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#1933540 08/30/07 11:43 AM
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My wife says to me the other day that she does not see herself as a good person. When I asked her why, she said she had ruined the lives of three men.

The first was her ex-husband, who she divorced for good cause. I know the circumstances and she did right. He didn't think so.

The second was me because of her infidelity and the third was the OM because she was not stronger at the time.

Ok, after that explanation, I told her that I did think she was a good person who had made mistakes just like all of us do.

My question is simple. Was she fishing, really professing her view of herself or what? Care to give me your opinion? What can I do to help her?

Larry

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Yes,

What makes you good or bad is not the mistakes you make, because we all make them.

It is what you do to repair the damages your mistakes cause that determines MY opinion of you.

Good people take responsibiliy for their mistakes and make amends IMVHO.

They do not complain tehy are a bad person. If you think you are it means you need to do more to make amends.


BS 38
FWW 35
D Day 10/03
Recovery started 11/06
3 boys 12, 8 and a new baby


When life hands you lemons make lemonade then try to find the person life hands vodka and have a party.
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Larry...my ONLY concern with her statement is that she is howing any concern for the OM. She did not ruin his life...he was part of the conspiracy that could have ruined yours.

Her feelings...except as I noted above...are normal and healthy. I don't think she was fishing as much as she was expressing displeasure with the person she was. She wasn't a good person...she is now.

medc #1933543 08/30/07 12:14 PM
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Hmmmmm............What makes a good person? That is a loaded question. I think a person can be considered bad depending on what they do. By just discounting everything as a mistake is not a good idea. In that case, what would make a BAD person???

JMHO

medc #1933544 08/30/07 12:16 PM
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MEDC

She sees him as weak, very weak and basically immature. My wife is an RN, caregiver by nature. She also sees him as a liar and a cheat. On the other hand, he has a son we both care about. She has often said she should have been stronger, so she assumes responsibility. I guess that is where she gets it.

Larry

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Without knowing her, I could only speak for what I might mean by saying that.

But first, I would suggest you have this conversation with her, asking her and prodding her to get to the true meaning and intentions behind her comment. Maybe she doesn't even know herself right off the top of her head, it might need a little more work.

When I say things like that, and I often do, I am either explicitly or subconciously seeking validation and affirmation. I think that when someone is told over and over that they are wrong, that they are a bad person, that something is all their fault, that they are not good enough in some/many ways, that they are not meeting some arbitrary standards . . . that they will believe it. I know I do.

I think that people make choices, decisions, whatever, for a reason. Every single time. They aren't your reasons or anyone else's, they are solely the reasons of the person who makes them.

I think that people like to feel understood, they like for the people that they care about and who care about them to be interested in why they did something, and why it made sense to them at the time.

The thing is, you DO NOT have to agree with their reasons, you simply need to listen to them, and tell them that "yeah, ok, I can see why you would choose that". I think that when the response is simply "I don't care why you did it, it was wrong, and there is no way you can justify it" that the person will not feel safe, they will not feel understood or cared for, and will feel very poorly about themselves.

I don't think that very many people see a distiction between Validating someone and Agreeing/Endorsing/Supporting someone. I think there is a very large difference though.

To me, Validation is the ability to listen, truly listen, to someone tell you as much as they can about why they made the decision that they did. Then, from THEIR perspective, not using (as much as is possible) any of your own thoughts or reasoning or anything else, when you can truly say "ahh, I get it now. I can see how you came to that conclusion", that person will be validated.

Validating is, for the most part, outside of the realm of right or wrong, outside of morals, outside of agreements. The only important thing is that you listen, you make sure you hear what they are intending to tell you by confirming it with them, and then honestly tell them "I understand".

I think that people can get uncomfortable with the idea of validation because they feel that it removes responsibility. But I think it is monumentaly important to know "why" someone did or chose what they did. I think that some people feel that "because they are a bad person" or "because they are a selfish person" or "because they are a worthless excuse for a human being" is a good enough answer. For me it isn't.

