Was told to repost this here.. was origonally in the just found out section..


WW(27) and I(31) 'celebrated' our 3rd wedding anniversary on August 7. It wasn't much of a celebration though, I gave her a watch to wear with her fashonable work clothes and replace the old watch she had when we first met (which she says I -knew- since our son(3) was born any jewlery irritated her skin.. Admittedly I had thought she stopped wearing the old one because my son slobbered over it constantly as an infant). I received flowers and chocolates with a note that said: If I had to do it over I'd marry you all over again. You are my partner and my best friend.

For a few weeks at this point she had been staying late at work and even going in for a few hours some weekends to catch up on things with a coworker(very heavy case load as she works as a paralegal in a law office dealing with family law). She had been talking on the phone to her coworker (OM's mother) a lot, and had been taking it to other rooms in the house citing the noise level where the kids and I were at as the reason. Spent a couple weekends in a row at the coworkers house even. She even took our kids with her when she went. I didn't think anything of it, she'd never given me any reason to suspect anything was up, even telling me often about the people that hit on her and how absurd it was when she's got the rings on her finger, and we often laughed about it together.

Exactly one week after our anniversary she's storming around the house talking on the phone with her coworker friend acting extremely angry about things. I ask her what is wrong and she says she doesn't want to talk about it. This is pretty normal, but I pressed and it all came out. She hasn't been happy since we've been married. She feels like I ignore her and the kids, and can't deal with my mother or deal with how she perceives I treat my daughter different from hers. To explain, we have a yours, mine, and ours situation. My daughter is 12, hers 8, and our son 3.

After she lays all of this out, I try to start a dialogue about the problems and present calm logical thoughts.. I know there was panic in my voice as she kept saying the words 'I just can't do this anymore'.. and then the walls all went up, and it was just me talking... and talking.. and trying to get her to see that it was all stuff that we could correct... apparently I pushed her even farther away doing this.

Thursday, August 16 she informs me that she can't 'think' in the house with me and is taking the children to stay with her coworker (at this point I still don't know where her coworker lives). She says she's just going to 'think' and won't drag this out.. for the kids sake.

Every opportunity to talk to her I essentially spent pleading with her to come home so we could start working this out. I printed out all of the MB FAQ's and basic concepts and tried to get her to read it as a way forward for us to help put our marriage back on the right track. It was like throwing water at a wall, I don't think anything was getting through.

I checked the cell phone bill after some questionable comments she had made about 'text messages' on our bill, and discovered that she had been calling a strange number all week. I soon discovered that this number was the coworkers son (OM age 26). The calls were in the morning after I went to work and just before she started, or at night after she said that she had gone to bed early because she was tired and stressed out from work. There were 86 text messages starting the Monday before our fight all the way up until the Saturday she left to this same number. It was clear to me on Friday so I came home from work to confront her at lunch when she was to come let our dog out.

When I asked her about the number she lied and told me that it was the coworker's husband she was talking to in the mornings. Go figure... so I asked about the OM by name and she said 'Oh he's just a friend'... it's like these people have a script they read from.

By Monday I had her answer.. she left me a note when she had come home to let the dog out that she has spent her whole life being unhappy.. and the last few days away from me she has found happiness again, and cannot 'risk' being unhappy ever again. She wants a Divorce.. and we could talk on the phone about it that night and decide how we were going to do this amicably... for the kids sake.

We agreed on just about everything that we wanted of the marital assets (more like marital debt but anyhow) and that we would have joint custody of our mutual child. She would make up all the forms and give it to her lawyer to sign and it wouldn't cost us a fortune to get divorced. I even gave her the money to file.. I have no idea why I was acting like such an idiot to agree to all of it...

So two weeks after our anniversary where she said she would marry me all over again, we're filed for divorce.. she's living at the coworkers house and my kids are sharing a room with her coworkers kid and 5 dogs. It's been like this ever since.

I keep hearing more and more the kids talking about the coworkers son (OM) and how he's tucking them in at night and taking care of them while mommy is at work. He's moved out of his apartment and back in with mom and dad.. he stays in mommys room but its 'ok' because they have their pajamas on. It kills me that my kids aren't even immune to the lies..

I found out for sure when I dropped the kids off the first weekend and confronted the OM. Looked him in the eye and said to him that if he was going to be the man in my wife's life, and subsequently in my kids lives, that he had better be a 'MAN' in front of them. I shook his hand and wished him luck and turned to my wife and told her that had she told me about all of this sooner it would have been much easier to cope with. She still claimed that they were 'just friends when all of this started'.. I'm sure she'd really like for me to be able to believe that.. but I know that I'm dealing with nothing but lies and deceit now.

