I realise this is super long and want to thank you in advance for taking the time to read it all. Posted as well in other topic and infidelity, just in case.
I am new here but have read for days and nights different posts and threads in the forum. and have read the basic concept, the Q&A as well as articles, but still find myself confused about my situation. I hope somebody can help me. My boyfriend and I have been together for 2.5 years. Just for the background info, he has 2 teenage sons who live with him 100% of the time, and I have 1 teenage son who also lives with me 100% of the time. We do not live together yet, my BF and I, and this is another major issue because we cannot resolve the problem of where we will live, but this I can deal with in another post in the future.

We live in 2 different cities 30 minutes apart. We usually see each other on the weekends, but when we don't, we talk on the phone every night to talk about our days, and sometimes personal and relationship issues. Now for the last year at least, we have been fighting about anything and everything, at first every week almost, now, every week at least.The fights have become more and more vicious, verbally abusive, accusative on each side, demanding. We have seen, at my BF's request, a couple counsellor 1.5 years ago, who has identify my BF with having the major issues that cause the fighting (mainly trust which he recognised I do nothing that makes him doubt him, it comes from his past relationships). Funny because he had kept accusing me of not trusting him which is what brought us to counselling in the first place! Still, even with this info, no major change when we were done with counselling. One year later, I went to see a different counsellor for myself because I was wanting to know what I could do to resolve the fighting issue. I obviously help making it a fighting match, how can I stop it, what can I do or say (or not) to prevent the fights. The C gave me tips to help but it is very difficult to apply, but I managed to stop defending myself and it made some positive results but not for long, as it stopped working after a while. It took no time for the vicious fights to come back on track. It seems that my BF needs to fight, and will push and push and push with sarcasm, DJ, AO, AH, D, to the point of no return, even if I hung up the phone, tell him to stop, agree with him, see his point, don't become defensive. But he won't stop and then I start defending myself constantly. I even started to be disrespectful myself and hate it because this is not me. Towards the end of the C period, after about 1 month, my BF joined me at my request. The first time, he stormed out in the middle of the counselling session, very angry, leaving both the C and I in shock. The counsellor told me that my BF seems to have the intention, the concept and the willingness to make our relationship better, but not the capacity. The second time which is also the last time we went, the counsellor told us that it might be time to say good bye and leave this relationship since we are not able to make a stop to those constant fighting match. When we left, I felt devastated. My BF tried to convince me to not break up. He said he did not come to counselling to have the C tell us to separate. We discussed for about 10 minutes in my car, then he got angry again (sorry I cannot remember why) punched the inside of my car, giving me my keys back (he has the keys to my apart) then left. I was done with this relationship. But he kept phoning me, begging me, telling me he never broke up with me. He succeeded to convince me that we can make it better, by telling me what he needs to change. That was last January.

Since then, the fights have not stopped but I love him so much that the thought of breaking up hurts too much and feel I would make a big mistake in breaking up with him. I gave myself until the end of June that just past to see if things got better otherwise I decided I would leave him then. That was giving us a chance over a period of about 3 months. I would rather be alone than fighting for the next 30 years with him. It did not go better, the fights continued every week, with viciousness and ferocity. The end of June came, and when we fought, I stopped all communication with him, but he would not stop trying to get me into talking with him. I sent him a long email telling him that I love him more than he can think of (which he tells me the same by the way) but my dreams of marrying him would have to remain just that, a dream, because I see no change on either side, to make our relationship go smoothly. He is very persistent in convincing me to not break up even when he has given me my keys back several times before (breaking up), I did too BTW, I am not implying I am innocent. So we tried again to make it work. I am very clear in my expectations in this relationship, let him know what I wanted and he told me he can make a big difference and change.

