Hello everyone!
thanks so much for all the advice.
I hope he does tell his wife. I hope they work things out. I am quite sure she knows that things are not working out because he has his own place, they have done a lot of counseling, and about 2 yrs ago she inherited money and asked to put it in a separate account, not the joint one so it would be hers only. I actually understand that partially, but it does look like she is preparing for something. BUT he is not divorcED! so I MUST keep that in mind!!!! Plus are they really justified in not trying to keep it together? I suppose she is, since he developed his EA towards me in July, but he is not justified. So I get the points.... harsh, but I get them!
My plan now is that I am going to florida on labor day weekend with a friend (girl!) and I will try to really put this out of my mind. I am taking quite a few days.
Hopefully, the fog will clear and all my attraction for this person will be in the past. It was the first time I felt that. And it had to be for the wrong person!!!!!
But I must ask myself why it happened and I am working on that. I mean, it had not happened ever before and I do meet many people! Perhaps it is really just my age (38). My therapist does say that at this age one tends to make the point of one's life, and if I feel I am missing something, I might "rush" to get it, the way I was perhaps doing.
Anyway... I'll be off for a while, so thank you all. It's been very helpful (but harsh, but helpful!!! so really a hearted thanks)

(I'll go say bye to the other threads now, since I'm leaving to go to florida soon).

Mmicky,

If he is the one who gave you the above info, then you seriously need to consider they are lies to support his position.

Have a fine vacation in Florida. And take good care.

Jo

My husband told his OW that we were getting a divorce and the divorce would be final in March of 07. What an idiot woman she is, and I am. Everything I just read from you sounds to me like the same B_ll Sh_t my husband told the OW. He never left me nor did we ever get a divorce. She only got hurt and so did I very bad. Dont believe a word he is saying. Call his wife ask her, youll get the truth from her.

You know, I'm going to pipe up here at the risk of getting verbally vomited on by all the ppl on here who are incredibly hostile. Not every situation like this is the same for each couple. I AM the OW and he is going through a divorce but for all the right reasons! This board while here to support reconciliation is also a place to support and acknowledge, divorce does occur!

This story is not unlike my own, but I have no illusions my partner is perfect or did not lie. When someone in a long term marriage wants out, it can be rough going, and sometimes men LIE and sometimes, they do not.

To read the consensus that all men act in such a way really belittles that they feel pain and hurt in their lives. Some of the posts I've read Dr. Laura would pounce on.

My partner was married for 30 years. Outwardly, he thought he was 'proud' of having such a record, wow, a 30 year marriage, while inwardly, he was groaning, alone, and hated who he was with and who he was being with her. Each time he attempted to bring up his displeasure, his needs, they were ignored, discounted.

He knew it was a mistake after he married her, he saw the signs, but at the time, they were in medical school together and he thought he was supposed to 'do the right thing' and protect her reputation. He stayed because he was "mr. nice" while having to beg for sex, while not having sex on his honeymoon, while she made him wait for months thereafter, and in 30 years, (this is the part where I thought he lied) they had intercourse 10 times. He can count them.
She was never interested (It's too early in the morning, its too late at night, my face hurts - that kind of ridiculous BS).
We went to counseling together, to set things straight. He was not lying, he was unhappy, he had been wanting out for 7 years, she would not listen or acknowledge his pain, and is a control freak in addition to being incredibly judgmental and legalistic.

I am going to get in trouble for saying this, but the institution of marriage and that certificate were never met to be more important than the people in the institution.
To be verbally abused, to be criticized, put down, not touched, wears a man down.

When you start focusing on the legalistic issues instead of humanizing marriage, you are going down the wrong path.

At times we go about things the wrong way, but who are you to judge an affair? And who are you to judge if someone seriously wants out of a very messed up marriage and there is so much water under the bridge they do not wish to invest further?

I know too many men who are in this boat, and the women have a holier than thou attitude that gets them in trouble and they lose their marriage.

My .02

You know, there are a lot of foggy people.

"To read the consensus that all men act in such a way really belittles that they feel pain and hurt in their lives. Some of the posts I've read Dr. Laura would pounce on."

I wonder if Dr. Laura would pounce on someone who is an OW?

"He stayed because he was "mr. nice" while having to beg for sex, while not having sex on his honeymoon, while she made him wait for months thereafter, and in 30 years, (this is the part where I thought he lied) they had intercourse 10 times. He can count them.
She was never interested (It's too early in the morning, its too late at night, my face hurts - that kind of ridiculous BS)."

You know this to be true because he told you this or the story was confirmed by is wife too?

It was the first time you felt THAT???

What was THAT?

THAT was the thrill of an affair, because it's WRONG, THAT was more exciting then dating an available single man.

I hope you move on and date ONLY single men and don't feel THAT again.

