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Hi, been lurking for a while now, thought I was getting it together but I’m not. could do with some help. wife had EA/PA with old boss, she used to be his sectary, it lasted about4 weeks until she confessed at end of March. NC since early June and she is looking for another job, but they do cross paths as they both work for the same company.Said she was attracted to him first time they met 5 years ago so It looks like an LTA.We have both agreed to work on our marriage But she still says she has no feelings for me whatsoever, no love no passion no special feelings at all and that everything is flat. She still looks upon the OM as being special friend and wishes They had not crossed the line. I hold my hands up and admit to taking her for granted and ignoring her needs and not showing her my love often enough.I did this for years and I am totally ashamed, we met thirty years ago when she was 16 and have been married 26 years. I have been following all the rules since D-day and thought things were getting better until the other day when I asked her some more questions about the affair she said she Felt sick after answering them and now feels as if everything has been put back to D-day, she now says she needs more space to find herself, does not want to be tied to a marriage, that we met when she was to young, she said these things months ago and now I’m hearing them again any thoughts please.
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I have been following all the rules since D-day and thought things were getting better until the other day when I asked her some more questions about the affair she said she Felt sick after answering them and now feels as if everything has been put back to D-day, she now says she needs more space to find herself, does not want to be tied to a marriage, that we met when she was to young, she said these things months ago and now I’m hearing them again any thoughts please. My thoughts are that she wants "space" to be free to carry on the affair because it never ended. This is the result of not ending contact with her affair partner. And the longer you allow this to go on, the harder it will be for her to withdraw. She is an addict, and she is currently going into the bar every day having drinks, but calling them "business drinks." She will never withdraw under these conditions, and recovery will be impossible. She is a state of perpetual withdrawal becasue she continues to see the OM. In order to move forward, 30years, she needs to leave the job and end contact. Is the OM married and have you told his wife about the affair?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2 How Should Affairs End? Never see or communicate with a former lover Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage. The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay. Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity? In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. <snip> We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation. Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS p. 177 ...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them. I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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What was your response to her answers....
what happened that brought them up at the time that you did...
it is very very common for people who feel bad.....(human nature) to try to withdrawal from the whole thing...and knee jerk it in to some major blowout...
playing the totally non forgivable bad guy...(the WS) is a way the WS/FWS avoids the pain they have caused...
are you in counseling...
are you instilling gobs of hope and love on to your wife that you can recover..
are you charming her socks off
ARK
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Hi Melodylane, Thanks for your reply, yes I contacted his wife, our kids know, her family knows and I think pretty much all her workmates know.they work about 10 miles apart,but there is an odd time he turns up for meetings at her offices, she always tells me when this happens and she is looking for another job. she has said to me that she wants to forget the affair and move on but is not sure what she really wants. We start MC next week.
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Hi ark^^ My response was calm because it was the right answer, what brought them up was my costant dig dig digging, they were of a sexual nature, I am showing her as much love and tenderness as I can I will have to work on the charm and the hope, I know plan A was working some months back when she said I have became f***ing husband of the year.Maybe I've been in plan A to long, last night she did mention me turning into a cabbage?
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can you change the need for constant digging and get her to agree to periods of where there will be questions and answers...
that are at a set time.. last a set number of minutes... with agreement to stop when times up ...and do it again at the next scheduled time...
in other words...are you constantly at her... if you were her would you feel the same....
it's good you are starting counseling...
the need to know of a BS is a great need and a great of love when the FWS can give it... but it's never that easy..
it's a long process...remember that recovery can take year/s to get really stable...
be wary on your own insistance and demands...
be very loving be happy with her.
thank her today for the answering the questions.. explain how the unknown is a gazillion more time frightening than the truth...etc...