We went on our planned camping trip. He did make one change while camping, except that we fought 3 times in 10 days! First time was about him imagining I was thinking about my xBF that I haven't seen or talked to in 25 yrs! The second fight was about him making demands of me that he is unable to give himself. He has done that forever it seems, pointing fingers at me or my son (and others BTW), accusing me of this or that when he is the one who fits the descriptions. The last fight was so bad, and done in front of my child. His sons did not want to come with us, his youngest went to his mom in another province for the summer, his oldest is 18.5 and was working. My son did not want to come because he knew we would fight and had no interest in witnessing that, but I could not leave him alone, so he was the only child with us. My son has had enough of these fights that he has witnessed for over 2 years and is quite stressed out about them, understandably. My BF left me that last day of camping while we were droping off his camping stuff at his place and his oldest witnessed the fight went he came down to help out. My BF did not stop being verbally abusive in front of the kids, and told me he would come to my apart the next day to pick up his stuff here and to give me my keys. He did. To me, that was a break up. It hurt, but I promised my son that I would never fight anymore and have him witness that.

For the following 9 days, my BF sent me constant emails and text messages and phone calls, but I would not pick up nor answer by the way. I gave up after 9 days, when he wrote let's talk or say good bye in a civilise manner. So I met with him, to say good bye, we ended up talking and I told him that he has an anger problem and never will I ever fight viciously again, especially not in front of the kids. I said I had no hope that we could make it, that we have tried everything, we have discussed at lenght after every fights and seemed to understand what changes need to be made on each part, that we say beautiful promis to each other, that every talk seem very positive, but shortly after, we are back to our same old vicious circle. I had absolutely no hope. He wanted to try one more time, and he convinced me once again. So I told him that we can try, but we won't see each other in front of the kids in case we fight again, which would be extremely probable, and he had to see a counsellor for his anger problem, and he did. I said until we prove that we can fight without turning it into abuse. He hated to only see me like we did in the beginning (dating phase only), but did it for a few days. He convinced me after a few days of re-dating, to sleep over at my place, that this was not a relationship, that he is 45 and past the dating stage, etc. I actually missed him a lot too. I accepted to see him like before. We did wonderful for a bit more than 2 weeks. Our longest time ever! We still fought, but he remained calm and we decided that we do not have to agree on every issue, but give each other understanding. The fights were very controlled, we discussed calmly, reached an agreement that we do not have to agree on everything, and were both happy with this. When he started to hurt me with his comments or otherwise (he has never being physically abusive BTW) I only had to ask if he was trying to hurt me for him to realise he was falling down that path and he stopped. Those 2 weeks gave me so much hope that we can finally make it, that we got out of this vicious circle. Until last Wednesday.

Like I said, he phones me every day during the week if we did not see each other. But once our usual evening phone call is over, I had never phoned him back the same evening or emailed him for the 2.5 years we are together. We say good night and talk again the next day. Except 3 times the last 2 weeks. Here is what happened. One evening 2 weeks ago, I sent him an email with a question after we finished our call, he did not answer it until the next morning. He was supposed to be watching a movie at home with his son. His excuse for not answering my email was that he turned off his computer. But he never turns off his computer. he admits it looks bad, but his reason seemed good, he has a virus and had to turn off his computer. One evening last week, after we talked on the phone, I phoned him 4 times on his home # and cell # but he did not pick up. I left messages the 4 times to please call me, but he never did. I sent him an email that same evening telling him that I phoned and want to talk to him, but he did not answer the email either until the next morning. I became suspicious, thought he was cheating on me, or out, or something. I thought he would read my email, or hear his phone beeping signaling he has messages. There was no way he could not hear his cell as it does beep every so minutes until you stop the beeps. I confronted him the next day after his work, he remained calm (WOW) but he was so convincing of the reason he did not phone or email me, that I decided to believe him. He said he had talked to his 2 sons that day, and to me, so he did not expect any phone calls (I never phone after we talk remember?). He said he went to bed about half hour after we hung up the phone at 7pm, turned off his cell sound, and took a sleeping pill. He never goes to bed until 1am usually, and he never turns the cell sound off. I was still suspicious, but had no proof of anything, so I decided to believe him in both instances (the email the week before and the calls and email that week),but it happened a 3rd time Tuesday night. We have been emailing each other for some reason that evening, and by 9:20, the email stopped from his side even though I sent him more with questions. When I asked him why he did not answer my emails until the next morning, what did he do last night, he ridiculed me, told me he has a web cam in his bedroom, that I can spy on him all night if I want, that I don't trust him, that he doesn't have to stay by his phone or computer just in case I contact him, but never told me what he did the night before.The fight escalated again with his usual self, sarcasm, accusations, turning the conversation around, making it my problem, nasty comment such as shut up, etc, avoiding to answer the question of his activities or whereabouts. I still don't know anything about where he was or what he did after 9:20 that evening. I am afraid he is having an affair, or one night stands, or out with somebody. I feel he has a double life, one where he is a complete stranger to me. I don't know what he does after we talk in the evening, which usually is done by 9:00 pm at the latest. I very very rarely ask him what he did after we talk, as I try to be trustful, and when I did ask, he got upset or told me he does nothing. Same when he takes time off work for a day here and there, he apparently stay at home doing nothing. I confronted him on that one too and he accuse me of not trusting him.