If it's FIRE you are going to get BURNT. This is fire, and it's NOT going to work. Leave it behind you, this man is absurd and his wife knowing or not doesn't desrve this, please don't do this again to another woman.

Now that you've felt THAT, the FIRE, how about finding a NICE GUY where there's no hot fire, where there's slow burning coals. THAT'S what you date and marry, not the HOT guy.

The thrill's over. Leave it and him in the past. Please.

Oh yeah, the story is the same story every married man has told the other woman forever, oh the POOR guy. No sex, mean wife, the works... I don't buy it for a minute. Likely if you had lunch with his wife you'd be surprised, but dont', just get the heck out of their lives and stop analyzing this. HE's NOT worth it.

Yes, confirmed by the wife. He is filing for divorce on 'constructive abandonment'. He would not be able to file on that if it were not true.

I find it amazing that you feel this way. I do not believe the story is the same story all men 'tell'. This implies all men are liars, their needs, are less important than 'yours', and no, Dr. Laura makes it real clear in her book "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands" that if we don't, another woman 'will'.

Yeah, the poor guy. Suddenly men have no real needs and if they are in a lousy marriage, they need to 'snap out of it'?

I'm sorry but love and affection are genuine real needs, so is sexual desire in men and women.

This is not a board for others to treat me as the proxy OW because of their anger or bitterness in their own situation.

AS I said, we are in counseling, our counselor gets it, gets why he left, gets why she was difficult at best to live with, and the wife has never denied the allegations she spurned his advances. She choose to sleep with a dog who had
separation anxiety instead of in the marriage bed.
You do not stay in a marriage that is completely non-sexual, why would God want you or anyone to do this unless their spouse had a condition incompatible with life in the future?

This country is sexually repressed! ITs why affairs happen in the first place. Some women fear their bodies, touching them, knowing them fully, they are freaked out about nudity, half of them don't have a clue about their own sexuality and believe it all comes 'naturally'.

Look, be mad at your OW in your unique situation, don't judge me. His marriage died a long time ago, the vows were broken years ago by both parties. Dr. Laura suggests women are just as guilty of breaking their vows by NOT having sexual relationships with their husbands as men are supposed to be guilty for having sex with someone other than their wife. Even God is a divorce' and yet we have this unique situation in the states that suggests affairs are the ultimate SIN and unforgivable. The Bible never says we are supposed to stay in an abusive relationship. She was verbally abusive. What is wrong with ppl? Do people not understand that men get hit too? That men get verbally harassed and somehow if that is occurring they are weak and need to get over it? hello?

"The sin of judging is negatively evaluating someone's conduct or spiritual state on the basis of nonbiblical standards or suspected motives." Said more colloquially, to judge others is to decide that they are doing wrong because you think you can guess what is in their heart.

That is what you are doing here, guessing what is in all men's hearts.

I'd also like to respond - I have been married before, for 17 years. It was a bad marriage, and he was abusive. In the end, he took his own life after I found out he had severe issues that stemmed from childhood abuse. I know what marriage is. I did not go for this for the 'fire' and to have honeymoon 'highs', that would have been unrealistic. I put him off for three months, for three months I was his friend - I told him to attend counseling with his wife, I told him to seduce HIS wife, he choose to get counseling and to go with collaborative law to end his marriage.
She convinced him she was willing to change, he tried once to go back and was given a list of rules and there was no welcoming with open arms or even a hint of warmth to begin to build trust with him. I had distanced myself and got out of the picture.

I also choose to disagree with you, I believe the best relationships are when two people are individuals, and come together and move apart to keep the "fire' burning.
There is IMHO absolutely nothing wrong with keeping the fire going. There will always be work and life issues, but if you have a tender place and a soft place to fall with each other and make that a priority, then I say keeping the coals burning is a grand plan.

I would really like some men to chime in here and offer their thoughts.

"Oh yeah, the story is the same story every married man has told the other woman forever, oh the POOR guy. No sex, mean wife, the works... I don't buy it for a minute. Likely if you had lunch with his wife you'd be surprised, but dont', just get the heck out of their lives and stop analyzing this. HE's NOT worth it."


So let me ask. If we were friends, and I told you about the lousy way my husband had treated me, including hitting, pushing, shoving, kicking animals, calling names, trying to control me financially, following me around (and this is from someone who WAS totally monogamous for 17 years) would you suggest its the same sob story all women tell? And tell him I'm not worth it, and you wouldn't buy my story for a minute? That he could be charming only to outsiders but a monster at home?

I'm just trying to open the door to understanding. If we treat OW or OM as enemies, we are not ready yet to work on our own selves and our own problems.