Everyone's choices make sense, all the time, in all things. And I think that merely saying that someone did it "because they are bad/selfish/worthless/whatever" is absolving them far more easily than getting into the true reasons why.


FWH me 30 (EA 7/07) BW 30 Married 1999 Son 4 Son born Aug '07 My story thread DD Aug 6, 07 NC Aug 6, 07 Withdrawal & in recovery
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She sees him as weak, very weak and basically immature. My wife is an RN, caregiver by nature. She also sees him as a liar and a cheat. On the other hand, he has a son we both care about. She has often said she should have been stronger, so she assumes responsibility. I guess that is where she gets it.

_________________

it sounds like she feels responsible...almost as if he were a minor.
she blames herself because she should have known better.

sounds like she is stuck in guilt and feels ashamed of herself. is she the child of an alcoholic parent?

if she is working thru what she is feeling and not getting lost in blaming herself, shame is actually a healing emotion.

nia17 #1933547 08/30/07 12:59 PM
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Larry, I think I would take her comment on face value. She might be broaching those ideas just so you'll rush to her "defense" and assure her she isn't what she suggests, but I think perhaps she's beginning to understand on a very deep level just what she allowed herself to become and what she let herself do. To me, her statements constitute some serious introspection, which I view as a very hopeful sign in your, and her, recovery process. I base that on my belief that anyone who engages in adultery is a person who manages to suppress his or her basic sense of honesty and integrity for a period of time. To me, it's a good thing that someone who suppressed that integrity begins to wonder how and why he or she allowed that to happen.

Now, as to what you should do, I’d have in mind the old saying that “good people do bad things” but I would keep the fact that there is redemption for those bad acts right at the forefront of my thoughts. And I would act accordingly. I don’t know how religious you and your wife are, but you might find assistance with your pastor if you are. If not, a good counseling professional can help light your wife’s progress along the pathway of discovering what it was that “convinced” her she could be deceitful and duplicitous for a while…and, more importantly, how to make herself “bulletproof” against such treachery in the future. The assistance provided by SH, for instance, would be invaluable.

Good luck, Larry. Best wishes.

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Ok, after that explanation, I told her that I did think she was a good person who had made mistakes just like all of us do.

My question is simple. Was she fishing, really professing her view of herself or what? Care to give me your opinion? What can I do to help her?

Larry

I wouldn't wager a guess about why she said this, but I will give you my thoughts on it. First off, her actions were not a "mistake." They were premeditated actions. Some of her actions were not wrong, though, and oddly she views them as such. For example, it may be that divorcing her first H was not wrong yet she castigates herself for that.

But here is the thing, Larry. She was a bad person to do some of those things. That is simply the truth and she knows this. That should not be glossed over. Because if we are going to pretend like good people do bad things, then we have to also pretend that bad people do good things.

But bad people can change into GOOD people by REDEEMING THEMSELVES and that is a sign of CHARACTER. Your wife REDEEMED HERSELF by making amends to you. Only a GOOD PERSON would do that. And only a good person would be heartbroken for hurting others. She clearly is heartbroken. She has changed into a GOOD PERSON by redeeming herself.

That is how I accept my own sorry past as a recovering alcoholic. I must be brutally honest about who I really was BACK THEN if I am to take credit for who I am TODAY. I am a big enough girl to be brutally honest and I suspect she is too.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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is she the child of an alcoholic parent?

Yes, and he is a serial cheater and wife beater who is now reformed. He also had the nasty habit of beating the crap out of my wife when she was a minor. Her lack of self confidence comes directly from that jerk. I don't think that even today he has expressed total approval toward her, which imho, she deserves.

Once she came out of the fog - heck even DURING the fog, she saw the OM as weak and the relationships as hopeless. She carried on because she was in a trap and didn't know how to get out, she says. A wrong impulse brought on by character weakness developed into a garbage deal.

