LMAO! Don't do that. I did and now i have a headache. It was either that or I was about to throw my computer out the window. I am glad you were quick to call me on a point you thought might be incorrect. After all thats what we are all here for...to watch out for eachother and lend support. I would not want to be across the room from you in a court room, however.

Whew.. glad that's over for now..

Honestly now that I don't have those questions at home waiting for me to do anymore, I think I feel a lot better.

Still struggling with the 'letting go' part of all of this, and the overwhelming feeling still persists that if I, or someone my WW loves and respects can get her to see the light, that it will be -easier- to save our marriage..

Just like the longer my DS is in this situation the more it becomes the norm.. the longer my WW is wayward.. the harder the road is to come home... the harder it's going to be for me to forgive.. the stronger her emotional bond to the OM is going to become.. the harder it's going to be to go through withdrawl and actually start working on our M..

Then again there's the other side of that coin.. that she never comes out of the fog.. never admits to herself or anyone else that what she is doing is -wrong-.. even though I -know- she is aware of it on some level.. She's a stubborn, willful woman.. it's part of what I love about her.. and the part of her that makes me wonder if she'll ever be able to walk through that door again.

I know by her actions she wants me to hate her.. she's doing everything she can think of to push my buttons.. but for whatever reason, perhaps the hand of God in my life.. the more she pushes me away.. the more dirt she kicks in my face.. the more I realize that she still cares enough to want me to feel something... anything for her.. that she still wants to have her hand in my life..

My silence now is taking that away.. now it's only been a couple of days, and there's no Plan B letter.. don't think I'll be sending one for a while yet.. at least until temporary custody is determined.. but the crickets are chirping and I intend to leave it that way for as long as I can manage..

I know there will be the overwhelming urge for me to stick my head out and see where she's at.. I'll resist as best as I can.. give it time.. see how hard she will try to break the silence once it stops being a relief for her and starts being a source of concern.. however long that takes.

I'll let FIL, SIL, and DSD's grandparents fill that void and hopefully continue to encourage her along the path home.. I love my wife.. I swore my life to her, and to our children, and dedicated every day of my life for my family. Was I selfish at times? Yes.. my Taker was in charge of my personal happiness a lot.. but when it came to my kids and my wife.. I gave.. and gave until I was giving even what I did not have to give.. I was content.

She says she tried and is done trying.. but all I can get out of her for how she tried was a conversation 9 months ago when she said she was feeling lonely.. since then she says she has been taking a 'fake it till you make it' approach.. and talking about our marital problems with her dad and sister, and her friend at work... problem is, she wasn't talking to me.. I can't fix it if I get every indication that it ain't broke. Not saying I wasn't responsible for my own actions and neglect of her EN's.. but she's the one in charge of making sure she's happy.. and if she's not, she needed to be letting me know what she needed from me to be happy.

God's going to have to teach her that lesson.. I can't.. I can't teach her anything at this point.. I can only wait, with my arms open, hoping that this D doesn't destroy my family so much that there is nothing left to come home to.

Don't let your wifes insanity get to you. Just remember that your son comes first and you can attempt to straighten her out later if you decide to. Stay confident that you are doing what you need to do and right now that needs to be your main focus. Leaving your son with his mother is clearly not an option. Let this battle be your focus and forget about planning to get your wife back until you have done all you can to make sure that little boy is safe at home with you.

It's a hard battle, but you will make it.


Hope you have a great weekend!

Fresh off the golf course and thought I'd chime in on the great Hoosier thread (p.s. - Go IU).

Is there any chance that your DSD's dad would either:

1. Testify on your behalf;
2. Open up a parrellel case seeking visitation of his DSD

He may not be viewed as the greatest guy. They will make it appear that he "abandoned" his child...but, by simply filing a parrellel case...which ties her up legally fighting TWO separate battles...he can refute that.

What better way for someone to testify that your WW is NOT to be trusted with the kids best interest than to demonstrate how vindictive and manipulative she was with DSD visitation and parental rights. He could even seek FULL custody and claim alienation of parentage. He likely won't win...but at least get visitation.

You may even buddy up with him to such an extent that you offer to permit him to come to YOUR home to have his local visitations (I say this because I believe he lives far away and would have to do some or all visitation local).

Just an idea...I know you Boilermakers can't think of everything.

Mr. Wondering

GREAT thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice, MrW!

