I am just under 3yrs since confessing everything to DH.

To me it seems like we are just surviving, not recovering. We still live together but we are not close.

I asked him the other day if he believes i think he is special. he very quickly said no. i asked him if he thinks i am special. he said yes. i asked "do you think i believe that" he said probably not. i said i believe that is pretty much the core of the problem. that is why i am not happy with our marriage. and that i would really like to work with him on it. i asked him would he like to feel and believe he is special to me, does he need that in his life? he said yes.

since then i have felt so sad. i mean it's one thing for the taker side of me to feel rejection and anger when DH does not seem to care about me. but that is nothing compared to how devestated my giver side if feeling right now.

this morning i asked him... given the past, is there anything i can do that would ever convince him that i think he is special, because i do, that is why i am still with him.

anyone have any suggestions?

i guess i missed posting my actual question.

for those BH whose marriages are recovered. Do you feel special now? what did your wife do that helped you feel that way again?

i say again because i assume you must of felt that way before too.

and now i wonder if my DH ever did...

for those BHs whose marriages are not yet recovered. do you have ideas as to what actions by your wife would help you feel special again.

there's that word again.

anyone else marry someone even though they didn't think or feel that the person they were marrying felt they were special?

Hi FL

I dunno which category of BHs I am in, but I'll offer a comment from my own experience in case it helps you at all.

The default position in my life is one of "not feeling special to Squid", but trying not to NEED that external validation. I cannot allow my self worth to be dependent on someone else's opinion of me.

However from time to time squid works to make me feel special to her. Those are very nice times, but are transient.

Oddly enough I have asked Squid those questions too - she feels special when I invest hugely in meeting her ENs, but feels insecure when I back off. Any criticism from either one of us sends the other spiralling out of "specialness" and into insecurity.

Trouble is I am all out of almost one-sided superinvestment in Squid and our marriage.

Surprisingly enough, our M is currently "better" than it was in ten years pre-A. Meaning operationally, and regarding communication. But I'd hoped for sustainably more when I fought the dragon them years ago, than sporadic flashes of specialness in a sea of "okayness".

What is it that makes me feel special ? When squid invests and keeps investing regardless of my reaction.
She has always and still does give up thinking " screw YOU then !" if she invests in me and do not respond enthusiastically at that time. This makes me feel like she does the investment in me for the response it gets not altruistically.

When she does nice stuff for me, just because she wanted to do nice stuff for me, and persists in that regardless of my initial reception is when I feel the warm glow of "specialness".

So does Squid BTW. But 3 years of that has started to leave me feeling a bit pathetic.

Thats what I can offer from my slightly down-curve on the recovery rollercoaster. I hope that may have been some help to you.

Hey FLT2H,

I don’t think that there’s any set answer and you’ll have to get input from your H as to what HE needs in order to feel special.

For me, the most hurtful part of all of Mrs. RIF’s multiple A’s was the fact that she chose someone else, several times over, instead of me. I had (and to be honest, sometimes still do) a sever lack of confidence in my “male sexuality” after her A’s. I was constantly comparing myself with all of the OM… I felt that I didn’t “measure up” to the OM… I felt that I wasn’t as “good” as the OM… I just felt lacking. For a man, that is a horrible feeling. And to tell you the truth, that was one of the main “reasons” that I seriously considered suicide after I found out about Mrs. RIF’s “first” A.

For those of you that don’t know my story, Mrs. RIF had multiple A’s during our first three years of M. I found out about one A and I suspected another A. Mrs. RIF denied the suspected A. We never went to MC or dealt with the one A or the suspected A… we just “acted like it never happened”. 10 years later, the guilt got to Mrs. RIF and she confessed to the suspected A and to six additional A’s (all ONS-A’s).

Here are some things that Mrs. RIF does for me that make me feel special:

• She tells me that she loves me.
• She tells me that I’m sexy to HER.
• She tells me that she wants me sexually.
• She flirts with me.
• She initiates SF with me (ahem, when I’m home – it’s kindof hard to do when you’re 7,000 miles apart! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)
• She holds my hand when we’re in public.

For me, I need these constant reminders that she WANTS me now, and not all of those other men. I still crave the attention from Mrs. RIF because deep, deep, down, there’s always a little voice whispering that “I’m not as good…” that I “don’t measure up”…

As time goes by, those voices aren’t as loud, and they aren’t as frequent. For me, I know that Mrs. RIF loves me and wants me… the more time that she continues these type of actions, the less and less I hear those voices and have those negative feelings.

