my bummed is turning to anger as i quietly get dressed to leave. it's 6am here and everyone is sleeping. i'll be heading off to work before anyone is up.

no way i'll be saying anything sensitive today. even though i pre-faced it with a stmt that said something like if you are a hurting BS please ignore this thread, i'll betya there will be those that would jump on the chance to say hurtful words anyway.

sometimes i just hate being married, would be so much nicer to just be alone!!!

no one around to love = no one around to hurt you.

ok, anger is gone and mega bummed is back again.

why can't we just work together?

Hey FLT2H - I just got out of a meeting and I have to run... I'll check back later and will reply to your posts.

Semper Fi,

RIF

thanks for letting me know you are out there. i'll look for your reply's.

thankfully DD woke up early to finish up some homework and i got a morning hug from her. that was nice.

and then i stuck around long enough to make both kids their lunches so DH would not have to (plus it was a loving act i could do for the kids too), and I made DH some coffee and put a chocolate gold coin by the coffee. DH loves chocolate with his coffee. He was not yet up when i finally dragged myself out the door, a good 45 min late for my lab time, oh well. i did get another hug from DD though <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> boy i'm going to miss that girl next year!!! (she will be in college next year).

ya know, some days, when i make coffee and leave out chocolate i feel happy for doing a loving act.

other days i don't feel so happy about it, but i do it anyway. i never like those days cuz i am left feeling like a hypocrit. kinda like, that bible verse that says, you can do wonderful things but if you don't have love behind the actions, it's not really a wonderful thing. it's a bible verse many have during their wedding service. i know i am no where near the correct words but hopefully i have the concept stated clearly enough so that you know what i mean. (so, i'm not a bible scholor, no way i'm coming up with the actual verse)

i'm not really looking forward to talking to DH. not that i expect he will bother to call anytime early in the morning. right about now, DS is heading out the door so DH will be alone in the house. he'll say, how's your morning going and i'll either have to lie and say fine or tell the truth and have an unproductive conversation. neither choice sounds good to me.

FL

While there are some marriages that work in equilibrium of investment and withdrawal after an affair : MB-adhering marriages, so many do not reach that lofty aspiration.

BrambleRose and I were discussing this on Shinethrough's thread a few moments ago.

Why should it be that some spouses, FWS or BS, both apply, do not consider a mutually satisfying marriage to be worth some self-improvement and vulnerable effort to achieve ?

If I knew the answer to that and could bottle it I'd be rich ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

What I know is this: "enough" is a very critical word.
Either our marriage is rewarding ENOUGH for us at this time, or it is not.

My own marriage sometimes disappoints me greatly and it downcasts me after so much effort. But I always come back to the point of realising that not every car is a Ferrari 288 GTO ( my favourite ever !) but that doesn't mean they aren't good cars.

I'd rate my marriage somewhere between a TVR Tuscan S and a minivan around now and that is ENOUGH at this point in my life.

I don't know how to unleash further marriage improvements because I have done everything within my own control. Its down to Squid now and if she chooses not to, I am left with the stark choice : " is it enough?" .

Make any sense ?

I pray you have a better day than you expect !

FLTH,

What if...we do the loving acts and then feel the loving feelings? What if that verse you're thinking of was advising this...to not wait to do that which you don't feel...to act from your belief, your knowledge you love, and loving feelings will result?

Takes time and pure intent. Check your own intent. Like the verse, if you are giving to get, or to not be condemned or to not slight or earn ire...that's not an act of love. Yet, when you do the exact same thing (and I LOVE what you do with the coffee and chocolate) and know your intent comes from knowing you love and this delights, then you'll have those loving feelings as the signal.

Have you chosen to not allow yourself to do that which you will resent as an way to honor your marriage, love your DH and yourself?

LA

makes sense bob but it sure is a depressing msg.

or is that me just having a neg perspecitve as i read your post? something that at least i would have control to change.

when you ask yourself is it enough, you include "at this time"

do think your decision as to how much is enough will change once the kids are gone?

i find myself thinking that and i really don't like that about me. my commitment to really making good on the vow of till death due us part should not waver at all. but it does. not a nice thing to say about myself but it is honest.

