Hi PM,

Thanks for your insights. Glad you have a great high paying job. Are you in a legal-type profession?

This is interesting:


Is there a formal legal term for the "form of alimony to help the less-income spouse recover"?

Also it's interesting that there are provisions related to an adulterous condition to the divorce (or dissolution) in Texas and possibly other states. Is there a term for this, too? I'm going to check this out for a friend who i$ being dumped on big time. The states involved are CA where they were married and Michigan, where he lived at the time he fraudulently represented himself just previous to their M.

Thanks, PM and any others who might know these answers.

Ace

Whenever I see threads about no-fault divorces, I like to bring up information about covenant marriages.

Covenant marriage legislation seemed to have hit it's heyday in the late 90 and early 2000's.

A covenant marriage is, basically, what most people think of as the traditional style of marriage. The marriage can only be dissolved under the "old style" (prior to no fault) rules such as: Mutual agreement, adultery, abandonment, abuse, etc.

Covenant marriages are a voluntary option in 3 states (last I checked) : Arkansas, Arizona, and Louisiana. You can convert an existing marriage to a covenant marriage or couples can choose the option when they get married. (I do not know how that affects divorce in no fault states.)

The reason I keep bringing this up is because as a political strategy, I think it would be much easier to push for this type of legislation than it would to push for unilateral legislation changing existing divorce laws. Politicians are always worried about the next election. The last I looked that the statistics... the volunteers (conversion or new marriages) in the states that have covenant marriages were all substantially less then 10% (less than 5%, really). So, no politician who wants to be re-elected is likely to take a look at those numbers and think that mandating a "return to no-fault" is going to do anything but send him home on the next election round.

If people really want this to catch on -- and to have success in the political arena, I think what needs to happen is that: 1.) they should use the existing boilerplate legislation on covenant marriages (the work has been done!) 2.) Work on education about the benefits of covenant marriages (I bet most people don't even know they exist) and 3.) garner enough voluntary movement towards that type of marital commitment to establish a credible foothold in changing the existing laws.

Since covenant marriages are designed to be voluntary, they're probably much, much easier to get passed through a state government. A lawmaker isn't going to need nearly as much persuading to vote FOR giving people the option of making stronger marriages - it's not controversial (like changing existing divorce laws would be).

I imagine if the percentage of new marriages + conversions went into the majority (50+ percent) of people who were offered covenant marriages then you wouldn't have any problems getting the legislature to consider changing existing no fault divorce laws. But, as long as there is data out there showing that only one half of one percent (or such low numbers) of people are willing to make that commitment -- politicians are simply not going to do anything about it.

If people really want change to the no fault laws.. I think this would be a good strategy to follow. If nothing else, if it were available and people knew about it they would know what type of commitment their fiance' was making to them on their wedding day.

Just my thoughts,

Mys

Hi Mys,

Thank you so much for your insightful post. I cannot post during the day (and had a huge distraction over the weekend), but I'm glad you brought this up.

I will research covenant marriage more, but in the meantime, here is one source of info.

Covenant Marriage Pros & Cons

Intriguing concepts.....I'm also curious about the asset aspect and how division might be affected if/when a couple chooses a Covenant Marriage and one partner has an A as grounds for a D.

Again, I truly appreciate your taking time to introduce this option, Mys. I did not search for no-fault D's when I started this thread but I'm glad sickofthis1961 mentioned it.

Ace

Mys,

Is your story listed somewhere on one thread? If so, could you link it?

I'm still checking up on Covenant Ms and how they're designed to avoid no-fault Ds.

Thanks,
Ace

Er.... I've typed it out a couple of times in various places but I've been around a long time and I have no idea how to find those.

I'd fill it in now but I have a program due tomorrow and I just changed languages ... (starting from scratch).

My point about covenant marriages is that they might be something more possible in terms of realistic legislative action. Or, to be blunt: politicians want to be elected. Though there is lots of 'lip service' out there about "saving marriages" the empirical evidence (50%+ divorce rate) suggests that this type of move would probably not be welcomed by the base constituency (besides.. how many congress people do you think WANT to do away with no fault divorces).

