once again...you don't KNOW what happened all the 29 years of their marriage. you...or your H couldn't possibly have that information.

next... I will say that choosing to sleep with another persons H or W is a bit more selfish an at than taking your own life. The choice to commit adultery leads very sane and otherwise healthy people to contemplate suicide...it ruins families...it ruins lives. If you need sugarcoat your H's role in the death of another person, far be it for me to try and change your mind...but no one...not you...not the police and certainly not his HO wife knows the anguish that this man felt inside to drive him to this act. Control....a way of having the last word....please....the ultimate control is screwing your family over and then blaming others....in other words, typical WS behavior.

medc,



Once again, this information is not from her. It is from law enforcement officers who were called to their home & the Texas Ranger who investigated the possible contract with the hit man. And, JFYI, I have seen personally the way he treated her. We attended company functions that they also attended, since my WH & OW worked in the same plant & this company has family functions for their employees. I know for a fact that he treated her like she was too stupid to go potty by herself. He made comments in front of people she worked with about how stupid she was--Emotional & verbal abuse in my book. I had also seen bruises where he had hit her. Remember, this OW was someone I was friendly with & had talked to her about her situation before the A began. Being a legal secretary for a divorce lawyer, I gave her information on spousal abuse & what we charge for a D.


You have the right to your own opinion on that. I believe that suicide is the most selfish thing a person can do. Why? Because you can make things right with your family for an A, but if your dead you can't make things right with anybody, including God. Yes an A is selfish, but if recovery begins, the selfishness stops.



Again, you have a right to your own opinion. I was only saying that my WH was not 100% responsible for the decision of this W/BH to take his own life. I said before, he may not have meant to pull the trigger, he may have only been trying to get her to stop & call off the D. Law enforcement officers had been called to their home & had him taken to a hospital for a night or two in the Psych ward for just that very reason several times over the life of their marriage. He was also an alcoholic. He came to company functions with liquor on his breath.

I believe what the officers told me & the Ranger. They had no reason to lie to me, my WH or the Ranger about any of it. The security guards at my WH's plant were personal friends of both the OW & her H. They had no reason to lie to officers, the supervisors & managers of that plant.



If you have never seen anyone in this sitch (& I have seen close friends in this same sitch as well as clients), you can't understand the control factor. When your life is threatened, that is control. And like someone else said on this thread, even though the other person threatened suicide, she was afraid he would kill her or her daughter. The news is full of murder/suicides. It happens all too often in my state & not always because of an A.

When someone tells you something often enough, (you're ugly, you're stupid, no man in his right mind would want you & if he did it would only be for one thing & then only with a bag over your ugly face) you begin to believe it. I know, BTDT in high school, it scarred me for life. When the man who said that to me committed suicide, that's when I realized he was the one with the problem, not me. It took years to overcome all that, but I did, thanks to my WH. He is the only man I ever dated who told me I am beautiful & worthy of someone's love, outside of family. I have heard her H call her stupid in front of people. And he was also having an A at the time the A with my WH started. He admitted that to me in one of his phone calls.

I don't understand why you think the ultimate control is screwing your family over & blaming someone else. Because if you are the BS & you choose to D the WS, where is the control in that? If the BS chooses to fight for the marriage, where is the control in that? IMHO, those are choices controlled by no one but the one making them. They are not forced to make that choice. WS do have wild behavior, but that behavior leaves them when & if they decide to return to the M & end the A & it leads to recovery of the M.

But, all in all, I respect your right to your own opinion. IMHO, you sound kinda bitter about your sitch. Which is ok if you feel that way. Far be it from me to change your mind. Everyone has a right to their own feelings & opinions. Those are lessons I learned the hard way.

This is a place I feel safe coming to. A place where I can get things off my mind, vent if needed & cry when I want to. Everyone doesn't agree with the choices I make. I don't always agree with theirs. But that's not what this place is about. Each individual person here is encouraged to make their own decisions, based on their circumstances. Advice is given when needed & asked for.

Again, this is JMHO. No one on here has to agree with anything I've said. Everyone has their own reasons for what they believe & why.

