I am not married and am just beginning to learn what marriage means.
But I must say I am shocked to see that so many people around me take marriages for granted, without applying the precious rules Dr. Harley gives and without putting any effort into making things work. And I dont get it. I agree, I am learning how sacred marriage is, but I don't think that this means that one can feel free to be a jerk because of that non? Clearly, if you are on this site, this is not your case. You are trying to make things work out. And here is the key. You are trying to make things work; you put effort into your marriage. But why do so many people stop putting any effort into it, with the excuse that "now they have a binding contract"? It almost seems to me that they are saying that they got a contract that allows them to be inconsiderate and it's OK because they have that contract. Why does this happen?


A story was posted but I removed it now - I thought the student involved might not like reading about it (he might be on the site, as I know he used to read a lot of these books). So I removed it. Basically, it described the relationship between a student at work and his wife and how one was inconsiderate towards the other.

mmicky - to oversimplify an answer, the reason is usually "selfishness."

"Contracts," as the saying goes, "are made to be broken."

Covenental Marriage is for life and it involves surrendering selfishness and putting spouse and marriage ahead of "wants, desires, and feelings."

But to go further in the discussion would require a discussion of Marriage as created and ordained by God and I don't know if faith in God is a part of your life or not.

One other aside based upon what you have written on other forums....you won't like to hear this, but if you value marriage and your own personal happiness....RUN, as fast and as far as you can get from this Married Man that you are developing feelings for.

He is NOT marriage material, in my humble opinion, and has no right to a divorce if his wife has not committed adultery. Even if he proceeds with getting a divorce, do NOT get involved with him as he has a very poor understanding of marriage or the meaning of Covenant. He seems to operate on the basis of his feelings. If they truly have been in counseling, something is either very wrong with the Counselors or he has not been serious about rebuilding his marriage and is just using the Counseling as an excuse to say, "See, it didn't work so I am now justified in getting a divorce so I can continue doing whatever I feel like doing."

Run.

And if you are seriously interested in being married at some point, then you should learn what it means to be married and what is voluntarily surrendered to each other in marriage. Self-centeredness and selfishness are incompatible with a good marriage as you can see from the, apparently, very young wife of the Ph.D candidate in your example.

God bless.

Thanks for your answers.
But how do people surrender selfishness, when some seem to "develop" it the day they get married? It is like those jobs you know you cannot get fired from. Once people get them, they relax and make no more efforts, because they know nothing can happen.
I dont understand that. In a way, by doing that, they are making themselves miserable too! But that does not seem to worry them as much as their "power" to do whatever they want and feel that the other one just has to accept it because they are married.
So I would not want that to develop to me if I ever did get married (and no, I am really trying not to think of that married man! But I do admit it is hard, but gradually, I will manage!).
So... basically, selfishness is something that, even if it should not, it seems to grow with the excuse of a contract. It must be very hard to eradicate that. I have seen this woman completely neglect the policy of joint agreement towards the student. I suppose it is a lot up to him to change this too and to convince her to do things "together". But when she smiled saying that "this is what marriage is", implying that you can do what the hexxx you want... then I just would never want it like that. And how do you realize if you get with someone like that? They are all nice and loving in the beginning. Then they just flip it looks like (or perhaps I just assume, I dont know).

mmicky, you are "putting the cart before the horse" with this question.

It begins with a relationship with God. If someone does not have such a relationship, then they are, BY NATURE, controlled by self. They do not see themselves as a sinner in need of salvation and surrendering their "self" is not in their vocabulary.

But I'm not sure that you are interested in "going there" in a discussion because it involves "God's worldview" rather than any other "worldview."

