melody, ya know what, now you are just being confusing

and
don't sound very consistent with me.

now this part i agree with "he should not take her grievances to heart at this time"

and i agree they are not in recovery.

that's 2 things we see eye to eye on!! we are on a roll now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

so, i've said my advice. no reason to further repeat any of it now.

FLTH, there are no magic words that can be used to magically motivate a wayward to come back to the marriage. Trying to use reason with a wayward is like trying to reason with a falling down drunk. A fruitless endeavor.

Rather, the best one can do is follow Plan A as prescribed by Dr. Harley. And that only means showing that one is willing to meet the waywards needs and to cease lovebusters. Additionally, the BS should treat the WS to the stick of Plan A, ie: exposure, financial contraints, legal action, etc. Those are productive Plan A activities.

It is not productive, however, to take to heart the litany of grievances produced by the wayward to justify the affair and manipulate the BS. That does not help the betrayed spouse endure the most traumatic event he will probably ever face. If the BS does not understand this, he will find himself being being manipulated into being the bad guy which will do nothing to help his terrorized mental state. That is like the rape victim being manipulated into thinking that she is to blame for her rape. Can you think of anything more pernicious? Well, it is the same with adultery.

So, his best bet is to do his best Plan A, don't take any fogbabble to heart and prepare for Plan B.

Doesn't sound flippant to me! Sounds like a very appropriate answer to fogbabble.

that gets us to 3 now Melody. i agree with your most recent post 100%.

I related to Captain what impacted me. Nope, no magical answer for everyone. I just shared what impacted me. Whether or not similar thing would help her or not is not something we can predict.

those things i mentioned in my first posts i believe are clearly within the scope of Plan A.

Based on who I am and my unique ENs, it got thru to me. It took still took me a while to get out of my self-dug hole. But I am grateful to DH for those times he kept telling me, when things were at their WORST, that he believed in us.

And I have thanked him for that ONE time, and one was all that was needed because he was so incredibly sincere then, that he was sorry for hurts he had done to me.

he actually woke me up one night, shortly after i had fallen to sleep on the couch, cuz i was sleeping on the couch back then, and in the dark, queitly but so sincerly apologized, kissed my head and left. Just re-counting it like this brings tears to my eyes, tears of gratitude that he was able to do that for me while i was hurting him so much and tears of shame that i was hurting him so much.

so you tell me Melody, if after reading what i just wrote, if you are actually able to understand and relate to what i am saying on any level, why that is not good advice?

ok, my last post referred to your most recent post but your most recent post at the time i wrote my last post is not what your most recent post is after posting mine.

just thought i would clear that up!!! lol

You tell me, FLTH. If you feel it is bad advice, lets hear why you think so.

For example, FLTH, you wrote this to others on this thread:


I would like to hear why you are "disgusted" when all anyone has done on this thread is say the very same things that Dr. Harley recommends all the time. [that a WS will rewrite history and manufacture grievances to justify the affair] This is simply a true fact that needs to be understood by a BS.

Even you agree that one should not take seriously FOGBABBLE, so I would like to hear from you why you believe the advice given on this thread is not good advice?

I find it odd that this man is on the floor bleeding from his WW's affair yet your main concern is that his words to his stabber might sound "flippant.." That is a quite ODD perspective you have there, FLTH. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

where did you get the idea i said my own advice was bad???

melody, have we not been communicating here today. seems like you have gone back to the start.

sorry, i'm not going there with you.

FLTH, you asked me this: Well, I don't know why so I figured you must think it is not good advice. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Melody, you are just acting ***edit*****now and that is not what Captain needs in his thread.

Stepped out for a bit and have missed some good "discussion"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

OK, now we're getting to the heart of the matter.

All, FLTH is right, one of the biggest issues with our past, the past that I HELPED create, was that I didn't listen very well or attentively. When WW speaks, I need to be able to process what's coming out and accurately discern if it's WW babble or DW trying to communicate. There is no "one size fits all" response, and I do NOT want to miss out on catching any cries for help.

FLTH your perspective as a FWW is invaluable and I NEED that input. DW is an amazing person currently possessed by WW. DW often shows her face and THAT's the person I want to show the carrot to - WW gets the stick...

All, I've made TOO MANY MISTAKES over the course of our 17 year (today, btw) marriage. I bear significant responsibility for our marital issues - I know it, I've learned from it, and most importantly, I've changed because of it. Before you all jump in, just know that I AM FULLY CONGNIZANT THAT IT IN NO WAY JUSTIFIES AN AFFAIR - PERIOD.

SO, back to my original question and the subject of this post, is how to listen and properly respond to discussion of grievances of the past.

My take from the great input so far is this:

- if grievances are used as excuses or reasons for affair (which she hasn't really openly said, just implied) then either ignore or remind her that I've forgiven her for her heinious transgressions, why is she trying to make me pay for mine from a decade ago? - thanks WhoMe

- when she's expressing her feelings and testing the waters to see how I'm feeling, I should focus on carrot of Plan A...

something along those lines??