The key word is "contemplate". There is a very long way between contemplation (or suicidal ideation) and the act. Many, many people have contemplated suicide, just as many people contemplate adultery. Few choose to go through with it. Both are inherently selfish acts committed by weak individuals.

I'm really not interested in comparing the pain of infidelity with death, whether by suicide, the death of a child, what have you. My H scoffs at the idea that what we have gone through is more painful than the death of of one of our children would be. His opinion does not invalidate another person's who may disagree.


I stand by what I said, medc. Personal experience and course work.

PK

Personally, I think you should tell your H that he's entitled to feel however he wants to feel about OWH's suicide. If he feels guilty, that's his choice. If he doesn't, then that's his choice as well.

But...if he chooses to let that be a factor in YOUR marital recovery, that's ALSO his choice...and a bad one.

He needs to grow the heck up. He screwed up. The only person he OWES anything to here is YOU. He doesn't owe OW anything, regardless of how he feels about her H's death. He needs to stop using her H's suicide as an EXCUSE to continue contact with her. PERIOD. That's what that boils down to...an EXCUSE TO JUSTIFY CONTINUED CONTACT.

Great...he feels horrible about her H's death. He feels he contributed to it too. That's fine. I can see that point. But...time for him to tough up and face the responsibilities he's got to YOU. And to your marriage.

Sorry for being blunt. I've lived through having friends commit suicide. I had a kid who worked for me pull the trigger in front of me one night, 10 years ago. I still feel guilty...I should have known he was going to do that. BUT...that didn't give me ANY excuse not to take ownership of the rest of my life.

Same deal with your husband.

My sitch leaves nothing to be bitter about. And I never said he was 100% responible.

Owl...first and foremost... I am sorry you went through this...I too have witnessed this and it is a very hard thing. I am thankful it was on the job and not in my normal life.
I will say thought hat to equate the situations...if you had abused the child and he killed himself...IMHO, you would assume some of the burden of his choice. But otherwise it is just the "I should have known" type of thinking that follows any tragedy.
Again, I am sorry for what you went through.

Owl,



I have told him that. I have told him many times that he is entitled to his own feelings, but he is the one who chooses how he feels.




You're right! He does & he finally realized that. Someone said something here that got through the fog. He is now working with me to save our M. Everyone screws up but it's what you do after the screw-up that matters. If you continue, shame on you. If you learn from the mistake & don't repeat it, great, you're growing as a person. This is JMHO & no one has to agree with me.



I'm so sorry you had to go through that. I have had my IC tell me that sometimes you can't tell if someone will really do that or not. I've been told that if they talk about it alot or threaten it alot, they aren't serious. That the ones who are serious don't tell anyone, they just do it. And so far, I have seen it mostly happen that way. I can only imagine the pain & guilt you feel. But, even if you'd known he would really do it, you may not have been able to stop him. I'm glad you've been able to work through that, get on with your life & post on this board. You've shared your wisdom with me & I appreciate it.

These are excellent points, lostafter24years. All too often (F)WSs can become immersed in a fog of pitying themselves. It's simply an extension of the "me, me, me" mentality that got the FWS in trouble in the first place. While the suicide of the OW's H, and the flamboyant manner in which it was accomplished adds a complicating layer to your entire situation, the basic rules still apply - NC has to be in place for you to feel safe.

And I wouldn't be so quick to consider medc "bitter". In my experience, he identifies strongly with the underdog in a given situation. Do I think that he loses perspective sometimes because of this? Yes. But at other times, his observations are acute and worth noting.


There's really no hard and fast rules with suicide, but generally people who threaten suicide are not mentally stable, and are thus at greater risk of doing the deed. Therefore, it's best to take all threats seriously.

Take care.

PK

Although I am sure we could philosophically debate the role of Lost's WH in OWH's suicide till the end of time, is that what we should be doing here? Owl and others who have commented on your WH's use of the suicide as a means to justify his continued infidelity are right on the mark with their assessment. Lost, a continued focus on getting your WH to break the loop of guilt he is stuck in and stop using it to justify his continued contact with OW is key here. I hope that you know that is good sound advice and not to let opinions about fault finding in your sitch derail you from your goal...saving your marriage. I admire your courage, keep striving towards that goal.

