P/A has a lot to do with ANGER, living in ANGER, acting out subtly in ANGER, and illiciting ANGER.

MB approach can work to coax the spouse out of the anger phase, because one spouse is only letting their GIVER out. The problem occurs when the PA spouse is EXPECTED engage. When there is EXPECTATION, there is conflict, and conflict avoidance, and avoidance of the expected behavior or task, causing the other spouse to become upset, or ANGERED (the response the PA is looking for, to validate that they are no good.)

In other words, MB approach can work, initially, but the greater problem is not solved with this approach.

Mulan chooses to stay for her reasons, just as anyone chooses to stay with someone with problems, be they emotional, physical or chemical.

Many people remain with alcoholics, accepting that they have no power over their spouse. They could make a boundary to not be with an active alcoholic, and the enforcement could be to leave if that boundary is crossed. Some choose not to have that boundary. You won't know until you are IN that dynamic what you will do. No amount of MB can fix that sitch, but it can make it liveable to the spouse that is not the alcoholic, if the spouse with the problem joins in enough to satisfy the level of need of the other spouse.

My girlfriend has been asking me how long I am willing to live like this. For me, it is not forever, and changes do have to occur. I think it's unrealistic to think that your spouse does not have to make changes ALSO. I agree with Noodle on that. I disagree with how you request the changes you need. I am not who I was, I need something different, something more. I am willing to do MY BEST to give what my husband needs, but just as he has needs, I need to be loved, the show of love.

MB principles only work when both spouses jump on the bandwagon; some spouses will not. That's just the way it is. It does not always work.

Noodle,

Ok here is a sitch. My wife and I have agreed from now on she won't undermine my authority with the kids.
We have also agreed to discuss things and if we disagree we won't act.

So I don't like those flat billed hats. I told my son I wouldn't be buying him one. If he wants one he can use his own money to buy the hat. I also told him I dont' want him wearing it around me. My wife knew of this as well and agreed with me at the time.

I come home from work my son looks me in the eye and says "I got a flat bill". I really thought he was joking. I laughed. He said no really MOM ordered me a flatbill today.

So now she agreed not to undermine my authority. She did.
We agreed to discuss the situations like this. She didn't. Knowing I don't like that.

So I walked in to discuss the sitch with her.
I didn't need to put her into conflict immediately she did that for me.

Me:Did you really buy him a flat bill hat?
FWW: Yes. He is a kid and that is what kids are wearing and I think it is ridiculous that you won't let him wear them.
Me: But
FWW: All the kids wear them it is ridiculous you won't let him.
Me: I never said he
FWW: Yes you did you said he can't wear them. Look how we dressed when we were kids. I think you are being unreasonable.
Me:I have let you speak. Now I intend on speaking or I will end this conversation. YOu have now used the word ridiculuous in regards to me and my beliefs which is uncalled for. You may disagree but that does not make my POV ridiculous.

You agreed not to undermine me or over ride me. You did.

I never said he couldn't have the hat. I said we would not pay for it. I also never said he couldn't wear it. I asked him to respect me and not wear it around me.

I don't see what is ridicoulus about that.

If you disagreed you should have told me BEFORE you acted.

FWW: So it always has to be your way. I am so sick of always being wrong and never doing anything right.
It was a hat, just a stupid hat and you blow it out of proportion.

Me: It is not about the hat it is about you not agreeing with me an doing what you want to do.

Her: If I am so bad why are you here.

Me: It is about you not agreeing with me. Agreeing not to move forward. Then doing what you agreed not to.

Her: I am sorry...... It is just ridiculous.

Me: ok I asked you not to say my opinion or POV is ridiculous.....how would you like it if I start calling you names like%#$@ or @#$ or @#$@#$.

You are trying to get me angry so it seems like I am blowing up about a hat when you know it isn't about the hat.

But TA...

These ENs are not designed to keep you breathing...they are designed to keep you in love.

Of course a person can survive not having them met...but will they still love you?

Is that the real question here?

Will you give to me unconditionally?

I assume that the answer is no. I do not know what would be the result of my choosing to not meet a need willfully for my H but I do know that if he chose to not meet mine all h*ll would break lose at the noodle home.

I didn't sign up to be tested and neglected on principle and I have no intention of cooperating should that ever be suggested.

Why not test his character [that is really the crux of the matter] and investment by asking him to contribute MORE rather than giving yourself permission to contribute less?

I completely agree.

I think that if you have not had the experience of living with the absolute h*ll that a P/A spouse will happily create for you, you will never understand what we are talking about and will be sure that WE are the one who are sick and must be making this stuff up.

I wish we were.

We cannot control these people, noodle. If we could, this would be real easy. We can't just make them stop.

Saying, "Why not just LEAVE?" would make all of this real simple. If everybody just left when their spouses were stupid and destructive and cheated in their marriages (*as most people SAY they would*) there would be no need for MB and nobody would be posting on this board.