ARK
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also do you think he is a serial cheater....any idea/proof/thoughts on that
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Hi Melodylane, Thanks for your reply, yes I contacted his wife, our kids know, her family knows and I think pretty much all her workmates know.they work about 10 miles apart,but there is an odd time he turns up for meetings at her offices, she always tells me when this happens and she is looking for another job. she has said to me that she wants to forget the affair and move on but is not sure what she really wants. We start MC next week. 30, just know that everytime she sees him at a meeting, event, etc, it rekindles her feelings and she goes back to Day 1 of withdrawal. This will prevent her from getting better and make recovery of your marriage impossible. It may very well lead to a resumption. I would be very concerned about the request for "space," because that is ALWAYS code for "want space to carry on affair unimpeded." Dr. Harley has even said that in 35 yrs experience he only seen ONE situation where this was not the case. Are you monitoring her activities to ensure there is no contact? Are you and the OM's wife keeping tabs to make sure there is no contact?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi Ark That was the last digging session and she knows it, I have been digging for months and I now know everything. I may have dug to many times and this time really deep. She said to me afterwards that it all came flooding back and she feels like running away, she asked me will it ever end. I told her it has. I dont know if he is a serial cheater but my wife believes she was groombed. She was on and off meds for 6 years and had very low self esteem.
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Hi Melodylane, I know contact even visual can put FWS back in the fog or even back to square one, she knows this and wants to move job.I am sure the space thing is a reaction of my constant digging. Yes I am monitoring and I am sure there is NC I have not called his wife since just after Dday, I dont feel I have to at this point, thats another card to play, I'm sure my wife is transparent.
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HI 30,
You have been getting great advice. I would like to add a bit more. First, don't worry about the "husband of the year" comment. What you are doing is showing her that her rationalizations about you, the marriage, and the affair are false. WS's hate to hear that they are doing and have done wrong, and that their rationalizations for doing what they KNOW is wrong and hurtful.
So keep up the good work with plan a. How has she handled the fact that you have exposed her affair to family and friends?
Next, question is where is she looking and what is holding up her job search. I expect that her company would give her good recommendations just to get her out of there and avoid the possibility of a law suit, for sexual harrassment.
Now for some advice. Have you ever gone fishing? If so, consider this like a fishing trip, only not as much fun. IF she truely wanted out, she would have filed for divorce. Yet, she is circling because she has no "feelings" for you. Of course she doesn't if she did she couldn't do what she did. She had to hide and bury them to do what she has done.
They can and likely will come back once no contact has really been established and she has gone through withdrawal which does sound like she is in. The flat feelings, and no feelings for you are symptoms of withdrawal. What you need now is Time and Patience, just as in fishing. Show the bait, have a deft touch, and give it plenty of Time and Patience.
I know this stuff is tough but you have made a decision to give it all you have to save this marriage. You are to be honored for this decision just not by your W right now. But, that may come. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I will confirm Mel's comments about needing "space". I have been here over 8 years and I have NEVER seen a case where "space" did not mean renewed contact with OP. The most amazing thing about this site, is that you get to see over the years how scripted affairs really are. It is/was one of the most amazing things I have learned here. The script is almost always word for word (I love you but am not in love with you, etc). The actions, the rationalization, everything is just like a constantly repeated play.
The good news about this is the folks here can help you anticipate how she is going to react to things, the timing of things, your feelings and reactions, and what her behavior might mean. Your milage may vary, but you will get milage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> The point is this. Because these things have such constant patterns, the odds of Harley's approach working is higher than you might expect or feel right now. Give it a full shot and you will optimize your chances of rebuilding your marriage and you WILL learn a lot about relationships and what drives them, no matter what finally transpires.
Hang in there, do a lot of reading, and remember T&P.
