Is there a crack in the dam?

"She also suggested that we 'date' each other"

How did that statement get to be said? The how will give clues on how to read WW intent. I'll go with good sign for now.

"She doesn't want to go to counseling together, as that might suggest that we "are together", but she wants to go, and wants to go to the same one."

That one's a tuff call. To let you down easy or move forward slow, at her desired pace.

"mother's day card I sent her was still displayed on her table, 2 weeks after the day
it seems that things might be looking up"

Like I'm an expert on picking up signs. The chances to me are good that it was left as a subtle sign.

I read some of your posts to refresh myself. Such as the first and 4/20 9:40 post, 2/19 9:33 post.

I think your WW had a PA. Why would an OM hang out at a woman's hotel room?

WW may want to believe that because she can claim as Clinton that she did not have an affair because there was no penetration. This is best left for the councilor to handle.

I do not think it wise to push anything because WW has just started clearing out the fog. She is not fog free. WW still believes some of her justifications for her affair. This is why your approach to go slow now is the smart move.

The posts of 2/19 and 4/20 to me shows that your WW is testing the waters right now. Willing to test but nothing more for now.

One of WW's justifications was that you are not attractive to her. What have you done to improve you image. Have you lost weight, toned up. Clean up that face? Shave off that beard, goatee, mustache? Come home from work shower put on nice causal clothes?

JL and Road.... Thanks for responding...I've been away for awhile, but it's nice to know you guys are still around!

I agree, taking it slow is the only way to go, but with that, I have a few questions. I guess I'm going back to Plan A from Plan Apathetic, and how best do I deal with her (and my) changing moods? Basically, do I keep up the "cheerful, happy, bantering back and forth" type of persona, or do I more mirror what she's feeling?

As for her motivation why, I can only guess...I went to see the counsellor the night before last, (by myself) and it was spent filling her in on the details of the past year. WS has called her to set up her own appt, but hasn't made one yet. I did ask her if she's a marriage counsellor or a divorce counsellor, and she did say that she tries to find the strenghts in a couple, that it's known what the costs and damage of separation and divorce cause. She's familiar with MB and the Harleys.... She didn't say that she is a 'follower' of the style, but she seems to agree with the basic idea that it's worth trying to save.

All this is very new to me.... I had just accepted the fact that I was going on with my life, and now I'm having to see if I can make room for her. I hope we can both make room for each other.

Thanks again,
Ron

As for making myself more attractive, I'm fairly certain that the physical side of me wssn't as much of an issue as the psychological aspect. I had been mildly depressed before this all started.....no, I'm not majorly depressed now, but I should be!

Basically it was caused by kids, work, chronic plantar fascitis, and a nagging lack of self confidence....

I'd say that that's all pretty much taken care of, certainly it's not nearly as big a deal as it was before. All the issues are still there, but I think I've got back my old resilience, and they don't affect me as much...That, or I've beaten the issues down. Anyway, she has told the babysitter, (who tells me!), that she's mentioned going slow, seeing where things lead, actions speak louder than words, all of that. We will see...

Has anyone ever been in a situation where there WS has tried to stimulate contact with the intention of "it's good for the kids to see us together"? I don't know if this is my situation here, it's just a thought that came to my mind. WS has been encouraging contact between us when daughter is present..... She just asked if she could come over tomorrow night to play a board game with Stephanie, just the three of us.

So far, (and I know it's really early, too soon to tell for sure) she's encouraging this sort of thing, soccer, riding, and games with our little girl, but there's no indication at all of anything progressing between the two of us.. She keeps her distance. Socially and all of that is ok, but she's definitely distant in a physical sense. Once again, it's early, too early to tell, I was just wondering if anyone has had this type of situation present itself. A number of trips to the counsellor will no doubt reveal her intentions.

My thinking is that if it's not important to stay together for the sake of the kids, it's not worth the effort and aggravation to "be together" for the sake of the kids.

Your thoughts and experiences are very welcome!
ron

I'm leaving tomorrow for a bit of a vacation....heading down to Boston, then up to Halifax before heading home... Man, I am looking forward to this like you wouldn't believe....

Any chance someone can toss me a bone before I leave?
Ron

"Any chance someone can toss me a bone before I leave?"

Don't bite hard you may chip a tooth.
Ease into the bone and the relationship with your wife.