I appreciate all the comments.



On this, everyone is 100% right. And I understand that & now so does my WH, so it seems. He still feels guilty but has realized, from comments here, her part in it also & sees that he has to move away from the OW. He has cut off contact with her. He accepts the blame for his part in all of this horrible mess (suicide & A) & is trying to make things right. For that I'm thankful. Since this thread was started mainly for him, it seems to have accomplished what I hoped it would.




I guess the only reason I considered medc bitter was the comment about ultimate control, which came across to me as a bit sarcastic, maybe not the intention of medc here so maybe just my perspective. I know that two people can see the same thing & neither one will have the same story about it.

medc,

I didn't mean to imply that you were the one who said my WH was 100% responsible. I only meant that I didn't want him to take 100% of the blame for someone else's choice. I'm sorry if I came across that way. You have given me some very good advice since I've been here & I'm grateful for all your posts to me.

ll,



I think I've finally reached that goal. I see the good advice & I promise not to let opinions derail me. I've come too far & fought too hard to stop now, just as he is starting to make things right. He admits it was a means of continued contact & now has ended it.

And my opinion about suicide being the most selfish thing is mine alone. If you're dead, how can you set things to right? But if you choose to live, you have a second chance to correct your mistakes & build a better life.

An A is the ultimate betrayal. The pain is very real. But to me the death of a loved one (child, S, etc.), be it by suicide, natural causes or accident, is a pain that no one ever completely recovers from. Because it leaves a hole in your life that can't be filled. You learn to live with it & deal with it, but it never goes away completely. And pretending that person didn't exist only causes more pain. I've seen this personally through the mother of a good friend of DD#1. Her son died just 4 months after his 16th birthday in a car accident, he fell asleep at the wheel. My DD#1 put down her driver's ed. book & refused to get her license until she was almost 18 because of that accident. On the important anniversary dates, my DD#2 (who is close to the mother) & I talk about her son to her. She says it helps tremendously.

Suicide is shrouded in myths.

obviousley in this instance there was a heap of prior behaviour in the male person that comitted suicide- I would certainly lean towards an underlying mental illness and definately domestic violence...

I do not believe that suicide is a selfish act or an act of weakness- suicide is to the person involved a viable option-TO STOP THE PAIN.

Some plans are so detailed it makes your mind boggle.

I also believe a lot of suicides can be avoided- by you , by us, by me, by others, by everyone.

Threats and even slight passing mentions of suicidal thoughts or intentions should be treated very seriously. As seriously as the symptoms of a cardiac arrest.

Learn the right questions to ask-and you could just save a life.


Peace

Max

Lost...no worries about me. I truly hope you and your H do well. While I may view these things differtly, I do know that we share the same goal and that is for you to have an intact and happy marriage.
I hope it works out.

max,

I think you're right about most of this. The only reason I think suicide is selfish is because they don't stop to think about anyone else or what they're doing to the people the leave behind. The guy who treated me so badly in high school, killed himself in his garage & his wife & 2 young daughters found him there. His daughters were both under the age of 10, so I can imagine what that image has done to them. He had threatened in school but not after he married, she came home & there he was, no warning. So she had no way of knowing or stopping it.

I also think threats of suicide as a means of control are selfish. I have had people I know try to leave their spouse & when they did, that spouse threatened suicide so they didn't leave. Suicidal spouse happy as a clam because they got what they wanted. This continued for years. One client, who finally quit giving in & left, divorced & the spouse harassed her for a while then remarried & went on with his life. He is still living quite happily with new wife.

I believe in taking the threats seriously, if that person has had severe depression or something catastrophic in their lives. But when it's used as a means of control & is repeated for that purpose, it's hard to take it seriously, kinda like the boy who cried wolf. You never know if it's a true problem or just a way to get you to do what they want. Puts me in mind of Fred G. Sanford on Sanford & Son (which probably shows my age), always faking a heart attack to get what he wanted.



Thanks medc.

I never hold hard feelings against someone for their opinion & view of things & I hope no one here holds any against me.

