the passive aggressive male.

My FWH just recently admitted that he is P/A. I am finding the dynamic between us, the Boomerang, if you will, to be very frustrating.

In the past, I have perpetuated this behavior by being accepting of it. After we had our son, it became intolerable, and to some extent, I fell into that boomerang.

I want out of that cycle. How have you, do you do it? I find that MY reaction to his behavior is hurting ME, and need to find better ways to communicate with him. I read the link in your sig line (thank you so much for that). It's easy to read, but very difficult to practice.

Anything that you can add to this discussion would be so helpful, as you are currently married to a P/A male, and have more experience in the sitch. One main question, how do you keep from throwing your hands up and walking away?Thanks,

silentlucidity

I'd also like advice on how to deal w/ a passive/aggressive H. It's soooo frustrating. I'm at a point where I try to have as little to do w/ him as possible, but sometimes it can't be avoided.

sl77, and this is a shame, to avoid your husband, don't you think? The alternative is to learn how to deal with a P/A individual. I try to have as much to do with my FWH as I can, but he's not so receptive of nearly anything. He is not only in withdrawal from OP, he is withdrawing from our M. Whenever I ask a question, or have a concern or express frustration, he comes back with "I'm working on myself". He never cites examples of how, just that he is.

I use MB boards and will talk to Jennifer C. I may consider IC sooner than later, just to learn how to deal with my anger and stress. Some of it stems from dealing with this sitch, some from dealing with my FWH, some from dealing with my 5 y.o. son.

I am frustrated. It's not because I can do no RIGHT by him, but that no matter what I do, there is no positive reaction/action. There is either a lack of reaction (physically, emotionally, etc. ) or he withdraw's (no action), OR turns to me and tells me to question myself. He is right about me questioning myself, and I do.

I've ordered books about codependency, and am going to research what I can do, and implement where I can. I will do what *I* can. That is why I posted this, to see what I can do to help myself, to work with what I have, not what I wish I had.

I have to avoid him for my sanity. I'm giving him separation papers this weekend. He's a serial cheater that has blamed everything on me. We don't even live in the same state anymore. He has no problem living 7 hours away from his kids. They interfere too much w/ the single life he's trying to live. I've had 15 years of him and that's been more than enough. He's chosen to see me as the enemy that has ruined his life. Every thing I do or say is somehow twisted to keep that lie going. Even w/ little things. Like if he said he wanted to go out for dinner, the next day he would tell his co-workers that I'm so lazy I never cook. The lies are what get me most.

What's sad is that I know I'm so angry because I loved my H, honestly, faithfully, adoringly for our whole marriage. I treated him w/ love and respect. I would have happily spent the rest of my life making him the happiest man in the world. And I got the opposite in return. He lived a double life, and I have to stay away from him because to do otherwise is just too painful.

Hi, S/L - sure, you bet we can talk!

I'm glad you took the time to read that link. It's long, but there is a lot of good stuff there. I will repost some things for you that I've saved and that might be helpful.

If you want to post examples of certain things that happen, I will try to give some more specific ideas of what you can do.

Remember - practically every WS employs P/A behaviour while in an active affair, but some people ALSO use it just as their normal way of managing life (especially managing their spouse) and it does not go away once the affair is over.

Thanks for asking
Mulan


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The Definition of Passive/Aggressive Behavior by Mulan:

P/A behaviour is using PASSIVE and seemingly harmless actions in a deliberately AGGRESSIVE manner to control, manipulate, or just plain hurt someone else.

If you ask them to DO something and they seem to make a point of NOT doing it - forgetting, dragging their feet, making excuses, etc. -

If you ask them NOT to do something and they seem to make a point of DOING it - it's a coincidence, you don't understand, I didn't do it to hurt you -

That's Passive/Aggressive behaviour.

People do this for several reasons:

1) 1) They have an extreme aversion to being controlled. They believe they will be consumed if they become a partner to someone, so they control you before you can "control" them.

2) To do as they please and avoid the consequences.

3) All of the above.

Practically everybody in an affair employs P/A behaviour, but some are a lot worse than others and keep it up throughout the relationship. It's the same way that some people might have a glass of wine at dinner but others become full-blown falling-down drunks.

Recognizing this behavior is the first step to sanity and personal recovery. This stuff will leave you stark screaming crazy if you don't understand what it is (BT, DT, GTTS).

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How I Dealt With A Passive/Aggressive Spouse by Mulan

I spent six years on MB and got nowhere until I understood what I was really dealing with. Then things changed almost overnight. The MB principles could not and did not work until the passive/aggressive behavior was addressed, and THEN they could work.

My #1 EN is honesty and openness. He is P/A. How do ya think THAT was working?!

