If he was so miserable, he could have gotten a divorce instead of having an affair.

Folks here are not as anti-divorce as they are anti-affairs.

No one will argue that one must stay in a dead marriage. What people argue against is that it's OK to start having affairs if you are not happy in the marriage.

AGG

I did read that, mw...I think that's you, inside, trying to get your own attention.

It's not me wanting you to experience betrayal...it is both of your permissions for yourselves setting you up.

By becoming his confidante, you also became his comparison...furthering discord and the marital gap.

What he gives himself permission to do to others, he will do to you. That's human...not a premonition.

I believe you already know this...I believe you can already detect in him, because you know this truism, and you are fighting hard to cover it up in yourself. Which is YOUR pattern...your belief that love is earned...and so is punishment.

I'm asking you to consider I'm actually here for YOU. The future you...not because I'm a saint--you can clearly see I am not...and not to dog or control you.

You are in relationship counseling...two affair partners are in counseling for a relationship while they are actively ignoring the boundary of marriage.

Does that make any sense to you? And your counselor, knowing this circumstance...is not showing you the way to build a great relationship...or pointing out the ways this relationship formed, based in fantasy, will be your end, is he/she? No, that counselor is taking your money...participating in the fantasy.

Your choice to believe his wife was not present in the marriage will be your undoing. You will be present...as she was...for years. I have no doubt there is a lot of her in you, right now, part of his attraction...same as when he fell in love with her...

Difference was then, he wasn't comparing her to you...and in your future, she will be compared to you, too...he has rewritten his marital history, taken his truth and made it the truth...and you've chosen to buy into that fantasy.

We do that to justify. Again, hear the justifications. He cannot be helped in counseling with his affair partner while in the affair. Takes no contact, cold turkey, to break the fog.

That's what our MC told my WH and he broke it off with OW...and still worked with her. For three months, he was in counseling to make a clear decision...to either leave the marriage and go with OW; leave the marriage and not go with OW; or to work on the marriage for two years.

The MC said to him that he could not make this clear decision without first eliminating the influence he gave to OW...and he couldn't do that without stopping all contact, going through withdrawal...to know his real feelings, beliefs, perceptions.

You're that drug, mw...and you're in the way of his clarity. You aren't loving this man...or building a relationship...you are using his fantasy, enmeshed with yours, to murder a marriage...whether it was dying or not. So is he...and he's doing it with plenty of people around to blame later when you stop reflecting him the way he wants to be reflected...define him as he wants you to define him...and when you become the bully to maintain his victimhood.

You are actively participating and I believe, you know this. You are fighting against it...struggling hard, with determination to control outcomes.

Which is beyond our human power. Cannot be done. We only control our choices and actions.

I don't want anyone's marriage to end for justice's sake...justice happens. Not in anyone's control. Justice is God making humans with this inalienable two-way street...what you do to others, you do to yourself. What you will not allow yourself to do to others, you won't do to yourself.

And we can live as if that isn't true...until we can't. We own half of every relationship we have on this earth. Our half. The whole of our half.

And if he truly gets what he hasn't gotten yet, he will nearly implode with guilt from all the realizations...he will feel great shame and pain, have to work through all that, and his incredible dislike for you for participating, the aiding and abetting, of his fantasy world.

He will struggle hard to forgive himself...and may even struggle hard for your union, if there is one...but what is begun on lies will crumble. For you both crossed your own boundaries of respect...and expected to somehow change that into a respectful union.

I don't do right and wrong...I don't think his WIFE (not wronged other woman) has been wrong...her marriage has been attacked by a force outside of her control. She has her half...gosh knows you can look around see so many BS here who fought tooth and nail for their marriage by owning and changing themselves...it's thick here. Doesn't mean she will save it...you sure aren't supporting her if she chooses.

Heck, I didn't even KNOW I could save my marriage. It was a desperate wish inside me when I typed in those exact words into a search engine and found this place. I didn't even know I gave myself permissions...and had chosen not to even conceptualize of saving my marriage...didn't permit the idea to be real...mine was plea for someone else to do it...or give me permission to do it.

I wrecked, attacked, debased and abandoned my marriage several times, mw. I know what I'm talking about. It not only has survived...busted, bruised, broken...it's now flourishing, thriving.

Neither of us could envision getting to here from all those awful there's...we didn't know our power, our responsibility, our limits. We do now, and that has made all the difference.

