What to do when NC is broken repeatedly?

We all agree that NC for lifetime is essential for the rebuilding of the M after betrayal. Not every WS lives up their part of this. I believe I have observed a trend in the advice given here in the MB forums to BS's struggling with this situation.
I will here give a summery from some of the advice given:

# of new contacts and the advice given by some posters to struggling BS's

• 1 new contact: Let the WS write a new NC letter.
• 2 new contacts: Let the WS write a new NC letter.
• 3 new contacts: Let the WS write a new NC letter.
• 4 new contacts: Let the WS write a new NC letter, handwritten this time.
• 5 new contacts: Same as above.
• 6 new contacts: Same as above.
• 7-15 new contacts: Same as above.
• 16-50 new contacts: Now use e-mail and send one copy of the last NC letter each day. You know there IS contact, so just send it. And don't bother the WS to do it. What you do yourself you know is well done. Apart from this do noting different from what you have been doing so far.
• 51-500 new contacts: Same as above, but twice a day, later four times a day. This takes much of your time of cource. But you know that the time spent is an investment in a good marriage. Recovering a marriage is hard work.
• >500 new contacts: ??????????????
  

My problem with this advice is that I somehow remember a saying about expecting a different outcome when you keep doing the same action. Perhaps someone can help me with that one.

Why is it that some people believe plan A = endless meekness on the part of the BS?

Hi Frank,

U r right..... when one says one thing and doesn't back it up, the WS sees it as an opportunity to use that to enable the A and on it goes.

Good reminder. Now please help us see what t/d when NC is broken.

You know me, I had to learn the hard way, then RB and plan B is what I had t/d to reinforce my stance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Btw, how are you doing?

Aloha,
L.

First challenge is to get WS to even admit NC is needed.
The public adultery thread is interesting aspect of NC advice too.
Even after OM was moved by military to different post in part due to the situation it was all my fault.
Short of packing it in and getting the divorce what are you to do??

Got to get to work.

If NC is repeatedly broken, the correct answer is Plan B, not endless NC letters. I don't know where you have seen this, Frank, but if you see someone giving that advice, you should just correct them.

Thanks orchid!

I am doing fine. We have had a very fine holiday and I am now in the process re-tuning myself for work. My productivity is still laggering <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
In the romance department the summer was very nice. Now wife is very busy with all the preparations with two kids leaving for military and school. This is an old pattern. She is the most happy with all her family around her and caring for them (us). While I need the reasurance that I am special. I suppose I am needy, at least I must be seen! And I feel that the value is reduced if I have to ask for it. Anyway, I will at least see to that SHE is seen!
God Bless!


Mel!

I agree. That is the way to do it. I fight a mild MB-addiction. I don't wisit MB as often as I did. And when I sit down there is more reading to do to catch up with how people are doing. So there is much less posting from me now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I would think that if no contact is broken more than just a time or two then it's definitely time to go to Plan B!

Unfortunately, a WS who repeatedly breaks no contact, after promising not to, may also be the sort of WS who will promise they are ready for reconciliation and recommittment to the marriage in order to get the BS to end Plan B...

In my situation, WS would say or do anything required to get me back but would fail to follow through on promise of no contact with OW. So he would end up back with her. Sometimes he used my finding out about contact ('spying' on him) or my reaction to his contact (no matter how I responded) as his excuse to leave me and go back to her.

He would even say the REASON he contacted her again was because he didn't like my reaction to him contacting her, so I 'drove him back' to her?!? Actually this was one of his favorite tactics: to change the focus from whatever he's done to my response to it.

Basically, it came down to him feeling entitled to continue contact (and more) with her. He was feeling very angry, resentful, trapped by my requiring no contact with OW in order for him to continue having anything to do with me.
He pretty much believed he was entitled to keep me and whatever OW du jour in his life. The fact that he had to promise certain things in order to keep me in his life was just viewed as 'manipulative' and 'controlling'. He didn't feel guilty about breaking promises to me because I 'made' him make those promises or else he couldn't see me... And of course whatever of myself I did give to him was never appreciated because he felt entitled to me in the first place.

As mentioned by another poster, most of what is required for a marriage to stay healthy, let alone to recover from the betrayal of adultery, is not understood by society in general. A spouse who wants accountability, is 'snoopy' or 'controlling'; a spouse who doesn't approve of going out to lunch with coworkers of the opposite sex is 'jealous'; a betrayed spouse who expects there be no contact between the wayward spouse and the other person has 'trust issues'...