Since Tuesday last week, we have only communicated by email and I just have no more energy to meet and talk for hours which we usually do when we "solve" issues. Instead, I wrote emails with issues I wanted answers to, but he avoided answering most of the issues I brought up, by being accusative, by confusing everything, by "pretending" he does not know or he told me already, or whatever, he is full of excuses in my eyes. I am now very angry at him, I am exhausted, but want to know if I am making a big deal out of nothing. I have no proof of him cheating on me, but it is kind of difficult to check on him since we do not live together, and he said I can ask him about his whereabouts anytime, that I have the right to know all about it, but when I ask, he gets angry, avoid answering, gets mean, etc. but does not answer my questions about his whereabouts. I challenged him Wednesday by email by saying that this is fine, he wants it his way, no questions whatsoever about his whereabouts, no disturbing him with calls, emails or textmessages outside the allotted time on the phone (which is usually done by 8h30), that he can be free when we are not together, etc. but this is going to be the same for me. I gave him a bit of his own medicine and he did not like it, of course. He wrote that he needs to trust that I am not seeing somebody else and needs to be trusted. How can a relationship work if we don't know about each other's whereabouts, if we give blind trust without questions. He is a great person when we don't fight, we love being together, he shows understanding, we have lenghtly conversation, some very deep and serious conversation, we want to get married, live together, and my needs at every level are filled so are his he says. What should I do, is this worth saving, is it time to say goodbye definitely? I should mention that I am very confused about what we fight about, because one minute I say or do something and it is perfectly fine, one other minute, I say or do the exact same thing and it starts a fight. He knows about this too. Also, he asks of me to say or do what he does not deliver himself. He points finger at me, he accuse me of what he does himself, sometimes things I don't even do myself. I cannot take it anymore. I feel confused, will I make the biggest mistake of my life if I break up with him, should I try harder to make things work, hoping he is going to be so happy with me and see how great of a partner I am. Will he finaly make the necessary change once and for all, to make this relationship work?

Sooooo, two thirds of the time you've been together has been fighting....

I'm not sure why this is continuing when you are saying you leave the room/end the phone call/refuse to escalate when he fights with you. I see it two ways: 1. somehow you are being ineffective or 2. you haven't realized that he can only communicate with aggression.

He sounds like he's projecting... He isn't trustworthy, so he blames you. But then, you (parden my exaggeration here) pitch a fit b/c he didn't call/email you back immediately. I sense you might have some insecurities, whether they are stemming from his actions or something leftover from family of origin - something you may consider to keep working on with your IC. Even if he was home, watching tv, he's entitled to not respond until he's ready to. And if he isn't home... I'm sorry, I can't feel good about telling you to hire a PI to follow him, as I don't even know if this bickering, in front of your child no less is worth the investment.

I'm really sorry, I wish I had something nicer to say. You've painted a very dismal picture of this man. And I don't see what's worth saving... Ultimately, that is your decision, but I personally feel, based on what you've described, that you deserve someone more centered...

chobbs
you wrote "I see it two ways: 1. somehow you are being ineffective or 2. you haven't realized that he can only communicate with aggression."