Well is Dr. Laura THE expert? If THIS is what she says I don't agree with the chick at all. If a wife "doesn't meet" her husband's needs then he'll find someone that will? How about the VOWS said at a wedding? Does anyone respect those? All marriages have their ups and downs, and during the downs does a man have a "right" to go get his needs met outside of the marraige. What you are saying is absurd. I was leaving post for whoever started this thread, the woman running around with a marriage man who's obviously a liar. This is a marriage board, the website address is MARRAIGE BUILDERS DOT COM for goodness sake. Of course if someone comes on a marriage site, heads to the divorce section where most people through blood, sweat and tears tried to "fix" their marriages... and posts for goodness sake that they are having an affair with a married man, that they edon't respect marriage, that most people are divorced and it's no big deal not even considering the pain of the wife or what's really the "truth".... COME ON. OF course there are going to be heated responses. Likely this isn't the best place for a single woman to come chat about her affair and lack of RESPECT for someone else's marriage.

Ask anyone that's been married over say twenty or thirty years how HOT the fire is. Isn't it common knowledge that after marriage, and marriage for decades you aren't going to have some HOT fire raging, oh it might come and go here and there, but it's MARRIAGE for goodness sake, the same thing over and over again. Older couples will tell you its slow coals, a little heat here and there, but the EXCITEMENT this chick is talking about is the excitement of an AFFAIR, of wanting something you can't have, of knowing it's wrong. YES THAT'S a THRILL. But marry this guy, and I betcha he's no thrill... I bet his wife would tell us all A LOT about HIM.

I was in an abusive marriage but I didn't run around cheating and trying to get sympathy from single men. Even if I had they wouldn't have respected me anyways. Not that I'm higher then thou or anything... I just think good marriage or not, it's still a marriage. Until there is a separation and divorce, no "man" shall come between a married couple. That's what we say at our weddings, that's what I believe. And if you want to bring God into it... it's Biblical. God has RULES to protect us from extreme pain. The worst pain I can think of is a spouse cheating. It's like the pain of having an arm cut off. In my single years, and I was single a long time, I had "opportunities" with men who did this typical whining about their wives - with one guy he did this same routine - wa, wa, no sex, you name it, I found out it was the opposite as a friend researched it for me. He was a liar and a cheater, he was rich, he was older and he thought he had a right to an affair with a younger woman. I didn't play into his game, but I'm sure there was a long string of women who'd heard "this sob story" from him. His story was so far from the truth, but who knows the truth about someone else's marriage? WE DON'T, we can't tell so it's best to stay the heck away from married men or women.

It's a RULE any DECENT marriage counselor including Dr. Laura I'm sure would say,.

I am a Dr. Laura fan. She takes to task women who are cold and neglectful to their husbands, and yes, she does say "If you don't do this for your husband, some other woman will".
But I don't believe she tells either the husband or the wife that it is all right to begin a relationship with a married person.

In fact, I have heard her tell callers who are in those situations that what they are doing is wrong.

Well, I'm not on here telling you I am proud of how we went about this. And neither, is he.
He did not think she would care one iota that he intended to end his marriage. What resulted was a fierce battle over financial security issues for her in the future, rather than her losing the man and lover of her dreams, and she has been stalking and aggressive, has harassed him repeatedly and threatened to strangle him at one point. She also has out to pasture farm horses, and says she will put them down if he makes her sell the house and it will be murder and his fault because 'no one else can care for them better than I can" so we are not dealing with someone operating on a rational level, and his attorney, accountant, our counselor, and others, have seen this. He owns his own hospital practice, and his staff have known for years he has been unhappy and sad at home, they have seen first hand how difficult she is ; from all accounts, has been labeled "a micromanaging control freak who is a cold fish".

Anyway, some here believe its my misfortune I am the other woman, I see a man whose shoulder's no longer slump and who is confident and smiles and feels loved and wanted.


Anyway, I don't know what her issues are, he tried to get her to talk about her childhood and possible abuse issues, she would not have any of it. They went to a marriage conference and he wanted to be intimate there, and she said "we are not having any of that here". She has her own personal issues to work through and he was tired of 'hope being deferred".

Again, he went about it the wrong way and partly, he wanted to move in together because there were warning signs of obsessive behavior that could have escalated. I was told she was at one point, engaged in stalking behavior and to watch for escalation by the police. She stalked and harassed me outside his town home January of 06, and tried multiple times to keep him from leaving a conversation that was getting ugly by standing in his path.

In case anyone wants to read it, there is a site on obsessive ex's.



So, yes, marriages can work, and sometimes, for the safety of someone's sanity, they are allowed to move on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, mw, but I can fully understand the actions of his BW. I really can. She feels erased, replaced and annihilated. So much pain, I don't think I can convey.

I know you'll experience it, though. In time.

Not being catty here...being very real. Because what you're describing is where you will be in a couple of years. He will complain to another woman about you, and she will listen, be his friend, and you will be another crazy X who wouldn't change.