This is what I said to WH once I understood that the real problem in our relationship was the P/A behavior and his belief that I was trying to "control" him:

First, I truly and seriously acknowledged that he really did feel "controlled" when I wanted to use POJA. He would snarl, "That feels like control!" I said, "I know it does. I know that's how it makes you feel. (NO SARCASM! I REALLY MEANT THIS!) And I also know that there is nothing I can say that will change your mind on that. I can only show you how POJA works by trying it on some things. If you want to try it, you can let me know."

Second, I truly and seriously acknowledged that I did NOT want to control him in any way. I wanted a WILLING partner, not a child to control or an animal on a leash. And if he did not want to be a willing partner to me, the last thing I wanted was to keep on pushing to be a partner to me, since I really did NOT want to control him.

Therefore, I would no longer expect to go anywhere or do anything at HIS events - you know, things he plans or wants to do - because that obviously made him feel stuck with me and obligated to bring me along (and therefore controlled.) If he wanted to keep on going to movies and ball games and on trips without me, that was fine, because I really did NOT want to control him this way and I would MUCH rather find something else to do without him. (AND I MEANT THIS).

Furthermore, I would no longer expect him to show up at MY events, either. (I am a novelist and sometimes go to book signings, conferences, conventions, etc. He was always invited and I wanted him there, but at the last one he dragged his butt to the event and behaved so horribly to me that I swore I'd never invite him again.) I told him I'd learned my lesson from that particular event. If my inviting him made him feel "controlled," in that he felt obligated to show up or I'd be upset, then I did NOT want him to even consider going. I'd go alone and have a perfectly fine time without him. (AND I MEANT THIS.)

I cannot tell you what a difference this has made. We are going to Disneyland next week, just the two of us.

The weekend after that, I have another conference where I am doing a writers' workshop and speaking on several panels as well as going to the parties Saturday night. I simply told him when it was and that I would be at such-and-such hotel all day Saturday and Sunday (staying in a room I paid for on Saturday night.) I said nothing at all about him going, just politely informed him that that's where I would be if anyone needed to get hold of me. And I really did not expect him to go. If he hadn't, I fully intended to go alone and enjoy the event and just let him do what he wanted - and maybe wonder about what I was doing! But he has insisted on coming along, wants to know what he should wear, etc.

The difference is like day and night. And it happened when I just suddenly and completely dropped the reins and let the horse run off if it wanted to. But guess what! The critter ran for a bit, and then circled around and came right back home.

You can do the same. There are no guarantees that it will work. It relies on the fact that you ARE willing to walk away from the marriage if he cannot and will not stop the P/A behavior. But he can't push on you if you aren't pushing on him - and THAT is what makes all the difference.

I was not able to walk away before I understood P/A behaviour. But I could now, since I DO understand it. And boy has THAT ever made a difference.

Here's the tough love part. Your H is right. You ARE trying to control him. You ARE still trying to push and pressure him into being an honest non-P/A man. And that will NEVER, EVER, work.

Try doing what I did - try telling your H that you DON'T want to control him and if that's how your actions make him feel (and they do!), then you will STOP ALL OF THEM RIGHT NOW. Thank him for letting you know, since you really did not understand this before (and you didn't). (Yes, I said that too, and I meant it!!!)

Then dress up nice, get your purse and go out alone for a while. Go out shopping or to a movie or whatever. You will be amazed at what this approach can do.

You have absolutely nothing to lose by doing this and absolutely everything to gain, even if it's just gaining back your own life.

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One more post on dealing with a Passive/Aggressive spouse by Mulan:

I want to emphasize that it is the simple act of Calling Them On Their Behaviour **in itself** that is so effective.

"Calling Them" just means that you look them straight in the eye and calmly tell them that you KNOW their actions are deliberate and ARE meant to keep you off-balance and out of the way so the P/A can do what they please. You don't buy excuses or bend yourself into a pretzel trying to make sense out of nonsense anymore.

To put it bluntly, you start calling "bullsh*t" on their P/A behaviour.

Again, here's an example:

Picture somebody sneaking around in the dark and stealing your stuff. You can't see them and you can't prove it, but you KNOW damn well they're stealing your stuff even though they vehemently proclaim their innocence and insist you're crazy to think they're stealing your stuff.

You spend ages trying to talk them out of stealing your stuff and telling them how much it hurts you when they steal your stuff, but this makes no difference and they go right on stealing your stuff.

So, you try a different tactic:

The next time you feel sure they're stealing your stuff, you turn a glaring spotlight on them and get on a bullhorn saying, "YOU ARE STEALING MY STUFF. I KNOW YOU ARE BECAUSE I CAN SEE YOU DOING IT AND I AM NOT BLIND. THIS IS RUINING OUR RELATIONSHIP AND WE WILL NEVER HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP AS LONG AS YOU CONTINUE STEALING MY STUFF. HAVE A NICE DAY."

