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WH called me today to tell me that he has ended his relationship with OW. I have been fantasizing about this day for almost a year. He told me that OWH came to his parent's house and asked to talk to him "man to man" about his relationship with OW. OWH supposedly told WH that he really liked him and thought they would be friends if "all this had not happened" (I was good and didn't pipe in with any snide comments at this point). OWH went on to ask that WH be a "friend" and allow him the opportunity to work things out with his wife so he could put his family back together. He asked him for his kids sake. WH supposedly felt so guilty for breaking up OWH's family that he called OW and ended it 15 minutes later.

After he told me this I just sat there on the phone. I finally said "Am I supposed to be impressed that you, after 9 months, let the words of a complete stranger sway you back on the path to doing the right thing?" "When the words of your own wife and daughter and the sight of their pain and suffering did nothing to influence you?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> WH sputtered back "Well I realize it is probably too late for us to patch things back together now". Probably? I thought this day would feel a lot better than this. I feel awful. All my suffering has been so a selfish self-involved sahm could make her life a little more interesting temporarily.

I really don't understand WH's motives for telling me this at this point. Did he think that if he told me that they ended their relationship that I would beg him to come home? Or was he trying to butter me up for our final mediaiton hearing tomorrow? Our divorce could be final in less than a month. What a price to pay. WH has ruined his life, his career, put himself in horrible debt, possibly caused psychological damage to our daughter, and almost drove me to an emotional breakdown, for an OW that "loved" him but wouldn't leave her husband for him. Being right sure doesn't feel as good as I thought it would. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by lieslies; 09/26/07 01:51 PM.

Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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Lies,

Well, I think you now know why they say recovery is the hardest part. If you want your M, you have to next nurse him through the withdrawl. I think that all BS's dream of the day when they come back on their knees, beg for forgiveness, say they love us, and oh what a mistake they made. Unfortunately, I guess it doesn't always happen that way.

I'm sorry that you are going through this....


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I'm sorry that you are having to deal with this too...

((((LL))))

I hear more lies TBH...WH called me once and said that he had ended C...it was a lie...talked about how hard it was and that he was having some grown up feeling, blah, blah, blah...

I just hope that you are sticking with reality and not trying to dive into fantasy of how it COULD be...it is what it is...

It's actions and not words...lip service is old...know what I mean?

You're going to do great...I know you may feel woren out right now, but you're almost there!!!

Keep up the good work!!!


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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S4B,

The reality of what WH has done was brought back and waved in my face again yesterday. I know his behavior is just more of the same, after 9 months still no real progress. I will never get an "I'm sorry". The reality is that he ended his infidelity for many reasons and none had anything to do with me or DD2. We are still last in his life. He thinks that ending things with OW for OWH and his children makes him a "good guy". In my eyes he will always be the selfish child who I almost let ruin my life.

You are probably right about him and OW. This NC will probably not stick. By the time that I find out that they are back together again, I will be divorced! I have a court hearing in 3 hours. Wish me luck.


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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lieslies, i agree with Strivin, the NC won't stick. Your H was likely caught off guard by the visit and just didn't have the nads to tell the OWH that he would continue his affair. In the end, he will do what pleases himself, no matter the cost, because he and the OW are pure self will run riot. They long forgot about anyone else in the pursuit of their passions. Believe me, your H doesn't give a rats [censored] about the OWH's kids anymore than he does his own kids.

You are doing the right thing, lieslies. Go forward and stick with your plan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Good Morning, I look forward to hear what happens today...Best of luck, but you really don't need luck...you have your ducks in a row and God on your side...

You are doing great!! I know it's hard but you have really stepped up to the plate and I applaude you for your strenght, courage, and intregity!!!

You'll BE JUST FINE!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


A loving heart is the beginning of all knowledge.
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I just wanted to stop in and tell you I am saying some prayers for your court appearance today!

Hang in there! You are going to be just fine!