People like me and frognomore have made the choice and accepted the extremely difficult challenge of living with a P/A spouse. We are not just "taking it", but are using every tool we can find to defeat the monster that is this behaviour and make things better. BrambleRose, in a similar manner, has made the choice and accepted the extremely difficult challenge of living with an alcoholic spouse. Her posts have been helpful to me and to frog and to many others here.

And this is NOT saying that we have just chosen to roll over and be doormats and accept abuse in the name of staying married. Frog and I are standing up like superheroes to the beast that is P/A *now that we've learned how to do that*, and BR has laid down strict boundaries to make it possible for her to live with an alcoholic spouse.

All of us are here because we are trying to support each other and trying to make our marriages better - because we just could not bring ourselves to leave. Does that make us weak, damaged or co-dependent? I don't know. Maybe it does.

But we're still here and we're still married and we still have our families, imperfect as they are.
Mulan

Who's talking about abuse?

The whole point about most adult P/A behaviours is their calculated nebulousness. For such behaviour to be rise to the level of identifiable abuse would defeat the object. Everything is about 'interpretation', and unless you have a cast-iron grip on your own reality, it's hard to pin your sense of injury on anything concrete.

Example: a husband has a 'habit' of nodding off to sleep while his wife is talking. Mid-sentence. When she points out politely that she finds this rude and hurtful, he apologises but claims exhaustion. Since this is 'just about' within the realms of possibility, and she can't prove otherwise, she lets it go...again and again...while noting that he never nods off when they're in company and she's talking, or when anyone else is speaking.

This is not 'abusive' in my sense of the word, and I doubt it would hold up in court as 'unreasonable behaviour', but it's infuriating behaviour to deal with, and it's more than likely an attempt to hurt and humiliate the wife without being held to account for it. I can't see that saying 'I know you can hear me out' would alter the dynamics of the situation. Eventually, the only recourse is to say "I find that rude", and walk away, thereby defining a boundary.

The P/A's cloak of innocence is standard uniform.

TA

If you read frog's example above, you will see how his wife has

1) gone behind her husband's back to buy their son a hat when she knew full well that frog was opposed to such a hat

2) completely disrepected her husband by disregarding his feelings on the situation and siding with her child instead of with her husband

3)completely controlled her husband with her actions and become the Victim of her husband's anger at her actions. She has taken NO responsiblity whatsoever for those same actions, which is exactly what she wanted.

This is a grown woman, but again she is behaving like a sneaky ten-year-old putting something over on Daddy instead of behaving like an adult.

It's really very, very sad and pathetic. Marriage is for grownups. It's a real shame she has chosen not to behave like one. But she won. She got what she wanted. She should be very very happy.

I sure hope she is happy because SOMEBODY had better be happy out of all this.

It's not her husband - he's angry and miserable at being defeated and disrespected again.

It's not her son - he's been forced by HER actions into siding with one parent or the other (a horrible thing to do to any child).

So it had bloody well be her, and if it's not, then what is she doing this for?
Mulan

"Calculated nebulousness" - that's perfect!

TA is exactly right. P/A *is* emotional abuse of the first order, but as she said it is abuse cloaked in innocence so that it's very, very, very hard to prove.

THAT is why yanking that cloak aside and essentially calling bullsh*t on this behaviour is so very, very effective.
Mulan

I've lived w/ a P/A H for 13 years. It truly is something you can't understand until you've lived w/ it. It's a subtle cruel game, and the P/A person is a master at it.

I think that's why it takes years to figure out what's going one. You were playing a game that you never knew you were in, w/ no set rules.

It's like when little kids play "pretend" and they keep changing the rules so they can't lose. My daughter likes to make up games, but if someone else starts 'winning' she adds a new rule, that of course, makes sure she 'wins.'

It feels kinda like that but you're dealing w/ a grown person and the stakes are much higher.

So, when you're old and ill and unable to meet many, if any of those needs, do you expect your H to 'fall out of love with you'? If you were unconscious in hospital for a period, going through a messy menopause, if he had to be away for a while for family illness...how long would you expect him to hold onto his sense of love for you? A day? A week? A year? Twenty years?


Few of us would expect our spouses to put up with a wholly thankless relationship forever. But I believe we should expect our spouse to cope with not having their needs met - AND STILL BEING IN LOVE WITH US - for a reasonable length of time. If a man needs SF 3 times a day, and is unable to cope with his wife's absence for a month without visiting a prostitute, would you judge that this was a valid EN fulfilment? Or would you judge that his need is more than a marriage can sustain?

TA

It's not as if you KNOW this person is like this when you marry them. I certainly did not. I keep trying to explain how I feel subtly controlled, how I'm pushed to anger, but it's so subtle, it is hard to define, but it IS happening.