I think that might change if they became much more popular. I don't know if they can, though. This website has an understandable bias towards saving marriages (that's why we're here!) but I don't think that translates into popular support in the public arena. Ex. Look at what goes on in Hollywood.

Anyway, I have to code....have a good evening.

Mys

Media driven marriage busting. Embraced by the American society as a whole.

It was disheartening (but expected) that very little media attention was given to Bill and Hillary's apparent successfull attempt to "WORK" at recovering their M after the media blasted his "indiscretion" all over the world. (I didn't read his whole book, but saw parts where he endured day-long sessions of marriage counseling individually and also together....gave me new respect for both of their efforts.)

Unfortunately, I think you're right, Mys....if the pendulum COULD swing, the uphill battle would probably be ignored by the media and Hollywood-driven glorification of affairs in general.

A whole new aspect to the term "Affair$ Suck"......and we are all paying for this glorification of A's when we rent the DVDs or buy the theater tickets. Me included. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So what's the solution?

Ace

I think it's about expectation. Often, when you hear about celebrity couples hooking up, they immediately start talking about the (inevitable) break up.

I think that creates expectations in the public mind.

I don't think people expect, on their wedding day, to get divorced... but they probably really don't think about just how long “for life” is, either. They don't conceptualize what “worse” really can mean.

Go back to my Grandparent's generation (married over 60 years till he passed away) and you find people who really expected life. Their worse was living through a depression, a world war, high infant mortality and diseases (polio...etc.) that we don't worry about today.

The current expectation is that marriages can and sometimes should end. Back in the day, there probably were people who stayed married despite abuse, adultery, etc. There was a revolution to change that – but part of that revolution also changed the expectations about marriage.


I don't know that there is any one solution.

A solution to differing expectations might be to offer choices – at least pair up the people who want “till death do us part” to really mean that unless there are dire circumstances. And let people who don't want that expectation to pair up. That doesn't fix it on a societal level (children) but it might create some mixed expectations out there with regard to choices – people might not realize that lasting, “till death do us part” marriages are a valid expectation rather than some oddity.

From a pragmatic political point of view, I think the covenant marriage movement has or had potential. These days people are so distracted by the definition of marriage (one man, one woman or whatever) that this issue has gotten pushed to the side of the road. We might have to wait until that gets straightened out before any real progress on this front is made. (I know, it's cynical ... but hey, it's politics)

Heh. I wrote all of that above yesterday (9/12) and just finally got back to it this morning. I love grad school (not!).

Mys

Mys

I had thought this indicated that you were signing off from this thread. So glad you wrote your post yesterday and posted it today.....just as the thread was sliding off into oblivion.

Grad school, huh? Good for you! When do you finish? You mentioned 'code'.....not sure what that means....and also 'languages'...how does that relate?

Like you, I don't know that there is a solution for society as a whole. Your 'expectation' theory seems to be true, but it depends on the individual's environment. (Media impacts that in a huge way.)

For us, if we had D'd, it would have been the first in our family. I'm sure that played a part in my changing my mind to work on recovery instead of proceeding to plan D......even if I had been seeking a way out of our 32 years of (my) misery.

Maybe Covenant M's can make a comeback during the upcoming political cycles. Wonder which candidates might broach the subject. Any thoughts?

Ace

I just started — this is my first semester as a grad student (finished my BS in the spring) and I also teach here at the college. There really should be a thread somewhere on how badly school impacts marriages -- one of highest rates of divorces comes from the "in school or just out" demographic and I know why.

I think I'll be done in 2 years. I'm getting my master's in computer science. Coding was a reference to writing a program to analyze some data. I was trying to use a new (to me) programming language that is better suited for the task (Perl) in an effort to learn it, but ended up falling back on a more familiar, general all purpose language ( C++) in order to meet my deadline. It's finished and turned in now.


I think there will be more luck at the local/state level. Right now, I think everyone's too distracted by the gay marriage debate on the national level. Covenant marriages are implemented on a state by state basis. However, I don't think there's a lot of resistance to them because, as I said, they are voluntary and don't add a lot of overhead to the system. The biggest problem is how badly they are doing in other states.