Their marriage isn't a corpse some saucy examiner can declare dead. One person must kill the union to dissolve it. Same as one person can save it.

You want to be a reality bringer? To live authentically loving yourself and others? Stop seeing this man...go no contact for one year...not even by sight...remove yourself from their marriage right now...and in one year, if they are divorced and he can hand you the documents to prove it...and he owns his half of it...understands his power and limits, where he grievously attacked, disrespected and tore up...and how not to do that...then begin again, mw.

You're worth the wait...and in that year, learn what real relationships are...they aren't soulmates and rescuing...thriving unions come from respect, reality and acting from love...acceptance...and most of all, not living from your feelings...living from your beliefs, where feelings come from, with awareness.

Your joyful life is temporary...fantasy. Because it isn't joy from reality...which is above-board radical honesty. How can you be radically honest with him knowing he lied to himself for years and to others because he didn't know his own self-deception? How can you when you discover in your own growth how much you lie to yourself, as well?

This was how I lived within my marriage. I'm not a saintly BS...I'm both. I'm not making this up...this is my filter. I'm not posting to you to be mean...I have no joy in me right now at all...which will be like your marriage to him...because we cannot take joy by robbing others of it. That's fantasy.

If it took stealing to gain...is it really yours?

Can it ever be?

I hear your pain and frustration, you share your filter really well...to hear attack is to defend...and I'm asking you to hear to know...not to defend. Strive first to understand, then be understood. Without that, love isn't real.

You're totally correct...none of us can help how we feel...feelings are signals, they deliver information to us from our beliefs. This guy was as crazy in love with his wife at the beginning as he is now...she changed, not his fault. Harley shows and we are living proof he could have fallen in love with wife over and over again...because of HIS actions...not hers.

So when he does that with you...what will you feel? Silly? Foolish? Awful? Earn harder? Manipulate and control him more to get him to keep feeling love for you when he doesn't like that you disapprove of his opposite-sex friends, who know and understand how horrible you really are? How you hid it from him, changed drastically, over the years? Not him...you?

You say she never wanted him in the first place...hear yourself, please...were you there? Are you taking fantasy and making it truth? She cares greatly...that's what happens in marriages where vows are made, days are lived, through details and tragedies...and resentment is built, like grime, over time, covering resulting feelings of love...

From both sides.

Their patterns and loops will be yours...he is attracted to you for the same reasons he was to her...that's not me, that's Hendrix...and I've seen it time and time again...and the key is time...took time to get to where they are now...takes time to heal from it. If you truly love this man as your choice to believe you do love him, then act from it. Give him time to heal from what his life...his commitment...until death. Without contact. Remove all your influence.

One year is short...because it would take him two or three years to truly heal from this...to learn, understand, grow and know himself, his part, his power, and to grieve deeply his loss...loss of self-respect, esteem, all the acts of love she did, and not to see this as all one way.

Same for you...to shake off believing as fact what is an opinion, a recollection...assuming another person's thoughts, feelings, beliefs and perceptions without even knowing that person...only through HIS filter.

Because you were his soft place to fall...each time, in the future, you want him to do what you did, and he doesn't, you too, will create and build resentment. Your feelings will change, over time, for he is to be rescued, not rescuing. Your love debt you're building in your imaginary bank account is mount and mount...and you'll wrestle hard to get a different outcome from him...and spin into those same patterns...you know them already...you have.

All from believing love is earned...so, too, punishment...because you cannot believe one without the flip side of that belief.

Humans cannot earn love. They are love. Period. They choose who they love and act on their love.

God designed us and knows us better than we know ourselves...we are on this path to discover how incredible we are as his creations. He does not say, "Act from your heart"...he advises us to act from faith...not feelings. He knows when you act from love, loving feelings result...how we connect to others and we disconnect the same darn way.

I don't want you to go through this indescribable pain, mw. You're here. For a reason. I don't believe in coincidences, accidents. God's reaching for you for your own sake...he's reaching for everyone, btw.

God doesn't rescue...he respects humans choose to rely on him or not. To have faith or not. He gave us this great tool in our chest which resonates when we hear something we already know and are hiding from ourselves. Find where you resonate...find what triggers tears...get your own signals...trace them to the belief.