Yes, my ultimate goal is to save my marriage. I know she contacted him yesterday & he refused to answer back. She was having a really bad day. Who cares? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I was proud he didn't return her text message or call her about it. And he didn't erase the message from his phone.

It's true that two people can hear the same thing or see the same thing & each will have heard it differently or have a different view, it's all in the perspective. I know I don't always come across as I intend to, so feedback from ya'll helps me with that. I know in dealing with my WH that I've said things meaning one thing & he heard it another. So repeating back what was said helps us to understand each other. Something I've learned has been a big problem with us, you know, the Mars & Venus thing. We both talk a different language, LOL! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks everyone for the input. And the debate wasn't bad either!! Here's hugs to everyone for their help & prayers for continued help with this whole mess.

(((((everyone)))))

In my first paragraph-I don't deny maniputalive behaviour.


As for selfishness...we could argue/chat/type for hours-alas it won't change my *myth stance*..coz I know

You yourself mention === He had threatened in school but not after he married, she came home & there he was, no warning. So she had no way of knowing or stopping it.

Who listened at school???? because he obviously gave a clear indication of self harm.---

He had prior behaviour...big risk factor

I love the concept of each and everyone of us knowing CPR-
granted in most jobs these days.

Just a huge pity we dont think about suicide intervention.

Peace

Max

Yes, we could but we won't. Because you're entitled to your opinion & I'm not out to change your mind. Different people see things different ways.



I agree with you on that. But there are some cases where there is no prior threats or behavior, no warning given, no indication of depression. A woman I used to work with whose son committed suicide, told me he was home from college on the weekend before he died on Monday. He was his usual happy go lucky self, they had a good weekend, spent their usual time together. He never mentioned being depressed, didn't act as if anything was wrong & had never threatened suicide before. He went back to college on Sunday. Monday afternoon, she got the call from the campus police, he was gone, no note, no explanation. He'd hung himself. He was 19.

Stories like that sadden me. Because sometimes, I think that if someone knows, they can help & it can be stopped.

As far as my experience at school. No one believed him because he never acted serious. It always seemed to be a joke with him. He was just a mean guy who picked me out of the crowd as the one he wanted to pick on. My WH tells me it's because he was really attracted to me, but was afraid to ask me out or let anyone know he felt that way. I don't know. Just know his cruelty cost me many lonely nights of tears & self-esteem. I'm so glad someone saw that & pulled me out of that pit!! But at no time was I suicidal about it, never crossed my mind.

Perhaps "responsibility" isn't the right word then, in the case of the suicide. Better might be that having an affair with an unstable person's spouse is simply risky and s2pid, because they could use that as an excuse for being "pushed over the edge". There's always the risk, in such a case, that the OWH might be a murder suicide, rather than just a suicide.

You are absolutely 100% WRONG about who is responsible for the affair, however. How can the BS (however rotten a person they might be) be responsible for something they're not even aware of? The correct response by the WS who feels mistreated, before having an A, is 2 address the problems in the M. First with their spouse, then via counseling/coaching. And if those efforts fail, DV. It is always wrong 2 choose 2 have an affair. Always.


Absolutely correct. 100%.


Correct. This is why "responsibility" was probably not the right word. But you have 2 admit that by getting involved with his W, lost's WH was taking a big risk that they might all have wound up in the ground if the OWH's had decided 2 go postal before checking himself out.


I am 0% responsible for my W's choice 2 have an affair. And that's even recognizing that I may not have "treated her right", perhaps for many years prior 2 the start of her affair. I've told her this. She didn't like much hearing that I considered her responsible for the A. It's important, however, 2 make a clear distinction between the problems in the marriage and the choices 2 blow them off rather than address them, and instead complicate things by bringing an interloper in2 the pic2re.


Not really, in my view. But they (the WH and the OW) sure 2k one helluvan unnecessary risk.


No possible way.


But Harley also is firm about the WS being 100% responsible for having the A.