Mys

Good luck on Grad school. It feels great when they had you that piece of paper.

I would like to live in fantasy land believe in the elimnation of no-fault.

I moved from a no-fault, to a state that will change asset distribution if there is cause.

Hi Mys,

You mentioned:


Congratulations on earning your BS and teaching so quickly. Most colleges require a masters to teach. Interesting that you're earning yours .....is it an intern sort of program?


So what are the main reasons why?

There's a poster on the EN forum (Reprobrate Mind) who used to post on Marriedfor30yrs' thread (Forgiveness ~ Recovery forum)....anyhow he hasn't posted much lately and I'm sure it's because he's in law school. But he was often posting during class! (RM...are you lurking? Married was asking about you on the 50 Something thread!) Like Just Learning, he was seeking info to overcome a crossroads in his M.

Like I mentionoed, Mys, I don't know anything about your sitch, but I'm intrigued as to your theories on how Covenant M's could strengthen families and more recently why/how school dooms some Ms.


Fled, you said:


It seems that if your state is this progressive (or old fashioned, whichever the case may be), wouldn't they make a provision to decrease the OW/OC 'sucking effect' on the father factor if you could prove she intended to be a mooch and a leach? Wouldn't that be 'cause' that you could benefit from without having a D? I obviously do not know how these things work, but it seems that of all the sad stories on this thread, yours and Flyrec's seem to have the worst long-term effects due to system inequities.

There must be a solution somewhere. Not sure what you studied/teach in school, Mys....but are you award if there any new remedies on the horizon? (Changes in no-fault or other-child support procedures)

Thanks,
Ace

Thank you for the congratulations.

Heh. What it's really about is cheap labor. I'm what's known as a GTA (Graduate Teaching Assistant). It's a way for colleges to have low level undergraduate courses taught by people who are getting advanced degrees. They don't pay us very much at all — but at least they give me free tuition.


Time. Time. Time. Time. Time.

Learning takes time. Classes are only the beginning — then you have homework to do and, if you're serious about the subject, lots of outside supplementary reading about current research to really understand what's going on.

One teacher commented: If you're not here from 8am until 2am 6 days a week then you're not really serious about your graduate degree.

Is it really that bad? Well, I'd say I average 7 days a week from 5:30 am to around 7 pm trying to get things done. On a slow week, I'm doing 12 hours a day between reading, going to classes, preparing my classes (I teach), and doing homework.

That doesn't leave a lot left to fill EN's of your spouse. And, even though I have a very patient spouse who is encouraging and is pulling more than his fair share... it is putting a serious strain on the relationship.

You're sort of [email]d@mned[/email] if you do and [email]d@mned[/email] if you don't, too. If you try to take less of a load then it just takes LOOONNNGGER. If you try to get through as fast as you can (consolidate your course load) then you may as well kiss your spouse goodbye on the first day of classes until finals are over.

Of course, all of that might just be because I'm not really smart enough to do things any faster. I have considered that possibility.

I'll give you one clear example of how school messes things up.

Our 10th wedding anniversary fell during Spring Break in '06. We had planned a week away in a cabin in Colorado. Right before Spring Break, my instructor gave us a programming assignment due during Spring Break. H ended up going without me — because there was no possible way I could do the assignment AND go. I made a very poor choice because — just my luck — so many people didn't do the assignment, the instructor ended up dropping it, anyway. I'll never get that time back (not that I'm bitter or anything...)

You see, vacations aren't vacations - they're opportunities for long homework assignments. There aren't any weekends. And, since you're always learning new material, there's no way to accurately judge how long it's going to take you to figure something out. It's life without boundaries (assuming you want to do well in school and actually pass).


Mmmm? Asking what?


Here's the basic summary.

Together 15+ years (met in college the first time around, he was my math tutor). Married 11(we lived together before marriage.)

No affairs.

No children.

I post mostly on EN's..or used to. I tend to post a lot about boundaries and POJA rather than affairs. Or, the occasional political thread or (even though I shouldn't) the occasional religious discussion.