If you can in all honesty say, "I know I'm deceiving myself and others right now. I am doing it with full knowledge and intent to get what I want" then you will be better off by ten times down the road. Own your own choices. As humans, we not only have the choice to know our creator or not, we get to choose our thoughts, our beliefs, how we perceive and view...all our choices...and our feelings result from those choices.

They're really important. They give us our life experience...and changing them, changes our lives.

If you choose to read "Boundaries in Marriage" by Cloud and Townsend, you will find a lot of truths which will resonate in you. One of them is that "happy" makes a really lousy moral. It isn't moral at all. When we set our highest goal on being happy...we are forsaking the very things which give us the experience of happiness.

Same for being "right"...

Being love, however, through ownership and accountability may not feel like happiness in the short-term...it's no short-cut...yet it remains the only way to a bliss unknowable from where you are now.

When you do not feel pride, it's a signal...same for pleasure. Listen to that signal in yourself. You have to live with you all your life...you matter. You count. And only you can get your own signals, choose your stuff and live your life.

You are my equal in every way...we are all creations from the same hand, for the same reason...made whole, complete and marvelously. You don't have holes for this man to fill--you don't complete others. Sure can be your chosen belief, and therefore, your experience. Which is why there are no soulmates...there are people put in our path in this life for reasons...doesn't mean you will recognize what you will grow most from knowing and being known by...definitely means that the boundaries you make and enforce around yourself determine how much damage you do, though, doesn't it?

What we build in reality stays real...it's where our focus is...where our hands are...and what reality is for.

What we build in fantasy collapses...to sustain fantasy is to misuse it...dangerous drug, use with caution.

Wanting something to not be what it is...reasonable when we are children; not reasonable from our adult experience. Totally understandable to me...I remember.

LA

I have read the responses. While I disagree with several things, I have shared the board with him.

He is asking me to continue to believe in him. I believe him, three counselors believe him, his collaborative lawyers believe him, his wife's pastor believed him.

Should he leave me and I find myself staring at what was forecast - 'it will happen to me' then I will deal with that in the future.

For now, I feel the harsh words that I have murdered a marriage that was dead long before he and I ever met I disagree with.

we lived 1500 miles apart, we were apart for over a year and a half and he had time to work on issues with his wife, if you read earlier on, I DID encourage him to seek counseling with her and encouraged him to approach her physically. Her responses to him I had nothing to do with.
For him, he says being rejected repeatedly tends to make one stop trying, and he stopped trying a long time ago.

I also don't agree that aggressive and obsessive behavior is okay. Stalking another person is not okay. Looking in backyard sliding glass doors as a peeping tom is not okay for a ex's behavior. (I was just there looking to see if you really were there but not answering the front door).

Standing in someone's way when they wish to leave is not okay. Threatening to strangle someone is not okay.
harassing others by showing up at work to continue an argument someone is trying to end, is not ok.
Screaming from the top of your lungs as if you have been hurt badly to make someone come running to see if you have been hurt only to find you are acting out in a rage is ridiculous.
Hiding from someone for hours and then attacking them for not trying to find them is not drama that was necessary.

There have been some wise words on here. For that I appreciate the responses.

Cordially

MW77

MW77, our divorce was final aug. 30. What began as "just friends" with a colleague at my H's work took over his life. He shared personal things about me and about our marriage with his "friend". It was just about 10 years from D-day to Final Divorce.

I wasn't the best wife. But when I tried fightnng the fantasy of Ms. Perfect it was no contest. I could have healed the sick, raised the dead, and walked on water. He was addicted to the OW (and I truly believe they never had sex).

She was the catalyst.

There were times I was absolutely nutz. I'm ashamd of how I acted. Loving Anyway could have videotaped me and spoken for me, from the way she described the experience of the Betrayed Spouse.

I still love him. I can't even think about dating.

You don't have any idea of the damage you are doing/have done by being that man's friend. Maybe you will never know. Karma doesn't always hit in the same lifetime.

Mw,

As long as you had contact with him, you were in his marriage.

And you're right...you didn't murder his marriage. That was me being over the top in my passion to reach you. You were in on the conspiracy, though...because you stayed in contact...by phone, email...which mean you got in the way of him working on his marriage.

He had many years to work on his half of the marriage, Mw.

Most OW's urge their AP to seek counseling to save their marriage...and continue to exert influence as they continue the A. All contact continues the A. Because it continues the influence and the fantasy.

Why do you refer to her as his ex, btw? My understanding is they aren't divorced.