Semper Fi,

RIF

Hi Bob,

thanks for the post. I agree. In no way should your SELF worth be tied to someone else's opinion.

ok, so i struggle with myself at times. i beat myself up for the many things i have done wrong but ya know what? i'm am not junk. i am very smart and very caring. i have flaws and scars that keep me from being extremely healthy at times but i have a good heart.

so that is my view of myself.

that does not change the fact that i want to be in a relationship where i am contributing to the happiness of my husband.

it's not able self-worth it's about wife-worth.

not sure what you meant by "but 3 yrs of that has started to leave me feeling a bit pathetic".

your comments about how you feel special when you see squid continuing her efforts regardless of your reactions is thought provoking. i can be guilty of giving up too.

and it's interesting to hear you say, she gives up thinking "screw YOU then!"

does she say that to you or is that your judgement?

maybe she is thinking, ok, that obviously is not what he wants/needs.

it's so frustrating not knowing what would help. and the only way i can tell if something helps is based on his response. kwim?

Well, right now it would help if my WW could just admit she had an A and was sorry she did so...

The list of items that RIF mentioned I would consider heaven if I could get! But that's probably because we both (as do most men) put SF high on our ENs list. Has your BH filled out the ENs questionnaire? What things has he marked as making him "Very happy"? Try and go above and beyond to meet or exceed the top few.

but 3 yrs of that has started to leave me feeling a bit pathetic

I ran a good plan A for three years with few drops in intensity. Squid eats that up but does not reciprocate.

It feels desperate from me to be so attentive , with little reciprocity and the effort has exhausted me.

I'm taking a breather.

That's all I mean.

RIF, thanks for sharing.

you are right. i need his input.

there is one thing he has told me would be meaningful and that is to lose weight. i'm about 30lbs over weight. i try and i fail over and over.

until i do that, how can i expect anything else to matter.

i do tell him i love him, he says the same to me. usually it happens when we are saying good bye on the phone or one of us is leaving the house.

SF has changed so much in my eyes. It's like it is finally what it was supposed to have been all along.

and so i was initiating SF a lot, probably about 95% of the time. because I wanted to (SF became very high on my EN list) and because he needed me to be the one doing the initiating.

for a long time, i didn't mind. not even when it was one way. i loved giving myself to him, giving him pleasue.

but then it started getting harder and harder on me cuz it didnt seem like he was seeing it or accepting it as a gift. and because what he gave back didn't feel like a gift but a duty.

But now it's all messed up again. So i just stopped initiating. and now I have to wait a good 3-4 weeks before he finally wants it enough to initiate it himself. but that feels even more impersonal. it seems like it is all about when he needs the phsically release. and that is making it worse. last couple of times i cried afterwards. that's not good for either of us. now i just as soon never do it again. which of course is not good either.

i hold his hand in public, like when we are walking the dog. i'm not sure if he likes it or not. i don't think he dislikes it. but i don't think it really does anything for him either.

ugh!! this post is full of negativity!!! no wonder i feel so bad.

Bob, ok, i totally relate. and even though i'm on the opposite side of the equation, that is how i feel about my efforts the past 3 yrs now too. exhasted.

BHHFSGuy, we have never filled out the questionaire. i've tried a few times. i've given them to him but they are still in his deak, unwritten on.

i've tried to guess at his answers. based on what is going on, i don't think i'm even close to right.

Hey FLT2H,

If I remember correctly, your H doesn’t want to go to MC… Have you asked him lately if he’d consider going with you?

I’m also a bit curious about some of what you posted… you said that things were finally “what it was supposed to be all along”, and then something changed…

I don’t want to delve too deeply, but did it change for you, or for your H? If it changed for your H, did you talk with him about it?

One of the things that Mrs. RIF and I learned through MC was how to communicate with each other and share our feelings with each other without putting each other on the defensive.

If the change was in how you were/are feeling, have you thought about talking with an IC to see why that might be?

I know that you can’t force your H to go to MC, but if SF was “where it was supposed to be”, and then something changed, try to find out what changed and see if you can work on that.

