My W recently had and (as far as I know) ended and EA with a lot of encouragement from me. The problem is she doesn't think she did anything wrong because she never had any intentions of it becoming physical. She, as I didn't before all of this, doesn't realize how hurtful and dangerous an EA is. She thought she could continue it forever and never become PA or that everything would be ok. I'm afraid if she doesn't ever understand how bad what she did is she will not learn from it and it will happen again, either with the same guy or someone else. I've typed up a letter to give to her but I'm asking anyone for advice as to what else I could do or add to my letter.

Why what you did was wrong.

1. You went to another man to have your emotional needs met. You don't let someone other than your spouse meet your most important EN.

2. You lied to me. You purposely kept your affair a secret from me and then when asked about specific instances, you lied to me about it. Our marriage, any marriage, cannot survive dishonesty. Your relationship with him brings that out in you and is destroying our marriage.

3. You told me that OM had been making love deposits. Even after finding out about the love bank, you continued to be around him allowing him to add to his love bank account. Eventually, his account would have gotten high enough for you to fall in love with him. Even if you never acted on this love, it would have destroyed our marriage. You would have withdrawn from me and our children and would have become severely depressed. You would have created a he!! for you, me and our children to live in.

4. You both had to address the fact that you were speaking inappropriately to each other and that you couldn’t let it lead to the ‘backseat’. The fact that you have to address that you were being inappropriate with each other should have rung a bell in your head that your relationship with him was inappropriate and needed to end. Instead you let it continue for 8 or 9 months continuing to be inappropriate and by doing so, disrespecting our family in the meantime.

5. Even after a mutual friend who you highly respect comes to you and says you need to end your relationship with him, you continue it. Even if you didn’t know what he had said to her, you knew he said something bad enough for her to tell you to end it. In fact, you knew that he liked you and wanted you and you let it continue. That, again, was disrespectful to your family.

Friend wasn’t just trying to protect you, she was trying to protect OM’s family. While OM ‘thought’ he was in love with you he was destroying his own family. I’m sure he completely withdrew from his wife and his home life. He may have been coaching his kids games, but his head and heart were not in it. They were somewhere else. By continuing your relationship with him you were aiding him in destroying his family.


Any advice would be much appreciated!

I would think such a letter is futile.

How long ago did she end the affair? Has she gone through withdrawal yet?

Educating a WS is like firing marshmallows at a crocodile. It won't have any impact. It is also a huge love buster.

I don't want to link my original thread because W, possibly WW, might be on here.

It ended about 6 weeks ago. She said she never had feelings for him in that way, but OM did and he admitted it to me. She said she was using him to get her ENs met. They didn't talk outside of work except he emailed her while she was on maternity leave while OM was at work. As far as I know, she's not WW.

If I were to give it to her, I obviously would need to change the title. But I'm afraid if I don't say anything and she doesn't see what she did as being wrong, we're just setting ourselves up for round 2. If you know of another way to go about this let me know. Thanks BK.

She won't recieve it from you - it will just piss her off frankly.

Has she been in NO CONTACT with this guy for 6 weeks? Or does she still contact/work with him?

These might sound like stupid questions but the answers are important.

They don't sound like stupid questions at all and I understand the importance of them.

This first week and a half she spoke with him twice. He emailed her 30 minutes after I called him telling him I knew everything and that he was to never speak to my wife again. She forwarded that email to me immediately after he sent it. I called him again telling him that a) my wife forwarded me the email without reading it b) what I was going to do if he tried contacting her again. From what I have heard (I know a few people that work there that are watching the situation for me) he hasn't tried contacting her since.

We are working on getting her out of there. She should find out any day if she got hired for another job. If not we are looking at her staying home full time. The latter would take a couple of months to build up our savings for that to happen.

So as far as I know, its been 4 weeks since contact.

Hi bhge,

Not much time, but I suggest you read my story attached to my sig line. "You don't have to have sex to cheat" was an MSN article that impacted me and I wrote it about it in chapter 6. (Sorry I forgot to link it to the article.)

Ace

She does know that adultery is wrong or she wouldn't hide it. She is acting like she has done nothing wrong because she doesn't want to take accountability. She is still very foggy so reason will be of no use on her. Its like trying to explain to a falling down drunk why drinking is bad for him. He won't get it until he sobers up.

Am I to take it that they still work in the same place?

I agree with Mel. She knows its wrong, or she wouldn't have hidden it from you and the rest of the world.

The problem is, right now she's still 'in the fog'. She CAN'T see that it was wrong...because for her to see it would mean she'd have to take responsibility for what she's done...and that's the first thing that most WS's dodge.