Great comments everyone. I am enhaling them and thinking.

We have a close personal friend who is a counselor by profession. He has helped her with her self esteem issues and other stuff. HE says she is a first class person who made a no class error in judgement.

Larry

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Hi Larry

Squid avers she is a bad person too.
But this also excuses her from awkward self improvement work.

"I am a bad person,We should just accept that".

Self conviction is good for a FWS for a while, but it can just be a technique used deliberately or subconsciously to avoid self-improvement and incur pity and ruth.

Watch carefully for that mate.Its a pretty sheer wall from where I'm standing.Still working out how we scale it.

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Yes, and he is a serial cheater and wife beater who is now reformed. He also had the nasty habit of beating the crap out of my wife when she was a minor. Her lack of self confidence comes directly from that jerk. I don't think that even today he has expressed total approval toward her, which imho, she deserves.

Given what you've said about your wife's FOO, I think you can take her statements more or less at face value. Some people seem unable to accept any fault within themselves. Others, have a hard time accepting that any fault can possibly lie any where else - generally because of the strong messages they received growing up.

Has your wife received any counselling? You mentioned your friend but not whether he was in a professional therapist role or just as a friend role.

I agree with Bob Pure, I think you should watch that type of statement carefully (given your wife's past) as she may sink into depths of depression and not be able to bubble back up with out careful reconstruction from a trained therapist. Avoidance is one method we humans use to handle pain.

Overall, how would you say your wife's mental state is other than these questions? How is she responding to you on a day to day basis with regard to marital issues?

Mys

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Children of alcoholics often grow up feeling poweful and responsible for all of the bad things in their lives. They've been told this truth from the time they were children. If you were a good girl...mommy and daddy wouldn't fight...If you were a good girl...daddy would have stayed....if you were a good girl...I would not have to cry.

etc .. etc...

The dysfunctional adults in the life of a child of an alcoholic are quite happy to pin the blame on a powerless child...whose self esteem get destroyed in the process.

It is such a juxtaposition...no sense of self worth, but an enormous sense of power and responsibility.

It is grandiose self talk that eats a person alive - literally.

In an otherwise healthy adult, I'd write it off to some temporary shame and guilt. But she sounds depressed...and it likely will not get better without intervention of some sort. Has she considered joining ACOA?


~ Pain is a given, misery is optional ~
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Larry,

From a communicative standpoint (my job):

Women often broach topics using indirect statements or hypothetical questions. It is a way to open discussions of a difficult nature in a seemingly neutral way, often done so utilizing a self-depricating statement.

Often what they seek is a discussion on a topic about something that they fear - many times involving their own bodies or behavior, sometimes the behavior or emotions/feelings of their husbands regarding the marriage (or their wives).

An example of a hypothetical question (which most men I know say they hate, because they would rather just be asked what the wife wants to know!):

"If we were single and didn't know me, and you met me, do you think you would ask me out?"

What she is probably really asking about is: Do you still find me attractive/interesting? Enough to still pursue me?
The fear is loss of attractiveness, or fear of distancing in the relationship, perhaps.

Just an example.

Your wife's question probably is complicated and has several layers that I would see.

1. Surface layer to me would say, take it as presented. She feels guilt over her own behavior.

2. At a somewhat secondary layer: More in depth analysis to me reveals that she is seeking approval and support from you. Not so much you telling her that it was fine, that what she did, she "made a mistake". That was okay, but from what my analysis would say would be that she was more likely seeking affirmation that you are still able to forgive her. That your anger is reducing, that your forgiveness remains stable and perhaps is growing, and that you are at some level beginning to allow this transgression to fade. My sense here, from a distance of course, and without further writing or conversations to fully understand and analyze.