I once read a list of about 30 activities that set the stage for adultery. Most of the things on the list are 'harmless' sounding things people do with coworkers of the opposite sex every day. But it amounts to a sort of checklist of things to do all the way down to adultery. "We didn't plan it - one thing led to another"

IMHO it might take a massive public education campaign to counter the massive public ignorance regarding this.

I am another one who doesn't know what to do. My WH is home living with me, because I can't pay the bills by myself. He is in the house & sleeping in our bed. NC was broken again yesterday. My asking him to have NC with OW only results in him telling me he will never tell me or admit to contact again because of all the s**t he gets about it. I was not angry, demanding or argumentative about it. Just talked to him about it without getting angry. I did tell him that he just can't seem to keep his word. Always after NC is broken by him or her, or he hears something about how badly she is doing & feeling, he starts worrying about her, usually calls to see how she is doing, & it starts all over again. His attitude & actions toward me change & I can tell he is thinking about her & doesn't want to be here with me. He actually admits to me every time that he needs to get over wanting to see & talk to her.

How do I continue Plan A with him there? I have promised to not ask him to leave again or kick him out of the house. At this point Plan B is not an option, I don't think. How do I proceed with him living there (& he will stay there until he gets that other job or the house is sold & we divorce) knowing he won't keep his word about NC? Do I just not talk to him at home? Any suggestions from BTDT members???

NC is a concept that is desired,initiated and carried out by a truly remorseful WS.

A BS that demands, bullies, extorts or carries on in any action other than making the WS aware of the concept, will fail 100% of the time.

Cymanca,

I was trying not to do any of the things you mentioned. I did tell him that NC has to be established before we can start to put our M back together. He has read copies of posts here telling him that he must do NC. I tried (& hope I succeeded) to keep a demanding tone out of my voice. I have asked him to stop calling her. He says it's because he worries about her. I wish he worried about me that much. Only I haven't threatened to kill myself over him. Maybe I should (just kidding)!

If you have suggestions on how to get this concept over to him in the right way, I would appreciate the help. Please let me know if I'm doing things the wrong way or misunderstand suggestions here that are the right way.

He keeps telling me he wants NC from or with her. He keeps telling me he needs to get over wanting her. But yet, he keeps breaking NC every time he starts it.

I say the rule should be

1 new contact: take a hike.

Lostafter,

I don't know how to change anyone, least of all a WS. I do know how to change me. The scenario as described by patriot was exactly what happened in my situation except that I was the one that took a hike. I never returned to our marital home. Not once.

I can live with my actions. Make sure that you can live with yours.

I've heard Harley say something that makes a lot of sense to me. With each new contact, there is proof that the prior agreement for extraordinary precautions to not have contact has been inadequate, so you need to add precautions. With each new break in contact, you up the ante in extraordinary precautions. For example, moving from the area. The problem in this day of cell phones and ease of hiding email accounts is that the only real way NC is kept is if that is what the WS wants. If a WS balks at adding precautions, what's the point in doing anything? Then it seems to me to be a take a hike time.
Cherished

Cymanca, I hear you. And at this point in time, I know in my heart that I could not live with leaving & filing for divorce. I still love him. I want to believe what everyone around us is telling me, that he does love me & he will want me back. He hasn't missed me enough or been away enough to know that yet & she isn't out of the picture. I will keep your good advice in mind.



Cherished, the thing is he doesn't balk, he does things to prevent contact (such as smashing his company phone with a hammer & telling co-workers he doesn't want to hear anything about her). But someone will say something about her where he can't help but overhear (such as she is having a hard time) & he starts worrying about her & breaks NC. He just can't seem to stick to anything long enough to let himself get over her.

Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that this last breaking of NC means he has made a choice & is only using me for a place to live & because I'm convenient & comfortable. He even tells me some days he must love me because he can't let me go. That's on the days he wants to work things out with me. On the days he don't, it's I don't think I love you or want to love you again.

I'm as confused as a WS, living in my own fog of hurt & trying to see the truth through the dimness.

I can live with my actions. Make sure that you can live with yours.

I think Cymanca has it here, lostafter. You must make boundaries for YOU, not AGAINST anybody. If NC is a boundary of yours, how will you enforce it? You can only control what you do.

I think Plan B is the way to go. Why can't you go to Plan B, WITH a legal separation agreement?

"A BS that demands, bullies, extorts or carries on in any action other than making the WS aware of the concept, will fail 100% of the time."