Still... I offer her at every turn the opportunity for forgiveness, and a desire to understand. Trying the plan A thing, trying to be calm and not plead with her over the phone but sometimes I lose that control and end up trying to convince her that things could be better (I know.. LB big time right?).

I exposed to her dad (divorced 5 times), her sister (very very Catholic now that shes in her 2nd marriage), her daughters grandparents (the grandfather is also our son's Godfather), and even to the coworker (OM's mother). As of yesterday I got a request from her lawyer to stop all contact with her 'family'.

I've exposed... and I've been offering her the opportunity to go with me and the kids when I have them.. and when she refuses we go have tons of fun without her anyway. I know that's all Plan A stuff right? I've offered her the opportunity for forgiveness and understanding.. and I know it's only been 3 weeks, but I feel like I'm running out of time as the divorce could be final as quickly as 40 days from now.

I need help.. I need ideas.. things that work. She's completely cold to me, and I'm losing hope that she will ever want to work things out and come back home.

I think I have a lot to offer.. I've been the only father figure in her daughters life for the last 3 years until now. In all respects except legally her little one considers me dad. I've been a good father to our son, worked so that she could stay home with him after he was born and not go back to a job she hated, kept supporting the family for the next 2 years while she went to school to get her legal secretary degree. Once she started working I bought us a house that isn't even a year old at this point. Everything she ever said she wanted I moved heaven and earth to try and provide. Thought I was showing my love for her in the every day ways like bringing home a good wage for the family.. cooking dinner.. dishes.. clean up the downstairs.. help the kids with their homework. All things I didn't want to do all the time, but it made our family work.. and I thought everything was fine. Even the message with the flowers on our anniversary suggested things were going great... and now this.

My head is spinning.. I don't think I'm completely in control of me.. but I do know the environment that I helped to create that weakened the marriage. Still, it was not my choice for her to choose him over our family.. and I won't take responsibility for that.

Please help.. any ideas.. any questions.. any suggestions, please. I'm growing desperate to hang on to hope and not embrace the anger and frustration I feel. But she just doesn't want to try anymore..

Contact a lawyer immediately and find a way to get your child out of this situation.
You need a lot of help here and while we can offer some advice...you need to get your child out of that home immediately. Once the child is with you, do not give him back unless a court orders you to do so.
Stop cooperating in the divorce process unless you are being offered custody of your son.
Why you shook that pos hand is beyond me...you are offering to legitimize that relatioship....DON'T.
I am assuming you have NOT let your 12 year old daughter so much as visit that home.
PLEASE ... fight to gain full custody of your child. FIGHT!

I talked to my lawyer about the custody situation. His opinion is that I keep a log, a journal of anything that is 'off' with the kids, and we'll bring it up before the final hearing and slug it out then...

it will be a fight I'm sure. I know she loves those kids, but she is certainly not acting in their interest.. she's certainly not acting in a way that is ever possibly going to benefit them...

I think she just wants the $170 a week in support to finance a love nest for her and her new man..

Aaaaaarg this is sooooo frustrating!!

Did you already sign divorce paperwork and agree to allow your son to be with her in the OM's parents home???

I presume she hasn't taken your 12 year old daughter with her....correct???

Unless you've adopted the her daughter your not likely to win much custody there but you should be FIGHTING this divorce and custody situation tooth and nail.

BTW, how did you two meet and end up dating, then married. Your enabling and acceptance of this situation suggests, merely suggests, that you and her are likely an affair marriage yourselves. If so...your wife has a history of this and doesn't value marriage and commitment she is unlikley to be responsive to Plan A at all.

Finally, don't sweat the watch gift. Her complaints are merely rationalizations and justifications. If you got her a truck full of diamonds she would have complained about where she'd find the room to park the truck.

Mr. Wondering

please go back and read my post again...she has NO RIGHT to remove your child from his home...why did you allow this to happen.

Has your daughter ever visited that home???

This just boggles my mind. You shook OM's hand? You should be exposing to anyone and everyone that knows your WW or OM to let them feel some heat. I'm not a legal expert, but if your WW's coworker is representing your WW, couldn't she be thrown off the case because of a conflict of interest? After all, her son is committing adultery with her client. Tell EVERYONE about your WW's behavior and her affair. Tell her family, friends, EVERYONE. Stop enabling!

I've signed the Stipulation in Lieu of Provisional Orders.. this hasn't even been in front of a judge yet. It says that she is the custodial parent in joint custody of our child and sets a support amount.

