I told her "everytime you get ticked off about something you start writing letters to politicians"

And she says

"d*mn skippy! that's what they get paid for"

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

These threads always end at the same place:

"Everyone just agree that no one can tell someone else how/what to post and it's ludicrous to try to "control" other's behavior."

No one's going to agree to be nicer.

It's not going to matter if someone else things another person is a disservice, service, or neutral in terms of the board.

The real take home message is usually just not to respond to other people's posts that you feel are personal attacks or their critique's of your posts. Or, to put it simply, the easiest way to avoid a p*ssing match is to just walk away and let the other person drown in their own urine.

Even if you actually haul out actual rules of logic (vs. what gets called "logic" on this board which is closer to just making assertions that run the gamut of logical fallacies) and attempt to use that path as reasoning, it doesn't seem to help.

If you're interested in what I consider logic you can either access a website Logical Fallacies and the Art of Debate about logical fallacies and debate or you can check out the first chapter of the book Discrete Mathematics and It's Applications 5th ed. by Kenneth H. Rosen, Chapter 1 "The Foundations: Logic and Proof, Sets, and Functions", pp 1 - 111, McGraw Hill, ISBN: 0-07-119881-4 which, I think, has a very clear, good approach to rigorous thinking, logic, reasoning and actually being able to prove assertions as truth or fallacies.

My conclusion: This site is probably not really interested in serious, structured debates. That type of approach probably wouldn't seriously enhance the boards because "people problems" or "relationship issues" do not tend to lend themselves well to "logical proofs" or "structured debates" anyway. Though it would make things more comfortable for some people who enjoy the use of real logic and rigorous thinking.

Why not just skip to the end and just get to the "no one is going to agree" part?

Mys

Wild, thank you for sharing, and FLTH, too. Good to know when I'm understood and when I'm not.

What ML said is really true:



She summarized well what I was saying. I believe she doesn't see this apply to herself. She can perceive people making themselves into victims when they are not.

Notice bringing in something which I wrote two years ago, which BobPure also did earlier this year, irrevelant and out of context to this discussion of me enabling wayward mindsets.

Up to me not to follow the tangent, take the bait. Takes two to participate in gaslighting.



I think it's interesting you see it easier for me to "dismiss others" when that is what I often perceive you doing. Dismissing. I wasn't dismissing. I understand you heard me that way.

I was acknowledging.

What I heard from Suzet, FLTH and JJ was what I have said, too...is anybody hearing this? Am I crazy to feel attacked, degraded, slapped down right now? Re-reading your words...not understanding mockery, diversion, the straw-arguments...the components of gaslighting.

I wanted anyone to step in and say, "You're not crazy. She is really doing that." Not measure your intent, DJ your reasons...state yes, this is what you're doing, ML.

That's what I heard from FLTH to MrsW. To say, "What's real?" because we know we can be reactive, misunderstand, hurt and not know where it's coming from. And like FLTH, MrsW answered me by saying, "What? What am I doing?" When someone took a pot-shot at her, BigK, MEDC and you, ML, all launched yourself at that person.

So I felt a little crazy, off my rocker, when none of you said, "That was a low blow." Instead you said, "What blow? There are no blows. You're a drama queen." And laughed.

That's what you did...and when good men stand by and do nothing, they too are doing evil.

Which is what I said then. I believe it now, too.

I'm not standing by without sharing...you're not crazy, FLTH. I don't understand the dishonesty salvo anymore than you do. And I don't need to understand it. It's ML's. She knows. We don't. What I'm doing is saying, yes, it's a salvo. An opinion salvo, FLTH.



The fresh BS was Larry. Still is, in fact. The one who made the threads about gaslighting.

This is the diversion, the tangent to the discussion...you go to credibility. Mine is equal to yours, ML. God's design. What you did, though, is of note...you took the truth of what I said and added to it...expanded and called it my belief...and it isn't. You say "instead views the wayward victimizer as the victim in most cases." That's your opinion, not my belief.

I see you have a radar for victims and victimizer roles, though. And I wonder if this push to point fingers, define who is the victim and who is just playing at it, is something you've been working on in yourself? Seems very important to you to tell others when they are victims or not.

If you knew your partner was cheating on you before you married him, and married him anyway, would that mean you weren't a victim? Or he wasn't a victimizer? Or would it be two humans not telling the truth to themselves and living with the consequences?


That's not the truth...that's your opinion. Can you not see where you do yourself a grave disservice in not understanding what is the truth for everyone separate from your own truth? Your opinion is valid. In your view I am doing harm. I get that. I hear you. I consider your opinion, ML.

My concern is within your marriage...if you do this...and your opinion differs from your H's...do you keep telling him what you are saying is the truth, which makes his belief invalid?



I cannot make Suzet react in any way. You believe she acted immaturely, unhealthily. I don't. I believe she was hounded, quite literally, by MEDC and her choice not to be honest with OBS. Wasn't the subject she was posting about, nor involved the person she was posting to. Like you bringing up that post from two years ago. Called discrediting. Constant discrediting hurts, in my experience. I'm blessed because I didn't have MEDC following me around. That may change.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just as he reacted with vitrol when FFC essentially said what do you know, you're not married...his own stuff to bear. She was discrediting. Lashing out is like a signpost saying "You hit me"...it got through.