And that's why he gets paid the big bucks.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been made aware through the familial grapevine that he has agreed to A) Testify in my case, and B) is launching a case first for contempt of the court order for visitation in his D, and C) will be seeking custody.. he's also called CPS and lodged a complaint.. which is one of the reasons I haven't.. we're waiting to see what the paperwork says.. we're pretty confident they won't pull the kids out.. trust me I've seen them leave kids in much worse situations.. but at least it'll be on record.

We'll be fighting our battles simultaniously and we'll be helping eachother along the way.

Good thought Mr. W.. but this time the Purdue grad actually had the right foot in front of him.

Honestly though I'm conflicted about it.. I'm not totally convinced that he would be the best option for his daughter.. I'd -much- rather see her go to his Dad and Stepmom... at least there I wouldn't worry about her.

Oh MrWondering...i have lost so much faith in you (IU?) Sigh.

James - This is a very good thing to have your DSD's dad in your corner. It may not be the ideal situation involving him, but it will help you immensly. I would still lodge a complaint with the CPS on your own. It will look better if you have two complaints. Do it now so that they will be around the same time. At least have it on record that you filed a complaint. Since you feel like his case is not a good one for custody, let him take care of doing some of the damage for you.

You will remain the respondible parent but the end result will be the same.

My prayers are still with you (and for MrWonderings..that he will come to see the light concerning his choice of loyalty to IU....shameful) lol

GO BOILERMAKERS!!!!!!!!!!

I go to see my lawyer tomorrow regarding the initial batch of financial records and the information regarding the custody case. She's asked for a ton of stuff but I'll make sure I've got everything and just take out what my lawyer says I won't need to provide her.

I'm sure she's setting up for depositions and stuff like that in the meantime.. My lawyer -should- have by now sent her a similar set of questions.

Been in touch indirectly with the IL's.. seems like they're still putting a lot of pressure on the A.. which is nice considering I figured they'd probably step back to preserve whatever relationship they have with WW.. however I'm glad to find out that they really do stand behind their convictions and our M.

She's avoiding them though.. content probably with her new 'family' supporting her every move, believing all the bad things she's saying about me, and the revisionist history of our M.

The kid exchange went well.. didn't say anything to her other than to tell her about our DS's bowel problem.. provided her with a bottle of kids Pepto Bismol and a fresh tube of Desitin.. poor guy is raw raw raw from all the BMs this weekend... he's getting really good about telling when he has to go.. I think we're -almost- there on the final hurdle for potty training.. I suppose we'll see if she's following up on Wednesday.

I just said the minimums guys.. other than that with the exception of an email exchange she initiated on Saturday it's been crickets.

The email exchange wasn't anything major though.. she asked if I wanted her to pick him up at 4 or 4:30... As if it's been anything -other- than 4:30 for the last six weeks. My reply was all of one sentance: 5:00 will be fine.

I think I'm doing good... and her even asking that question tells me the silence is starting to have the desired effect. No hard looks today at the exchange.. and she even seemed pleasant.. didn't look too concerned about DS's tummy issues.. but that's not unusual.. she did check the overnight bag to make sure I put in the stuff I said I did though.. ahh well... honestly after discovering more about the depths of deception I've been dealing with for 4 years.. I almost wonder if all the effort I'm putting in to keep the door open for reconciliation is even worth it.

Took DS to Mass this morning.. the liturgy was all about suffering and strife, and giving it to God.. it has it's place and its purpose.. and only He knows why and what the final outcome will be. I've never been a man of devout faith, but I really felt that it spoke directly to me today.

I'm not Catholic.. but I did take communion for the first time in 8 years today. I was so at peace finally.. given my confessions via prayer over the last week.. I felt ready to totally give it over to God and see what His plan is for me. Maybe it will help me truly let go. I'm not giving up.. if anything else the other point of the liturgy was that God knew when he granted us free will, that he would suffer the pain of having to cast us out of the garden and into the wilderness.. but He had the patience and understanding to wait, simply loving and forgiving until we came to him in repentance.

I only hope that I can endure the trials and have that patience if my WW turns the corner.

I don't see that happening as long as she is being influenced by her coworker, that family, and wonderboy (who I am starting to believe is the driving force in their R.. )

Ahh well.. I'm feeling good at least. Comfortable in my skin.. comfortable that I have turned the corner for myself in taking the responsibilities for my shortcomings and am starting to work on what I can work on.. for myself... not for her.

