FL,

Would NOT storing the dressers for your sister do significant damage to your relationship with her? Would she think you loved her any less simply because you could not offer to do that for her? And if she did think that, even though it is not true, how would that make you feel?

I think maybe this is one case where if you respect your DH's need not to store those dressers it would go a long way toward helping him to feel special to you, kwim? It sounds almost as though you are feeling like you have to choose between him and your family, is that correct?
Do you perceive him to be asking you to choose him at the expense of your family?
Does your family expect you to choose them at the expense of your marriage?
Just some things to think about...not sure where I'm going with this, I guess just trying to determine which is more important, or if they are equally important, and what to do about it!

Hugs,
NOW

I guess what I am wondering is, as dysfunctional as you say your family has been, and that you still love them and have a close bond with them despite all of that, that you can forgive their shortcomings and such, why not do that for your DH? Why allow his shortcomings and failures (as you perceive them) to come between you? I think his decisions as they apply to your family are designed to protect your marriage.....and that means he loves you. See, if he allows something that he KNOWS will eat at him and potentially drive a wedge between you, then he has an obligation to prevent that. He knows that if he allowed it, that he would end up resenting you for it, and he can't risk that....BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU.

larry, i understand what you are saying. i no longer think, in fact i never did think, this one refusal means he does not love me. the fact is our "recovery" stalled long time ago, if it ever even started, and after almost 3 yrs, i wearing out. i need some positives from him to build on.

the dresser question was just a cataylst of our discussion. a discussion i have been trying to have with him previously too. why is it we are not recovering and getting closer?

i know.... he is still here isn't he? well, sorry to say but that is not enough for me. i know smart cookie would understand. i'm not the type that just thinks staying married is enough. i see no accomplshment in that. not if the marriage is cold and distant.

now, my family puts ZERO pressure on me regarding what is going on with DH. ok, so i could of immediately told the one sister no when she asked me to take the other sisters dresser. i wanted to say yes.

none of them call the house phone ever, they all say do what you need to do for DH and your marriage.

NOW, you make a good point. once again, all i can say regarding the dresser is i agree. i would not want him to say yes if ever time he saw it he would get any sort of unpleasant sensation.

guys, don't you see? i didn't start a fight with my husband to get him to change his mind. i don't care about the dumb dressers either. when we talked about it, i asked gently and then i told him it was ok.

was this post titled, "help me figure out how to get him to change his mind"?

i realize what i wrote about was the specific situation. so i understand why we keep talking about the dressers.

i should never have posted in the first place. there is no magical answer to be found here. our marriage is never going to be what i would like it to be. maybe i'm not capable of it anyway.

all fingers seem to point to me anyway.

i need to lose 30 lbs and i need to work out lingering issues about my dad without even knowing what really even happened back then.

Faith, I'm sorry, but what did you say? Can you repeat that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Agreed.

Then lose 30 lbs.

Is your Dad still alive? Maybe nothing happened back then. Maybe you can have a ritual and bury the past, forgive him for what he may or may not have done, and get on with your life.

If you are having trouble in the SF dept, a glass of wine does wonders. Also, there are a lot of books on the subject that might help, as well as herbal concoctions that increase libido. You H is safe, he is the one you are supposed to be having SF with, so enjoy it immensely.

And I am not being flippant, FL, but there is nothing wrong with you except maybe a tendancy to get caught up in stuff that needs to be let go of.

And yes, you should have posted this thread.

I repeat, there is nothing wrong with you... that is not wrong with every other person as well. Slight change in details perhaps, but the details don't really matter, it's the ability to let things go that are not important that matters.

ya know, i have asked him specifically what i need.

here is an example for you, i give DH foot rubs and back rubs all the time because he LOVES them. he always enjoys them and always thanks me.

i asked him for a foot rub and he does not enthusastically want to reciprecate. why is that?? ok, sometimes he will end up giving me one, but it starts with a response that makes it awfully clear he did not like the request. when he asks me i say "SURE!"

the last time i asked i was extremly blunt about how it feels to have him respond as he does. i asked him to think about how it feels when he asks me and i happily say yes, not to mention the times i just sit down while he is watching tv and initiate a foot rub myself. and then i asked him to compare that with receiving a negative response. ok, so he appologized and in fact a few days later he gave me one without asking. and i thanked him. but i bet that will be the end of it again. he will totatlly forget.