3. Something I think may have been exposed here in terms of the underlying fear: Fear of a pattern of behavior or feelings on her part, that she has recognized. You might want to explore this with her. Because she mentioned three men, and while you see certain things with the XH, there may be something that she has uncovered in her musings about her behavior/feelings through this affair that have caused her to review the past divorce and her own role in that marriage. This is actually good for you - because she may be more cognizant of her past behaviors now, and how she carried them into this marriage, and now wants to talk about them with you. She may have recognized those behaviors with OM as well, and this is why she has linked the "three men". Ask her this question. Might be worth listening to her thoughts on this one.

4. The statement regarding her own strength in the relationship with the other man interests me. She said she hurt him because she was weak. I am guessing that this has to do with #3.

Hope this helps.

Schoolbus

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The depth of human understanding on this forum continues to amaze me. I have learned so much here.

Overall, my wife is a happy camper. She does get depressed from time to time for various reasons but no more so than most folks other than the ones who are "Happy" all the time. Right now she is on a campaign that the house be cleaner. Er, we have three kids, 13, 11 and 4 almost five. A really clean house is Impossible, with a capital I. But she whines about it. Heck, she cleans up after some of the other RNs where she works, so it is just a bit OCD.

We spend a lot of time talking. We spend a lot of time doing family stuff, as much as possible with her working nights. She is sleeping so she can go to work tonight and I took the kids to Church. She has a certain level of contentment with that although she wishes she could be with us. With her schedule and the kids, our love life is not as much as we would like it to be, but it is great when we can borrow the time. And we plot and scheme to make it happen.

She went to a couple of counseling sessions but was not impressed. She reacts to coaching far better than counseling. In point of fact, she thought the last one she went to should be shot before blessing troubled people with their off the wall advice.

She is happy with her job. She is happy with the progress we are making to finish restoring this 100 year old house we both love. She does continue with introspection. For example, out of the blue, she announced that she had a self destructive streak. When it became obvious that she was going to successfully complete her BSN was when she made the decision to give in to the relative who was teasing and chasing her. She says that was acting out failure.

I have noticed that she is getting way better at standing up to her father. She also decided to set a better example of cooperation at work than the unit was used to. It is working and she actually got some of the credit. That blew her mind.

What I am going to do is go back and memorize everyone's comments and then when opportunity strikes see if I can draw her out. Yea, she ruined my life, temporarily. She also helped me get back my life.

Thanks everyone.

Larry

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My wife says to me the other day that she does not see herself as a good person. When I asked her why, she said she had ruined the lives of three men.

The first was her ex-husband, who she divorced for good cause. I know the circumstances and she did right. He didn't think so.

The second was me because of her infidelity and the third was the OM because she was not stronger at the time.

Ok, after that explanation, I told her that I did think she was a good person who had made mistakes just like all of us do.

My question is simple. Was she fishing, really professing her view of herself or what? Care to give me your opinion? What can I do to help her?

Orchid: I get the sense you are not sure if she is sincere. Easy to understand given the fact that she was or is a WS. So the real issue is not that she is a bad person but what is she doing to become to stay as a good person?

See that will eliminate your fear and question. In other words her actions should prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that she has put her bad past behind her. If she hasn't or you can't tell then you can't answer her, you should direct her to get IC (have her call Jennifer).

It may or may not have t/d with her childhoood issues or past. This is a very common WS tactic. Make sure you learn to tell the different. Which is why HOW you reapond is just as important.

Since you are close to the issue, it w/b better to get a solid IC (i.e. Jennifer @ MB) to help give you and her clarity until you can tell beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Quote
She sees him as weak, very weak and basically immature. My wife is an RN, caregiver by nature. She also sees him as a liar and a cheat. On the other hand, he has a son we both care about. She has often said she should have been stronger, so she assumes responsibility. I guess that is where she gets it.

Orchid: Ok, so she sees him as weak....so what? He is. End of debate. The questions need to be refocused.

So what are you doing to help you keep your clarity? You need a clear mind, calm heart and lots of patience. Learning about reverse babble, POJA and RH are good tools also. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

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Hi Larry,

How are you doing? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

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