Then you GO AWAY and leave them standing there in the glaring spotlight holding your bag of stolen stuff, with nobody to blame or argue with but themselves.

You don't stand there and wait for them to apologize, or agree with you, or make amends, or anything else. You GO AWAY AND LEAVE THEM THERE HOLDING THE BAG ALL ALONE.

That's it. That's all. For 99.999 % of people, just confronting them under that glaring spotlight IS enough to make them stop - believe it or not! And for the .001% who won't, well, you would never have been attracted to one of those in the first place.

It's the confrontations **in and of themselves** that are effective. That's it. That's all you have to do. The confrontation is an enormous boundary in itself, as long as you are consistent about it and refuse to be talked out believing your own perceptions any longer.

Here's something else I found:

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What's Up with the Passive Aggressive Man?
Recognizing Emotional Manipulation
By Cathy Meyer

The man with passive aggressive behavior has to have someone to be the object of his covert hostility. He needs a woman whose expectations and demands he can resist as he plays out the dance he learned from in childhood.

He can never be angry or show anger but he will stick it to her in under-handed ways. He chooses a woman who will agree to be on the receiving end of his disowned anger.

She, of course, has no idea she has agreed to this until it is too late to turn back. He will resist giving her what she wants and needs which will set up a pattern of frustration in her and she will end up expressing the anger that he is unable to.

The biggest frustration in being with a passive aggressive man is that he never follows through on agreements and promises he has made. He will dodge responsibility for anything in the relationship while, at the same time make it look as if he is pulling his own weight and is a very loving partner.

The sad thing is, a woman can be made to believe that she is loved and adored by a man who is completely unable to form an emotional connection with anyone.

He ignores problems in the relationship, sees things through his own skewed sense of reality and if forced to deal with the problems will completely withdraw from the relationship.

He will deny evidence of wrong doing, distort what you know to be real to fit his own agenda, minimize or lie so that his version of what is real seems more logical.

He communicates in a vague way in an attempt to sandbag his partner.

He is inconsistent and ambiguous.

He will say one thing and do another and then deny ever saying the first thing.

He doesn't communicate his needs and wishes in a clear way, expecting his partner to read his mind and meet his needs. After all, if she truly loved him she would just naturally know what he needs wouldn't she?

He will always withhold information about how he feels or what he has been up to and you can bet he has a hidden agenda for doing so.

He has a fragile ego and can't take the slightest criticism. He will turn it back around on his partner and attempt to make her look like the person at fault.

If you confront him about his behavior he will sulk and use silence or walk completely away leaving you to deal with the problem alone.

Don't ever expect him to live up to his promises, obligations and responsibilities as far as the relationship or you are concerned.

Watch out, though, if he thinks you have done something to him though. He will dole out punishment that outweighs the crime and you will feel as if you have been hit in the heart by a 2 x 4.

He will become excessive in his need to get back at you and can obsess on it until he feels that the person who has done him wrong has been dealt with properly.

He has a genuine desire to connect with you emotionally but his fear of just such a connection causes him to be obstructive and engage in self-defeating habits. He will be very covert in his actions and it will only move him further and further from his desired relationship with his partner.

A passive aggressive man will pull the rug out from under your life and as you lay with your head spinning he will deny any accusations of anger you make toward him and turn them all back on you.

He is a genius when it comes to appearing innocent and only having good intentions and he does this in an attempt to have you believe that he is only acting with your best interest in mind.

He will NEVER admit to any wrongdoing. He will make subtle ambiguous statements then deny altogether any hurtful intent.

He will also DO little subtle hurtful things like being late for a dinner date or forgetting your birthday, then deny any harmful intent, accusing the other person of being overly sensitive.

His game is to "get back" at someone he feels has wronged him by refusing any kind of cooperation with them. He will feign ignorance when confronted and will appear to be very hurt that you could think he would purposefully or intentionally do anything hurtful.

The passive aggressive man never looks internally and examines his role in a problem. He has to externalize it and blame others for having shortcomings. He lives in denial of his self-destructive behavior, the consequences of that behavior and the choices he has made that causes all his pain.

He will turn his focus toward others and all the wrongs they have done to him. He feels immense anger and aggression because, in his mind, everyone else is crazy. All this aggression and anger is expressed indirectly and covertly and at the great emotional harm of anyone attached to him.

The passive aggressive man shows little consideration of the time, feelings, standards or needs of others unless it fits his agenda to do so. To him you are an object to be used as a means to an end. Your only value is to feed his own emotional needs.

He will stand in the way of you getting what you need and will then ignore or minimize your hurt feelings and anger.

He has no idea how to compromise in a relationship and when faced with the demand that he make a compromise you will get the silent treatment.

He is confused and can't understand why women get so angry with him. He feels others demand too much of him, so he resists in overt and subtle ways and feels deprived if he must give in to others.