How many years have they been married? What did you think of mmicky's choice, btw, to end her A with a MM?

Do you believe that's because they weren't right for each other, or she didn't feel what you feel, or he didn't feel what AP feels? What makes their situation different, except that you've been in this A a lot longer?

As for BW's behavior...when you focus on her, you won't see his half...where he lacks healthy boundaries, gets in the way of her consequences...and these choices won't be new...they will be taken from the same reasoning of what he knew before. You say he knows more now. You say he's growing and learning...and you're choosing to believe in him.

It would be the counselor who refused to counsel you both who would be the one to listen to, understand...as he/she explained why. For your own health and welfare. Same for the pastor. That's the catch-22...the one who would help you most wouldn't. They don't participate in fantasy. It's unhealthy...and they would see you individually, I believe.

What did you think when you read the post on this thread that quoted a an anonymous letter to the OW? It's one of my favorites. I wonder what you thought.

LA

I read what Resilient posted, is that what you are referring to?

Yes, "He'll be different with you, you're special"...had to go look at the title again.

When a coworker sent that to me a few years ago (one of those net-forwards thingies)...I really changed how I looked at people...our patterns...and how very much I believed that others made me who I am...I saw a lot of myself in that fantasy state.

Truth rings through any kind of packaging, if that's what you really want to find.

LA

My (now divorced) WH met a woman of 38, his subordinate at work, who has never been married. She believed all his stories which were designed to win sympathy so she would have an affair with him. The whole "four year" nightmare was about him securing for himself a guarantee of success no matter who he ended up with - he literally pitted me against her in a race to see who supposedly loves him more (without telling either of us that's what he was doing - because he didn't really know he was doing it). He even threatened suicide to try to force the issue so he wouldn't have to endure the madness of the affair anymore and to avoid having to take responsibility for his second failed marriage. He has a propensity to avoid responsibility.

She knows none of this. I almost feel sorry for her - tried to warn her once how he had already cheated on her with others while still married to me - she wouldn't listen, but instead chose to believe his lies... IT-FEELS-TOO-GOOD to not be real love. I confronted him at her apartment once and she went crazy calling me a "crazy bitc#", which told me just how he managed to manipulate her to believe I deserved all I was getting. This manipulation is designed to make her feel better for ruining a marriage. Once she gets a taste of marriage (if she ever gets there) and all it's imperfections, how secure do you think she's going to feel? Because problematic marriages are prey for never-married 38 year old women and ex-wives are always crazy, or deficient, or unloving, or something. And if that doesn't work, blame the quality of the union. I've heard it all. She's going to develop paranoia, because no marriage is perfect.

The manipulation doesn't end and I agree with something another person asked... Do you only believe marriage is sacred if it's yours? My "OW" believes she didn't have anything to do with it - she bought his lies and the delusion. Imagine her surprise when she gets to heaven and finds out her beloved set her up for God's wrath. THAT ISN'T LOVE!!! It's purely selfish! Who are you saying you love here? If he loved you, he wouldn't be putting you in this moral dilemma.

Love is when someone does right - by you, not 'right by you'. "Where iniquity abounds, love grows cold".

Here's the things this OW doesn't know about the woman she hurt... I stood by my ex when he ignored my need to have a balanced budget. I stood by my ex when he did porn, year after year after year, like an alcoholic, never learning to solve marital problems and regularly and continually ignoring my feelings about things like not bouncing checks. I stood by my ex when he up and quit his career while I had two babies to take care of. Later I stood by my ex when he moved me across country so he could avoid his responsibilities to his ex-wife and two children (he was divorced when I met him). I stood by him when he abandoned them and drove us into insurmountable debt with child support arrears. I stood by him when he wouldn't get a new job three different times, remaining unemployed for a year or two each time, draining every possible financial reserve and harming our future. I stood by him when we refinanced our house to pay off $95,000 worth of debt and he only paid off his own $20,000 worth of student loans, blowing the rest of the money (all the while I was earning $3000 - $4000 NET). Why? Because I loved him and my marriage, the father of my children, was sacred to me as were his feelings. I stood by him when he was unfaithful then demanding (by way of executive summary) I give him more physical affection (meaning the sex he wanted, regardless of the drain he was having on me and solving those problems and meeting my needs too - his sexual needs of which I addressed for three solid years of giving him his every fantasy and pleasure while putting up with OW). I stood by him through everything and I did it while protecting his reputation, even when he got fired for having an affair with his subordinate, the OW now girlfriend, causing me to support the whole family alone.