Yes... I am putting the cart before the horse...
It is just that, by seeing all these postings, things do not seem too encouraging...
To be completely honest, I see very few people surrendering their self. Only with children. But rarely with a spouse. In fact, I see very few people thinking about the wellbeing of their spouse it seems. Some do question themselves, but some really don't (and I am being general, not talking about this site). Another coworker told me she was angry that her husband was becoming deaf. I told her it was really terrible and she must have felt sorry for him; that must make him feel really bad, getting old already, and deaf. The world disappearing from around him. And she responded that I did not understand. It is for her she felt sorry, did I know what it would mean to live with someone who already has a hard time listening, and now, if they become deaf, they really won't hear a thing? So the one who was not listening, was her, not him (despite his lack of hearing). He actually has hearing aids and things are better. But the initial reaction was so selfish, I think. I see this over and over and over and over. And I am probably selfish too, because I even conceived of a married person... so who am I to speak. But I don't have a parter, and sometimes I wonder if it is worth it, given how most seem to end...

I feel I can do so much more goodness to the world without being married sometimes. I have students to dedicate time to, and that really makes a difference to them when one is there for them. They learn and grow, and it is amazing to see. I help people a lot and often do humanitarian things. I give free lectures to high school kids on difficult isues that can make a difference if they hear about them. All things have to be cut down with marriage because it is right to dedicate time to a spouse. Which would be beautiful, if the marriage can be celebrated the right way. But given all the troubles that arise (from reading here, it is pretty clear...) then one has to focus on that only. I am not against putting effort, but this would just help ONE person (spouse). Is it not better to help many, like students, poor people, etc instead?

mmicky - No one says that everyone "must" be married. Many choose not to marry for many reasons, but most of them choose it so that they can be free to be with whomever they wish, whenever they wish. Some choose celibacy as a way of life, primarily priests and nuns, in order to serve God and the needs of others, others choose it because it makes them feel "above the fray" and therefore, "relatively better than the 'common folk'."

But we are not talking about "others," we are talking about you. So let's visit a few of the things you wrote and offer a few comments.



"Self interest" is the normal state for all humans. It is little surprising, if you think about it, that the same "normality" would carry over into marriage or that God's plan and purpose for marriage would be corrupted by "human nature."

You see, you are touching on a couple of subjects that are sure to get differing opinions, sometimes loudly differing opinions, as to the underlying cause(s) of the effect that you are rightly seeing around you and that you are pointing out.

Let's just talk briefly about two of those "subjects," okay?

1. Sin and the natural state of Man. (Man is basically evil or Man is basically good)

2. Marriage as a God ordained covenant designed for the good of Man or a societal invention that has no meaning beyond what society "chooses" it means. (Note, if you will, that "society" IS a euphemism for a collective bunch of individuals who want to impose their way of thinking upon everyone else under the guise (sometimes true and sometimes false) of "protecting and helping the group as a whole." You see this sort of thing highlighted today in the worldwide push to "redefine" the term "marriage" to include virtually any "relationship" that anyone wants, with the individual as the sole arbiter of what "marriage" means. (Here comes that issue of self-centered selfishness again)

What is really being discussed in both of those points is the "who is in control" and "who really is Sovereign and has the right to say, definitively, what marriage is and is not, along with what "right and wrong really are," regardless of our own personal opinions or desires?"

This IS a theological versus secular issue at it's heart.

On the one hand you have the institution of marriage as a covenant relationship designed by, and created by God for a specific purpose, with intent, and not an "accident of nature."

On the other hand you have marriage as a "convenience" in the "survival of the fittest" concept to simply meet the emotional (sexual), physical (cooking, cleaning, providing the groceries, etc.) and procreation (continuance of MY particular "species" line) areas of "what's in it for me". This approach is totally centered in the "what's in it for me" sort of self-centered decision-making process. It results in changing a VOW into a "conditional promise" with the individual as the sole arbiter of when and why that "conditional marital promise can be broken."