Hi LA,

but that's just it, today i did the loving acts but i sure didn't feel any better about it cuz i was hurt and mad.

i think it is definetly about the intent thing. this morning i did the lunch/coffee/chocolate thing just to do something nice for my own sake, with the hope that i would just at least feel good about the fact that i did something nice to make the morning go smoother. not like it was going to make any big difference but just cuz it was a better choice then to leave the house earlier feeling so bad.

on the upside, i got to see DD more than if i had left quicker, and that always is a nice thing.

Fl

I'm not depressed, and I would hope my message wasn't depressing. I have let go of the expectation that I will end up with a MB poster-child marriage. Squid would rather divorce that do what is required to achieve that, so alien is it to her.

Seems to me that the only leverage a spouse has to truly spur on a reluctant spouse to actions is if they are prepared to leave the marriage over a given boundary.

I am not prepared to. Overall I have a good marriage, and it is far better for all affected parties that it stays intact.

And I try to enjoy the good bits, not mitigate them by remembering the bad bits.

Realistic acceptance isn't a bad thing IMO. I haven't lost hope of improvement but now at least the journey there wil be more pleasant.

FLTH,

I see you as being highly honest with yourself and sharing honestly. You felt hurt and mad...trace those emotions. Last night, what you shared...did you share because that's your stuff...or did you expect something in return if you shared?

If you were doing this morning to get those feelings in yourself as a result, then your intent was to make yourself feel better through others' reactions. Truly, this doesn't really work any more, does it? Did it really ever?

When you stop and breathe and say, "I own this choice...only mine to make. Am I acting from self-respect when if I do this? Can I do this right now without resentment? If you check your intent as an act of freewill, from love, not to get others to think/feel/react in some way...then you will get those feelings...not as the goal, as a byproduct. Our design.

And it's okay when you don't...because then you get other signals...all your signals are looking out for YOU. They are there for you, from you, about you. How cool is that? how cool are you!!!

And your DD...could this not be another byproduct...you are acting love...and she's seeing and responding...her choice. She's there for you. Know that. Amazing love. You're living it. With DH, your kids and yourself.

What acts of love did you do for yourself last night and this morning? How's your own self-care going?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

realistic acceptance is actually very good thought.

ok, DH called and we had a good talk, it actually seemed productive, i think i managed to aticulate well enough that he understood. sometimes i;m not so good at articulating.

he thanked me for the coffee/chocolate and for making the lunches too. go figure.

Hey FLT2H,

Looks like you’re getting some really good replies to your post…

I’m going to have to dig way back in my memory to try and remember what it was like when Mrs. RIF and I started rebuilding our M after she confessed all of her A’s from the past...

I know that you’re approaching this from the opposite side of the equation, but I think that some of the things that I learned may be of some help for you.

After the initial shock of Mrs. RIF’s confession, I was angry, hurt, bitter, confused …all of the ‘normal’ reactions that a BS feels. But I was committed to rebuilding our M because I’d made a promise to Mrs. RIF on our wedding day that I would not leave her or forsake her for better or worse… this was definitely a “worse” time! Plus, we had three girls that needed their mom and dad and I wasn’t about to abandon them by divorcing their mom.

We started counseling with a pastor at our church and then started MC. I made this a condition of me staying in the M, so Mrs. RIF basically didn’t have any say… it was either counsel with our pastor then start MC, or I would file for Divorce immediately. I was very enthusiastic about MC and Mrs. RIF was just going through the motions… I became frustrated and bitter, but I was still committed. We finished up our MC and Mrs. RIF was still reluctant to actively ‘participate’ with me in rebuilding.

Then I received deployment orders to Kosovo and left on 15 Sep 2001, right after 9/11. I tried to ‘educate’ Mrs. RIF by e-mail and that didn’t work at all… When I got back to the states in May 2002, I found MB. I’d already read SAA and didn’t really think that much of it because my initial thoughts were this book is too “easy” on the WS… after all, I’m the one that was wronged here, why should I do all of the work?

I re-read SAA and did some hard soul searching and realized that what I’d been trying for the past year hadn’t really gotten me the results that I wanted… We started MC again for a short period after I returned from Kosovo and our MC told me that in order for us to continue rebuilding our M, that I would have to go out on a limb and put my fears (of being hurt again) aside and that I would have to create a “safe” place for Mrs. RIF before she could even begin to open up to me.

