I have been lurking on MB off and on for some time now. I have posted a couple times, but have not got much response. I know this is a busy place, with lots of pain. I am not asking for everyone to respond - just looking for a sage <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> who has been there and has some wise words to share.

I am a BW who's H had his first affair 7 yrs ago. (We had been married 20 yrs at that time.) We never really recovered. 2 yrs ago he started a business with a female and it made me very uncomfortable and him very angry that I did not support him. Things have spiraled since. He just had his second affair the beginning of this year. I found out in March and asked him to leave...It was a response and not thought out. The affair has ended. He told me that both affairs werent about caring for the other women, but about having them say nice things about him. We have been apart now 5 months and are going nowhere. He is living with his mom and is happy that he is not experiencing the negativity any more. I want to work things out. I have been spending time looking at my own life and asking God to open my eyes. I have seen the damage of my angry outbursts and have asked for my H forgiveness. I have told him that I love him and want to work together to have a healthy marriage. I have been going to counseling for about 6 years. My H has come about 5 times with me and no longer wants to pursue help as he feels it hasn't worked and I have not changed. My counselor feels that my H has expressed no ownership or remorse for his A's. She also feels he is very avoidant of intimacy. He is the funny guy everyone likes, but noone knows. Our lack of intimacy was always painful for me, but I remained busy with our children and I homeschooled, etc. After the affair, I was not as OK about it and expressed that, but not always in a healthy or respectful way. He retreated even further. He remained pleasant...justified...and distant. Now, He doesnt know if he wants to work on the marriage, because he feels that we have tried and although he thinks I say the right things, he feels like I cant help myself and just cant treat him right. After the first affair, I found MB after reading His Needs Her Needs. I then read Surviving an Affair - that was about 5 Yrs ago. I have misplaced it and need to re-read it. My first response to the first affair was to embrace him and to forgive. I had just had a friend who had an affair and I knew her struggles and pain and realized that I had not been there for my husband...that was my immediate response...at the same time it was stuff, stuff, stuff. I think someone here on MB had talked about Plan P {pretend all was well}..that was me. The first couple months were good...we went to a marriage encounter, seemed to start moving in the right direction, but as the months went by, old habits resurfaced of not taking care of eachother. He felt like I needed to get over the affair and I felt blamed. I felt anger like I have never experienced before and also expressed it like I never had. I know...not good. Not that expressing my pain and anger was not good, but I didnt do it well and he felt very disrespected. I have never been comfortable with confrontation and my husband has always been a confronter. That was intimidating to me. I went from a stuffer to an exploder. I felt discarded and unloved..intense pain..anger..I would explode using words I had never used before..then I would repent, ask God to help me...cycle continued. At the same time, I am asking God to help me, reading books about marriage, forgiveness, dark night of the soul, basically crying out "God Help Me"..I'm broken and I know it - the next breath comes from You or I die. I asked my husband to read books with me to commit to counseling on a regular basis - I know we need help. He doesnt read or go. Whenever we talk about us, it ends up being about me. Yes, I know I can only change me. I truly get that now more than ever...I have said it for years, but it consistantly takes on deeper meanings. All this to say..I dont know where to go from here. My counselor feels I need to not pursue him. My H is not sure what he wants to do. He is considering divorce, but not running after it. No matter how kind I am to him.. he only sees what I am not. If we dont discuss us at all, things remain very pleasant. If you were watching us, you wouldnt know we were separated. The affairs are not discussed..if I bring us up at all, the issue returns to me and my mistreatment of him. He just turned fifty, life is too short. I think part of my anger and frustration has been that the conversations always end up about me. My column of wrongs is just sooo unforgiveable. I am aware of my brokeness...I am just not the only broken one in this relationship...but how to move on is my question....

sidebar: Just to mention, he smokes pot regularly. I didnt know this until about 5 years ago. When we first met he was quite the partier, but I thought he had stopped for the most part. Another part of his frustration with me is that he has not felt accepted for who he is.

SOOOO...right now, I remain waiting. I read, I cry, I pray. I just lost my mom, who I was very very close to the month before his second affair. I still hurt from that. I miss her encouragement and unconditional love. My kids are all out of the house, with my last one just leaving right before the affair. We have always been very close and this has been difficult for all. I am determined to trust God as I know He loves me and I am safe in His hands..but what a process to come to a place of peace.

