Jerry,

I am not bringing up past hurt. I am talking about current hurt - things that are happening right now, today.

I am perplexed that you seem to be of the opinion that forgiveness is the cure-all for this situation. Do you believe it is wise to forgive someone who has not changed course?

There is a vast difference between forgiveness and reconciliation.

I can forgive someone for the ways they have hurt me, but I believe it to be unwise to open myself up to that person until they truly change course. That's like asking for further abuse. I am quite sure of that because I have done it and that's what the outcome has been.

If Patriot physically abuses me, and he verbally promises me that he will not do it again, yet 2 months later he did it again and again a month after that...would you think I was a fool to reconcile with him or would you simply tell me to forgive and how did you put it...



That seems quite foolish to me.


Mrs. Wondering,

By "foggy wayward thinking" I meant blaming the BS for the affair and making excuses for the WS, such as "I don't think it was intentional."



Do you not believe that people should be called on behaviors or held accountable for their choices?

When you say takes a beating...do you mean to say that you hear him being blamed?



It makes perfect sense to me why someone would not want to be placed in that category...just like it makes sense to me that affairees bristle at being accused of "rutting like pigs". As a matter of fact, I have noticed that affairees don't seem to like that one bit. But that doesn't make it any less true. I am not saying that I agree with your label DELIBERATE EVIL VILLAIN. Those are not my words. But I will agree that it is deliberately hurtful behavior. Call it PA, call it LB'ing, it makes no difference to me. I am telling you that it is extremely hurtful to me, is making it impossible for me to trust Patriot, is abusive and is pushing me away from him.

You can tell me that I must be imagining it, or that I shouldn't be hurt by it, that I should just accept it or any other belief you may hold that might explain to me why you are supporting, enabling, sympathizing and making excuses for these behaviors, but I am truly perplexed, Mrs. Wondering, by the way you seem to refuse to believe that Patriot's behavior is not deliberate.

Quite some time ago, you apologized to me for not believing me. You did so AFTER Patriot admitted that what I had been saying was true. If I remember correctly, you apologized to me for invalidating my perception.

Yet when the same behavior came up again (not too long ago), you posted to me that you "didn't see how Patriot was actually lying - or how it was intentional and deliberate".

Again, he later came back and admitted that he was dishonest and that it was deliberate.

And here I am again, hearing you say that you don't see how it is deliberate.

No I do not! If Pat is abusing you verbally or physically then forgiveness is not yet warranted or appropriate. Is this what is happening Pat? If so, I've misjudged you and cannot blame froz in continuing to protect herself.



It's only foolish if the dynamics between the two of you have not somehow changed. If not, why not?

Are you both clinging to the past, and refusing to move on? If this is true, you will both, sadly, need to move on seperately from each other.

Froz, I don't mean to assume anything about the sitch between you and Pat. I hope you don't take offence about my post to you. If so, I will disappear. I assumed you were both trying to forgive each other, but was unaware of continued abuse.

I wish you bot well,

All Blessings,
Jerry

Hello Jerry,

P/A stuff is very hard to understand if you have not been the target of it yourself and experienced it full force yourself. And let me say I hope you never do!


You have to understand that saying this to a P/A spouse is no different from handing them a loaded gun. You have just given them the perfect weapon for hurting you and CONTROLLING THE RELATIONSHIP complete with full instructions on how to use that weapon.


Trust will be restored if/when the P/A person wants to learn mature and healthy ways of dealing with their spouse, instead of using resistance and manipulation and lies to make sure THEY WIN and SPOUSE LOSES. That's how ten-year-olds deal with their parents. That's not how a grownup deals with a husband or a wife. Trust and forgiveness are 100% impossible in cases like this.

And is P/A behaviour deliberate? For most P/As this behaviour becomes so ingrained that it's just as automatic as breathing, but yes, they DO know what they're doing. It IS a choice.
Mulan

Jerry,

What I find offensive is when people make excuses for unacceptable behavior. This enables him to find reasons to consider himself blameless and a victim. For as long as someone feels as though they are blameless, they will not take responsibility. Someone cannot correct behaviors that they do not believe they are responsible for.

The reason that I find this offensive is because it is like HELPING him hurt our marriage. What hurts our marriage hurts me. What hurts our marriage hurts him.

I LOVE THIS MAN, PEOPLE!!!

I am invested in this marriage and I want it to be successful, healthy and productive.

In order for that to happen, I need him to do his part. PLEASE stop enabling him and help him.

Pat,

Man this whole thing is blowing up around us. LOL.

Happy birthday by teh way.

Pat I think what you have run into is the point of diminished returns.

You are trying to "accept the consequences" when accepting them holds no relevence today.

I can explain it like this. When I was a kid I did something wrong. My mom blamed a neighbors kid and I let her.

Twenty years later I felt bad and admitted to my mom it was me and I would accpet any and all consequences.

There were none. My mom couldn't punish me I am a grown man. She couldn't appologize to the neighbor didn't even know where they were.

In all reality the time and place for consequences had long disappeared.

It is dealing with the consequences or our actions in the here and now that is important.