It took me another couple of months or so, but I finally realized that I had to SHOW Mrs. RIF that I was willing to make needed changes in myself, not to manipulate her, but because I needed to change. After a while, Mrs. RIF started to come around and she started opening up to me and that’s when our rebuilding really took off.

I received deployment orders in November 2003 and left for Afghanistan in February 2004. Thankfully, by this time, I’d had over a year to put the MB principles to work and they were paying huge dividends in our rebuilding. I really started posting on MB during this deployment and this is where I first met Mr. Bob Pure!

FLT2H – All I can say is that as long as YOU are committed to your M, and as long as your H is committed to your M, it is up to one of you to carry the load until the other one can help you pick it up. It took Mrs. RIF almost three years to finally start rebuilding with me… I think that a more accurate statement would be… It took ME almost three years to finally understand that I had to LOVE Mrs. RIF unconditionally. That meant that I made changes with my behavior because it was the right thing to do, and not because I wanted Mrs. RIF to change. It meant that I CONSISTENTLY put Mrs. RIF’s feelings and desires above my own. It meant that I controlled my anger when I felt that things weren’t “fair”…

Your H is still with you. He might not be showing you the level of commitment that YOU want so see right now, but he’s still with you… so regardless of what you “feel”… the fact is, is that he still chooses to be married to you!

I think that if you will try to love your H unconditionally, for however long it takes, that you will start to see some changes. You can do this FL… it’s not easy, but I know that you can do it. Don’t shortchange yourself and believe the thoughts that pop up and say that you’d be better off alone. You will NOT be better off alone and you know it. You have a DH that’s committed to you in M, and you have your wonderful children that love you and care about you. When these thoughts pop up, capture them and give them to Christ. I can assure you that He doesn’t want to see you and your DH in a divorce and neither do your kids.

Stay strong FLT2H you can do this!


Semper Fi,

RIF

thanks RIF, all good words to hear.

Hiya FL!!! I am glad to hear dinner was nice. Ya'lls cabin sounds like a dream, lucky dogs!!!

I'm glad you are in a better place this week. Don't let people who are trying to drag you down and make you doubt yourself get to you. They aren't worth your time!

I'll be around to post more, busy day at work today!

Hi again,

well the day is ended and i have a few minutes to myself to post in peace. most of the day i was in lab and therefore not able to have a window open on MB much. too many eyes.

i got to peek a little and make quick posts back and ya know what. it did help.

Bob - your prayer came true, i did have a better day then i expected. thanks. and i guess your original post does not sound quite as depressing as it did when i first read it. just goes to show you, it WAS my own outlook that was making your words sound bad.

you didn't answer my question:

when you ask yourself is it enough, you include "at this time"

do think your decision as to how much is enough will change once the kids are gone?

today, this morning, my answer would of been "heck yeah!!" but now i'm back to "nope, i'm here for us not just the family". so that is good.

i'ld still rather see our marriage be a MB poster child. just saying...

LA, i missed one of your posts today and am just seeing it now.

no, i didn't need to see any reaction. just my doing it i showed myself what i am made of and that is what felt good. does that make any sense. i actually did NOT expect DH to say boo about any of it. then he did, which is why i said "go figure"

regarding relationship between DD and I. i truely thank God everyday for that. I have been blessed beyond belief when it comes to her. We have gone thru teenage years without bad times at all. it is amazing!!!

hmmm, self care.... not much and i'm getting late so this post has to be cut short now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> time to pick up DS.

before i close... RIF, from the bottom of my heart, thanks again. really! very appreciated.

FCF - i'll look for more from you later. i can relate to the busy day thing!!! thanks for the hi.

so i'm off to have a pleasant evening now.

sometimes things just don't go as planned.

the day turned around, we had a good talk on the phone. i got myself home early to take care of the kids and get a nice dinner on the table because he was not going to be home till late.

i was proud of myself for not waking him up early in the morning to talk, the old me would of done that!!

i was proud of myself for doing a couple of simple nice things before i left, the old me would not have done that either. or if i had, you would be sure i would have been waiting for him to acknowledge it or say thanks.

i was proud of myself for articulating myself so well on the phone and i believed that he was sincere when he said he understood and that i had some valid points.

i was proud of myself for not letting my emotions get the better of me (with help from my friends here).

after dinner he announced he was going to the driving range, did not ask how i felt about it, just announced he was going. i wasn't thrilled about it, sorry but given day i wasn't. so i respectfully told him. we made a compromise, he would hit a small bucket be gone for 45 min and i could pick the time, whether he would go right away and be gone while kids were up or later after kids were in bed. i voted for right away so we could be together after kids were in bed.