For me, I know that Mrs. RIF has had some issues with guilt and forgiveness… she knows that I’ve forgiven her, but I still think that she has some issues with forgiving herself. I know it’s hard for her, and I try to reassure her every chance that I can, that I don’t define her by her past actions… and that I love her and that I have forgiven her.

I wasn't able to get to this point by myself... It took lots of work with our MC and our pastor to look past my own pain and work through the A issues... If you can get your H to start MC with you, I think that would be a great step in the right direction.

Semper Fi,

RIF

in the past he has refused MC. i have asked at various times. i almost asked again but did not. i don't want to badger him when he has made i clear he does not want to.

SF... i'll do my best to expalin. for me, historically, the meaning of SF was messed up. i think due to what happened with my brother, as well as other things that occured during high school and my first year of college. i decided it was just something you basically allowed when the other person wanted it. and there were times when i didn't really allow it but didn't fight it off either. it was not beautiful, it was not a gift. it just was what it was.

during my own personal recovery, via IC and by confronting my brother. it's like i took my body back. it became mine. and therefore became something i could now choose to give as a gift. just like confessing was a gift i finally gave DH. in my own little bubble there was a very significant shift to SF. i've tried to tell DH but i'm not sure he understood.

now the best i can describe it is with the lack of marriage recovery, i feel i am re-losing my body. i'm losing the beautiful gift again. but this time i am understanding what is happening and so i am wanting to stop it. and the only way to stop it is to stop having SF.

DH has not said anything to me about his views of SF but i would have to guess that for him, it was as it should of been all along. and what i did ruined it for him. which is why we are at the spot we are at now.

as far as guilt and self-forgiveness, i work on it. i try. i know not living as a fogived person is not good for those around me. still, i doubt i'll ever really be able to completely forgive myself.

Just to add more confusion, lemme do a bit of sorta, maybe, analysis. So without the betrayal, what would the marriage look like? Are you sure? Well, maybe I will just ask questions.

What level of communication would you have? What would SF be like? Would you be happier or sadder? Where oh where would you be?

Now look at your marriage WITH betrayal. Adultery is the 900 pound orge sitting in the same room. So is the WS a better person because of lessons learned or the same person? Is the BS wiser or better or what? How much investment has the WS put in the relationship>

For Bob, Squid eats it with a spoon but reciprocity doesn't seem in her universe - did I get that right? Would it have been any different if her affair had never happened? Are you expecting her to be a different person or the person you married with a better character set that now precludes an affair? What do you still love about her and what do you not love?

FLT2H - you want to be his best friend. Ok, then be his best friend. That means accepting him as he is. There is no reset button. You can't kiss it and make it better. You choose the path you now find yourself walking - right? So where is it cast in stone that you get what you want when the reality is that he is still dealing with choices you made that broke his heart? Isn't that a bit of the same kind of entitlement mind set that got you where you are now?

What kind of marriage would you have if you had never betrayed him? Would it be better or worse than now? Is what you have now better or worse than most of your friends?

He is still with you. So at some level, he has forgiven you and wants to be with you. He still has lingering issues that he is dealing with. Now you can give up, or you can keep on keeping on. Your husband did the heavy lifting to get him where he is - can you hold up your end of the load?

I will give each of you my bottom line and your own mileage may vary. What I wanted from my wife was an investment in me and the relationship. I told her so in NO uncertain terms. I explained in detail what it would take to make me a happy camper. I also explained that I didn't expect her to kiss my feet or walk on eggs. I wanted and still want a normal partner with give and take, POJA, RH and all the rest.

Mostly I get it.

But I don't trust her completely. And while the pain has scabbed over pretty much, I still get a twinge from time to time. There is not a day that goes by that I don't remember the pain. There is not a day that goes by that I do not feel a bit sad. As time has flown by, the sadness gets shorter and shorter and the reflection the same.

But it hasn't gone away in spite of the investment my wife has made in me and our relationship. And it may never go away - don't know - can't predict the future. Affairs are the gift that keeps on giving. And that is just the way it is.

That said, I have no intention of squatting on the moral high ground or leaving. I am reasonably happy with my life and my wife and family. Since there is no reset button, I have no clue if I am happier or not as happy as I would have been without the dang bad judgement my wife exercised at one point in our lives.

Larry

Hi Larry,

I read your post but i'm not sure what to do with it. are you saying acceptence is the key? accept the state of the marriage as is. don't try to improve it? just accept it.

accept the fact that he does not feel special and just leave him there?

accept the fact that SF is now about once a month and alhtough it seems physically helpful to him, not very emotionally helpful to either one of us from what i can tell.