Now you're discrediting. Only I go with God speaking through a [censored]. I know I've resembled that creature very closely in my life. Doesn't discredit God's words through me or the Holy Spirit in me. I choose to speak.

Jesus was discredited constantly. Didn't stop others from hearing...and he acknowledged that there would be those who would not here...and he didn't stop speaking because of them.



You're correct. I don't see it as immature grandstanding or dishonesty. I don't see it as healthy adult choices, either. I see Suzet making her way through...in a foreign country to me...where everything is different...and I remember her connection with posters who were hurting, knowing she'd hurt her DH in the same way, and risking by sharing, anyway. I saw her do so honestly, in my opinion...as honest as we are with ourselves.

I trust God's still reaching for her. She's not discredited...her words remain here...they aren't wiped out by one action. To do so would be to rewrite history, wouldn't it? Sure can feel that way.

As for FLTH's "unnecessary meltdown"...I see her anger, pain and fear as reasonable. You do not. I understand being edited is a fright...when you had Justuss tell me to edit my post quoting you...from a public board...on another thread...I was frightened...felt shame and confusion. I don't think anything FLTH feels is unnecessary or unreasonable. I've felt the same way...nor do I think you're wrong for not feeling what she felt or calling it unnecessary. You're talking about you. For you to act that way isn't permissible to you in your code, is what I'm hearing.

That's cool. Doesn't make what others' feel unnecessary. That would be a bit dismissive, I think. Or calling someone feeling something deeply as a meltdown.

LA

That's what I said in the beginning. Everyone is on their own side of the fence and isn't interested in budging. Then I started getting analyzed because I wouldn't look at myself and see what's wrong with me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It went downhill from there pretty much.

Sorry I said you were a he LA. I've never really seen your posts before. I love the way you write, BTW. I agree with your post wholeheartedly.

LA, you are not crazy. You also should realize, you are not going to get thru to Melody. she is not listening. she does not seem very open to hearing others views that might require her to consider looking inwards for her own flaws. we all have them. she seems to be very content exactly as is. her choice.

as for me, i'm fine, i'm not letting this get to me. i am watching the thread so i can stand up for myself, especially if Melody decides to call me more nasty things. but there is NO WAY this is getting under my skin anymore.

i hope you are not letting this get under your skin either.

if it is, just breath and relax!!!

Oddly enough, I'm extremely calm. Nope... it's not under my skin.

LA...I don't mind your approach...it works for you..mine works for me. As I have told you int he past...I believe I was once very much like you...I genuinely like the person I am today much better. But to each his own. I do not agree with much that you have written regarding Suzet...and it sounds like YOU are judging me by saying I hounded her...I stated truths quite clearly and have always expressed those truths to Suzet. I do not believe and never will...and perhaps my experiences have really shaped my views here...that any person that actively keeps the truth about infidelity from a BS can be or is a good person. That is my belief and it has not been shaken even a little by any of the discussions I have heard in my time here. In fact, it has been fortified...as I see the damage that is caused by heartless people that decide for themselves to visit this helll upon an unsuspecting BS. My posts to Suzet were pointed and would remain so if she were here today.
When I was apparently wrong about something...my interpretation of her remarks regarding race...I apologized. She chose not to accept that apology. I will not now and never will apologize to her or anyone else for my stand regarding BS. Someone here needs to be the voice to speak up for those that are being hurt by the likes of Suzet. If that paints me as someone that hounds her... I gladly accept the brush stroke.
And LA...you have a lot of value to the people you reach on this board. I have been thanked by quite a few people for the stands I have taken regarding the above issue, father's rights, abuse and other things. My passion comes through in my posts and when I meet an horrible injustice...such as the one that Suzet inflicts on a daily basis on another BS, I don't care to mince words.
Anyone that doesn't like that can feel free to put me on ignore....I will lose not one minutes sleep over that.

Well, I could only decipher about 20% of your post, so I will respond accordingly.


Is that the truth? Or just your opinion? You can't say that that is just "my opinion" if there is no truth.




LA, if you are "discredited" it is only because of your own words and nothing more. Those are your words, and that is exactly what you said. I could post more along those lines, but I think that one best typifies your mentality. Are you bothered that I would post that quote to you? Why would that be?

And you are right, you can't make Suzet or anyone else react in any way, but that is not what I said. What I did say was that it is shameful that you enable them in such immature, self centered behavior. Sure, Suzet was hounded. I agree with you there. But that does not entitle her to act immaturely and dishonestly. You don't do her any favors by encouraging her to be a victim of MEDC.


Of course you do. I am not suprised by that because it only confirms for me that you view the WAYWARD as the victim by default. [the betrayed is not the victim because he is getting a "gift," right?] So you will overlook her bad behavior and ignore the fact that SHE was edited for name calling, enabling her to believe she was the victim for being edited. That is like the robber who feels victimized by the police when he is put in jail. Getting edited was a consequence of name calling, to you it is a reasonable cause for "anger, pain and fear." <shrug>

what I want to know is why LA...you are choosing to discuss ME with Mel...if you have issue with me...bring it to me. It is not Mel's job to censor or change my posting...why are you directing anything about me to her??? Talk about diversions. Mel was dead on accurate to call her on her high school way of handling this..dishonest (so much so Justuss felt compelled to set the record straight) and hence full of the drama created by her lies. If she is not being honest today...right here to everyone on this board...does that in fact make her a liar??? Or a victim that I pushed to lie???