Many spouse's have used the children to reconnect with their spouse. It could be nothing more than to provide co parenting experiences for your child.

All you can do is show your WW that she can have fun with you still. Quitely show her that you have improved as a person. That you are a guy she can be married to. Ty to meet her needs. That will make her feel wanted.

I sense that you want to recover. So I understand your impatience. Time can not be rushed.

I have not tried to give you false hope or discourage you. The tea leaves say it's 51% in your favor. But with such a small lead it is to close to guarantee or predict victory.

In crunch time it is best to not show panic.

Getting away for a few days sounds like an awesome idea. All of this stuff is so draining.

Hope your self confidence is increasing. You have been a good man, a good father, and have been fighting for your marriage. You deserve to feel good about yourself.

Now, just don't roll over and take her back without conditions. I suggest dateing for awhile if you are certain the OM is out of the picture. I would insist on that, no matter if she says he is only a friend.

The fact that she is suddenly interested in playing a board game with Stephanie and you is very promising. I would enjoy your time together and not talk relationship. If she later insists on talking about being "friends", you can let her know that she is your wife and you don't need her as a friend.

The counseling would be good to resolve the problems with you, her and the kids. I raised 6 step-kids, and it was NOT easy. Show your wife that you are interested in working things out. But also insist that there can be no third party in your marriage.

I'm very hopeful that things are going to work out for you. At any rate, you will have the peace of mind of knowing that you fought your best fight. You deserve someone who will value and love you.

Hi Ron,

This is great news. I know it's been a while, but when I saw this, it made my day.

all the best.

Hey Ron! Somehow missed your update.

I think that could be good news, just go in with your eyes wide open.

I'm back!

Hearing from you, Tyk, and my other old regulars is great. Thanks for your support. There isn't a lot to add since the last time I posted, other than I spoke with WS on the phone while I was away. Called her in the middle of Nova Scotia, under the guise of speaking with DD.

She mentioned, without any prompting from me, that she hadn't spoken with the counsellor yet, as they hadn't been able to connect. Telephone tag, if you will. The call was short, (my doing, really, under the guise of poor cell phone reception, but I sent her an email to her work that evening....basically, lost signal, give Steph a hug....she replied the next morning...very brief...'have a good time, and I will'.

I'm approaching this with a huge amount of caution, not knowing what her motivation is yet, or where she wants this to go, makes me keep this at arms length.....but, I keep having to stop myself from getting carried away with where I want it to go!

If she indeed is interested in renewing things between the two of us, my biggest fear is.... it's been years since I've dated. Not only am I trying to "win over" a woman, I'm trying to "win over" a woman who knows all my scabs and warts..... What's the best way to approach that? Something from our success stories would be HUGELY appreciated!

That's about it for the moment,
Ron

And Believer, and TMTS... Self confidence has definitely taken a beating, but i'm definitely on the upswing. Have done as much as I possibly can for me, kids, everything. We didn't get to the board game, but I may ask her if she wants to do that tomorrow night. I'm definitely not interested or inclined to be a door mat.... She has to earn my trust and affection as much as I do for her... And I will not put up with being "friends" without some goal in mind.... That is, getting back together.

I'm hopeful, but with a healthy amount of skepticism... BTW, on the way back from Nova Scotia, I stopped off at my sister in law's house (WW's sister). I called ahead the day before, and she said there would be a big surprise for me. I got there, and my parents in law and grandmother in law came by to see me. It was a nice surprise!

Thanks again for everything,
Ron

Well, I see what you're saying, but I think you're thinking about it backwards. IF she's wanting to reconcile (which is a big IF right now), then she's wanting to reconcile despite all your flaws, and she knows them better than anyone. If that's the case, she's left and realized that the grass isn't all that green on the other side.

I think you might be better served to take the position that SHE is going to have to win YOU back, and overcome some pretty serious flaws of her own to do so.

Tyk, you have taken the words right out of my mouth.....I've long thought that she should be winning me back.. I just want to be providing "winning conditions" for whatever might happen!

Here's something for you to help me out with... Since she's been talking about 'dating' and counselling, the time we've spent has been good, but as i mentioned before, very 'hands off'. no touching at all. It makes me think she's not wanting to give me any kind of 'ideas'.