NOW, you asked me why i cannot forgive DH's shortcommings as i do my siblings. the disfunction we lived thru was not their fault or their doing. ok, some of it was my brother's doing but he apologized for that, we have made total peace about that, it's totally forgotten about in my eyes. initially, i forgave him, even before i confronted him because he was young and on drugs and yada yada. i truely forgave him but the hurt lingered. after confronting him and also because of his loving response, his heartfilled apology, the events no longer haunt me or hurt me at all.

ok, my one unstable sister is still a mess and still causing trouble. i don't like her so much. it took me a while to get here, it's hard to know if she is capable of being any better due to her mental health but i no longer allow that to matter. i don't like the person she is, and so i doubt i would do much for her anymore. i still don't write her out of my life for good, i'm just not wired to do that.

to me DH is more than just having short comings and scars, he is choosing to not work on our relationship even though he choose to stay married. even after years of great effort on my part to make ammends and be a better wife. to me he is enjoying the efforts on my part (which is good, that is the poing!) but not caring enough about me and my life enjoyment.

FL,

I think I get what you're saying....it does sound, though, from what you have been saying, that DH is waiting for positives from YOU to move forward. I don't KNOW that, I guess you'll have to ask him. Maybe you have.
What I have seen very often, and experienced in my own marriage, is while this whole business of meeting each other's needs is all well and good, it can quickly become a push-pull kind of thing, a scorekeeping venture maybe, and it turns into nothing more than a tug-of-war contest to see whose needs are more important, with one saying "I won't meet any more of your needs until you start meeting some of mine". I don't know what can be done except to meet the other's needs as much as possible without compromising your principles in the process, and when yours aren't being met, to simply try to meet them yourself in healthy and acceptable ways, meaning ways that won't hurt your spouse.
That is what I have been trying to do, and it IS hard, but it's way better than putting the burden of my happiness so much on my DH's shoulders.
Hope I'm making sense here....


NOW

finally...

could it be that your husband just doesn't like to rub peoples feet...

could it be that simple...

could it....

coult it become that you rub your husbands not for reciprication of anything...

but because he likes it...a sacrifice for him...


otherwise you will set up your offering or engaging in a foot rub as a powerstruggle....

if you rub his..
then he better be prepared to reciprocate...

your footrubs come with strings attached...

I don't like feet so I don't ever rub anyones....
but I try to offer all kinds of touches to my hubby...and NONE are ever offered with thought of what am I going to get out of this...

thats a recipe for failure...resentment and tally keeping....
bad marriage practices in my opinion....

also finally you say you don't have a smoochie smoochie relationship...
then I ofcourse say...

start one....

EVEN IF

it feels strange
uncomfortable
empty at first
scary
(ooohh scary)

finally...

your post has all kinds of things in it that lead to feelings of unhappiness...

and also..

all kinds of examples of talking this or that out...

and you want change....
you desire change...

and what is the mantra to the change here..

YOU have to change
YOU have to act
YOU have to throw the stone to get the pool to ripple...

whats with the weight issue
are you self reflecting that or projecting a negative image on to your husband on to you....

what's the issue with that....

have you read bad childhood good life....

might want to consider it...

I am not convinced that everything HAS to be worked out...

life is short...
and full of good things
and when we focus on the negative
it will never seem very good...

people don't ever like this answer..
but I am more and more convinced we MAKE life harder than it has to be.....

ARK

weaver, thanks. my dad is dead. when i was in IC dealing with what happened with my brother, we first talked about my dad. she had me write a letter to him (he was dead then too). it did not seem to help one bit.

you are right, i do need to let go. there is no way of ever knowing and why should it matter, i'm 44 now!!

yes, i have problems at times with SF, not giving but recieving. not a libido problem either. but you did hit on it. not feeling safe, a panic wells up in me at the point of what should be the most enjoyment. i though i was past it. there was a time when it stopped happening but it is happeningn again now recently.

losing weight: i get 10 lbs off and then i faulter. truthfully, i think i am holding on to the weight as a barrier. and as we can all see it's working just fine. except for the fact that i don't like the barrier.

but, wait a minute, it's my barrier...