I SHOULDN'T feel this way, he has done nothing. Maybe, just maybe, that is part of the problem.

Mulan,

I do not believe that you and frog ARE standing up to it like superheroes...I believe you are looking for ways to cope with and manage unhealthy and hurtfull behaviors so that you don't have to accept the potential loss of the relationship on real terms.

TA,

This is once again all about being willing to go with and trust your judgement and enforce your boundaries.

Breach of agreement is breach of agreement.

I consider broken promises to be abusive to the relationship in the extreme.


Frog,

Let me show you how to commandeer that runaway ship...ok?

Don't dismiss me because I am not married to a passive agressive man.

That is as ridiculous as me dismissing YOU because YOU ARE married to one so obviously you don't know how to 1 recognise an attack when you see it or 2 enforce a boundary..right?

Power dynamics are what they are regardless of how you come to be aware of them.

This is what I would do in your situation...

First of all do NOT fall into the trap of explanation.

Either you have an agreement with her or you do not.

If you have an agreement that these things will be discussed and pojad before action is taken then you hold her accountable to that...do not be sidetracked into talking about the relative merit of the stupid hat or your REAL motivations.

Frog: Wife, son says that you bought him xxxx, is that correct?

Frogwife: Yes, and i think it's just stupid that you blah blah blah...

Let all of this crap roll off your back. Do not engage here.

Frog: Well, here is the problem. We have an agreement to poja these issues and you have promised not to undermine my authority. At this time you have broken our agreement to poja these matters and you have broken your promise to me that you would not undermine my authority.

Frogwife: That is NUTS! So what I need your permission to buy MY SON a hat blah blah blah...

Again let it roll off your back...this is a misdirection effort. When she is quiet again you can say...

Frog: Are you willing to make amends and take responsibility for your broken promise and your broken agreement or are you not willing?

And then you let her decide.

If she made an agreement that she didn't like...that's her problem...she can learn to be honest.

If she made an agreement she never intended to carry out...that's her problem...she can learn to not defraud people.

If she made a mistake but is willing to correct that mistake she can make amends.

Amends in this case would look like retrieving the hat from your son and apologising to him for giving it and then taking it away. She should NOT put the blame on you but should take responsibility herself for using inappropriate behaviors which resulted in him suffering a loss.

She should then apologise to you for breaking her promise and for breaking her agreement.

At that point amends have been made...the wrong action has been corrected and there is no reason you can't move on with life as usual.

If she is UNWILLING to do this then you really have to be honest with yourself about what the maturity level and investment level of the person you are living with really is.

If you settle for being her b*tch that's all you will ever be to her and she will never respect you. Not today and not 5 years from now. You are not being a superhero you are hiding from reality.

Harley is a great advocate of HEALTHY CONFLICT.

This is how healthy conflict works.

Noodle,

Got another one.

Wife and I are struggling with our M. She wants to try to have a little girl.
I say it isn't a good time. We need to work on us. I am almost leaning toward being done but lets wait and see.
She says she hates the pill....several times. I say if you go off pill I need to get snipped. Every time we have the conversation.
She says in passing one day she might go off the pill.

That was the entire conversation. I am now the proud soon to be father of a baby boy.

I of course feel like an idiot but I did let my gaurd down.

So now I get angry....

I am not happy with it to be honest and I am not looking for a magic cure from you or anyone else.

I am dealing with it. I do love her, with the PA behavior though it isn't all I want it to be.

TA,

If I were laying in a vegetative state [which is pretty much what it would take to render me unable to meet needs at all] then I would expect him to begin to detach and to fall out of love with me starting on day 1 and continuing until he was completely out of love with me and beginning to prepare for me to die or shifting into a caretaker role.

That is what people do.

I don't relish the idea of him pining beside my bed while I lay in a coma...I want him to live his life and to do that he will have to move on and let me go.

Sure I'm going to get old and ill...and he's going to get old and ill right along with me.

I would expect chronic illness to take it's toll...I have worked with too many people who were sick or in pain or depressed to kid myself about what life with them is like on a daily basis.

It is unrealistic to expect someone to have self sustaining "in love" and in fact the few that do are generally unhealthily invested in fantasy rather than the flesh and blood individual who is the object of their desire.

it seems TA...to me..it seems like a natural and appropriate process of detachment that is designed to allow one person to go on living when they are robbed of the person they have been sharing a life with for whatever reason.

Frog...

You got screwed because you allowed someone who wasn't trustworthy to protect you instead of protecting yourself until they had demonstrated trustworthy behavior consistantly enough to extend that trust.

I know it sucks and I'm sorry.

Even if she HAD been acting in a trustworthy manner...if you are 100% certain that now is a no go for you then it is YOUR JOB to step up to the plate and refuse to have unprotected BY YOU [with a rubber and spermicide even though it doesn't feel as good] sex.