I've managed to bring her back to the "conflict" stage from "withdrawl"...meeting some ENs, while still not enabling A seems productive, no?

What a bizarre thing to say. Do you believe that Capitan needs childish name calling on his thread? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Capitan, the goal of Plan A is to convey the important message that you are WILLING to meet her needs in the future and avoid doing the things that made her unhappy in the past. That does not mean that you take her litany of grievances seriously and allow her to portray you as the BAD GUY. A WS will typically search for grievances and exaggerate them out of all proportion in order to justify the affair. What you must not do is allow her to manipulate you this way.

The best thing to do is stick with Plan A, show her that you are willing to change and are willing to meet her needs in the FUTURE. But, don't bother trying to REASON with her. That will be an exercise in futility.

Capitan, here is a helpful outline:

The Carrot and the Stick of Plan A by Pepperband

The carrot of Plan A


Meeting your wandering spouse's emotional needs.

Making "home" a warm and inviting place to be.

Placing emphasis on what has worked in the marriage.

Showing consistent self improvement in areas where previously lacking.

Stop lovebusting behaviors.

Communicating with a calm reassuring voice and relaxed body language, even in the center of a verbal storm created by the infidel.

Becoming the person any reasonable spouse would want to come home to.

Remaining open to the possibility of recovery.

Offering forgiveness and understanding.



The stick of Plan A


Exposing adultery where it matters most. Exposure that takes the form of a swift and sudden unexpected tsunami of truth.

Not apologizing for exposure or speaking the truth in a kind yet direct way.

Directly communicating the hurt and devastation that the affair has caused.

Not accepting blame for the infidel's choice to become adulterous.

Let the consequences of adultery and infidelity fall freely upon the heads of the adulterous.

Establishing boundaries that disallow the affair to effect children of the marriage, financal security of the marriage, and otherwise ruin innocent bystanders.

Standing up to infidelity as a beast that must be slayed for the good of the family.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Plan A is both a *carrot* and a *stick*.

Hey Captain! see now you are the person we should be talking to. (sorry about the interactions you had to witness between melody and i. i should of stopped long a few responses ago.)

i hope something i said does help. I know this is terrible for you to have to hear, but that apology i wrote about occured possible a full yr before i confessed. it impacted me on the spot, but i was stubborn, i would let myself accept the impact. i wrote about it though, how much it impacted me at the time. and from time to time i re-read my own words. until one specific night late in Nov 2003, that between re-reading my account of how DH apologized to me while i was (unknown to him) doing what i was doing and finally whole heartdly asking God to if nothing else just help me get rid of all the anger i was holding onto in my heart. anger at myself for all is was doing, anger at all the pain in my life, and yes, anger at my DH just for existing near my painful existence instead of letting me crawl into a hole and die. (he just would not agree that divorce was a good idea!!! the nerve. and i needed him to agree, i wouldn't act towards divorce on my own. he would even say, don't get your own lawyer, if we are going to do this we get one lawyer. we have loved each other enough to not put lawyers between us taking money we should keep in the family).

and that night something did happen. God really did help release that anger. A few days later i found MB, but it did take till March of the next yr to confess some stuff, and then Oct of same yr to confess everything.

i really really hate that this is my story Captain.

i'm only sharing in the hopes it might help you.

I'm sorry your WW if putting you thru all this pain. and until such a time she can apologive for herself, please accept mine. sounds stupid but anyway...

i really do hope you all can have a good weekend.

i am glad there are those here that can help you in your path in ways i cannot since i am "on the other side of the fence". but i can try to help in my own way and i hope something i have said has helped.

Melody??? "willing to meet her needs in the FUTURE." ????


then the very next post you list Plan A:


why are you adding the words "in the future"?????

ummm hello.....

"Offering forgiveness and understanding."

geeze, that sounds like my very first post. you know, the one you tried to turn around and ask me to explain why i thought my own advice was bad....

what is it with you Melody???

and great, now i've been editted, FIRST TIME.

that's what i get for trying to talk to you Melody.

Not like i used a 4 letter word or called you anything that would need to be bleeped out on TV.

unbelievable!!!

Captain - HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!!

i hope the future has more (and happier) ones in store for you.

DH and I will celebrate our 21st next friday.

ummmmmmm, I believe you were slapped by the mods for name calling, dear. Thats what you get for name calling, an action that you chose all on your own. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I will be glad to explain to one who has never been in Plan A, but feels qualified to render "advice" anyway.

See, when one's spouse is in the throes of an addictive affair, rarely can the BS meet his needs. Therefore, the BEST they can do is assure the WS they would be WILLING to meet those needs when the affair ends IN THE FUTURE. [the affair has not ended in the present, btw, so this would be a future event] This is the impression that the BS will leave with the WS when they go dark in Plan B. [and 85% will need to go into Plan B]

Hope that clears things up for you.