(sarcastic) no, nothing wrong with me at all.

And sometimes, I have noticed, that while I am meeting my DH's needs, it is simultaneously withdrawing units from my love bank. In other words, while I'm adding to his love bank, mine is dwindling. Why is that?

NOW and ark, just wanted to acknowledge both of your posts, i have to get myself out the door so i really have to turn this computer off now...

both of you are sorta saying the same thing.

key is to give without expectation of receiving anything, whether is it foot rubs back or flowers or whatever.

it is hard to sustain.

i don't care how the love is shown, eventually i do need to see love being returned, i'm not a saint.

i'm sure i miss some of the ways he chooses to show me love. i can learn to look better.

that's about all i can say.

thanks.

Amen to that...the longer I live, the more this answer seems to be the only reasonable one.

FL,

Just pulled some quotes from you on this thread...I am seeing a lot of contradictions in things you've said and I am really confused and not at all sure what the issue is anymore. Are you confused too? I think you should take DH up on his offer to go to counseling to "talk about your dad"....you mentioned that you would only go to IC if he was behind you to support you, and it sure sounds like he IS willing and capable.
If you don't think that is the core issue, you can always steer the sessions to what you believe you WANT to talk about.

Sorry to bother you....I am done now.


QUOTES:

i'm not mad at him for not being able to do it. i'm really not.

but i am left feeling very bad. Like his hatred for them out measures his love for me?

historically i have struggled with his dislike of my family. because i am part of that family. i have a hard time seperating myself from them. if my family is so worthless, why does that dislike not extend to me too. i'm cut from the same cloth. i'm not dramitically different.

i want to be convinced he does not mean to hurt me, and he does not look down on me as he looks down on them.

really what i need from you guys is comforting. i don't want to be told he is wrong, if you do think that, keep it to yourself. it won't help me. i want to be married not right.

my primary focus is on my marriage/family.

i know DH only wanted me to distance myself from my family in order to protect me. but he could never understand that the bond i felt with them would not allow me to be able to be distant. even with all the problems they are my siblings and i love them.

at this point he says he will go with me to C to talk about my dad. or we can forget the whole thing and just have the type of marriage we have right now.

so yes, my own past actions hindered my "oneness" with DH. i don't believe my current ones are though. and given what DH said to me last night, he agrees.

anyway, this will all blow over.

we are still together and i do believe we communicate better so that is good.

i no longer think, in fact i never did think, this one refusal means he does not love me.

i know.... he is still here isn't he? well, sorry to say but that is not enough for me.

our marriage is never going to be what i would like it to be.

i don't care how the love is shown, eventually i do need to see love being returned, i'm not a saint.

Ok I think I am getting the jist of all of this. Here is my humble take on this. First let me say that my FWH is you and I am your husband. I do not understand his connection to his horrible family. My FWH was abused by my FIL (who is not his biological father) and his mother stood by and let it happen. I do not understand his constant need to go running whenever they call. It caused alot of problems in our marriage. To me it felt like he didn't care about me because he ALWAYS put his family before me. He never left his mother and cleaved to me. I felt rejected and alone. At first I did all I could to be the best wife I could be, but after years of "rejection" I stopped trying. Our marriage became what you are describing. Maybe I can give you some insight as to what your husband is feeling.

1) He feels like he is somewhere on your list of priorities next to flushing the toilet...maybe lower.

2) He doesn't feel like you are a unit/team.

3) He feels very alone, unappreciated, and taken for granted.