If NC stays in place...given time, she can and will see that what she did was wrong.

My wife was in EXACTLY the same boat at first. OM even told her "you did nothing wrong but flirt with me, and call me...but you do that with other people you know online, so its ok". It's all just rationalization and justification.

You need to get NC enforced, and you need to have her work with you to figure out how she can PROVE that it's in place. Work on meeting her EN's, and do a normal plan A...and given that, in time, she WILL see things like everyone else does.

Make sense to you?

Make sense to you?

Absolutely, thanks a lot guys. This is why I come here first. To prevent myself from doing something stupid.

Ace, I read your posts and found the article and read it. It was exactly what I needed. Can I send her that article or should I wait.

I can't tell if she truly is in the fog right now. I'm guessing that she is but everything she has told me has matched up with what the coworkers that I know are saying. So it sounds like she is telling me the truth about NC. Also, from the sounds of it, OM has already moved on to next female coworker. This helped W see what his motives are.

But I agree with all of you, if she can't see how wrong this was it makes me believe she is still in the fog. We had another talk the other night, first in probably 2 weeks, about what happened. I've known all along that she never really thought she did anything wrong which was one of the things that has hurt me so bad. I mentioned one of the points in my letter posted above (#5 only I didn't mention what she was doing to OMW). After our conversation she said, "when you put it that way, that's the first time I can see where I was probably doing something wrong." That is what made me believe that if I pointed out to her that sex isn't required to be cheating that she might actually get it.

bhge, if she is still working at the same place, then contact has not ended. You realize that, right? Working in the same place with the OM is like sending the "recovering alcoholic" into the bar every day for "business" drinks. Every time she sees him or his car or his name her feelings are rekindled. Recovery can't take place because withdrawal can't ever happen.

A wayward who has not withdrawn is in a FOG.

Don't be so quick to decide right off the bat that an EA hasn't escalated into a full PA.

One of the famous w/s line is, "we were only friends", "it wasn't physical". Anything to convince the b/s to stop interfering with the affair and leave the w/s able to continue contact with the o/p.

Keep up the vigilance and check up on her. Check her email, her voicemail, her cell phone recieved or dialed history.

Above all ask for transparency......

Ask yourself what are your boundries and how will you enforce them???

Hang in there, you have the attention of some experienced posters that have gone on to recover their marriages.

Keep posting.

Don't be so quick to decide right off the bat that an EA hasn't escalated into a full PA.

I haven't ruled it out and probably never will. I have checked a years worth of phone records finding nothing, I have been checking emails and have seen a few of them. Including an email where OM tries giving W phone # to give her some "work gossip". She replied nice try giving me your phone #. He ended up emailing back with the gossip instead. So I know if W had phone #, it wasn't until the last 3 weeks before dday, and the EA started almost 10 months before that to my knowledge.

While she was at home on maternity leave he emailed her about 2 to 3 times a week asking her out to lunch. This went on for about a month. She turned him down all but once.

Mel - yes, she is still at the same job, we are working on that. We are hoping she will get a new job this week. Fortunately, I know a lot of friends there that have been keeping tabs, both in the office and out of office. So far everything she has told me since dday, they have backed up. Unfortunately I can't check her work emails, but I know where she is when she isn't at work, usually with me.

I have been plan Aing with her and she has been doing the same. We have both read HNHN & LB since I suspected something 3 months ago. Since the NC was established 1 & 1/2 weeks after dday, I've noticed her change towards me. Before she was indifferent to my plan A. Since then she has been much more affectionate and receptive to my efforts. I still do not trust her and probably won't for a long time. But it seems she is trying. But if she doesn't feel she has done anything wrong, to me it doesn't matter what else she does. We are just being set up for round 2, either with the OM or someone new.

Unfortunately, she is still an alcoholic who is STILL in the bar. Working together is still contact whether she talks to him or not. All the watching is for naught so please don't allow yourself to be lulled into a false sense of security. Thankfully, she is leaving the job and that is what counts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

bhge...

Something else that MUST be done in this situation is telling OM's wife...Just as you had every right to know, so does she...That will also further insure that NC stays in place...You've also said that OM has begun to prey on yet another woman...OM's wife deserves this information so that she can protect herself and hopefully save her marriage and family...I hope that you will "man up" and do the only right thing and tell her...When will you tell OMW?

Mrs. W

The reason it is wrong is because it is damaging to your marriage. Tell her to look at how much it hurt you, and you are the person she swore an earth to.