BS (me)
ExWS -Drac
DD 9
DSS 15
D Day 11/06
Divorced 10/01/07

"You Can't Fix Stupid" - My Mom
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I made it! It is over. We reached a final settlement today. WH gave me the house to settle the divorce today. I agreed to lower his child support by $25 a month to compensate him slightly for the house equity and I only have to give him a few items he requested from the house. His attorney threatened to try and make me pay his attorney's fees if I didn't agree to the offer. My attorney and I had a good laugh about that. Missouri is a marital misconduct state, if we had gone to trial he didn't have a prayer of getting what he was asking for. I may have had to give him half of the house equity if it did go to trial though. I was feeling pretty rotten afterwards. My attorney must have thought I was crazy. I ran out there in a hurry so no one would see me cry. Lol I am feeling okay about it now. I think my sister and SIL are planning a divorce party for me. That should be fun even if I am not jump up and down happy about the divorce yet. Everything has finished up smoothly, even though we started out in chaos. I have that to be grateful for. God has really blessed me in the end.

Now if WH can only stay away from OW....... I guess now it is not my place to care anymore. I will have to work on that. Thanks for all your support and encouragement! You have all helped me so much. I will be eternally grateful.

LL


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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That's awesome. I'm glad you are doing so well through all of this.

In the saddest moments of being a BS, we think we will never be happy again. Once you start seeing a new light at the end of the tunnel it really feels great.

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lieslies,

Any day that a M ends is a somewhat sad day, even if it was a bad, incompatible M. That being said, though, I think this may be best for you right now to protect you from the sort of abuse you were experiencing. From this day forward, you have the opportunity to be free of that trauma and daily drama, whereas xWH has to wallow in it. Yes, for his sake I hope he also climbs up out of the wallow at some point in his life...but for now you can concentrate on you and your DD and live a happy, mature, healthy life!

Congratulations on gaining the freedom from the abuse!




~~CJ

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LL,

""Now if WH can only stay away from OW.......

I beg your pardon??!!

Don't you notice that lightness in your step? How your shoulders are straight and your chin is up?

That is the weight of the millstone that was your cheating H lifted from your back. That constant knife in your heart should not be there anymore. You are free from his drama, so you MUST WORK ON THAT KNOWLEDGE and work on that hard.

The air is so pure up there on the high road, is it not?<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Good luck to you.

kirk


CORDUROY PILLOWS ARE MAKING HEADLINES!!
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My very best wishes to you and your dear daughter. I look at your dates in your signature and remember your story. Everything was very intense in the information you shared and it all happened in a very brief period of time. I am amazed at your insight and your responses to the situation. You are truly amazing. My very best.


Lake
BW-53
FWH-54
H had EA 3 weeks 06
Married 1977

N C 4-10-06
3 DSs
In Recovery
lake53 #1931080 09/06/07 04:05 PM
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WH has really been pushing me this past week. He has completely disregarded the RO and is calling me frequently. He has approached me several times during custody exchanges and asked that we try and be friends and has said that he "misses me now". He even sent me one of those politically incorrect office joke emails. I have tried to explain to him that I have no interest in being "friends". I feel that he is just looking for me to forget everything that happened now that he has supposedly ended his relationship with OW. I have been struggling with how to deal with this situation and I have been dodging his phone calls for several days. It has reopened the wound I was dealt by his affairs that was starting to heal. I wrote a letter that I haven't sent to him to try and work out how I felt about his request for friendship. I just thought I would post it and see what you all thought of it. I will most likely not send it. How can I make someone who is completely unremorseful for the pain he has caused me understand that friendship is based on trust and affection for another person? I can feel neither for him at this point. IMHO, this is just another attempt by him to try and wipe the slate clean as if nothing happened without making any real attempt at repairing the damage he did.

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WH,

You have said more than once recently that you feel I should "forgive you" and forget what happened so we can be "friends". I told you that I do not feel that is possible and for several reasons. I would like you to read this post that I found on a marriage counseling site that I feel conveys my feelings about this. To truly be forgiven requires that the offender feel remorseful about their behavior and try to make restitution for their actions. I have not seen that from you. You are not remorseful for your affairs. You feel perfectly justified in your actions (i.e. your affairs)based upon the problems we were experiencing in our marriage. In reality there was no justification for what you did. If you were so unhappy with our marriage then why not divorce? That would seem the simplest of solutions.

The reality of the situation is that you had no intention of divorcing me. Despite your claims of "despair and unhappiness" in our marriage, you were perfectly content to remain married to me. The only reason we are divorcing is because your web of pathetic lies had finally caught up with you. The truth of what you were doing was becoming clear to me and everyone else and you couldn't bear being the bad guy in the situation. Thus we are divorcing because we "couldn't get along" and not because you were screwing a long string of other women that started around the time I got pregnant with DD2. You try to overlook your affairs as the cause for our marriage ending, but that is indeed the cause. We did have problems with communication. However, instead of dealing with our problems you chose to forget about them in the bed of a series of skanky married women.