Possibly in the past you didn't. Today you should.

I don't know that you can necessarily say that the behaviors of all P/A's are in fact by choice. I think the book is still out whether or not extreme or habitual cases of P/A are that of a personality disorder. If I recall correctly it kinda jumps on and off the list depending on the most recent studies.

If patriot is a 'diagnosed' P/A then to what extreme is he? Does have complete control over his behaviors or doesn't he. I think everyone is assuming that he does.

Most everyone displays 'some' P/A behavior. On the theory thread I read some say that we have no idea what it's like until we truly experience it on a day to day basis by living with "one". By living with a P/A, not someone who occasionally displays P/A behavior.

If P/A seemingly is the root cause of frozen and patriots marital issues then I would think it quite important to have a professional diagnosis and counseling to deal with that specific 'disorder', if that's what it is.

If patriot is a diagnosed P/A, then no amount of displeasure with his behavior is going to change him. That would be like demanding that a narcisist stop being a narcisist. Ain't gonna happen. You don't change a narcisist. You either learn to live with it or you remove yourself from that relationship.

It's easy to stand back and preach how NOT to be P/A when we are not P/A ourselves. To someone who is not P/A it might seem like a simple choice. Just don't do it. Just be more direct. Just take responsibility. Just say what you mean. Just mean what you say.

It's obviously not that simple for patriot and it may be time for a professional opinion. I don't think that constantly beating him up on these boards is good therapy. Disorder or not, it seems habitual enough and damaging enough to require some behavior specific counseling by a professional.

You can't apply MB when an addiction is present and I honestly don't think you can apply MB when there is a personality disorder present either. You can try, and you might have small successes here and there but the disorder will always be present and will quite often rear it's ugly head.

My poor husband is out to dinner with Patriot and frozen right now. Hope he survives! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I went to the counselor today and found her to be very action-oriented and her method is to move me to a solution.

Which is different from other counselors I have seen where they just listen to you, empathize and you are kind of supposed to figure it out yourself.

The main focus is emotional intimacy. Reconnecting with people. Staying engaged and not putting up walls.

from what I got listening to the counselor, pushing intimacy away is a pretty big root to a number of relationship problems, including affairs.

An affair is an exit strategy. Not from a marriage, but from an intimate relationship. well at least it can be.


Anyway, I have another appointment next week and we get started. The counselor wants to get in and get it done. No need taking froever to do a root canal. Do it and get it over with.

And as far as the aforementioned "poor husband", it was great to see him and we really enjoyed his company. The food was excellent and we look forward to being able to do that again.

he did tell us a story about how you have 'hired' a servant to do your bidding because you're too lazy to clean up after yourself and wanted to learn a foreign language to boot... Are these allegations true?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

bonus dias?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ba ~ my approach to this is simply that Pat himself has said he takes a passive aggressive tact in his marriage.

I doubt, very seriously, that he has a personality disorder. Learned coping skill is what I suspect.

But even if this were true, he has a disorder...he still needs to own it, take responsibility for fixing it, moderating it, medicating it or whatever is done to deal with it.

I have a son with ADHD. I don't let him get away with blaming his disease for bad behavior. I insist that he take responsibility for choices that make his tendencies worse - like drinking sugary, caffienated drinks before entering into a social situation. My son can't help the ADHD problem...but he sure can make choices about what he does about it.

The bottom line is, Pat hurts Froz with this behavior. If he wants to stay married, he has to protect her from his own weaknesses.

If I cause a car accident....I need to step up and provide compensation for my damages and make sure I don't do whatever led to the accident again.

I don't start complaining to the judge, the police officer, or anyone else that will listen about the victim of my accident that hurt my feelings by screaming at me, and that I didn't get credit for driving with my seat belt on, having a current license, up to date insurance and a registered car!

BR,

As I said, it's easy to preach. For the P/A it's a concept that is easier said than done.


Agreed. But what if we are wrong? What if it goes deeper? Who are we to diagnose?


Agreed again. I don't know what type of counselor patriot is seeing. I suspect it is not someone who specializes in personality disorders. Even if it is not a disorder the P/A may be engrained into his behavioral traits over a lifetime.

You are dealing with a child with ADHD. It's probably easier to coach your child through his problem then it is to coax a adult P/A out of a life long behavioral pattern.

I can't imagine that it could be more difficult. I have ADD...talk about ingrained. I was literally born with ADD. There was absolutely nothing about my upbringing or any other outside factor that made this a learned behavior for me. It is so ingrained that my personality itself is ADD.

Does it present a challenge for me in relationships? YOU BET IT DOES! It is a challenge and has even made it very difficult for me to learn MB principles. Try learning to overcome angry outbursts or always giving your spouse your undivided attention (and a slew of other challenges)when you have a neurological condition standing in the way of accomplishing these things.

It is not my fault that I have ADD and it isn't fair that it makes managing life more difficult for me than it might be for others, but it still doesn't remove the consequences for me.

Because of that, I have to work harder to avoid the consequences and to protect Patriot from these consequences as well. It isn't easy, but it can be done. My ADD will never be cured. But I have studied, learned and practiced ways to accomplish protecting both myself and Patriot from the effects and consequences and work very hard at keeping it manageable.