You are quite right on both cases. When I leave the room or refuse to escalate, it works, but only temporary as I end up defending myself and getting upset myself as the false/wrong/accusations pour in. He is projecting a lot in my point of view. Then I help escalating. When I hang up the phone, he gets more upset and it will show in the next call.

He also "acts-reacts" with aggressivity. I can try helping him to recognise, but he denies at the moment of the fights, and therefore continues on. He often does not seem to notice or to care. He says, afterward, that he feels so hurt by me that he feels like hurting back, and he does! He has acknowledge recently that he has an anger problem and seeked counselling at my request, and has been seeing the C twice already. He is willing to work on being a better person.

This is confusing. I feel I must try harder to see if I can make it work. It is very difficult though to remain calm when hurts pours in in the form of accusasions, blame, mean words, etc. I do not believe that he is capable of hurting me physically. I have seen him angry enough time that I think it would have happened already. Over 25 years ago, I was in a very abusive relationship with a man, he was abusive at all levels. I hated him, I could not get rid of him, he was very dangerous. This time, it is very different.

Minou,

"I can try helping him to recognise" was a phrase that jumped out at me in your last post...after reading your original post above.

You see him projecting...you don't see where you project.

You've had this experience before in your life, over 25 years ago...and I bet to different levels since then, also.

I believe we continue to encounter our issues until we own them...

What did you learn about your own personal boundaries? What boundary enforcements are...how it's solely up to you to predetermine them, enforce them progressively, and live from your own boundaries, not basing your choices on possible response...choosing directly from the code you've determined for yourself...which are your boundaries.

They go around you.

You hold yourself to them...and enforce them when others cross them. You learn to own, apologize and amend.

Then fighting isn't possible...there can be conflict...and you see it as healthy, even intimate...a way to connect...not argue, refute, conform, lie or pretend.

I see you lying through each argument...saying you won't tolerate this and then tolerating it.

I see you struggling very hard to learn this for yourself...and your focus continually being on him, not you.

There's a false payoff for you with your choices...so I would advise you focusing on YOUR stuff...not his. When you DJ, own aloud, admit and resolve not to DJ him.

So that when he DJs, you'll enforce your first boundary...stating what you heard. "I hear you saying I'm an inconsiderate slob. That's a DJ." State first.

He does it again in the same conversation, then your second boundary enforcement is to state with consequences, "I hear you saying I'm something else. You're choosing to DJ again. I'm going to remove myself from this conversation for twenty minutes until I can calm my emotions down so I hear what you're sharing with me without the abuse getting in my way."

And then you really do...you hang up for 20 minutes...you focus on what you're feeling...know that emotions are transmitted throughout your system by internal drugs...breathe, soothe, trace where your anger is coming from and find out if it's coming from you believing his definition for you...or from taking his opinion as fact inside you...or whatever is hitting you...and know it.

Time's up and you call him back and state your thoughts and feelings, you understand what was triggered inside of you. You're open to continuing to share and be shared with...or not. You respect his choices...so you respect your own.

This is the key your C shared with you...to own your half of the communication...to not react defensively...to state, "I'm feeling defensive." And when you feel hurt, identify the boundary crossing and be honest, also..."I want to hurt you back, too, right now. I'm going to take an hour break and calm down. I didn't enforce my boundaries in this interaction and I think a lot of my anger is coming from me and letting myself down."

Loving, calm, honest and stated, not demonstrated. Because that's who you really are Minou. Takes practice, practice, practice...and when he continues to DJ, you take third, fourth and fifth enforcements....when you remove yourself from the conversation for 20 minutes, then for the night...then what's your next one? Remove yourself from the relationship? For a month until you really read all you can about boundaries?

You won't be able to change that which you refuse to do yourself...whatever you do to others, you will do to yourself...and whatever you will not do to yourself, you won't do that to others.

So if you won't enforce your boundaries around yourself...own your DJs, your AOs, etc...not own, apologize and amend...then you won't enforce when others cross those same boundaries.