Requiring that a WS end all contact with the OP in order to resume a relationship with the BS is not an example of bullying or extortion. More than awareness of the concept is required: the BS needs to set boundaries. The WS can choose to either accept those boundaries in order to continue a relationship with the BS or to reject those boundaries in order to continue a relationship woth the OP.

If the WS pretends to understand or agree with the boundaries, while secretly opposing and planning to ignore the boundaries, it is not because the BS used 'bullying' or 'extortion'. It's because the WS was being dishonest, making promises they never intended to keep in order to get what they WANT but are NOT entitled to!

In a civilized society, simply wanting or feeling entitled to something is not a valid excuse to take it dishonestly.

While I agree that you can't control anyone besides yourself, the flip side of that is the BS certainly has every right to decide what kind of relationship they are in. If they only want to be involved with a person of integrity, a person who is not involved with an OP, that is certainly the BS's choice! Stating that expectation is not manipulative, it does not deny the WS the freedom to choose between the BS and the OP. The WS still has the choice of being such a person of integrity (and therefore being an acceptable mate for the BS) or not (and therefore not being an acceptable mate for the BS). The BS has every right to set standards for the type of relationship they choose to be in!

The WS shouldn't get away with using bullying or extortion (or accusations of 'bullying' or 'extortion') in order to demand continued acccess to BOTH the OP and the BS. The WS has to make a choice between their adultery partner and their betrayed spouse. THAT is a fact many WS's need to face like it or not.

The BS is in no way obligated, morally or legally to continue having a relationship with the WS. There is a definite sense of entitlement amongst adulterers: they feel they can have both the OP and their betrayed spouse. The BS setting boundaries, in order to prevent the WS from making unreasonable demands of the BS, is not an example of extortion. If the WS chooses to lie to the BS, pretending to agree to no contact in order to continue or reestablish contact with the BS, it is NOT because the BS 'made' (or 'extorted') them into that agreement. The responsibility of fully understanding and fully endorsing what they are promising falls firmly with the person making the promise.

mere,

I agree with that totally. And I will say this, he does try for a few days until someone tells him something about her. Since she has threatened suicide, he feels responsible & doesn't want that on his head. When he is trying, things seem to be looking up. When he hears something about her or talks to her, he changes like Jekyll & Hyde, back to I don't know what I want, I don't know if I love you or want to love you anymore, etc. I know it's fog babble.

He tells me he came home because he found out I was struggling paying the bills & he didn't want to lose everything. He tells me he can't let me go. That one day he wants it to work & one day he doesn't. More fog babble, I know. I pray every day that he gets this job in another town. I can Plan B then because he will be gone. I can't Plan B while he is still in the house. I won't ask him to move out anymore because that is defeating the purpose. Maybe I should have him sleep on the couch. He told me last night he wanted to get that job to be away from both of us but what if he asks her to come visit? I asked him what if he does. Can you say you will ask her to visit? No but he can't say he won't either. So what if you want me to visit? I truly believe that one month of being truly apart, with NC between us was not long enough for him to see if he really missed me & wanted me back.

Silent,

I can't go with Plan B because he is back living at home & refuses to leave. If this job comes up & he moves, I can Plan B for at least 6 months.

I believe I am interpreting Harley correctly: he needs to get away from anyone who might say something about her.
Cherished

Yepper Cherished. But so hard for him to do when her best friend still works there with him. That's why we are both hoping he will get this new job. It's 3 hours away & he swears that if he gets it, he will not even talk to me for the 6 month probation period. I said "Good, I want it to be that way."

I know it was probably the wrong thing to do but I asked him today, "you say you worry about her because she is going through a hard time. What about the hard time I'm going through right now, not knowing one day to the next if you want & love me or not. One minute you act like yes & the next no. You don't have the b***s to tell her the truth or the truth you have told me about her. I can't be second choice forever. If your love for me is truly gone, you would be gone also." I was doing so much better when he was gone. He has been telling me constantly ever since he came home, that he doesn't love her & doesn't want to be with her. He knows he could go live with her & won't because he says he doesn't want to. Yeah, what I said before was probably a huge LB, but I feel I don't matter when I tell him that he has to have NC with her at all for anything to even begin to get better. I don't demand or bully, just state the facts as they are, & that I won't accept anything less. Someone told me about their alternate Plan A while living with their WS. I think I may try to do that since he won't leave again.

But you can get a legal seperation. Its not like you don't have options, you do. You are not an endentured servant.