"he ended up hitting more balls then he expected" He was gone for 1hr and 45 min. he does not understand why i am not so thrilled.

i tried to tell him, we agreed to one thing and then you just did what you wanted and that bothers me.

he said, he had no leg to stand on, just like this morning and he was sorry.

an now i am being unreasonable cuz i'm not graciously accepting his apology.

he said he apologized and he doesn't know what else he can do.

i said i guess i just need time to stop being mad and then we move on.

i'm going to soak in a hot tub and then i'm going to bed.

Hey FLT2H - The next time your DH wants to go hit a bucket of balls, why don't you ask if you can go WITH him? I'll bet that he would love for you to spend some time with him... you could even swat a few balls.

Most guys (myself included) love it when our wife takes an interest in our hobbies... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,

RIF

hey Rif,

well i have done that on occasion. as well as asked to go golf with him. and we have golfed together at a small 9hole course that i could manage.

many years ago i took lessons in order to share in this interest of his.

he enjoys our outings well enough but i wouldn't say he would want me to be his golf partner on a regular basis. he is way out of my league given he golfed back in high school.

tonight would of been a good night and i did think about it but i didn't mention it for two reasons, DS homework which turned out didn't need my attention and because it was a bit chilly. pretty lame reasons, huh?

anyway, i'm out of the bath and i'm over it. i mean i might as well accept his apology tonight, does no one any good to wait till tommorow.

do i want to be right or married? married.

he is still downstairs watching tv, i think the cubs game is still going on. i'm going to go join him with his golf shirt on, since he is golfing tonight, he may want to even wear it.

as always, thanks for the post.

Hey FLT2H,

Hope the "Golf Shirt" worked for ya! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To be honest, there are times that I like to go fishing by myself or with my buddies, but I do appreciate the times that Mrs. RIF shows an interest... and I really appreciate it when she's not angry with me if I stay a bit later than anticipated (I always call her if I'm going to be late), but she understands that fishing is my passion, so she doesn't nag at me if I stay on the water a little longer.

I'm not saying that you're a nag!... Just that if he enjoys golfing, then try to support him even if you don't go with him. Hopefully he will be considerate of you and your feelings and will call you if he's going to be late. But just letting him know that you support his recreational activites can do wonders for his self esteem...

Mrs. RIF wasn't always this way... there was a time when I'd "Pay" for each and every fishing trip that I took... whether it was a cold shoulder when I got home, or a long list of things that I "should" have taken care of on Saturday, but didn't get done... Mrs. RIF wouldn't say "...because you went fishing."... but it was Definitely implied! It took the enjoyment of fishing away from me because I knew that I'd "pay" for my fun as soon as I got home.

Mrs. RIF has totally changed her actions and now encourages me to go fishing. She always asks how I did and if I had a good time. She doesn't bombard me with a ton of issues that need solving immediately when I get home. In other words, I can see by her actions that she is glad that I had a good time, and that she is interested in my hobby. (I still haven't gotten her to clean any of the fish I bring home, though! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />)

Go golfing with your DH when you can, and then try to really support him when he goes by himself... I think that if you try this, you'll see more appreciation from your DH.

Semper Fi,

RIF

so last night after the bath i went downstairs, just like i said i would, golf shirt on under the robe, sat next to DH and said,"well, i figure i might as well just accept your apology now and let us move on, why wait for tommorow." he said absolutely nothing, no movement on his part what so ever, no "good", no putting his arm around me so i could sit close to him, absolutely nothing.

after a long awkward silence, i said so i guess it does not matter to you? he said "yeah, it's good". continued in silence watching tv and then a few minutes later he said "i'm ready for bed."

i took off the golf shirt as he was closing down the house and left it on his chair. he came to bed we cuddled for a minute or two and then seperated and went to sleep.

how in the world do i just not say "whatever"?