It can be done.

frozen,

Just as BR did, you are comparing apples to oranges. Neither of you are a diagnosed P/A.

Didn't you learn of your ADD as a child and then also learn how to cope with it and manage it while becoming an adult? When did patriot come to realize that he "might" be a habitual P/A?

I think it is ignorant to assume that patriot can control any or all of his passive aggressive behavior with any effectiveness until it is professionally diagnosed and he is 'taught' how to manage it.

ba ~ I am not assuming anything.

I completely agree that if he has a disorder, it should be diagnosed and treated.

He is responsible for doing THAT.

No where have I said just deal with it. I've said go get help. THAT is taking responsibility. He is RESPONSIBLE for getting help if thats what he needs.

True. But I see it as a relevant analogy. Both are obstacles. Both CAN be managed.

The alternative is to suggest that someone is just doomed.



No. I was self-diagnosed about a year ago and had the diagnosis confirmed by a psychologist and an MD.

I sought answers myself because even though I wasn't aware that ADD was the root of a lot of my problems, I still suffered from the consequences and I didn't want the consequences anymore.

ADD, just as is the case with PA, is very difficult to diagnose. After all, only the individual truly knows what is going on in their mind. An outsider can only give an opinion based on a collection of the effects of the symptoms.

For instance, I have a propensity to drive fast all the time...always have. I have received enough traffic tickets in my lifetime to paper my walls.

Does that mean that someone who gets a lot of traffic tickets has ADD? Not at all.

But what if that person also is emotionally erratic, loses things, is late all the time, frequently lapses into periods where they look like they are a million miles away, etc...?

Collectively, these things could be symptoms of something bigger, particularly if there is a history from childhood on.

Same with PA.



When I told him. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />



Maybe so. I certainly had difficulty with losing things all my life, but I still knew it was a problem and not knowing WHY didn't exempt me from suffering the consequences of it.

Because this was a problem (among many) and there were consequences to me and to those close to me, the way I COULD control it was to admit that my behavior was causing problems, take responsibility for them and seek ways to manage them.

Frozen,

From what you wrote, you seem to care little for the label of the behavior, you care that the behavior hurts you. Additionally, it is more important to you that Pat has a different, non-hurtful, way in which to relate to you then for him to say, yes froz, you are correct I did knowingly lie to you and I know that it hurts you. Acknowledgement and even an apology doesn't give a person a free pass to do it again.

From what I have read, and I am certainly just learning not an expert, P/A is not a disorder but a behavior. With ADD or ADHD, there is biological and genetics going on with how the brain is wired. My OS is diagnosed with ADD, he is very similar to his dad, FWH, who thinks he has undiagnosed ADD. The medicine helps to organize the brain in order that the person can process information or stimulus similar to others.

With P/A it is IMHO, that people use this behavior because it works, which encourages more of it. When it stops working, the person is at a loss and claims that they don't know how to behave around you, which is a true statement, they do have to learn new behaviors.

It may help to think of P/A like smoking, which is a bad habit that affects those around the smoker, but most of all the smoker. Now the smoker knows that it is not good, no amount of lecturing or reasoning with them is going to get the smoker to quit. The smoker has to want this for themselves and go out and find a way that works for them. All anyone can do is be supportive.

That being said, non-smokers can choose to remove themselves while the smoker smokes. Or they can have rules/boundaries saying ok, I know you smoke but in our home I want you to go outside and do it. This doesn't save the smoker from themselves but it does protect the non-smoker.

When the P/A person is a spouse, all a spouse can do is draw lines and boundaries and stick to them, it is up to the P/A to be respectful or not, to learn new behaviors or not.

Exactly, nabohio.

What I don't understand is all of the arguing over PA behavior or non PA behavior. Is it a coping mechanism or a personality disorder.

Lets not call Pat PA anymore. Lets focus on what part of the traditional "discription" of PA behavior Pat exhibits and discuss insights for both to overcome these obstacles.

Pat identified a behavior he thinks that may be causing harm.

Pat can you be more specific as to what those behaviors are.

Do you agree to do things with no intention of doing them?
Do you procrastinate?

What behaviors do you think are causing problems.

What plan do you have for stoping them.

Label or no label there is an admitted problem that really should be addressed.

Oh and I quit smoking almost a year ago and I feel great.

Gained some weight but now I am dieting and have lost 5 pounds this week.

Anything is possible if we try.

Excellent. Professional confirmation.


Does patriot recognize a personal history of P/A going back to childhood?


You realized it was a problem from way back. Patriot is perhaps discovering his P/A tendencies just recently. If I understand you correctly, he was not fully aware that me might be a problem P/A until YOU told him you thought he was.


His behavior may have never been a problem before until now. You have been married only a few short years. Suddenly, he is confronted with a potential personality disorder that is seemingly wreaking havoc on his marriage.


I agree, and I hope he is not just taking your word for it that he is P/A as I suspect you are not qualified to diagnose him.

These are questions that would probably be better answered by him.