Because he is feeling this way, he is very guarded with you. He doesn't want to get hurt anymore so he has built up a very strong wall against you. And he had every right to do so. You have put him in this position just like my husband put me in it. I started not caring about his needs..after all he had his family...why did he need me? I started feeling our lives together were a mistake. And then when I found out about the A, it only reinforced everything I was already feeling. To top it all off...they supported his A and gladly welcomed the OW. Honey, you have dug yourself a hole and you are only getting deeper. You need to do what my FWH has done. He told them that I was his choice and that they would have to deal with it. He still does what his mother needs him to do, but the difference is he comes straight home after he is done instead of spending hours there like before. I now feel that I am first in his life and that our family is the most important thing to him. You will need to do the same. It is a dangerous pattern that you have fallen into. And it is YOU that has to fix it. It took my FWH along time to break thru the wall I had built, but he did and we are doing great! You have to remember that it took your entire marriage to get to this point, it will take just as long to get it back to rights. It's a slow process, but one that is very worth it. IMHO, you need to sit down with your husband and say that you now understand what your family is doing to your marriage (when you do finally get it, that is), that they are a wedge between you and you didn't realise how it was making him feel. Then ask him what you need to do to show him that he is the center of your universe. He will not be willing at first, but keep trying. It IS within your power to have the marriage you have always wanted. After all, he isn't really mad at them for himself...he is mad at them for you....BECAUSE HE LOVES YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW, yes i am confused, no you are not bothering me and yes, i will take DH up on his offer to go to C with me to talk about my dad. no, i'm not looking forward to it. but i see the necesity of it so i'm going to do what i told my daughter to do when she wanted to get over her fear of roller coasters before going to jr yr of high school because the physics class goes on a field trip to Great America to "study" the roller coasters...

"just follow me, let's get in line. don't look or think about it, lets just do it!" she only did it cuz i was behind her telling her she will survive it, i promise!! she loves roller coasters now.

i too know DH is right for pushing me to be healthier, both the weight lose and to work out the issues, but between the heavy work load (i'm the main bread winner but in a company that has had multiple layoffs, leaving too much work for not enough workers), raising kids, with a lot of effort required for my son especially with school work (i'm the main homework helper cuz math is not DH's thing) and a marriage that is not strong...

i only have so much ability. i am not super woman. i realize if successful with the C, things could be much better, still, i was seriously suicidal once, during dad's illness and shortly after he died, i'm not going there again. i've had 7yrs of ****** here folks. i don't have much more in me.

if all that i have done to date is not enough for DH to see signs of my effort here, that's a problem. i have pulled myself out of a huge hole. i confessed remember? how can that not be a big enough sign?? i allowed SF to go one way for well over a yr, cuz that is what he needed. how is that not a strong enough sign?? i have been in major giver mood for a very very long time!!! sorry, but i need some positives to go on too.

something else worth saying here.... my affair was not the normal affair. i didn't "fall in love" with anyone. i put myself in bad situations, allowed myself to be used and hurt even by random men that i didn't even know. i was on a total destruction path, i was not having the time of my life in love with someone else. i was self-destructing. IC tried to tell DH that, to explain to him that i was not rejecting him, it was not about him, i was self-destructing.

see, this all occured months after my release from the mental program. i was released, but still a mess. i was on meds and being monitored by a dr but it was a joke. i would see her for 10 min. she said, "how are you?", i'ld say "fine". i hated her, no IC was occuring. while i was in the mental program, i had told her about the chatting activity, i wanted help. she called me a fluzzy. that ended my efforts for seeking help in that area.

so then i told her whatever i needed to say to get off the meds and to no longer see her. my DH just sat on the sidelines. did not get involved one bit.

then i went back to work at a job that was having multiple layoffs. my manager and my dept head both left via a pkg shortly after i was back. our project had been canned, i found myself in totally new area, with people who did not know me. i had my high rating to show i was a good worker but i had to prove myself all over again, lots of pressure!!! my new supervisor was not happy about me being in her group cuz she had to layoff someone else in order for me to come in. i never recovered and i got sucked into the internet more and more. DH still on the sidelines, totally disconnected. sure he had his reasons, he was not happy with our relationship either. but he choose to do nothing other than disconnect. that was his choice. he made that choice.

he even knew about my internet chatting long before i crossed the line to meeting people. i told him about it. i wanted help. his response: don't do it. nothing more. totally disconnected.

yes, obviously sometimes i get mad when i think about it, he watched on the sidelines content with life, at least content enough to sleep at night, play golf during the day, while i fell completely apart.

i'm not saying it is his fault. i did what i did. but he could of made a difference in all of this.

and now i am ranting, not good but honest.

lostanduncertain, i'm not sure i would agree that DH feels those same 3 things. i agree he feels like he is not high on my priority list, but i suspect that would be due more to the high demands of my job than my family. my family is not against my marriage, not against DH. never has been. they are loud as big families are. but my siblings were nice and welcoming to him when they met him.

my dad and step mom were jerks, and not at all welcoming.