Life is full of choices. For some reason you felt completely justified in behaving the way you did. You completely disregarded how I would feel about it and acted purely on selfish wants and needs. How could I ever be "friends" with someone like that? What you really mean is "Hey, couldn't you just forget about all the horrible things I have done so I can feel better about what I did?" When your requests are backed by the demonstration of remorse as detailed in the article below, then I will be able to forgive you. Up until now your requests have focused soley on making you feel better and forgetting my pain.


Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?
Letter #1


Introduction: Forgiveness is a subject that comes up quite a bit in marriage. Offenses are common, and the offender usually wants to be forgiven. But the offended is usually reluctant to forgive, particularly if the offender hasn't learned anything from the ordeal.

But if forgiveness is difficult, forgetting can be downright impossible for many spouses. How can people be expected to forget some of the most painful experiences of their lives?

I approach the subject of forgiveness from the perspective of someone (me) who believes in forgiveness, but also believes that marriage should be fair. Since, in many cases, forgiveness is unfair, what should be done? As you will see in my responses to the three letters I've chosen, I support just compensation for some marital offenses, so I don't always recommend forgiveness. It should be an encouragement to those of you who have been feeling guilty about being unable to forgive and forget. But, at the same time, it should also encourage offenders, because the compensation I propose will earn you a terrific marriage, and it won't hurt at all.




Dear Dr. Harley,
My husband had an affair a year ago, and since then I have not felt the same toward him because of his betrayal and my loss of trust. I want to move forward in this relationship, but I'm having a very difficult time forgiving him. I believe, as you do, that honesty is essential in marriage, but my husband does not. As a result, he continues to lie to me about his behavior, and I continue to discover "bombs" that further explain the absolute wretchedness of his affair.

I'd prefer for him to be honest and get it over with so I can begin the healing process, but after a year of emotional turmoil, my focus has changed somewhat. My inability to forgive is eating me up and I need to get better. I've read your columns and I don't find specific advice on how to forgive. Are there steps I can do on my own to resolve this terrible pain?

J.J.



Dear J.J.,
Forgiveness is something I believe in with all my heart. I forgive others and have been forgiven many times. God wants us all to be forgiving just as he has forgiven us.

And, as you have noticed, when you don't forgive someone, it can "eat you up." It's not healthy to keep resentment bottled up inside of you.

The vast majority of couples I counsel who have been through the horror of an affair, have better marriages after the affair than before. It's because the affair jolts them into recognizing the need for building an affair-proof marriage, and the safety precautions they use help them create compatibility and love. But has the offended spouse forgiven the offender in these marriages? Yes and no.

First let's try to understand what forgiveness is. One illustration is telling a person who owes you $10,000 that he won't have to pay you back. You "forgive" the debt. In other words, forgiveness is eliminating a obligation of some sort.

But we generally don't think of money when we think of the need of forgiveness. Instead, we are concerned about inconsiderate behavior that has caused us great pain and suffering -- the pain that an affair causes, for example. Forgiveness in these situations means thinking about the person as if the offense never took place. That is extremely difficult to do. The offended spouse usually thinks, what can he or she do to make it up to me. How can I be compensated for the pain I've suffered.

To make matters worse, whenever a wayward spouse sees me for counseling there is rarely regret and rarely a willingness to compensate the offended spouse. They usually ask to be forgiven, but that doesn't mean he or she is deeply remorseful. It usually means that he or she doesn't want us to bring up the subject anymore, or require a change in behavior. In other words, the wayward spouse wants the pain suffered by the offended spouse to be ignored or forgotten. Like a $10,000 debt, they want it forgiven, and then they want to borrow another $10,000.

I'm in favor of forgiveness in many situations, but this isn't one of them. In the case of infidelity, compensation not only helps the offended spouse overcome the resentment he or she harbors, but the right kind of compensation helps restore the relationship and prevents the painful act from being repeated.

In most cases, an offended spouse would be stupid to forgive the wayward spouse without just compensation. It's like forgiving a friend of the $10,000 he owes you, when it's actually in the friend's best interest to pay you in full because it would teach him how to be more responsible with money.