Larry, if i do nothing then in 5 yrs when the youngest is taken to college there will be nothing left.

that does not seem like a good plan to me

This thread is why you don't have an affair. Marriage is already tough enough and faces challenges from day one. Couple that with an affair and you have the gift that never stops giving.....Your BH, imo, will never forget what happened and whether he can finally process it and deal with it in a healthy manner and accept that things will never be pure again, like it was "supposed" to be when you said "I do", then he may stand a chance of taking what is a new marriage complete with the need to overcome an affair by his FWW and make the best of it.

I hope so for you and him both. Keep trying. I admire you for doing that!

I'm not in the same place as you, Larry, but I have to disagree with what you wrote. You said that the husband did the heavy lifting, but if he hasn't even filled out the ENs questionnaire, he's not lifting very heavily now, is he? You noted that you "explained in detail what it would take to make me a happy camper" and that seems to be the problem with her BH - he HASN'T explained what will make him a happy camper. It takes two people to make a marriage work and it doesn't look like her BH is putting in any effort other than "he is still with you." Yeah, my WW uses that as evidence that she's working on the marriage: 'I'm still here, aren't I?' Uh-huh, but just showing up to work doesn't mean you're doing a good job.

I've just recently become a BH so I'm not sure how I will feel later on down the road. My WW has recommitted (supposedly) to our marriage.

You keep talking about SF as a gift, and it is a gift. The problem I would feel is that it was supposed to be a gift to me but you gave it to someone else already.

I would assume that his accepting your advances is somewhat of a good sign.

Perhaps he feels that you NEED to be the one making the advances. It probably makes him feel better that you are the one chasing him instead of some OM. For me, after finding out about the things my wife did with the OM I can't see myself initiating or even wanting sex with her for a long time. It just feels like she doesn't belong to me anymore. I think (even though I know it's unhealthy to feel this way) I would need constant reassurance that she is the only one for me. Don't know if this will help or not. Sorry.

Cubed, we are about 3 yrs into this. early on, he made it very clear he needed me to do the initiating. i was very happy to, i was glad he was able to accept from me. and for quite a long time all activity was totally one way. it took a long time for that to finally change. that was good progress when real SF was finally brought back into our marriage.

it would help emensly if DH, like Larry, would explain what would make him happy.

the fact is, maybe he does not explain because NOTHING will make him happy.

maybe some people cannot work thur the betrayal.

and yet he is not saying that. he says he wants to stay married. he says he has forgiven me but always follows that up with he has not forgetten, which is ok. i won't be forgetting ever either.

Maybe forgetting is what he probably really wants to do. I know for me just thinking of her mouth on his body, her doing for him whatever he wanted her to and enjoying it too. That's something I don't think I'll ever get over. I hope that you can work through it though.

Hi larry

For Bob, Squid eats it with a spoon but reciprocity doesn't seem in her universe - did I get that right?

Not quite. It takes exaggerated levels of protracted investment from me to convince Squid I am not going to make her confront any consequence of her affair ( she receives ANYTHING as punishment... ANYTHING). Once she is content I won't do or say anything that might make her feel bad about herself she will sometimes do nice loving things for me to.

But the effort is herculean on my part, and just isn't sustainable either.

Would it have been any different if her affair had never happened?

I was more accepting of some of Squids more unhelpful personality traits then,in part, because we were each others only ones, and also because I trusted her intentions were not malign. Now I am not her only one and she has shown herself to be not purely intentioned.

Are you expecting her to be a different person or the person you married with a better character set that now precludes an affair?

Yes I hoped Squid would learn to become a better spouse through learning from the catalyst of her affair. She HAS become a better spouse in many ways, but not the ways I particularly appreciate. I guess Squid would say the same abut me.

What do you still love about her and what do you not love?

Even with Squids affair at its very height I never lost one shred of love for Squid.
A love that defies logic and Dr. Harley's lovebank analogy.

So my love for her just exists separate from any particular aspect of her.

She is a good mom, a mindfully practical wife, and shares a 25 year history with me. I guess I love those things.

Its not helpful for me to write here the things about her I don't love. I just get indignant when I think of such. Best not to go there.

I am trying to intelligently manage the tension between acceptance and settling right now. Its not easy mate.