We met through a friend of mine I was in a band with, and we got together at one of our shows. Started talking and a few weeks later became serious. I don't think there was anyone else involved at the time, but she had been divorced from her first husband for almost a year. Got pregnant very quick with our son (within the first few weeks) and we ended up getting a place together in January, son born in February, and married in August.

The terrible thing though is that the way she left her ex husband and what she told him sounds exactly like what she is saying to me. I have no idea if she left him for someone else or not.. honestly I don't know what to believe of anything she has ever told me at this point.

She insisted on a Catholic wedding because this was forever.. all the promises we made to eachother inside or outside of the church now mean absolutely zero to her. It's like living with a two headed monster.

My daughter stayed in the car when I dropped off our kids, but she has been to the house.. not inside it.

I called my lawyer yesterday and he said to just log everything and we'd fight it out at the end... I'm not sure what to do at this point.. I believe you are so right.. that I have to get him out of this.. but I feel so powerless..

WW's coworker is also a paralegal.. but not the lawyer representing her.. I'd love to be able to take that angle but I'm not sure it's an option there..

I've told her family.. heck I was the one that informed them that she was filing for D.. and they are furious with her.. I'm sure that's why I got the request. It's not a restraining order.. so I'm not sure if I'm even going to comply with it... I don't want to.. but I don't want to make things worse between her and I -if- there is a possibility for reconciliation..

you are powerless because YOU are giving away your power.

Call YOUR lawyer and let him know that your WW being the custodial parent is not okay and that you do NOT agree that your child should be there...she is an unfit mother in a bad situation.

I have done just that.. left a message for him. I'm starting to get the feeling that he may not be the tiger I need.. I have to get over the fact that this isn't going to be pretty...

But let me ask you this.. if the ultimate goal is reconciliation.. doesn't this hurt rather than help?

No.

You can't reconcile until your wife's affair is over. This will bring about the end of her affair more quickly. Trust me, if you can get over her doing this to you, she can get over you doing whatever it takes to fight for your marriage. Rolling over will cause her to lose respect for you. I stood up to my WW and it made her furious, but we are recovering now. Once her affair with OM is over, she'll come out of the fog and realize that she did this to herself and she is the one to blame for the consequences of her affair. My WW told me she would never forgive me when I exposed and was about to kick her out. Guess what, she only said that to manipulate me into allowing her affair. Don't fall for it.

Jamesus,

Appeasement doesn't work. It only further fuels the WW's entlement making them become more of a monster.



Why? Why, why, why, why would you do this. You do realize that OM should not be around your child. You have no say for the child she had before you, unless you adopted her as Mr. W said (most likely). But please protect your children.

Have you any idea what it is like for children to be subjected to the WS's affair partner. You don't know what he is capable of. He is the enemy. You don't allow your children around the enemy.

Yes, maybe find a different lawyer ASAP if you need to, but do everything you can to get that stopped and changed.

We have a man in town whose WW took off with his FIVE children to OM's house and he went to the court house filled out a request for an emergency hearing with the judge, it was granted, and the judge sent police to the OM's to retreive the children back to the dad's house with a note from the judge himself saying that the children were not to be removed from the family home again and not to be subjected to the stranger OM.

Take care and please remain strong. Remember this is counterintuitive.

Appeasement does not work, not with a wayward. And it won't protect your children or you.

Get strong. Two of these children have already been through this gawd awful chaos in their life. They need you to be strong and stable. They should not have to go through more strangers and upheaval. Poor babies.

You make a lot of sense Jim..

I'm done lying down and hoping for the best. I've thought so far I've been fighting so hard to get her to see that this marriage can work.. but that's not really fighting.. that's just talk.

I have to act.. right?

I'm going to have my lawyer stop the Stipulation in Lieu of Provisional orders... going to fight.. going to see if there is anything I can do about this 'request' of hers.. I should have every right to speak to my child's grandfather and aunt..

I'll talk to my lawyer about an emergency injunction etc...

I think the daycare will help me, as they are not comfortable at all with the OM dropping my son off in the mornings..

I just need to know what I have to do.

Buckle your seatbelt. And keep talking to these people here who are helping you. Most everyone here has been through similar.

Read "Surviving an Affair". Get on AD's if you need to.

Post specific questions as often as possible, vent here and gain strength here and in your God.

Most of all hang on.

You MAY be able to claim that the Stipulation in lieu of Provisional orders was signed by you under false pretenses. For example...you had NO IDEA, at the time of signing it that she was co-habitating with OM in OM's parents home. You didn't know she was sharing a bed with OM in such home DIRECTLY in front of your children.