DH saw my mom's mood swings and depression since i would live there on the weekends and over the summer while college was out. so he didn't like her so much. but she liked him. mostly he heard the stories of my childhood and saw my unstable's sister's behavior. she was hospitalized a few times early in our relationship and i would want to visit her, he preferred i would not. she made herself homeless for a while and wanted to live with us, but i refused cuz DH was opposed. i'll be honest, it was hard to refuse but i knew he was right, i didn't want her around my kids.

as time went on, it becamse clear to all that although he would be civil, he didn't really like them. still, my siblings never gave me any sort of grief about it.

i never spend huge amount of times away from home to be with the family. but i did spend too much time on the phone specifically due to crap from the unstable sister.

i bearly talk to them all now. i think it would be accurate to say that this dresser thing is the first thing i have tried to approach DH about since all this happened. he himself said, he does know i have distanced myself from them and he appreciates it.

yes, i dug myself into this hole but i've done a lot to rectify things. why can't i expect that at some point, like now, that he should start to do some heavy work too. he will say he is happy. he will himself say, i have done a ton to make ammends. but his actions make it clear, it's not enough to move him into some serious action back. why not??

a person cannot be a total giver. i cannot be a total giver. without eventually needing back. that is where i am at. i need some stuff back. i suppose some would say i sound like i am entitled to happiness, well guess what, I AM!!!

and if he really does not want to have a cooperative marriage where we both look out for each other, then he should let me go. oh but that would be hard, as i make the money, well sorry, i don't want to be kept around so he can have a comfortable lifestyle.

i'm ranting again!!!

i'm done now. obviously this post makes me realize i have some anger i have to work on letting go.

felt good to type all this anyway.

FL-\\It's good to get all that out, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I hope that this time, if DH really follows through and goes with you to counseling, that he will learn something too. It does take two to tango....but if nothing else, if he won't show you some effort to move forward, you can learn to meet some of your needs yourself. You sound like so many women, trying to "be all" and "do all" for everyone(except their own selves!), and it just isn't possible. Been there, done that, didn't work! When meeting someone elses's needs begins to cause resentment, you know it's time to step back. Don't forget, with the Giver and Taker, there has to be a balance, and it does sound like your Giver has been working overtime.
I wish you the best of everything....I would LOVE to see you happy, that's all I want, you deserve it!

Hugs,

NOW

Well, if your family isn't as big a problem as you say, then your H's attitude is a bit puzzling. You are correct in saying that we all need feedback. If you have made all the efforts you stated above, then I agree you should have gotten something back by now. Unless he is still in the punishment stage. He could simply be doing it all to get back at you for the A and everything. Try sitting down at the table with him when the house is quiet and telling him straight out how you feel. I know you said you have done it before, but appologize again for hurting him and point out some of the changes you have made. Tell him that you feel it would be a good thing for you to start spending some real quality time together. Dr. Harvey recommends as least 15 hours a week. I know that sounds like alot, but I have 3 children under the age of 7 and we manage most days to get it done. Ask him what he needs to make this marriage work for him. If you haven't read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs then I would strongly recommend them. Bottom line is, if you can't get him to help you save your marriage, then you are right in being worried. No one should be kept around for an ATM. Wish we had a fix all for you. I know that you said you have talked till you are blue in the face, but try again. Don't blame him for anything...if you haven't read about the love busters, I would do that before you talk to him. Just make the conversation another way you are trying to work on things with him. But try to listen to the message behind the words he will use. I still feel it isn't time to give up on him or your marriage, but in no way should you ever settle. Keep working at it.....

just wanted to say hi. i'm feeling more postitive today so i'm going to roll with it and enjoy the day.

DH did being up counseling again yesterday, just to reassure me that he will not forget or back peddle this time. he says he will find the counsoler.

so, i'm going to focus on relaxing and eating well and finding some nice things to do for him today.

be back on monday.

thanks to all for talking with me this past week.