Still listening to a lot of Tool.. I've been a fan for years, but their music has -never- spoken to me so well as it has recently.. Song of the Day:

The Grudge

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Saturn ascends, comes round again.
Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper.

Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper.

Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.

Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
Drags you down like a stone
To consume you till you choose to let this go.

Give away the stone.
Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
Give away the stone.
Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold.
Let go.

James,



PERFECT!

Glad you are also getting yourself some good spiritual support, too! It is up to God to deal with WW = so when you get down about all of the negative'influence' of the folks you mention, remember who is on YOUR side & that HIS power is much greater! Trust in Him to deal with her.

Sounds like you are doing really, really, well!

Been in touch indirectly with the IL's.. seems like they're still putting a lot of pressure on the A.. ... they really do stand behind their convictions and our M.

For now.

My reply was all of one sentance

Good good, but you spell it sentence, dude.

I almost wonder if all the effort I'm putting in to keep the door open for reconciliation is even worth it.

Well... I don't know. It's good that you wonder. Means you're not *crazy*.

There is a point of no return. For many WSes (particularly women) it doesn't take long to reach that point.

You may not have reached it, or at least for now you can say you have not reached it. But for her the point of no return is the point at which (besides lacking the motivation) she possesses too little of any of the following virtues:

Courage
Humility
Patience
Compassion

to be able to give you what you need for a recovery of your marriage to happen.

I know you hope that she is a wonderful human being, and has the depth of character to repair her relationship with you.

But please, be honest. Does this woman possess these virtues in great enough quantity, really? Did she ever?

Only you can say.

I remember the time when my wife was having an affair very clearly. Technically, I would have taken her back at any point before our divorce was final. But honestly, within weeks of her departure and affair-partner-shack-up, I knew, deep down, that she didn't have what it takes. I hoped she did. I wanted to believe in her. I kept my awareness of her limits at arm's length.

But I knew the truth all along. I saw her for what she is, and I suffered an awful lot because I didn't act accordingly. Yeah, 20/20 hindsight.

My wife had former friends she had hurt and who avoided her. She always had a good explanation for that. But I don't remember a time when that girl placed the blame for any conflict or trouble she'd had on herself. Someone else was always the perpetrator.

Old M. Scott Peck would have called that a "character problem".

When you think about the future put your attachment to your wife aside as best you can and make a realistic assessment.

Yeah, keeping the door open does allow you to, no matter what happens, walk away knowing you did everything you could.

Which ain't all that, you ask me.

Just because you can leave the door open (which makes you a good and forgiving person) that doesn't mean you should.

Just sayin'.

GC

GC... you're probably right.

Honestly my WW is very much the same way.. almost never taking responsibility for herself or her actions. I can't remember a time when she didn't shift the blame for anything, even minor stuff onto someone else.

I don't know though.. perhaps that is what God has in store for her to learn throughout this whole experience. I have to have faith that He knows what is best.

That isn't to say I'm hanging on. Honestly after todays conversation with my lawyer.. with some of the allegations I'm going to make for the custody portion of our D.. I imagine -that- will be the point of no return for her. Either that or it could be a breaking point where the fog clears for a moment. I'm not holding my breath though.

I am starting to resent the fact that I love her so much even despite her flaws.. I'm starting to resent the fact that of the two of us, I'm the only one who truly loved..

I feel so used.. I honestly feel like I've been a fool for all of these years.

All of it.. just is weighing on me very heavily today.. especially as I prepare to go over all of this stuff with my lawyer.

Pray for me, my friends.. pray for my wife and children.. pray that whatever the outcome it is for the best for all of us.

James,

Chin up today. You will make it through doing what you have to do. You are a strong man. You have lots of folks cheering you on & praying for you. You have kids that love you!

Today ,with your lawye,r focus on what you know has to be done. If you fall apart later, don't be surprised. It's ok and very normal.

Praying for you!

{{{James}}}

Thanks Bugsmom... honestly I feel like I'm on the verge of falling apart already today.. I don't -want- to have to do this.

It's going to get very ugly and I'm going to have to stay very dark throughout all of this if I'm going to make it.. self preservation I think.

Greycloud's words though are really resonating with me though.. I don't think she has -any- of those character points in enough quantity to really make a go at reconciliation.. the woman I married did.. the woman she's become I feel has none of these qualities in any measurable supply.