The man who copes with conflict by not being there has a strong conflict over becoming dependent on someone else. He wants the attention and attachment that comes with loving someone but fears losing his independence to his partner.

He absolutely can't be with anyone emotionally. He wants love and attention but avoids it because he fears it will destroy him.

The man with passive aggressive actions is a master manipulator when it comes to getting his partner to doubt herself and feel guilty for questioning or confronting him. He very talented at getting her to fall for his apologies, accept his excuses and focus on his charm rather than deal with the issue directly.

He blames her for creating the problem and keeps her focused on her anger rather than his own ineptitude.

He keeps his partner held hostage by the hope that he will change. He may give into her and clean up his act after a blowup for several weeks, but then it's back to business as usual.

Is there hope for change when dealing with a passive aggressive man? Only if he is willing to acknowledge his own shortcomings and contributions to the problems that exist in his relationships. Facing old wounds and looking internally instead of externally to find the cause of problems in his life will help him form deeper emotional bonds with a higher sense of emotional safety for himself.

P/A people HATE the Policy of Joint Agreement but *love* Win/Lose, because they can always find a way to Win. See what you think about this:

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Win/Lose vs. POJA by Mulan

There are two methods that couples can use to resolve the questions and differences of opinion and disagreements that come up in every marriage. These are:

1) Win-Lose
2) Policy of Joint Agreement

The vast, vast majority of couples use the Win-Lose method, mostly because they grew up seeing their parents use it on each other and it's all they know.

With Win-Lose, every situation will have a Winner and a Loser.

With Win-Lose, your only goal is to avoid being the Loser.

With Win-Lose, the outcome of "hurting my partner" IS an acceptable outcome.

Win-Lose is also the reason why Marriage is largely a synonym for Misery.

It's why every wife is a B*tch and every husband is a B*stard.

These partners are not trying to help or protect each other. They are just trying to Win.

That's why telling your Win-Lose partner that "I feel hurt when you . . . " has absolutely NO effect. They know you're hurt. They're okay with it. That's what happens with Win-Lose. What's your point?

But the trouble is – when you have to be the Loser in a relationship, and you have to watch how perfectly happy and content your spouse is with you being the Loser, all it does is build more and more and more pain and suffering and resentment.

You cannot have anything resembling a healthy relationship when one or both members are seething with hurt and resentment.

POJA is very different.

POJA presumes that hurting your partner is NOT an acceptable outcome.

This sound positive and good, doesn't it? But people who are accustomed to Win-Lose, and who like it very much because they nearly always Win, hate the POJA with every fiber of their being.

Why do they hate it? Because a Winner is extremely resistant to giving up the imbalance of power in the relationship.

They're not about to become Losers and they are fully convinced that there is no other way except Win-Lose to deal with a spouse and "everybody knows this".

Unfortunately, if they cannot give up their addiction to the power and control that Win-Lose allows them, the marriage is almost always doomed – doomed to divorce or at the very least doomed to unending misery.

That's because it's impossible for your partner to love or respect you when they know full well you WILL happily hurt them if it means YOU get to Win.

POJA protects both partners and allows both of them to Win.

But sadly, many, many people angrily dismiss this idea as "unrealistic". Instead, they go through life convinced that the only way to deal with a spouse is through Win-Lose and the only goal of a relationship is to make sure that I Win and Spouse Loses.

This does nothing but keeps the marriage counselors and divorce lawyers making money by the bucket.

Win/Lose or POJA. Pick one. It's your marriage.

Silent:

I don't think your H has it in him to be truly P/A.

Observing's H may have it, heck Observing might.

But I do not really think that your H is employing the consious thought patterns to be a P/A person.

Mimi has my info, Maybe your H just needs to talk to someone who has been in his shoes.

Steve Harley may be spooky to him. And your H's buddies certainly can't talk to him about it.

Learning about the P/A person can help alot in R's, but be careful with it.

LG

Wow, Mulan, thank you for sharing. I really mean that.

Yes, PWC is P/A. I will have to think of how to describe events, as I am still a bit attached and clouded right now. I am looking into books about codependency and letting go. BR and Mimi have been very helpful in showing me the error of my ways, and I am working on it diligently. I do slide, and have more often than I care to admit.

I am finally getting MY part in all of this mess, and need to extract myself from that sitch.




Well, I can certainly tell you this, brooding and self pity surely don't change anything. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

THIS is what I am working toward right now. I truly have tried to control the uncontrollable, and must stop. I'm 75% there. You have helped me today, so much. I have felt so responsible for every part of recovery, not giving him his part to deal with, and wallowing in it. I'm growing frustrtated in that, and need to stop. *I* need to grow up and change.

There is so much more information on that site that you point to with the boomerang relationship, in dealing with kids and spouses, anger management, so much. It's a good site, not just for those dealing with P/A, but relationships in general.