This is once again how you create HEALTHY conflict while protecting your minimum standard.

Noodle we crossed posted.

I do let it roll off my back.

By the way the conversation I described took about an hour.

I look at it like this. I have two kids, one on the way.

I am not miserable in my M as long as I know what is going on.

I know the game. Right now she hasn't invested the time to change.

We have SF I lowered my expecations of her and things are fine.

In situations like this I hold my course.

I did get an apology, the amends not so much.

What you are describing cure the syptom not the disease.

It is a continual pattern of behavior that exhibits itself in a multitude of ways. I so far have not even scratched the surface with all of the ways it exhibits itself with her.

Conflict is not healthy with a PA person is what you don't udnerstand.

We had 2 to 3 MC sessions discussing the "way" I speak to her.

I told the MC if I raise my voice she tells me not to yell and talk to her like that. If I yell forget about it. If I speak with an annoyed inflection she doesn't like that.

So I try to talk in a calm cool collected even tone and now she doesn't like that.

So essentially we talk about the way I am talking to her every time I don't like something she is doing.

So we had a disagreement and we are driving, I am talking in my calm cool collected voice. She informed me she didn't like it.

I said if I talk with any emotion she finds fault in that too. She kept avoiding whatever the true reason for the disagreement and kept talking about my pattern of speech.
She likes to say I don't talk like a regular person.

I asked her if she wanted me to speak like most people would if they were presented with this situation. She said yes.

I raised my voice gave her the come to jesus speech and let her have it.

Then I had no right to yell at her. LOL.

The point is D is not an option right now.

We have two kids and one on the way.

I manage the conflict.

I am not a hero. I am not a martyr I am not a survivor.

I am me dealing with an M that has flaws.

I am sure your M is not perfect. Nobody's is.

Mine has this element to it that yours doesn't.

Frog...this IS the cure to the disease.

People PA because it works.

When it stops working they either stop PAing or leave the relationship to find someone who will read their lines correctly.

Your description of how the conversation went looked like a kid getting bullied and taking it.

This *IS* childish behavior...what makes it dysfunctional is that it is persisting into adulthood where the stakes are higher.

The reason it persisted is because it was not disciplined and corrected but rather fed and enforced.

It is not an unhappy coincidence that your PA wife married a man who would not require different behavior from her.

She is not an invalid...she is capable of apologising and capable of controlling herself long enough to keep her agreements.

Let's not inject pathology to excuse unwillingness to require more.

She is not going to FEEL like changing and then change.

The only way for her to embrace using different tactics is if she is unable to use the ones she is familiar and comfortable with.

That is not symptom treatment...that is behavioral psychology. It works...MB is founded on it.

If you faint and balk from doing what needs to be done because you have already invested too much...well then in ten years time what do you think will be different except maybe then you'll have 4 children instead of three and even more of your doors of opportunity will be closed.

Courage man.

Noodle if my wife were PA or not I dont' know that a grown person would want to be disciplined by their spouse.

Fed and enforced I disagree. I am able to make my point and make her aware she crossed my boundry, without her becoming the victim.

That is what she wants fed. That does not exist.


Agreed and as we have a disagreement and I stay the course her tactic didn't work.

As they don't work she has started to make some changes in our interaction.

This is an engrained behavior.

So far from what I have seen you can't just walk into a PA person and tell them stop.


Anyone can apologize but it doesn't mean squat if they do it again.

As far as keeping agreements you would be surprised.

I am managing my sitch. Things aren't great but they arent' bad.

My intention was not do discuss my sitch and get advice on how to deal with it. It was to discuss the reality of PA behavior.

I appreciate your thoughts. I have tried some if not all of them.

Now we are to the point where she is identifying her own PA behvior. It is just deeply entrenched and backslides occur.

Mulan:

Why would it be considered WEAK to LOVE YOUR HUSBAND?



My life...my marriage is far from PERFECT...

Where there is GREATNESS..there is a STRUGGLE...

Where's that ELEANOR ROOSEVELT QUOTE???

Back in a minute..

These are the MBer's RULES FOR A SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE..which WE work on...

I get the impressions that in their view this is not only limited to CERTAIN MARRIAGES..but to ALL MARRIAGES that are SUCCESSFUL...

FOUR RULES FOR SUCCESSFUL MARRIAGE

I like this Mimi. It speaks to REALITY, not to what we wish or what we want, but what IS.

I think it's easy to say to leave when the offending spouse doesn't comply, super easy. It's much more difficult to learn to set up boundaries and enforce them. It's going to take me a great deal of time and effort to learn what my boundaries even ARE, much less how to enforce them. With that comes introspection, what do I need, what am I unwilling to accept.

I am not a victim. I am no martyr. I am not perfect. I AM part of the problem. I cannot pick up and leave fully well knowing I did nothing to change myself, or to learn HOW to change myself.