As it turns out, in every affair there is a way to adequately compensate the offended spouse that is good for the offender and good for the marriage. At first, the offended spouse may not want to be compensated. He or she may try to get as far away from the offender as possible to avoid further pain. But if the spouse asks for forgiveness along with a willingness to compensate, the offended spouse is usually willing to entertain the proposal.

So let's talk about just compensation. What could the offending spouse possibly do to compensate for an affair? After all, it's probably the most painful experiences anyone could ever put his or her spouse through.

The first act of compensation to you from your husband should be to end his relationship with the other woman once and for all. He should never see or talk to her again, even if it means leaving his job or moving your family to another state. The reason should be obvious, but in case there's some confusion, he should be reminded that every contact he will ever have with this woman will be like a knife in your heart. He has already caused you to suffer unbearable pain, and any further contact with his ex-lover would keep you suffering. In your case, the affair is probably over, but has your husband taken precautions to never see or talk to his ex-lover again?

And then he should put extraordinary precautions in place to guarantee that another affair will not take it's place. Has he considered the circumstances that led to his affair? Intoxication, business trips that separate you overnight, close friendships with those of the opposite sex, recreational relationships that do not include you, and so forth, should be subject to scrutiny. What was it that made him vulnerable? Whatever it was, he should take extraordinary precautions to avoid it in the future. It's part of just compensation for the suffering he's caused you to bear.

While there's no excuse for an affair, and if your husband takes the extraordinary precautions I've suggested he will never have another affair again, there are "reasons" that people have affairs. And those reasons must also be addressed when considering just compensation.

I've made the point in His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-proof Marriage that spouses usually have affairs because their emotional needs are not being met in the marriage. The way to affair-proof a marriage is for couples to meet each other's most important emotional needs. So whenever one spouse has an affair, the other should try to learn to meet the unmet needs that led to the affair.

That's a tough sell to someone who has just learned about their spouse's unfaithfulness. I'd sooner kill him than meet his needs, is the most common reaction. Besides, we haven't talked about compensation at all. Instead, we've gone and blamed the offended spouse for the affair!

But in most cases, neither spouse is meeting the other's needs prior to the affair. The reason that there were not two affairs is often a lack of opportunity for the offended spouse. And sometimes when there is that opportunity, there actually are two affairs.

The point I'm making is that in most cases both the offending and offended spouses' emotional needs were not being met by each other prior to the affair. One compensation for the affair, therefore, is for the offending spouse to learn to meet the emotional needs of the offended spouse. But if I can also motivate the offended spouse to do something that should have been done all along, meet the offending spouse's emotional needs, the arrangement seems more fair to the offending spouse. There is not only compensation for the affair, but the one of the conditions that may have created the affair (unmet emotional needs) are removed. The marriage is restored and affair-proofed.

But forgiveness is still necessary even after compensation is made. That's because there's really nothing that can completely compensate for the betrayal of infidelity. Even after compensation is made, there is still the need to forgive. But it's sure makes a lot more sense after the unfaithful spouse makes an effort to restore the relationship.

Using this meaning of forgiveness, the person asking to be forgiven must first demonstrate an awareness of how inconsiderate the act was and how much pain his or her spouse was made to suffer. Second, he or she must express some plan to assure the forgiver that steps have been taken to avoid the painful act in the future. Extraordinary precautions to never see or talk to the former lover, and to avoid circumstances that might ignite a new affair should be part of the plan for recovery. And another part of the plan is for both spouses to meet each other's unmet emotional needs that may have given the unfaithful spouse a "reason" to be unfaithful. As it turns out, it's the successful completion of that plan that's the compensation that leads to "forgiveness." Learning to meet each other's most important emotional needs is the plan that usually does the trick.

But, unlike the repayment of $10,000, where payee suffers a $10,000 loss in order to provide compensation, in marriage, the compensation does not lead to a loss. Your husband should guarantee that he will never have another affair, and learn how to meet your important emotional needs, as you should learn to meet his. I'd say that's just compensation, wouldn't you? And yet, the price your husband pays will make him a much better and a much happier person.

There's another important point that I should make regarding forgiveness. When you discovered your husband's affair, you learned two things about him that you had not known before. You learned that he would make decisions that did not take your feelings into account (having the affair), and you learned that he would lie about his behavior to cover it up. That discovery was undoubtedly very disillusioning to you. Who wants to be married to a man who is inconsiderate and dishonest?

