this uncomfortable? I feel very weary. I am tired, I'll give you that, and I may need MORE reassurance from PWC. I need to communicate to him that I am weary. *I* may need more direction FROM him, even if it is just to say to keep on keepin on. My FEAR is keeping me FROM saying anything, for fear that I will hear something similar to last year. I FEAR that he will repeat his last performance, as I feel his participation is at that same level right now. Should I keep silent about this? I'm truly asking. I'm very confused as to WHAT to say to him, if anything.

I hear people stating that he SHOULD pull his weight. What is that weight? What SHOULD PWC be doing? Right now, he is existing, breathing in and out, day by day. Now, if you tell me just to keep things as they are, I will take that under advisement. Again, I've never been IN recovery, adn never worked this diligently on myself.

This is about HIM and my FEAR. My fears are what they are. I am working on them, most assuredly, but I don't want to ignore what I feel in this. I need a voice. If that needs to be with the Harley's, then I'm fine with that. They probably have the BEST 2 x 4's.

Mimi, your guidance and history has been so helpful to ME, and I value every scintilla of advise you have given.

In the end, this is about saving my M.

BR,

Honestly, I have no idea if he is still in contact. Again, unless it is through the three accounts that I have access to, or on his cell phone, I wouldn't know.

He is either at work or at home. He is with me all hours except those at work. I suppose I could ask again. I asked about two months ago, and he had contact twice in May. Once right after he came home, and one a couple of weeks later. Since then, I've seen and heard nothing. It was around the time after we came home from vacation that I noticed PWC withdrawing.

I'm becoming more and more aware of how long recovery could take (I expect at least two years before we hit a solid groove)

I'm trying to lead by example, and wonder if that example may not need to include ME counseling with someone. I feel like I need it, even if only to bolster my plan and reaffirm I'm on the right track.

I admit to being scared, and I admit that *I* need help.

I'm glad you brought this up because I was thinking this while reading this thread about my own FWH's aloofness (I thought) at first during recovery. He finally opened up to me (way later) and told me that he felt such SHAME about what he had done.

He worked on himself diligently for the first few months when we first got back together (intense counseling, getting back in relationship with God, etc). In fact, I was jealous that he was working so hard on himself and not "us". I was thinking "What about me?" (I didn't have MB then.)

I was trying so hard (candlelight showers, cooking favorite meals, etc) and he wasn't responding.

We had to talk this out but it didn't happen for awhile. He was horrified that I was feeling this way because I didn't tell him.

He also told me that I needed to work on me. What?!?! But he was right. I had to go through my own personal growth and healing too.

It took a long time for us to get back to us. It takes time.

Thanks for your input, princessmeggy.

I just want the opportunity to talk about this with PWC. I certainly don't want to compound any guilt that he may be feeling. If he is, I would like to give him an outlet, and at the same time, show him that he is safe with me.

I am working on me, and would hope to respond well if he noticed things that I could be working on. It would be more helpful than hurtful. Hurt I can get over, but I need his help right now, probably more than anyone else. I need his input, his critique.




BR has said this, and Mimi has said it AD NAUSEUM, and I do hear it. I think the 'encouraging your husband to participate' is the part I need to work on.

So, I wasn't reluctant to tell you something you didn't want to hear. I'm reluctant to give advice when I'm not sure it's good. Who am I to talk about recovery?

Anyway, I would guess that his behavior is pretty normal for recovering WS's. Remember how we said we much preferred to be the BS based on what the WS has coming? It's hitting home for him--withdrawal from the Fog and onset of reality can't be a whole lot of fun.

Having said that, however, there's no way I would want to undertake recovery without guidance from a professional (for all the reasons you have spelled out). I don't know that it HAS to be MB, but I suspect that would be best option.

Keep up the good work, SL. I'm really proud of you.