Any words of wisdom out there in postland??

From Penalty Kill

Hi Tawny. Just as a side note I am a FWW, A over for many years, 2+ years into recovery, don't post too much these days. Sometimes I see a post from a BS that I think may be receptive to a FW point of view.

I'm sorry for your pain, including the loss of your mother. And it sounds like you have some empty nest syndrome going on as well. I'll be there in a couple of years.


As you noted, it sounds like you and your H never really dealt with the fallout from his first A. IMO, you forgave too quickly, and he used that as an excuse to brush it all under the rug, like it never happened. And thus you were left to deal with the distrust you felt toward him, and the hurt, etc. Your distrust and hurt have manifested themselves in your discomfort with his having a female business partner.


This rings true; it certainly was the case for me. Believe it or not, not dealing with his first A hurt him, too. Not only did it leave him open to behaviors that enabled him to start another A, it reinforced his habit of dealing with his pain by blotting it out and sweeping it under the rug instead of confronting it head-on. One way to blot it out is to have another A in order to feel good. He's probably smoking a lot of weed these days which helps with the blotting out. An A is like a much more powerful drug - one that boosts your self-esteem. Of course, when it wears off, you're left with lower self-esteem than you had to begin with.

IMO, you're ahead of the game since you realize that the A hurts both the BS and the WS. And while you may not have been there for your H in the ways that he needed, the decision to have an A was all his. What that means is give yourself a break for not being perfect! It sounds to me as though you've made great strides in improving yourself, whether or not your marriage recovers.


Stuffers often beoome exploders, BTW. For the first year or so of recovery, my H would explode at me, no provocation needed; he was just angry as he!!. I got a lot of flowers and jewelry that year which have always been his way of apologizing. Basically, you have to go through the anger stage unless you have superhuman control.

There's an anger stage for the WS too, as S. Harley explained to me. That occurs when the BS starts making the changes that the WS has asked for for years. Suddenly the FWS thinks, "Now, after all this time he/she is changing?! Well it just may be too late!". I went through that, but I didn't feel it was too late, I felt that it was just another irony in my life.

Your H may be going through that stage.

It's hard to be in recovery while in separate locations. You can't make your H come home. You have been working on you, which is all you can do as part of Plan A. You have probably been meeting some of his needs, and he may be getting his needs met elsewhere as well. I don't know.

I am unwilling to advise a poster to do a Plan B. I think that advice ought to come from S. Harley. What do you think about a session or two with him to help you clarify your thoughts?

PK

Just to add...when I said I wasnt asking for everyone to respond, that I was looking for a sage..:) I am looking for any wisdom or thoughts... just trying to say someone please help... without being a greedy guts knowing there are so many others who are looking for help too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

PK

Thankyou for replying. I have been thinking about a session with S Harley and was going to check into my insurance to see if they would cover partly.

My counselor has said similar things, that we never dealt with the first affair. She also said that we really cant start dealing with the issues that brought us to this place until there is ownership on my husbands side. I wanted so much for everything to just be OK and I believe in marriage and forgiveness and just didnt get the depth of my pain or the pain of anyone else involved. We smoothed everything over and just went on. My daughter who was 18 at the time, discovered his affair. She told her older brother and the two of them confronted him. On my 40th birthday, he told me. I encouraged everyone to forgive and we moved on. Or shall I say, we stuffed and moved on. My daughter, now 25, has not spoken to her dad since this last affair. He blames me, but she is very hurt and angry. I was so quick to move on, that healing wasn't able to happen in any of us. Although I encourage my daughter to talk to her dad, I also know this is not my issue to fix.

Right now I am just trying to remain kind to my H and not do things to make him angry...however, I have done some things, thinking he would like it, and it has just made him angry. Sometimes I feel damned if I do, damned if I dont.

I am not quite sure I get the plan A thing. I have tried to find some detailed writing about it, but havent as of yet. It probably was in the book about surviving an affair that I can't seem to find. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is he a drug addict?

And tawny, can you please break your posts up into paragraphs? It makes it much easier to read. This is part of the reason you haven't had many responses, I suspect.

Plan A is all about showing him what a great wife you could be, with no disrespectful judgements or angry outbursts. If there is anything that he complained about before the affairs, work on that.