In the end somehow I'm "incapable of love", I'm a "crazy bitc#" (her words). The truth is, no one is capable of loving endlessly and keeping that special spark in their eye for their husband, no matter how they're being treated. She doesn't see he's had the very best a woman can give and HE DIDN'T THINK IT WAS GOOD ENOUGH IN THE END.

Frankly, I wouldn't want to be her. My God! He'll end up disappointed AND depressed that he gave up a woman who would die for him. If she disappoints him - imagine the wrath he'll have for her if she disappoints him.

I sometimes feel sorry for him, because his delusion came from feeling "specially loved" by this woman, when she will at some point have expectations for a good man, and he's not a good man. He's a cheater, a liar, a porn addict, an adulterer, a fornicator, a child abandoner, a deadbeat, a financial nightmare, AN AVOIDER - all things she CHOSE to ignore about his character because of how good it felt to be "specially loved".

He has put a spin on everything! He really believes he's a good man! And you know what? You would believe it too. That man can polish dog doodoo and you'd think it was granite, until you step in it.

Save yourself. DON'T DATE MARRIED MEN. I often wonder why some of us women got that memo and some did not. You probably deserve so much better, as evidenced by the fact that you're here asking. I see a sweet side to you, a gentle consideration. Once you've invested some time, invested your heart into him, you'll begin deluding yourself too and that would be sad to see you do. No man is perfect, but my God, you sound like you can do so much better.

His OW... Is now in her fourties and still does not live with him or have a firm commitment. She doesn't know that just last month he told my 18 year old "I will make you wish you were never born", because he couldn't pay his rent and she wouldn't loan him the money. Thank God my daughter is not an enabler!!! You certainly can't credit me.

In any case, look at her years that he's wasting (five now), let alone my years. You know what baffles me the most? Why in the world would you destroy a family and then not commit to the thing that was so precious to motivate you to do it? Because... they know the stats on remarriage, they know (on some level) that they don't know what they're doing... they know there's no guarantee, so if they don't commit, they don't lose. I won't tell you how my ex set me up to be his backup plan.

Married men who cheat care about themselves. Period. You're just a means to a pleasant delusion - an addiction to avoid dealing with real hard life. We always reap what we sow. It's a universal law.

Go and sin no more (no more coveting what's not yours). Be good to yourself. Don't be good to cheaters.

You are right about not humanizing marriage. But, how do you know what God intended for these two people? Why didn't this man, in 30 years, take the time to get healthy himself and get out before having an affair? HE DID IT THE WRONG WAY - THE DAMAGING WAY. So what makes him any better? Just because his wife was awful, doesn't make adultery ok. There's no such thing as adultery in self-defense. That's like saying, well she stabbed me, so I stabbed her back. Two wrongs make a right? You better check your ethics.

My question for him is why he waited 30 years - that is SOME PRIDE THERE, then after spending his wife's 30 years, leaves her to cope with old age alone. That just doesn't sound loving to me. It sounds SELFISH AND PROUD. If he is as loving as you say he is, he would have left long before, leaving some part of her life to find someone else. And the real sick part is you think you did a righteous thing. What you did was create a monster.

PEOPLE, IF YOU'RE UNHAPPY, EITHER FIX IT OR GET OUT!!!

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ADULTERY!!! NONE!

So, there's your humanity for your beloved adulterer. It's really a shame after all of that that he chose to compromise himself instead of making a clean moral break.

I know this story too. My mother did it to another family. All I hear is how awful it was for him and you know what he's done for the past 20 years? Live off of my mother's hard work, sitting on his [censored] getting fat and getting diabetes. He never addressed what was wrong with himself. She caused his ego and his pride to inflate exponentially and SHE is living with the consequences.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR ADULTERY. PERIOD.

The next person who insists on paying evil for evil and calling God wrong, please line up.

I think I should have included an address to mw77, as my reply was in response to her post justifying adultery.

I don't always understand why and how it is so easy to sweep aside the wisdom provided to us in the form of God's commandments. It's really pretty easy, love God with all your heart, etc., and love your neighbor as yourself. But, he knew we would sin and we continue to, as evidenced by the condition of this world he gave us. I am no exception.