Because he doesn't own his half of the marriage. You're totally right--it takes two. Two people who meet freely, without attachment, not married, to grow into a real partnership. And usually, they don't know a thing about partnering...only how to parent and be a child...their first love relationship.

By his third or fourth marriage, this may sink in for your great guy--that it's not about finding the right partner, it's about being one.

I know obsession...comes from having intense focus on your partner for years...and when they leave...you continue that obsession in broader and more intense ways. No question. Understandable.

How you move on defines who you really are, mw. He didn't wait until the divorce was final...for his years of marriage, he didn't hesitate to begin another relationship, under the guise of friends, busting his marital boundaries with you, and he will not again. Just Friends by Shirley Glass. Great book.

You're setting yourself up for a good-guy/bad-guy relationship. I'm sure you've had this before...very attractive to you (comes from FOO). Rescuing makes you the good guy...the reliable, trusted, understanding one. Means he's weak, cowardly and doesn't own his own stuff...he wants others to be his cure.

Be very careful of that, mw. The truth of being the cure is that you have to be the cause and control, too. And humans cannot be any of that for others. That's reality. So what you're signing up for is more mothering, protecting, nurturing, etc. Which was why his first marriage went so wrong...and he didn't step up and learn to partner. He ran.

He will again and again until his pain becomes too intense to bear and then he'll look in the mirror and own what was always his...it's crushing. I know from experience. That realization that you had power from responsibility, limits, is devastating, for you had a bad-guy there to blame, shame...

That he spoke of his marriage to you at all broke the intimacy of it...you're a member of the opposite sex. I don't believe you were the first nor will you be the last. He doesn't have healthy boundaries and doesn't recognize marital ones.

He is as responsible for his marriage as his BW. During crisis, we seek comfort, a soft place to fall...when we are of the mind that we are being done to...

And you'll be the one doing to him...causing his pain, fear, anger, etc...just as you cause his happiness. You aren't starting with respect of one another...rescuing tells the victim they are a victim...reinforces they are powerless...nowhere to grow, is there?

Yes, my button is hit hard by what you are justifying, rationalizing...trying to prove here that it's okay to date a married man--reality is, he's married until the decree is entered.

I think it is equitable for divorces to take a long time...the marriage did. All the years they had of really knowing one another, warts and all...those good times and bad...those intimate moments two very real humans had together, again and again...experiences they were present for together. Why marriages are build...and divorce is dismantling, giving weight to what was real...not what was easy.

You've got the easy part right now...best selves forward...which isn't real...the chemicals, the wooing...the delighting...and the second phase comes because it does...and you'll see his real self...he'll see yours...and you will know that where you began will end you.

Look up JustJilly's thread...and others...who will tell you that not beginning free and clear of commitments makes your relationship false...for there is no way at all of believing either will be faithful to their commitments to each other.

There isn't.

Each has broken that barrier, crossed boundaries...and to build on that is truly a rough, awful road.

Be careful what you wish for is a great adage...and how harsh you judge his BW right now, you will remember, when you walk in her shoes...or when you walk in his...and he obsesses for awhile on you...acts crazy...to your new opposite-sex friend who rescues you.

It happens for a reason. For us to learn from. We're sharing here with you with all our hearts because we've been in those shoes...and there's no proving...humans do and not do. You are breaking apart a marriage. You are contributing. Because in crisis is when we find our way back to each other...and you are enabling him to not do that...reinforcing through your damaging support to believe his BW is the problem.

People aren't problems...they have them. Your guy has a lot of them, too. What he won't own now, he won't own with you...for that would be calling you what you are...getting in the way of his consequences, pain and growth.

You're worth more than that. You don't have to prove love...and by working so hard to prove to yourself you aren't doing what you are doing right now, so will you make him repay you...he'll have to work really hard to prove his love for you...prove where he is, who he is with, who he is talking to, what he's thinking about, who is his fantasy...and that's not a soft place to fall...just essential because of where you began.

LA

"I know you'll experience it, though. In time."

Why? Why would you want me to experience behavior that he knows was unhealthy and has been in counseling to address? Has anyone read here that we are in counseling? That he chose counseling with me over going back with her. They are addressing these very same issues.

How can she possibly feel erased and replaced when she was not present in the marriage anyway? She as much admitted she was married to her horses instead of her husband, she has admitted it was not 'all him'.

I do not understand why you would want to see someone else's relationship fail in the name of justice, apparently for this wronged other woman.

Some statements I read here seem manipulative and meant to guilt one from living a joyful life with a partner. He doesn't like her, and he cannot help how he feels. NOne of us can 'help' how we feel - the crazy belief that doing the right thing in this situation mean go back to her is ridiculous, she never wanted him in the first place, and someone define 'right?".

As I said before, the institution of marriage is becoming more important than the people who actually have hearts and feelings and basic human needs. Where is the heart of God in that?

Also, I said I was not taking any pride or pleasure in how we went about this.