Live from respect, Minou. Then your questions of what you think you should do or not do, will do or not do, want to do or not do will already be answered. You are the only one who can know yourself...an share who you are. Your power. You can't do that for him (because THAT's a DJ) and he can't do it for you.

We don't grow our partners; we grow ourselves, side by side...

Learn to partner, Minou...from respect and love. It'll enhance your whole life experience. I think you're ready. I think you've brought this back to yourself enough times you're really ready to change. Because the pain of not changing is now greater than the pain of changing.

You're not bad, wrong or alone. We all go through this...in different ways. Learning our boundaries, acting from our own code (not based on possible response) is where our wholeness becomes tangible for us, finally. We are not victims nor perpetrators...we are human beings.

LA

LovingAnyway,

1st, I must tell you your response brought tears to my eyes. I am so touch by your understanding and compassion. Thank you very much. I was just about to write him an email to tell him that it was over, that I had no hope left. I did not want to hear his voice or to see him in fear to be convinced one more time by his hope. I saw no light. I will try and see where it leads, at least I will know I have tried everything the right way before I make a final decision should I decide to leave him.

I understand what you are saying. Your response is what my C has told me to do during the figths and before they escalate to that abusive point, but is it ever difficult to do! I think my problem is I want result very fast, within a week or two. I have tried, and failed of course, but when I try, I get discouraged very quickly if I see no change in him when I stick to the advice of the C. I am definitely not doing it long enough. I find it absolutely exhausting to feel that I am the only one who tries hard to make our relationship better, and I want him to try at the same time as me, at all times. Interestingly, he tells me he tries harder than I am and feels he is the only one carrying the relationship.

How do you keep in check, enforcing your boundaries, all the time and react in a loving way, respectful manner, to yourself and the other when the other is not stopping the abuse? How long should I gave it a try without expecting him to change as well? How do you find the strenght within yourself to go on? How do you get the courage to remain strong and respectful when you feel crushed?

p.s. do you have a good book or website that you know of about boundaries? His C must have talked to him about something similar because the 1st time he saw her, he talked about boundaries. I think we are touching a root here.
you guys are amazing.
Re boundaries, I think i know exactly where it comes from in my childhood.

I feel like I can relate to this thread because I have also been living with a lot of pain due to the fighting in my relationship. Please tell me, what is a "DJ"? I do not know the acronyms on this board yet, but if there is a way to shut down the ugliness in a dispute I would love to hear more about it.

Dear Loreleille,

Just after I finished reading your post, I saw you replied to mine here. DJ are Disrespectful Judgments.

Your story is very similar to mine, you are right. Nothing seems to work in my relationship. I feel he has an anger problem just like your H, and our fights are almost on a weekly basis and are making me sick. I never know what will cause a fight, it doesn't seem to matter what I talk about, how I talk to him, how I fill his EN, etc. I feel the more I do plan A (did you read on that?) the more I feel like a doormat. I decided that I no longer want to suffer. Unfortunately, I did not come to MB to separate from him, I came to seek help. I was referred to this forum by a MC. I also posted on General Questions II because I thought he was cheating on me, but I still don’t have facts or proof. Everyone seemed to have only one answer over there (GQII): run from him.

I just broke up from him a couple days ago, but not because of the opinions of others, I just cannot fight anymore. I need to take care of myself and my son. Even if I love him and miss him very much, I do not believe anymore that he can change, although he often realise his own mistakes, no actions seem to take effect for long enough for us to re-energise and breath. I still love him and a little part of me hopes that without me, he may act now on what needs to change on his side, and will begin to work on himself, if not for us to get back to each other, for himself. We will see.

I wish I could help you in your M. My only advice to you is to take really good care of yourself, I would not want for you to start feeling physically sick (and depressed) like I am. I cannot advise to stay or leave, or try differently. You are still very young and obviously intelligent. Think about one thing: how would you see your relationship in 30 years from now with your H? Is it possible to attain that vision? Keep me inform, I will check MB often.