Let's think about our neighbor for a minute. Do we know if he or she is good or evil? Do we know what his or her strengths or weaknesses are? Do we know where they've been wounded? Neglected? Abused? Do we know how well they've been loved? Do we know what went into creating them to be who they've become? Do we know how they're being treated presently? Really?

I'm pretty sure that God's commandments were given to us to keep us from making bad mistakes in our ignorance. The commandment not to commit adultery is one of the most misunderstood, most abused that comes to mind. It's so bad that most states don't care about it anymore, because it clogs the courts. So, they opt to simply look out for the welfare of the children as the main goal in divorce.

My own experience with all sorts of people in all sorts of roles is that PEOPLE DON'T CARE ABOUT ADULTERY. They do it, they excuse it, they use it like an addiction, they ignore it, they justify it. Mainly, from what I've seen, they use it to PUNISH.

Well, 'Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay.' (condensed). So, if you are a terrible marriage partner or if you have one, figure out how to solve or exit your situation morally. Otherwise you're putting yourself above God and you're scrambling and corrupting the world around you.

God isn't against divorce, he did it himself. He divorced his people Israel. Divorce isn't a sin, but adultery is and always will be.

You know what adultery does to the betrayed (however evil you might believe them to be)? It robs them of the opportunity to learn and grow in a safe, non-abusive environment. It pays evil for evil. If married people take the time to learn why their marriage isn't working, whether they plan on staying together or not, the person doing the most hurting has the opportunity to be confronted with the threat of divorce, before they become abused by their mate with their replacement. I always picture someone beating the crap out of another with their lover. They have a safe environment to examine themselves and an opportunity to change. I don't think anyone grows up desiring to be "the evil one" (serial murderers and the like being the obvious exception). The whole idea behind counseling is to reveal feelings of a desire to divorce, so that the other person can see the nature of their "fruit" in life and can change their hearts.

What good does it do to just dispose of people? Because, the attitude, from what I've seen, of the people who do this sounds something like this, "they've reaped what they've sown", "they get what they deserve", "someone else will have to love them", "they're not my problem anymore". Speaking from experience, being sent the message that I'm somebody's discards, somebody's refuse, somebody's trash didn't do me any good at all. I didn't marry to be thrown away. I married to love and be loved. And love sometimes means being corrected, being revealed, being taught lessons. I am abused when I am not rebuked. And I abuse when I don't rebuke. Marriage is supposed to be a safe environment within which we become better people and manifest the love of God. I didn't offer my heart to another person to eventually be judged and condemned and none of us do. That's what adultery is... judgment and condemnation.

I know I did things wrong in my own marriage. In those things I was ignorant. Who of us knows how to 'do' marriage right from the beginning? Who of us has just the right counselors and support networks of family and friends to give us just the right advice just when we need it? If a problem persisted in my own marriage, it was because either I wasn't told there was a problem, or I didn't understand. I rely on my partner to work with me until I do understand.

As empathetic and as compassionate as I may be, it is impossible for me to know exactly what another person is feeling. I am completely dependent on their ability and willingness to tell me in a way that's meaningful to me, to teach me, to use correct metaphors, whatever. Screaming, yelling, passive-aggressiveness and violence are not effective forms of communication. Adultery is passive-aggressive. It is the ultimate in passive-aggressive where marriage is concerned.

mw77, it sounds like your mate was married to a deeply wounded person who probably only learned how to cope with her emotions using passive-aggression. But, she has value and is valuable to God. I wonder how she would have responded if he had said to her, "honey, I just don't understand what I've done wrong by your silence. I want us to be happy. I need more information to know how to love you. Can you try expressing what made you angry? Then I will know not to do that again and I'll feel a lot better knowing how happy I can make you (not to mean that he was at fault, but humility opens doors to knowledge)." Or, "you know physical affection in the form of sex or lovemaking is normal and healthy and a necessary part of a happy marriage. I don't know if I can stay married to you, because I am deeply lonely and frustrated. God made us to be together in that beautiful way and I would like to see if we can safely remove the obstacles that may exist so that we can have a safe and deeply fulfilling marriage." Or, "honey, your words hurt me deeply. They aren't true. But, it sounds like something hurt you or you wouldn't be lashing out like that. Will you please try to help me understand? I want you to be happy and if I'm missing the mark I truly want to know and to correct myself." Or, "let's get help to learn how to make each other really happy, because I love you and I want you to have the best and I surely would love it too."