You might also figure out what his top emotional needs are and try to start meeting those. It sounds like one of his is admiration. Of course it is easy for another woman (who doesn't live with him, have the day to day struggles with bills, chores, and raising children to worry about) to admire a man. She is just there for the fantasy life, and not the real life.

Can you make it on your own financially? That is one thing that is very important, because you need to be in the mental position of knowing that you will have a wonderful life, with or without him. That will help give you confidence.

Will he spend time with you doing fun things?

Thanks for the suggestion re: paragraphs. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I dont know that he is a drug addict. It is my understanding that he gets high pretty regularly...how regularly I dont know. It has always been something that he hides or does without my knowledge. I didnt know he was doing this until 5 yrs ago. Since I found out, I have noticed a couple times. He has his hiding places in his car and also different places in our house that our kids have found. He has been doing it for many years. Because I actually havent seen him high recently, it wouldn't be fair to say that I know he still does.

Can you tell when he is high? If you didn't know for years, wouldn't that mean that his natural state is high? What do you think?

Another question. If he were asked to give up pot, would he?

Believer:

At this point, I would struggle financially. I have always stayed at home. I am working part time right now but there is no insurance with the job. I would have to find other employment. I would get 1/2 his pension, but it would not be enough for me to live on.

I am a bit nervous about that and also sad. I have a new grandchild and one on the way. This is the time when I was looking forward to spending time with them. They live out of state and when I go to see them, it usually is for longer then just a weekend. What is scarey to me abut working full time, is not being able to get the time off to go see my family. I'm sure things will work out if this is the direction things go. We have always dreamed of spending time with our grandchildren together...

TG


Bottom line; don't buy it. Whatever you may be as a mate, you have zero responsibility for his choices. It ain't your fault, if my reading of your post is accurate. Do use paragraphs; much easier to read and understand.

Pot smoking; escape from reality, responsibility and consequences and leads to a failure for him to own his own stuff.

Might be a good idea for your adult daughter to make it clear to him that her own standard of morality is the reason she won't have anything to do with him and that has nothing to do with you. I don't normally recommend that the kids get involved but in some cases this can be a reality check like no other.

Larry

There are definately times when I can tell he is high, and I can smell it on him. I go to bed early and he stays up late. I think he does it then, or when he is with his friends. I am sad to say I just dont know.

Our kids have found his pot and we have had family meetings. He has said that he would stop and has not. He told me about a year ago that this is just his life and he was not going to quit. Whether he has or has not, I dont know. I dont think he thinks it is an issue either way.

Tawny,

I see that on two threads, two different people have quickly felt the need to ask the same question and I see that on your other thread you answered, more or less.

If your H is having an issue with drugs, recovery of your marriage will be nearly impossible since the one must be dealt with in order for the benefits of the other to be felt.

It is also quite likely that his affairs and his drug use are interrelated. That is not to say that one caused the other, but more likely, that the same root cause or causes brought about both.

Have you read Surviving An Affair? Also try Fall In Love Stay In Love, both are by Dr Harley.
Have you read all the basic concepts and understand them?

If you haven't done so yet, check out the Q&A columns regarding infidelity.>>> How To Survive <<<

Also read the first couple of posts on the Just Found Out forum. (Longhorn and WAT's QS Guide)
WAT
Longhorn

I posted some of the things I have gleaned over the past year or so on a thread you can find here>>> Musings... <<<

Be patient, especially around weekends. It can get pretty slow around here on Saturday and Sunday. Also learn to be patient because you didn't get into this mess over night and won't get out of it over night either. Unfortunately there are no magic bullets to be had in all of this.

Hang in there and don't give up.

Mark

From Penalty Kill

Tawny, you say that your H is living with his mother. Does she know that he has had A's? Are you at all close to her? Would you say that she is an enabler? I'm not really talking about letting him smoke pot in the house, I'm talking about letting him live at home rent-free and not forcing him to deal with his family situation.

As to the pot smoking, the only thing that you can do is make it clear to your H that you will not tolerate being around him when he is high. He shows up high, you show him the door.

I assume? that your H is paying the mortgage on your house. What about utilities? Are you aware of your finances, ie, what savings accounts, investments you have?
If your H has a business, you are also entitled to 1/4 of its appraised value at the time of separation. I'm not trying to push you in that direction; I'm just making you aware that you probably have more assets than you may think. In any event, I would get your financials in order.