Also, just have her talk to some of the FWW's here, and they can tell her how a "friendship" can develop into more, especially when this OM is forcing the issue. If the OM wants more he will stop at nothing to get what he wants, and the ENs that she got from OM will stop being met unless she gives into his advances. By that time, she will probably already be hooked. I can't remember how many times I heard, "but I haven't done anything wrong," when I discovered my WW's EA. Well, what she should have done is tack on the word "yet" because as soon as OM withdrew somewhat from her, she was fooling around with him. She understands how it was wrong now the she is through withdrawal, and I bet your WW will as well. If not, then sick some of the FWWs on her to get it through her head. They are no different then her, they just didn't get out before it went further.

I must say, I don't agree with jmwc very often (which is fine), but on this one I am in full agreement on both points.

In my experience, for me anyway, it isn't always all that useful or helpful to admonish someone with a "what you did was wrong because God says so/other people say so/the rulebook says so". Those statements only carry weight if the other person shares your view that God/other people/rules are very important, AND they have the same interpretation/viewpoint/whatever on exactly what those rules are. Basically, in order to convict anyone of anything using "right or wrong" arguments you must be bound by the same superceding rules (as in basic laws in society), or you must agree in most every detail of other rulesets that are not covered by law (as in issues of morals/religion/whatever).

That is not an easy task.

However, a marriage is a committment that was made by a person, a promise, an oath. It is hard to weasel out of any wrongdoing or culpability when it comes to breaking an oath. As far as the argument that an EA isn't really an affair, that they are just getting their EN met, that they are just a friend -- yeah, I was right there too. I never had any intention of having an EA, it was never a concious decision "hey, I am gonna go find a woman to become friends with, then let it become an innappropriate friendship, then a full-blown EA", but I did let it happen. And, when it comes to relationships, even if the person who committed the EA feels that it wasn't really an affair, that they did nothing wrong, whatever, as long as the OTHER person (the betrayed spouse) feels that it was wrong, that it hurt the relationship, that they were betrayed -- well, that in and of itself kind of makes it true.

I guess my advice would be to NOT try and tell her that she is wrong because of God or other people or the rules or whatever -- tell her how it affects YOU and your relationship. Have her truly listen to you, to your reasoning, to your pain.

I promised to always love and cherish and protect my wife, and I didn't. I let a friendship get too far. I can point to many reasons why I did it, but knowing why is only important in preventing it in the future (at least it is to me anyway). I wasn't convicted of my guilt by anyone else, I didn't stop it because I knew that I was sinning -- I stopped it because it was killing me inside, and the majority of what was killing me was that I knew what I was doing to my wife and my family.

Knowing that you are "right" according to God/church/other people/whoever is small consolation if that rightness forces the other person away.

And yeah, friendships with the other sex are almost universally a bad idea for married people. I know that I for one am completely unable to handle one, at least in my current state.

MrsW - I have read many great posts from you and am glad to see you here. I have let OMW know, I will fill in with more details later. It's still in the process.

jmwc95 - You would think her being able to see how much it has hurt me would be enough. My wife had only seen me in tears twice in my life, when DD and DS came into our lives. The night that I confronted her was #3. I have not been the same person since then (depression, anxiety etc.) and she can see this. But for some reason, it took me pointing out reason #5 above for her to start to see that what she was doing was wrong (even though she new all along since she hid it from me)

LW2Go - Brilliantly said. I could probably have everyone on earth tell her that it was wrong, she will only see it when she wants to see it.

[color:"blue"]"tell her how it affects YOU and your relationship"[/color]

LW2G has it nailed right here...

The reason it is wrong is because it hurts him, her spouse. When she married she likely promised to love, honor etc...

This relationship does not provide extraordinary care for her husband because it causes him anguish and pain.

It does not honor her husband because it is disrespectful to him.

It is the ultimate love buster!

For a way to determine if a friendship has gone too far see this>>> Has Friendship Gone Too Far?

Under "QUIZZES" are other questionnaires that can help to identify personal and social vulnerabilities to developing an affair.

Mark

Thanks for the link Mark. I haven't read any book outside the Harley's but I think it is something I/we should read. I took the quiz and answered based on what I KNOW about the EA and she was at a 6. If I took it according to what I know about OM it was a 7. And I'm sure I don't know all the answers, could be an 8 for both of them. But once again I think it might be lost on W.

Remember bhge, "as a man thinketh in his heart, so is he." (Prov. 23:7)

The book, the EN questionnaire, the quiz, whatever it may be....it does not need to be "lost on W".

She can change and Dr. Harley's program is set up to help facilitate those changes.

Don't give up....unless you want to.

Ace