If anyone is ridiculed after that, they can leave in good conscience. Not for another woman or man, but by themselves. The reason they ended up there in the first place is half their fault. There's something wrong with them. To begin another relationship before learning those things just isn't wise.

So wm77, let me ask you this. If you had been his ex-wife and you lived terrified, behind a curtain of defensiveness, shame, whatever, wouldn't you want God to reach deeply into you to heal you and bring you the love you need? Or, would you want someone to waste 30 years of your life then beat you up with their lover? Wouldn't it be far more compassionate to leave after, say, year 3? Year 7? Year 14? Leaving you something of your life? Even if only to jar your senses and wake you up? Then, if a lover isn't in the picture, imagine the possibilities for healing and for love where little or none existed before. EVEN IF THEY DON'T STAY TOGETHER.

In my heart and in my mind, it just isn't very productive to beat the crap out of anyone with your lover. THAT IS THE EXPERIENCE OF ADULTERY. That is how it feels to be replaced without being brought to understanding first. It makes you feel like defective trash. Period. It is completely unproductive PUNISHMENT.

There's a big difference between rebuke, discipline and punishment. Adultery=Punishment=Vengeance.

Thank you for the posts. I believe I have been forced to see my part in this when I naively saw only the hurt he was inflicting on us both. I see now, the part I played.

I cannot walk away at this time. I have moved all the way across the US to be with this man, he has purchased a new home for us, my children live here, my son attends school here, two girls are going to college here. He is a part of their lives, and the damage it would do to their hearts after losing their father, I have no idea how I would even begin to handle that.

The audacity of hope I see clearly. Perhaps the 'fire' for me was not the intimacy, so much as being with someone who did not hit, yell, scream, threaten, and so on after living with it for 17 years.

Thank you for letting me speak on the board and I wish you all well.

MW77

MW77 writes:


Gee, we certainly haven't read THAT before. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Then why, prey tell MW77, didn't he divorce her back then???

Most of us on the boards are Christian/Jewish, and we believe what God says, and HE is the ultimate Judge.

Find a Bible and try reading these verses:

He COMMANDS us NOT to commit adultery or covet our neighbor's spouse in these verses:

Exodus 20:14 and 20:17
Deuteronmy 5:18 and 5:21

Proverbs 5 warns against adultery and is a really good description of an adulterous woman.

Proverbs 6:20-35 also warns against adultery.

An adulterous affair is NEVER OK. It is NEVER right.


All you know about your adultery partner's marriage is what he tells you. Some of these guys are expert liars.

Did you ever consider that maybe the reason his wife doesn't have sex with him (if that is even true) COULD be because he might be a serial cheater who won't stop and she doesn't want any nasties passed on to her?

You are doing your children far greater harm by exposing them to your adultery. I am sorry that they had to live in an abusive home and that their father committed suicide; but, in the long run, teaching them that adultery and disrespect for the sanctity of marriage will harm them far more than ending the relationship with the MM. Houses can be sold. Children can be enrolled in other schools. How will you feel when your daughters think it is OK to be the OW or your son chooses to cheat on his wife? After all, Mom did it, so it must not be so bad.

Doing wrong comes with consequences. The inconvenience of having to uproot your children is a mild consequence of your wrongdoing.

Why not do the right thing? In the long run, you'll be doing yourself a huge favor.

Well Resilient, where would be the fun in that? Much better to biatch and moan about his 30 ((*****THIRTY****)) freakin year marriage and how miserable he is only getting laid 10 times.

You can attract a better class of OW telling lies like that.....

I'm a guy. My 2 cents here is that she's going on FEELINGS. Sorry, but if we all went on feelings on stuff, nobody would stay married, nobody would stay committed to anything.
Love is TOUGH love. It's never easy.
Marriage is hard and it's tough, but when you COMMIT to that one special person 4 LIFE, then you say those Sacred Vows to "FORSAKE all others" - what part of that does not that OM understand? He vowed before God and Man to love this woman for life. Now he's gotten someone else on the side.
Broken Wedding Vows = A BIG FAT LIAR!
Leave this LOSER, or better yet, do not move to be closer to him and let him deceive someone else who is foolish enough to believe his LIES.
"A marriage that was dead long before he and I ever met"? I don't believe that. If it was dead that long ago, why did he not then divorce her that long ago? Sounds to me like you, my friend, are climbing on board the TITANIC - after it hit the iceberg... Even the rats were smart enough to desert a sinking ship...
JMHO.
Harold

I would say that if you are going to stay commited to this relationship that you better get married as soon as possible. That way you can take him for half his money when it blows up. I am not saying that to be mean either. I never felt sorry for the OPs until I read Surviving an Affair. It opened my eyes to the sickness of self delusion that both the WS and the OP suffer.