It IS also true of most, I'd even venture to say "all," who are also on this site. It is the NORMAL human condition. Even believers "fight" this reality. But again we are back to underlying fundamental "truths" about human beings. The "difference" you see here, especially in Betrayed Spouses, and some Wayward Spouses who ended their affair pre-discovery, is that they are exercising their Free Will right to CHOOSE how THEY will react to the cause of intense feelings. Some of that choice (for specific individuals) is based in a religious belief structure that DOES place marriage on a "covenant" level and some is based in the lingering general acceptance of the concept of marriage that was FOUNDED upon, generally Christian, a continuation of the idea of "one man/one wife" that stems from the same basic Judeo/Christian beliefs that formed many of secular society's laws and traditions.

The "problem" is that the further "secular society" moves away from "absolutes" and into "relativism," the more rapidly the structure of many things, including marriage, disintegrates and is replaced with the "I am the sole judge of what is right and what is wrong in MY life and FOR me" attitude. Today we have the ever growing clamor of self-interest to change the "definition" of marriage to accommodate what THEY want, to "redefine" what the term "marriage" means.





I understand your feeling and what you are trying to say, however, the "is it worth it" question depends upon the SOURCE of the truth that is being applied, don't you think? IF the truth is that marriage, as God created and ordained it, is the truth and not the secularly proposed "truth" that "marriage is a convenient arrangement" decided upon by Man for his own purposes (altruistic or selfish), then the "worth it or not" question is answered. One only has to choose to accept or reject, but the truth will not be affected regardless of the choice any individual makes. The EFFECTS of that choice WILL affect society in general, and marriage in specific, but the "truth of the matter" will not change regardless of personal opinion or "rationalizations" for doing what is "Selfish" oriented.

So, in that context, let's go back to what you wrote in another post.




Yes you can do "more" if your focus is not divided between spouse (and children), but you are really propagating the secular notion that children are "best" taught by someone other than their parents. It is the parents' responsibility to see that their children are educated, and that includes the moral and spiritual, education. Remember, no matter what YOU or I think and teach, each child will eventually have to "decide for themselves" what is "right and wrong" for themselves.

If you do not believe in marriage, the sanctity of marriage (remember I am not saying this IS what you believe), the concept of servanthood in marriage, the covenantal relationship in marriage between husband, wife and God, then that becomes part of what you are teaching the children. One "truth" that is often ignored or overlooked is that children, and most adults for that matter, LEARN a lot more by ACTIONS observed rather than by words spoken.

If someone takes the position that "I can do more good for other people because I am better than married people" then what is "taught" is that marriage IS a selfish, self-centered, arrangement that is only valid as long as I "want" it to be. When I decide that I no longer have emotional responses, then "love" no longer exists and I am free to do whatever I want to do. What is taught is that "what I get out of teaching others," my own "feel good about myself feelings" are more important that love and commitment to any ONE individual who might be my lifelong spouse and completer.

The purpose of celibacy is NOT to protect oneself from potential pain of a failed marital relationship or to make others (or myself for that matter) THINK I am such a good and caring person for others. The purpose of celibacy is to be able to devote oneself full time, and completely, to doing the "work of God," to be able to teach the Good News to others. Doing that work is NOT "restricted" to the celibate, it is simply a matter of "time allotment."





This is good in so far as it goes. What those "issues" may be and the WHY someone should or should not engage in a particular thing ("issue") is largely dependent upon the personal opinions of the "teacher" and the belief of the "teacher" as to WHO, WHAT, and WHY they should "submit" their own potential selfish pursuits and choices to "someone else." However, in the context of what we have been discussing (Marriage) the "Issues" at issue here is "just" Marriage, not pot smoking or drinking or any other "things."

But the premise that "All things have to be cut down with marriage because it is right to dedicate time to a spouse" is incorrect. SOME things do have to be placed behind the marriage as far as time allotment goes, but prioritization becomes the issue, not eliminating things of importance. Besides, even as a single person, this prioritization of time remains simply because there IS a finite amount of time in which to "do things."