Apparently, he has not yet agreed to these important issues, and that has a great deal to do with your reluctance to forgive him. I'm sure you will not find forgiveness in your heart until he agrees to be honest with you, and to take your feelings into account in the future.

But forgiveness will be much easier after you are convinced that your husband considers your feelings whenever he makes a decision, is completely honest with you about everything, and is meeting your important emotional needs. For you to be convinced, he must not only agree to these changes, but he must also demonstrate his commitment by living them for a while. Forgiveness may still require a bit of generosity on your part, but if he makes these changes, I think you'll be able to handle it. When that happens, the burden of resentment you are carrying will be lifted.

I know that sending him this will probably be a waste of time. I just wanted him to understand that my refusal of his offer of friendship was not out of spite. Dare I even broach the subject with him? Or is it best to just let it go and rebuff his friendly advances?

LL


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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lieslies,
I read your story and need your input. Although you wanted the WS back did you fight for everything in your D? Did you care about R at that point? If you had do do things over again what would you have done differently or the same? My attorney is struggling with trying to assist me and trying to assist my wants which is the WS back.

hjkl #1931082 09/06/07 07:51 PM
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If he is violating the order of protection, report him. That should be message enough that you are not interested in friendship with a snake.

He is scarey.

Never be in a position where he can do anything to you.

Always have a witness present when exchanging your daughter.


"Your actions are so loud that I can't hear a word you're saying!"

BW M 44 yrs to still-foggy but now-faithful WH. What/how I post=my biz. Report any perceived violations to the Mods.
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I'm not too familiar with your story, did you send him a Plan B letter detailing what he'd have to do for restoration (of relationship - whether that be marriage or friendship)?

I had similar boundary issues with my WH, he was SURE he would never lose me completely, that he had some sort of 'right' to spend time with me even after divorce!

IMHO the things my WXH needs to say and do should be said and done even if I do NOT choose to be his friend. It would just be the decent thing for him to do after all the hurt he caused and he should not expect anything in return for doing the right thing.

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hjkl, message to you on your d/d thread

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How can I make someone who is completely unremorseful for the pain he has caused me understand that friendship is based on trust and affection for another person?

One rule to remember is that you can't. make. him. understand.

I'm sure the letter was cathartic, but it is not likely to give him a lightbulb moment.

If you have an RO against him and want the contact to stop, then use the tool you have at hand.

Given that he doesn't understand, what do you want to do?

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Letter is way too long. His eyes will glaze over. It is also way too nice. Males like your Ex need 2X4, not pats.

Use simple language like to a sixth grader. Use descriptive words like adultery and lies. Try again.

Larry

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IMHO the things my WXH needs to say and do should be said and done even if I do NOT choose to be his friend. It would just be the decent thing for him to do after all the hurt he caused and he should not expect anything in return for doing the right thing.


Thanks meremortal. That is what I was really trying to get at with my letter. Not just that WH should do those things in order to gain "friendship" but also because they are the right thing to do. I know that I can never make him understand that. That is why I did not send the letter. It was more of a venting letter. I did not expect a positive outcome while writing it. That is part of my frustration in our divorce. I feel that I have grown tremendously in the process and WH is still back at the starting gate behaving like a spoiled selfish child. He does not get the new me and probably never will. I still have a really strong desire for WH to change. I need to take a few steps back when those feelings start to creep in and refocus on myself. He will never change because I want him to. Only if he is willing will change happen in his life. I still pray that God will bring him to his knees so that he can realize how far off the path he has gotten. Right now though that is my hope not his.

I am trying to establish limits with him. Right now my dsl connection is down at home and the only way I have to contact him is by phone. A storm fried my modem and I need to replace it.

I feel that he uses these friendly moments as a means to keep me hanging on emotionally. For what purpose I can't imagine. To manipulate me I suppose. Sick. I wonder if he realizes what he is doing? Or is it just an unconscious action on his part? I am doing my best to not get myself tangled up in his web again. Thanks for the support.


Me, BW 33 WH 38 DD3 Married 5/3/02, together since 1998 D-Day 11/6/06, 12/4/06 WH attempted suicide 2/5/07 Plan B 4/16/07, Plan D 4/30/07 Order of protection filed 5/3/07 (irony not lost on me) D final 10/7/07??? My Story Ongoing Saga
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