Now as a father, I would have to say that you are creating a damaging situation for your children, and allowing them to get involved with this man, specially while he is still married, is irresponsible at best, and tragic at worst. You have just moved them across the country and into a hornets nest.

I will pray for you all.

MW



Your driving the final nail in the coffin of this M.

Unfortunately, the corpse isn't going quietly.

Therefore, you will see a long drawn out Divorce, and it not about her saying thank you for 30 years, its about her getting everything she can for those thirty years. Just like your AP is trying to avoid giving her as much as she is due.

You were married to a man for 17 years, who was horrible to you. Your only escape was that he killed himself.

If your Dr. "friend" had shown up at marriage year 16, and wasn't married, and started a friendship with you, how fast would you have jumped into his arms then?

But you WERE STILL MARRIED then right?

Just like he is now.

And before you think i'm another angry betrayed spouse spewing at you, I was the wayward one.

I told my OW all the same types of things to justify my actions. Because it was easier to demonize my spouse that it was to actually look in the mirror for the defective one. ANd yes, OW told me about how awful her BS was.

Yes, it was the fantasy world.

And after 1 year of the fantasy, I told her I wasn't going to get a divorce, but the affair continued for another 3.5 years.

We never discussed the future, only the next time we might be able to sneak away.

So, maybe your AP is doing all the right things to escape this M and end up with you. And you might live happily ever after with him. Whatever.

I could have to.

But one day, after discovering this website, and ending it for the 7th or 8th time with the OW, but her understanding that this time it was for REAL, OW called my W and outed me.

OW thought, Great! He's MINE! NOW the BS is going to throw him out.

She didn't.

That was over 2 years ago.

Our marriage has moved to a place that never existed before. Honesty and openess, respect, knowledge and growth in BOTH of us.

Something your AP has decided not to put into his M. For 30 years.

It isn't all the BS. She may be many parts the monster that your AP is making her out to be. But he is making that mountain larger than the molehill or hillock that it really is.

And your points about the MANs needs being minimized while the Womans are taken and taken, has some validity, but it was up to your AP to work that out. Sometime during the 30 years of this M. And 4 times to the MC doesn't cut it.

And he didn't. Just like you didn't escape your bad first M. Because you both made a promise at the alter.

So understand your role in this sitch.

It ain't pretty, and will never be roses. But it will be a life. Better than what you used to have, but somehow, deep down not 100% right.

I could have never seen myself at a dinner party with my OW in the future, after we both D'ed and then got M'ed to each other. Dreading the day that someone in the dinner party asking innocently: "So, how did YOU TWO meet?"

Because the answer to that question will always, always have been an embarrassment to me.

You were interested in a man chiming in? Well there you have it.

LG

I agree with Fluffy. I'm pretty sure that he's gotten laid more than 10 times in 30 years...and maybe THAT's why his wife started refusing to have sex with him. From what you've said, he's a doctor? Yeah...right....surrounded by cute lil' nurses and women like you day in and day out...some of them probably charmed by him and others probably thinking, "Oooh, a DOCTOR!" with $$$$ signs making their eyes sparkle.

Oh, and BTW, if he wasnts you so badly and if he feels so badly about hurting her, he should give her EVERYTHING!

Why should HER lifestyle have to change just because he wants a younger wife?

Oh...and here's another thought for you. Marriage is not all about ONE SPOUSE's needs. From what I've read on this site and elsewhere, along with personal experience. If she wasn't meeting his needs, part of it may be because he wasn't meeting hers and let her know that he wasn't interested in meeting them. Not meeting your partner's needs becomes a vicious circle, and it was as much HIS responsibility to stop the cycle as it was hers.

I hope his wife divorced the jerk and cleans him out...

Oh yes, RICH men who think they DESERVE to have affairs because they are so important...

Nurses chasing him all day.

Do you think you are the ONLY other woman for goodness sake?