I don't much post about actual affair stuff (Plan A, Plan B, exposure) though I've tossed the occasional thought in a thread.

Mys

Just as an aside....

Consider that any time external boundaries for a marriage are hard to protect — marriages are in danger.

School isn't the only culprit.

Think of military marriages - where you have enlisted personnel who can be ordered away from their families for months - years at a time. Look at how quickly those marriages are degenerating and the problems that spring from that.

Any time you are in a situation where the external time constraints are unbounded (15 hours isn't a realistic reality)— it's inevitable that marital strain will result.

Some times and some people are put in situations (like our military) where there is no option - which is why I, for one, am grateful to them for their service. Watching the widespread disintegration of military families has been a true tragedy.

Mys
(military brat)

Hi Mys,

You seemed to quote half of that statement and then wondered:



I think my parens made that a bit confusing; I was making a comment to RM ~ Reprobate Mind, the law student ~ about Marriedfor30yrs asking about him on the 50 something thread. It's a silly thread I started for a diversion on the recovery forum. Check it out sometime, Mys, if your studies are so intense you need a break.

There's a cool link to a buffalo/lions video on YouTube that we kicked around with MB principles analogies. I think it's around page 7 or so....guess I should check. I used to be anti-fun thread until I saw Married Forever's fun threads, so I started one in her honor one weekend when she was struggling and attending an MB weekend....and it's still going 6 weeks later!

I'm amazed that JL has been here for nearly 8 years, you've been her for 5 and RM just registered a few months ago....and none of you have experienced a 'sucking chest wound' also known as an " A ". Yet, you've all been very helpful for those of us who have. And you and RM are in school now (while JL is a scientist who must have a tremendous amount of schooling under his belt).

What motivated you to post (and keep posting) on MB all these years, Mys, JL, and/or RM and others sans A?

Just wondering,

Ace <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Myshae, JL, and others sans As,

Even if the life of your marriage has not been "sucked away by an A" what motivated you to post (and keep posting) on MB all these years?

Thanks in advance for your efforts to keep helping others suffering from infidelity.

Ace

Nothing exciting for me. I liked it here. I spent most of my time on the EN's boards as I mentioned and started branching out when many of the ppl I used to post to left (moved on). (It's a slower board.)

I've posted threads there (EN's) about my situation and asking for help occasionally (problems getting needs met or meeting them).

These days, I read because it's a place to come between classes that is something other than technical stuff to read. Besides, it's good to remember not to get stuck in being right (DJ) perspective.

I occasionally have something to say and, if I have time, I post it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mys

Hi Mys,



Thanks for your contributions to these threads.



Yeah, I see it's good not to get stuck......reading here on MB would help that. Not sure about the DJ reference, tho.

Ace

The CS for the OC is under the jurisdiction of the state that the OC lives in, which fortunately is not ours, nor has it ever been within 80 miles. So It really won't change anything from that standpoint, however, the consequences of inappropriate behavior in the future would be extremely costly now to FWH.

Not really much comfort in that though, is there?

The future........one might say that there is comfort in the boundary represented by such a future "threat". As long as FWH is worthy of his "F" it's not a threat to you.

How extreme is "extremely costly"? What are the consequences of 'extremes'?

In my book Fled, you deserve extreme gold stars for your patience and endurance in your sitch.

(Loved your fishing story on the 30-60 Something fun thread, too.)

Ace

He would lose his family, me, and I doubt would be able to find a shack to live in here.

I do beleive he has earned his "F". But, we both know that it will still be a long road before this $hi! isn't thought about daily.

DS 18's GF has been sleeping with someone else for last 2 weeks. DS found out last night. Put a very blue mood on us. FWH is trying to help me. He knows that this sucks and puts thoughts back to my own D-day. I just know that DS saw a picture that will not leave his mind, it greatly changes his view of his HS sweetheart from the innocent to the ...?

The crap recurs, you hear it all the time, see it all the time, and then the waywards feel validation that everyone is doing it, can't be so bad if it's everywhere. I HATE infidelity. Make up your mind where you want to be, and if it's not where your committed then finish that relationship first before you move on to mess up someone else's life.

Fled