So what might a "teaching" of "marriage is okay for some people, but not for most and certainly not for me" really teach the "next generation" about marriage and commitment? On the other hand, what might be taught by someone who IS in a committed, dedicated, loving, marriage about the roles of men and women, and husbands and wives in particular? What might it teach that someone CAN be both married and concerned about others in their chosen career path? That sort of marriage, and what it teaches through the practice of marriage, is that there ARE things more important that just "me" or "what's in it for me and how can I use someone else for my own advantage."





Ahhh …. The old "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" philosophy.

Tell me, mmicky, how many students, poor people, people in general do you think would be "helped" by a lived-out example of a true marital commitment? How many people, even in the case of adultery, do you think are helped by a lived out example of what true forgiveness, as God has forgive us who are "in Christ," helps?

You are, it would seem, misapplying or at least misunderstanding what "sacrificial love" means and doesn't mean.

Here, in a very brief nutshell, is what it truly means and what is taught to everyone whether they choose to believe it or not:

"This is love, that while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us."

Purposeful action, purposeful choice, God-honoring oriented ahead of "self". Why would the one "through whom and by whom" you and I and everything was created CHOOSE to subject Himself to death at the hands of those He created, and who were driven by their "sin-nature?"

The "focus" was not on self. The full impact of that Scripture verse is often not fully understood, even by believers. Could Christ have "done a lot of good" by simply going around healing people and working various miracles, such as creating food to feed multitudes? Yes. But would that have actually served the "greater good" or just been a temporary and fleeting action that was lost as soon as the "doer of the good things" died and left the scene and left people to "fend for themselves?"

Here is the TRUTH regarding Christ and His sacrifice. He would have done exactly the same thing if ONLY one person would be saved through His actions. This is, after all is said and done, the reality or "myth" that God exists, that heaven and he11 exist, that evil truly exists, that mankind HAS an innate, "fallen nature," and that the most important "Thing" in all of this is the soul of one individual, of each individual.

It comes full circle back to Creation by a loving and purposeful God, or Evolution and no "higher purpose" or design. It comes back to "God's Worldview" or "Man's secularized Worldview."

It begins and ends with LOVE.


God bless.

wow! thanks for you long and really thoughtful answer about all these issues. It is completely true (and we were discussing this exactly with my sister who has three wonderful children and has been with her partner for 22 years and really tries hard to make things work). So we were discussing how you can tell children all you want, but what they learn is really what they see, and your ethics and moral code, and the manner in which you do things. So I do see your point a lot. Thank you.
I am going for a while away to Florida. So bye to you and everyone who has been very helpful!
And good luck to all in making things work in your marriages!

Micky,

I read your other thread and want to say I have great admiration for you for choosing not to continue with a married man. You know a lot more than you know you do.

Hey, makes sense to me!

I wanted to throw in here a thought...in your posts, the question I kept hearing from you was why were you only now experiecing these feelings...

And I saw where you attributed it to the other person...the wrong man.

He's not wrong...he's off-limits. There's a difference.

You were the reason you had these feelings...you were the difference. Please know this. When we do open ourselves to enjoying, understanding, really listening to others, we fall in love...for we are humans, with a mandate to know and be known.

God's design...not mine. Not an individual ingredient. And yet God respected us so much as to include choice in everything within us. We only do that which we choose to do...and from our choices, we get feelings.

Because you opened, you received. You know to choose wisely...do so, and choose to, anyway.

You've identified what was exampled by others while you were growing up was what you chose to believe about marriage...and that belief isn't true for you. You didn't count your adult experience into the mix...and it's the only valid experience which makes you privy to all the facts, not the perceptions of marriage.

Viewing from the outside eliminates all the data...the experience from the inside is how you know.

No one has a perfect marriage...because we aren't perfect humans...we are just perfectly human. The three stages of marriage...and now the labels have left my brain...but they go to Attraction, Enmeshment and Mature Love are real.

We are attracted, infatuated...from ourselves opening to connection and being connected with...we put our best selves forward...we may think we're telling our warts and all, we don't really show our warts in our actions...we woo, romance, dedicate and convince ourselves this is it...this partner is the right one.