RIF, in the old days i tried to be supportive of golfing but i know i was not viewed that way. even after the kids came he continued to have his sat morning tee time, and that was fine, but he would, 95% of the time, have a few drinks afterwards and then come home, be tired and nap most of the rest of the day. and no, i didn't like that. i have no problem saying that. i don't think that was very acceptable. we both worked full time, this was long before we had the vacation house, and the majority of my saturdays were me and the kids having fun. and i certainly did have fun with them, no doubt. as a single mom.

the past 3 years i have been fine with all his golfing, for the most part he keeps it to weekday play which keeps it from taking away from family time, somtimes it does feed into family time but it's not often so i've been fine with it. JL made a comment a while back that hit home. he said, if golf makes him happy why would you (I) want to deny him. you do want him to be happy right? and well, yes, i do. so on occasion when i would start to feel like it was getting to be too much i would take a deep breath and recall what JL said and my answer. golf does make him happy and i do want him to be happy.

DH on multiple occasions has said that he has in fact noticed my change in attitude regarding golf and it was apreciated.

looks like i have to be willing to accept everything and anything and never attempt to negotiate in order for this marriage to be in a peaceful state. that is not really POJA is it? and i don't think ANYONE could really be that way all the time.

FL is frustrated again.

I think Bob msg, realistic acceptance, is really the one i have to focus on. this marriage is clearly not going to be one that operates with MB's concepts.

but that just stinks.

and yes, i'm stamping my foot like a little kid and saying "not fair!!"

Bob, doesn't it ever bug you?? what do you do when it does?

just wait for it to pass?

"not fair!!"

the only positive i can find is that having the ability to choose to love anyway is something to be proud of oneself about. and that is good.

but right now, i'm just at "not fair!" (and a quiet... "this s*cks")

Hey FLT2H,

I hear you loud and clear, and yes, I can see how you would be frustrated with your situation. Let me try to put this in terms of me and Mrs. RIF so you can get some distance from the situation and perhaps see what I’m trying to say here…

The setting: Saturday Evening, 7:00 p.m., RIF is pulling in after a long day at the lake where he’s had an awesome day of fishing! He finally found a big school of huge bass and he caught the biggest bass of his life at 6:00 p.m. He knows that he is late in getting home, but he’s still pretty pumped up after a great day on the water…

RIF: Hi honey, sorry that I’m so late in getting back from the lake this evening.

Mrs. RIF: We talked about this before you left and you said that you would be back by 5:00 p.m.

RIF: I’m sorry honey, the fish really started biting and…

Mrs. RIF: I don’t care! We discussed this before you left this morning and you agreed to be home at 5:00 p.m.!

RIF: (Figures that there’s no sense in arguing says)… I’m sorry Mrs. RIF.

Mrs. RIF: We agreed that you’d be home at 5:00 p.m…. it’s 7:00 p.m. now!

RIF: I said that I was sorry…. (RIF is starting to really feel worthless because he’s disappointed Mrs. RIF again… decides that he won’t tell her about the 10 pound bass that he caught at 6:00 p.m…. because by now, he knows that Mrs. RIF isn’t going to accept any “excuse”. ) … will you forgive me?

Mrs. RIF: Hmmmph! You just do what you want to do with no thought of me and the girls….

RIF: Aren’t you going to accept my apology?

Mrs. RIF: Let me think about it. I’m still mad at you… maybe after I cool down we can move on…



Can you see anything that Mrs. RIF could have done differently that might have changed the dynamics of this little encounter?

But what would it have cost Mrs. RIF if the dialog had happened this way?:
.
.
.
RIF: I said that I was sorry…. (RIF is starting to really feel worthless because he’s disappointed Mrs. RIF again… decides that he won’t tell her about the 10 pound bass that he caught at 6:00 p.m…. because by now, he knows that Mrs. RIF isn’t going to accept any “excuse”. ) … will you forgive me?

Mrs. RIF: Yes RIF, I forgive you.


FLT2H – Mrs. RIF and I used to interact this way… We were both in “score keeping” mode for so long and it got us no where. During one of our later MC Sessions, our MC asked us if we wanted to know the five magic words to making a marriage better…. Of course, we both said yes! He said that these five words could change our marriage forever… the five words are: “I’m Sorry, I was wrong.”

He told us this as a joke, but in reality, it does work. It really doesn’t matter who is right or who is wrong… what matters is that Mrs. RIF and I learned that we had the power to either come together when these situations come up, or we could pull apart from each other.

If your goal is to come together with your DH, then the cost of saying “I forgive you” really isn’t too steep of a price to pay, is it?


Just something to think about…

Semper Fi,

RIF