So, when we went out on our 'date' the week before last, I bought her a shirt, (it was cheap, i.e. good sale! $10.00 that she said she wanted, but didn't have the cash for). I met her today when DD was at her riding lesson, and lo, and behold.... WS is wearing the shirt! It looked pretty good on her, too.

She hasn't been to see the counsellor yet, it seems like the two of them aren't able to hook up.. She is quick to tell me the status of that.

I just keep reminding myself that going slow is the only way to deal with this. It's easy to become discouraged when things don't go where or as fast as I would like.....patience is a virtue!

Thanks agin everyone,
Ron

Hang in there Ron. She fell in love with something about you. Try to show her that guy again. And don't be worried about her showing very little enthusiasm. That is common, and should come later.

Thank you, believer.. Hanging in is what I'm finding to be really difficult now, to be honest. She called up today, and asked if she could come over for a visit this evening, and I said sure...why not make it supper? So she did, it was just the three of us, we played with DD, and had a really good time, I thought.

Once again, though she was completely 'no-contact', and I really wasn't getting any feelings that she was inclined to want/initiate/receive any. I know that that is to be expected, and is typical... (i hope!). But this behaviour keeps bringing up my big question in all of this; What's her motivation? Why is she doing this? Is she doing this to try and be 'friends', or to 'co-parent' our daughter? Or, is she truly interested in seeing if there is a chance for us.

I'll go to the ends of the earth to save my marriage, but i'll drop her like a poisonous snake if i find that she's doing this for 'friendship'. No doubt countless others have gone through exactly this same situation, I really would like some clarity!
To be honest, I don't really think she knows what she wants right now.. I'll have to keep on biting my tongue, and biding my time.

She did finally get an appointment with the counsellor, they are seeing each other on the 16th, and we are going to go out on a 'date' this wednesday. Have a sitter lined up, and everything. Haven't decided on what to do yet though....Any suggestions, anyone?

Thanks for listening, I'll stop now, before the rambling sets in!

Ron

If the affair is over, she is behaving normally. She won't want much touching, contact with you until she is through withdrawal. Hold your horses and take your time. Show her what she fell in love with about you.

Ron, I know exactly what you are going through - I experienced it myself. As long as there is no contact, time is your ally not your enemy. It will be a while before the fog clears. Meanwhile, work on your Plan A. NO LBs!

When I was where you are now, my IC gave me some good advice and I still find it pertinent today: Play it Cool. Do not make demands, do not have any expectations. Show interest but do not smother. Be sensitive to her boundaries - she will let you know when touching is appropriate. Stay upbeat and positive. Reek confidence; women do not like desperate men.

Yes, all of this is easier said than done but you can do it. You have come this far. There are some real positive signs here so try and stay optimistic. Slow and steady wins the race.

*****edit*****

I'll start this latest off by saying...."I am just a complete f#$##$$ knucklehead"

Went out with WS tonight for supper....had sushi, went and did some shopping for DD. Had a good time, good conversattion, usual stuff.. Stopped off at Tims for a coffee, and took it back to her place. The conversation continued, she was telling me about the 'maharaji' that she has been following, "DVD series about obtaining keys to knowledge:

The talk went towards ARRRGH...... Relationship. Even then, it was ok, even though she was going on how it might take years to get back to where she might want to be with me. She admitted that I'm good company, she likes to be with me, never has hated me. Wants us to get along reallly well for DD's sake. Got back to counsellor helping her to get through the issues bothering her, but she repeated that she's way, way, way too far apart to even consider thinking about being with me.


Anyway....the big knucklehead moment comes....and I tell her how I feel...... That I want to be with her, but that I don't 'need' to be with her. That it's possible to work things out....the usual drivel..... And then, the piece de resistance, I am about to leave, and I go forward to give her a hug....a chaste hug...no 'extras', but of course, it's rejected..... Jeez Louise, you'd think I'd know better! I think I may have pulled off a half decent recovery, just said it was a 'non-committal hug with no extras or expectations"

Throw me your 2x4's, I'll break them over my granite head.

As I left, she said I looked like she had given me a left hook, that I looked 'down'. I just said I was tired, (which I was, and had already been talked about).

Other than really good sushi, it was a fairly disastrous night I would say!

Oh, well, chalk it up to still caring about her. The important thing is you are spending time with her, having a good time, and talking. She's lucky you're even considering taking her back, and she's telling you how far apart the two of you are. Par for the course.

You're a good man, and will do just fine.