Reasonable to me, given all the chemicals being delivered, the euphoria and delight experienced...the intravenously delivered candy we are partaking from our own choice of perspective.

So we date for two years and marry...and over time, our warts show...they do...not from lack of caring, selfishness...from living in a real union...which may not be a partnership, more of a parentingship...because that's what we know first about loving...parenting and being parented. And we strive to grow in this, with our soulmates completing us...which means we believe we have holes only others can fill...and what we don't realize, because we aren't being fully honest as the candied drug wears off, is that it's not them doing it to us...it's us doing and not doing.

Projection is a real human tool of God's design as well. We will see in others what we have in ourselves...solid signal is usually what we hate about ourselves...when we see others doing/thinking/believing what we disown, we project on them...what they're doing wrong, bad, etc. Really still about us...owning all of ourselves, trying to get our own attention to discover more and embrace more of what's in us...so we can better know and share our stuff with others.

Which is what knowing and being known is all about, isn't it? The definition of intimacy...knowing and sharing your stuff.

When someone craves to be heard, you can usually see where they aren't listening to what they're saying. When someone says someone won't let them be happy...well, you get the idea. You listen. What a turn on for anyone. You hear others' stuff as theirs...and you don't take their truth (stuff) as The Truth.

What a gift. What a marvelous being you are, Micky. Whatever you feared, shut off by not sharing who you really are...please gift yourself to this world more..for a union...a relationship. No human can control the outcome (why God's a beyond genius in his design)...you control your part, your extent of connection. We all have a primal fear of abandonment and intimacy...and swing between the two...often, confusing ourselves.

Reasonable to me.

Being aware of where we are on that line is essential to experiencing life's reality...right here, right now.

Your instincts are great...your careful consideration and balance in introspection is inspiring to me...outstanding. Know what you fear, and how you act from that fear...and love, anyway.

Please come back and post...you add to the world. Thank you for looking to your own actions, keeping no contact, and sharing your stuff.

And consider sending a simple communication to his BW stating the facts of the EA and your choices to respect their marriage. Do this so that your part is amended, honestly, even though the fear is huge...you can only control your part...because you're putting behind you a boundary crossing...and you seem really great with boundaries...and amends are part of those, aren't they?

LA

I didn't get to the third stage of marriage...I lost meself.

From infatuation/attraction, we grow into Enmeshment...showing real selves to one another and actually, to ourselves, for often we use our partners as mirrors, define ourselves through the reflection. That's a chancy way to live...and we usually spend a lot of time trying to get our darn mirrors to reflect us as they once did...forgetting that's when we were only showing our best selves, our high points. So we crave that high.

Breaking enmeshment and working through the middle stage is the longest, toughest, most rewarding and growth-laden time, if we choose...or it's the time when we end, run, rather create again that first stage, over and over again, with other people...replacing and remaining in the same place, running as fast as we can...with the same results.

When we get through that long-lasting, super painful (intimacy is not bliss without pain, nor without fear) time...then we arrive at the mature love...which blows away infatuation feelings...what comes is a deep contentment, trust, assurance and security we've craved all our lives...

and it doesn't come from choosing the right partner...

it's getting to where you know you are being the right one.

You know your part, your own significance, value you cannot earn...what you were made with...and you act from respect, love, acceptance and understanding from all the work you did, the awareness you set for yourself and the knowledge of all the years of really connecting to each other...even when you disconnected...that you grow side by side; not growing one another, changing the other. Comes from respecting you are two whole, complete humans, in a human marriage, with Harley's perspective and beliefs a work, daily, through awareness and choice, and you mind your marital and personal boundaries because that's where your happiness truly lays.

That's my belief, from experience.

LA

Thanks for all the nice words!
I posted something on another thread, for mw77, who was/is in a similar situation.
Let's hope things turn out for the best for everyone! It would be nice if one remembered to be in everyone's shoes, to understand things better from many angles (and before taking any sort of action on anything).
ciao!