God Bless,
JL
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I know contact even visual can put FWS back in the fog or even back to square one, she knows this and wants to move job.I am sure the space thing is a reaction of my constant digging. That is not a reaction I would expect to see from someone who was averse to digging, though. The "space" and "need to find myself" is almost exclusively confined to those who are a) still in the affair or b) planning on resuming the affair. They need the "space," which usually means a seperation or the freedom to act like a single person, so they can see the OP unimpeded. The last thing that your marriage needs is "space" in order to recover. THAT IS WHAT CAUSED THE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. Recovery requires MORE TOGETHERNESS, not less. So a wayward that was interested in recovering the marriage would not be seeking "space." In fact, Dr. Harley strongly recommends 15 hours of quality time per week together in order to fall in love again. However, if she persists in seeking "space" I would clear out a corner of the garage and make a quiet place for her to go "find herself." How exactly does she suggest you give her this "space?" Is she asking you to move out? If I were you, I would quietly make a call to the OMW and ask her what she is seeing from her end. Something might have changed over there which led to her desire for space.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi folks, Yep, your right about the space thing, told me last night she misses OM,I asked in what way, she said she wondered if OM was going through the same feelings as she is and has the need to talk to him, it seems she is still in deep withdrawal, she is on holiday from work this week so she has the time to let the feelings get to her. We spent the last weekend away together and things were going smoothly, we talked about this and that, a new kitchen doing work on the garden and positive things in general, things were relaxed until I did my latest digging interrogation on Monday night.She does want to move job but is looking for similar line of work, as regards OMW one sniff of contact and she will be the first to hear of it. No, she has never asked me to move out, we were waiting delivery of a new bed for our bedroom, anyway it came yesterday and she said to me last night can I get it built up this weekend, she was really worried I was going to cancel the delivery. She's driving me nuts.
JL, There are days when your first or second cast feels just right and your(on), then there are days when you know you should have left it alone. I should have remembered this.
Last edited by Thirty_years; 09/06/07 05:19 AM.
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it seems she is still in deep withdrawal, she is on holiday from work this week so she has the time to let the feelings get to her. She is in a PERPETUAL withdrawal because she continues to see him at work. She gets her fix when she sees him at work, and then has problems when she is off for the week. This is a critical problem that is preventing you from moving forward here.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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"and I think pretty much all her workmates know"
Did YOU contact her boss, human resources department, coworkers? Or did she just say or imply that everyone at work knows? It's very important that YOU talk to them yourself to make sure they know AND make sure they know that YOU know and are trying to save your marriage. There very well may be some people at work who know or suspect but they may be assuming that you don't know (and they don't want to be the one to tell you). Or they may have been told a lie by WW and OM, something like you two were separated and getting a divorce... or that you have an 'open' marriage... I find it hard to believe their superiors and/or human resource department knows but it hasn't yet caused either of them any trouble yet!
I would also contact the OMW again. If your WW gets angry so what? IMHO you should tell her that as soon as she can prove she no longer has ANY contact with the OM (not even work-related then you will stop all contact with the OMW! When it's over it's over - but not a nanosecond sooner. She's expecting you to just stuff your valid concerns and pretend it's all over when in fact it is not.
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Hi, mm thanks for your reply. She admits to still having feelings for the OM, I have to get her out that job. Do I give her a leave the job or its quits ultimatum, should I force the issue or do I play it cool and keep plan Aing.I am using various methods to Monitor her movements so I am positive there is no deceitful contact other than when she sees him from time to time at work. She told me last night that she had seen OM yesterday in a corridor said Hi and walked away, she always tells me when this occurs. We have our first MC meeting tonight so we shall see what transpires. Any thoughts or ideas please.
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30yrs, I would explain to her that your marriage will not recover unless she leaves the job. There will be no withdrawal until she leaves, and no recovery until withdrawal happens. Let her know that it is extremely painful to you [and disrespectful!!] for her to continue her comtact with the OM. Your marriage is facing years of on again, off again affair if she doesn't leave the job.
This is a boundary that you don't want to play around with, 30. If she won't leave the job, I would seperate and go to Plan B.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Here is a must read: Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2 How Should Affairs End? Never see or communicate with a former lover Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage. The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay. Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity? In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure. <snip> We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation. Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS p. 177 ...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them. I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Hi folks Things are getting worse after first MC session,says she cant do this anymore and wants out (divorce),she is in deep withdrawal and is becoming more depressed each day.I have been plan Aing for months, taken her two hols abroad, doing everything at home,all the chores,bent over backwards and its getting worse.I look at her and she is just a shell of who she was, she has been on and off prozac the last six years, OMG what have I done to you. Would a 180 do any good and how do you go about it when you are living together,is it better to separate and go deep or do I just keep on loving her and hope for the best. I'm at my wits end.
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