-ol' 2long

2long,

I don't personally see why so many other BS's get their undies in a wad at the fact that I have chosen to recognize my wife's EA for what it was, a symptom of a greater sickness in my marriage. I absolutely recognize the systemic element in her EA, and I fully accept that it would not have happened had I been an engaged husband. This is MY cross to bear - the fact that I abandoned my beautiful wife when she needed me most - and MY beliefs on the matter will not be changed.

My wife's dad was dying of cancer, and she begged me to quit traveling and stay home with her. She begged me! She cried for me, but my work was more important. It makes me sick to my stomach when I remember her telling me how badly she needed me and I told her, I'm sorry I can't be home, honey, CAN'T YOU FIND A FRIEND TO TALK TO?!!!!!!

F**k.

My wife never once, not even ONCE, said to me "I fell in love with OM because you were a bad, absent, abusive husband"....not once!! She took all the responsibility onto her own shoulders, to the point of making herself physically ill over what she had done and also over what she had almost done. She apologized profusely for her failings, and instead of accepting her numerous apologies, I kicked her when she was down. It had to stop.

Finding this website and reading SAA where instrumental in my healing and in saving my marriage. She would have NEVER had the EA if not for my behaviors. Her affair was to be an exit affair, leaving me, the monster, for someone who treated her better. And she would have been completely justified in doing so.

As for Harley being firm about the affair being 100% the WS's responsibility, that's not what it says in my copy of SAA.

Pg 75

How could I expect Jon to avoid burning his bridges after Sue had behaved so thoughtlessly? I offered him four reasons to try a plan that would give his marriage a chance to recover.

1. JOHN WAS PARTLY RESPOSIBLE FOR SUE'S AFFAIR. John knew, deep down inside, that his career choices had a great deal to do with Sue's affair. His work schedule prevented him from meeting her emotional needs, and it made her vulnerable to Greg's attention. Etc, etc, etc.

It goes on, but I'm not going to type it all out.

I think somebody mentioned in here that Harley doesn't really mean that, and that on his radio show he's indicated that he feels the WS is 100% responsible. I've never heard the radio show and don't intend to. But the above paragraph is what it says in MY book, and, after a lot of soul-searching I must admit I agree with it, in MY particular case. If Harley feels he was erroneous in his writings, then he should put out another edition, or post his new-found beliefs somewhere on this site. Otherwise one might think he is pandering to whomever is calling his show.

Beowulf

Yes Lost different people do see things different ways- and its not just my personal opinion here typing away.

And your right, it saddens me also - that if somebody knew- it could have been prevented..sadly not always though...

I do see manipulative behaviour- but I cannot assume in the first instance that's what it is- I would never be willing to take a chance and risk a life.

Like I wrote earlier...any threats of suicide, passing mutterings of.I wanna end it all...treat it as seriously as a cardiac arrest. Get them to support and let the professionals deal with it. Even if it is crying wolf- support can be offered there aswell.

Peace

Max

Well, my undies aren't knotted. I agree with this as stated: The A is a symptom of a problem marriage. But that's not saying the same thing as both parties are responsible for the WS' choice 2 have an A. The WS could have done a number of other things, even after the BS fails 2 respond. In the case of my W's LTA, she repeatedly came 2 me for "help" but once the A started, she chose not 2 tell me everything. I couldn't help, because I didn't have all the pieces of the puzzle (as Harley talks about in SAA, which I admit I haven't read in 5 years). My W wasn't just being private, she was being secretive - lying 2 me by omission. I am not responsible for her choice 2 be dishonest with me. How could her "efforts" 2 make our marriage better be sincere if she was misleading me as 2 what the problems really were. How could I have helped make things better?


Fair enough. When I look back on the conversations we had at the beginning of the LTA and again when it restarted 7 years ago, I realize that many of her complaints about my inattentiveness weren't even true. She claimed, for example, that when I was working on my PhD, I wouldn't help her with her Master's (she's dyslexic, and I type for her while she dictates). But the truth is that I spent nearly every night working on her reports and Thesis when I was often falling-down tired from my own long days.

At one point, after d-day, when I asked her "why didn't you just divorce me back in 1993, instead of having an affair?", she replied "because I didn't think you'd finish your PhD if I divorced you". So, she unilaterally decided she was doing me a favor by having the affair?? I could have started another family, if I'd wanted 2.