Also, I agree with Larry regarding your daughter. If she is refusing to speak to him, she is an adult. You should not be her interpreter. If your H whines about why she is not speaking to him, tell him that's between him and her. Tell her the same thing. It's not up to you to be an intermediary, so don't go there.

PK

Tawny:

Drug use at age 50? Casual or otherwise, and him hiding it so well?

You two are so disconnected, it ain't funny.

You go to bed early, he stays up late and gets high.

Your a SAHM, and he works. (I know, new P-T job)

Kids are leaving home. So much less responsibility around the house for all concerned.

He needs to stop, even the casual drug use, or, and I use this as a compliment, reaserch BrambleRose and her posts, she is living with an active alcoholic, and has created a good life, and reasonable accomodation with her H about it.

But it took an awful amount of growth on her part to make that happen...

And her H hasn't moved much. (I am not sure of his total committment to movement, but it has been enough for BR, but I will stand corrected by her for his total commitment)

The point being, that your H is a doper, and dopers do not care about what happens when they are high, and its real easy to drift into affairs, and other bad behaviors, because, well, you are getting high anyway and you are already breaking the law.

Divorcing him will probably just result in him floating even futher into drugs.

And there is no support from him if that happens.

So, BR has posted on wildhorses74 thread in the past couple of days a listing of her travels in the past 7-8 years. Read those links, there is much there to help you understand what it is like living with a doper.

Until you learn to LIVE with his drug use, and accept it, and address it constuctively, then the rest of your M will always suffer.

LG

PK

His mom knows about this last affair. She told me it was a one night stand and didnt mean anything. Her thoughts are to just move on. She does not know about the other affair. I think she has expressed to him frustration - that she would like him to go home and fix his marriage. I have always been very close to his mom and this is very difficult for her.

He is now thinking about getting an apartment. We are going to talk soon about our finances. His check continues to go into our account and I pay all the bills from it. But if he moves to an apartment, it could not support two households. I am hoping that he will come home and maybe stay in another bedroom until any decision was made. I am thinking that would be easier to work plan A?

Thank you Mark,

I am reading the posts. I had gotten Surviving an Affair a number of years ago, but cant find it. I think I will be off to Barnes & Noble. Also will look for Private Lies. Any other reading recommended besides MB?

LG,

"You two are so disconnected, it ain't funny"

I giggled when I read that, but only because it is just not so funny...and really just crazy!

I am 48 and we have been together since I was 18. And with all of this dysfunction, we have raised 4 great kids...isnt that the grace of God?

I know the whole house has to come down and the foundation rebuilt. God help us.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tawny,

Look into "Love Must Be Tough" (Dobson) and "Boundaries" or "Boundaries In Marriage" (both Cloud and Townsend)

BTW, you don't always have to buy books if you have a library near by. I read SAA from there and it wasn't until they ran out of books for me to read that I started buying them (I got FIL/SIL this spring)

If you read the Bible I could also add Psalm 102:1-12, Psalm 40:1-5 and 11-17, Jeremiah 29:11, Psalm 5:1-4 and 8-12...

Mark

tawny, there probably won't be any ownership until he addresses and resolves his drug addiction and I suspect he is addicted. He ACTS like a teenager, moving home with him's mommy, which is a sign of an addict. They never grow up.

As long as he is anesthesized, he won't experience the normal feelings that a sober person would, making recovery impossible. He does not have the ability to love and actively participate in a mutually giving relationship. As an addict, he probably only views you as a RESOURCE, and nothing more. He can't learn from his mistakes because he lives in a drug induced fog.

Dope addicts and drunks love only one thing and one thing only: DRUGS. They don't love people. They are the epitomy of pure selfishness because the drug keep thems tied to themselves. They are self will run riot.

Plan A is a DISASTER with an addict because they do not react as would a normal person since they do not feel love. Instead, they use as an opportunity to exploit the BS and use them more. So, don't use Plan A. Instead, go to Alanon and prepare to go to Plan B. In Plan B, you would make a condition of return, his complete and total sobriety along with a plan of recovery.

Once he has his drug addiction under wraps, he will have a mind with normal emotions that could participate in a real relationship. Until that happens, he is too emotionally crippled to be in a grown up relationship.

I would also suggest that you tell his mommy that he has had another affair and smokes dope. He is probably bringing dope into her house. If it were me, I would call the cops on him. A few nights in jail would do him wonders!