I'm set to call in the radio show today.. so maybe that will help.. but I'm not counting on any major breakthroughs just talking to people on a broadcast..

I still want the best for my wife and children though.. and I feel very strongly that I am that 'best thing'.. perhaps it's a little -too- selfless of me to continue putting myself through ****** when It'd be that much easier just to emotionally detach and save myself the suffering.. for a cause that is almost totally lost.

Ironically the name 'Jude' plays very strongly in our extended family.. as in St. Jude.. the patron saint of lost causes..

One of the things that she said a week and a half ago really bothers me though... we had been talking and I made mention of our vows.. and she railed, saying that I'd broken them too.. she said 'To put first above all others'... and it didn't occur to me until this weekend that the vow she had misquoted was 'Forsaking all others' which speaks directly to infidelity... it's been bothering me a lot actually..

I dunno.. I'm torn.. I hurt bad today. I don't know how to focus my mind on anything else right now.. and I'm fairly certain I'm in for a good long cry tonight, if not sooner.. I feel like I'm teetering on the edge of a cliff and everything in me wants to jump.. but my spirit is crying out to save myself..

James,



What you are doing IS HARD, but it sounds to me, what you also believe to be the 'right' thing to do, , for you & your family. Atleast for now.

I told myself, and it is true to this very moment, that no matter WHAT happens, I want to be able to look back and know, for myself, that I did everything I could to save my M, and that I did so with class & when I think about all of my actions, I can hold my head high. I believe this is what I've heard you saying that you want for yourself - - and it is VERY hard, my friend, but worth the effort! Even when it turns out as mine did. It was worth the effort for ME & my peace of mind.



IRONIC, isn't it? Try not to dwell too much on what she says right now. Remember, actions speak louder than words. She's going to ATTACK you as a defensive move. You know already what your faults are, and are working to improve yourself. Don't let her sidetrack you!

Hang in there!!

Don't let your wife put her problems onto you. Have you ever cheated on your wife? If not, then she broke that vow not you. My H is always trying to put his failings off on me. Since our remarriage he has treated me like I am the one who cheated...not him. I am not allowed to go anywhere without him instead of the other way around. It is a problem we are trying to work thru. Not very successfully either I might add.

If you don't feel that your wife has any of the qualities you know you need to make a marriage work, then why are you trying to get her to come home? She will only do this again. I would search your heart and find out if your wife really is worth your time. Love does not cure all. You might love her, but it doesn't mean she will change. Be careful you don't lead yourself down the same road again.

Well see.. that's the problem.. my wife had those qualities.. not always in abundance.. and she did have a very difficult time accepting blame or responsibility... I do remember one occasion clearly that she did pull something particularly boneheaded, and I called her on it.. didn't budge.. and she backed down... was -very- hard on herself as a result.. the argument got pretty heated.. but ultimately it wasn't life threatening or anything.. but she took it really hard..

I almost wonder if that -level- of confrontation with her isn't what she needs now.. of course it'd be -major- LB's DJ's and such at this point... no.. in order to do it the MB way I'm going to have to wait for the A to end... if it ever does..

Sorry for the TJ...but GC, what you are describing is a prelude to abuse....heck, in a way it is already abusive.

Well... called in to the radio show today.. best advice they gave was to do a modified plan B.. where I'm nice, available, and cordial to her.. but no R talk..

They seemed to think that it might take 2 years.. but that she would in that span of time probably think of me as an option often..

Not sure how to proceed.. it's not even two months and I'm already almost at a point to say.. feh..

I suppose I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and try to make every in person interaction with her as good as possible.

Not sure I have that patience though.. but to know the people whose opinions deep down she values the most do not approve.. maybe it'll bring a quicker end to the A.. Still.. I don't think much will be accomplished so long as she's in that 'support group' environment of hers.. but so long as she's working with wonderboy's mom.. it's just going to drag on and on I imagine..


Maybe it's time to cash in what chips I have left and move on.. Heck.. I know it'd make MEDC happy at least.. (JK.. not here to make MEDC happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).. I am here to save my M.. just need to work on the patience aspect of it..


On another note.. my 'breakdown' as it were is postponed.. got a call from the lawyer today.. they think that they've got the judge nailed down and we should have a date soon.. on the downside, he wasn't able to meet with me today, so I'll have to reschedule.