No, I'm not responsible for her choice 2 have an affair rather than 1) telling me all that was going on in her life so I could truly help (assuming I could have); 2) getting us both in2 counseling (she went for a while at her college, unbeknownst 2 me until 5 1/2 years ago) or; 3) divorce me! Divorce would have been painful, I'm sure, but I could have been completely healed from it for more than 10 years by now if I'd been given the consideration of being allowed 2 make my *own* choices about my marriage.

Don't get me wrong, though. I am healed now. It's been over 5 1/2 years since d-day. But my W is still recovering, as she really only went NC some time after Rat Meat got remarried 3 years ago.


Over the 12-yr span of my W's A, both my mom and her dad passed away. My dad passed away 2 years ago.


I was accused of putting my work ahead of my family. I think it's common for people 2 become workaholics as a matter of course - "taking care of our family" kind of thinking. When my W had an EA with a coworker 25 years ago - when nobody had used the term - I was working 3 hours away and going 2 school. I typically had a few hours/week 2 spend at home, and half THAT time I was preparing for an exam!

The closest thing 2 a similar conversation that I had with my W was 17 years ago, when she told me that she was becoming attracted 2 a colleague at her university. She asked me "What consti2tes an A, so far as you're concerned?" Considering the previous EA experience and how painful that was for me (and how headstrong my W was that it was her business and not mine at the time), I gave her the only answer that I could think of: "So long as there's no sex, it's not an affair."

I thought that would help her avoid an affair. But she twisted that around 2 mean that I didn't care about her feelings, and the PA quickly followed. Does that make any sense?


I'm sure that when I worked hard, my wife thought I didn't care about her enough 2 focus on our relationship. Was it true? I don't think so, though I certainly do recognize what a clueless, typical post-adolescent male I had become. That makes me responsible for my failings as a husband, but not for her decision 2 seek another relationship without my knowledge.

]

For me, it was books like "Passionate Marriage" (David Schnarch), "The Truth About Relationships" (Greg Baer), and most importantly "The Power of Now" (Ekhardt Tolle) that saved me so that I could work on saving our marriage. I read HNHN and SAA, but they weren't as useful 2 me or our marriage recovery, particularly since my W and I have been on such different pages in our recovery from her LTA for so long. She won't touch MB or any of their publications, even now.


Okay, if that's what you believe, I won't invalidate your thinking.

My W was planning 2 leave me a number of times for RM. She even offered 2 give up her family for him more than once, but he never 2k her up on the offer. It 2k my W a very long time 2 see his "true colors" - it would have never worked out with RM. But she needed 2 figure that out for herself. Another part of her responsibility - 2 herself (and then her family). My responsibility, after discovering the affair, was 2 let her figure it out for herself, while I straightened myself out and corrected my shortcomings in the marriage.


That may be the case. As I said, I haven't read it in over 5 years. If it is his position, I don't agree with it.

best,
-ol' 2long

I didn't realize I would open a thread that would cause so much debate.

Honest, I only wanted to know if anyone had ever had it happen in their sitch so I could show WH that he was not alone.

And, I'll admit, I've debated here as well. That's why this is such a great place to be. Everyone can have their own ideas & opinions & they have a place to share that with others, even if no one agrees on anything.

My WH hasn't taken his AD for about 3 days & it shows. He was in a bad mood yesterday & I refused to let him take it out on me. One comment he made was that our decision had been made. I told him that he may have made his decision but mine was to work this out. I reminded him that we were supposed to be working on treating each other better. Later, I went to kiss him & he told me he was still mad about that confrontation. I asked to discuss it with him & he finally told me not to worry about it, he would get over it. Unfortunately, this happens when he gets off his AD. I can imagine what a bear he is at work today.

Things may be entirely different when I get home. I'm sure that most of this is withdrawal so I'm trying to not re-act to it. But he hasn't told me he thinks he doesn't love me, which is encouraging. Since d-day, he would tell me that every time this mood happened.

Things are still looking up. But the road is long & full of potholes which makes for a very bumpy ride. At the end, recovery awaits. I try to keep my eye on that.