It's very tough to win custody of a 3 year old child but if you get the right judge you may just win but as I've said on here MANY times before...children grow up. You need to DOCUMENT a fight today so at the very least you can demonstrate, with PROOF, later on that you weren't the bad guy, you didn't destroy your family, you fought for your son, you had integrity and she didn't. If you don't fight NOW...as your 3 y/o son ages...history will be skew'd, dramatically and your then older son will not know who to believe and instead grow up morally and forever confused.

Find out how binding the stipulation is. Giving up temporary custody is merely giving it away permantently as the court will be hesitant to change an agreed to arangement. Quash the stip agreement and fight. You may lose anyway but at least you stood up for yourself.

BTW...her lawyer's letter asking you to stop exposing isn't binding at all. You are free to expose all you want but do it the MB way. No vindication...just informing others of the secret and asking for their help, thoughts and prayers for your family.

Mr. W

To me the ultimate goal is to protect your child...hopefully your wife will follow.

Father's are gaining ground every single day int he courts...fight. I say this as a dad with complete full custody.

fight...and then fight some more...even if you don't win the first battle...keep fighting...document...etc. If your wife is sleeping in a bed with her children in the same room with man that IS NOT her H...call child protective services immediately...This is NOT okay. The report from CPS can be part of your documentation.

Remember....fight.

Very well said. It is so important for children to know and have a strong sense of who their parents are. And we can only do this through actions.

I for one, and I know there are many others, who are so very thankful that you are here helping these parents and their children, Mr. W. As well as helping people preserve the integrity and sanctity of family and marriage.

I want to KISS that judge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jamesus...If you need to talk at any point regarding this fight...email me and I will send you my phone number.
I have walked in your shoes and I want you to know that there is hope.

Email sent....and THANK YOU... I feel like I need a lifeline right now..

He's very family oriented, and he can spot bullpucky from a mile away.

It's interesting that so many people in the legal field are getting sick and tired right up to their eyeballs of this type of thing. We have some great atty's too, a lot unfortunately will no longer handle custody issues for their own protection (vexation to the soul and inner conflict). One of our towns most beloved lawyer's recently left the legal field to become a monk.

But back to Jamesus.

Aww Weave that was nice to read...there are times when I wish Mr. W would decide to practice divorce law REFUSING to represent any and all WSes...I think he'd be GREAT at it, but I'm a bit biased obviously...lol...

Jamesus...email Mr. W and I at the address in my signature...We have a document that we purchased for another MB friend about father's winning custody that we would be glad to pass along to you...

Mrs. Wondering

Jamesus...I would seek an emergency petition...call the courthouse yourself today to see how this is done.
And please call child protective services today too.

link to Indiana child custody factors...

NOTE the section that refers to "all individuals involved."

you need someone to evaluate this home and "man." CPS

http://www.divorcesupport.com/divorce/Indiana-Child-Custody-Factors-522.html

perhaps a call to this lawyer will help.
http://www.stanleyrobison.com/CM/FSDP/PracticeCenter/Family-Law/Divorce.asp

Thank you all for your help and support. I'm trying to do these things now.

I just hope that I'm doing the right thing..

Trust us. We've all been where you are before, and we have experience with this kind of stuff. We know exactly what you are going through.

Thanks again everyone.

I've talked to my lawyer, we're going to squash the Stipulation in Lieu of Provisional Orders as it has not yet been filed. We're going to stipulate that my son stays with me.

Looks like we're going to get to fight it out in front of a judge. I'm not dropping off Alex on Sunday.. at least, I don't plan to. I have her daughter here with me for the weekend as well. I will have to drop her off but I don't know.. would it look bad if I didn't drop off my son? Would she be able to use that against me if I'm seeking custody?

Discuss this with your lawyer. I would think it would be okay if you already filed.

Sorry guys.. I'm waffling here, I know..

I don't know whether or not it is going to be better to drop him off.. or keep him here.

I wasn't able to get ahold of my lawyer before the end of the day today to ask if it is ok for me to keep him.. I don't want to mess this up if me keeping him against her will would hurt my position with the court.

"But let me ask you this.. if the ultimate goal is reconciliation.. doesn't this hurt rather than help?"

As already noted the primary goal is protecting your children from the WS and the OP. IF/when your WS returns to sanity, then reconciliation may follow. Reconciliation doesn't happen with a WS, but with a FORMER WS (FWS); and a FWS that is really ready for reconciliation will not hold a grudge about you acting to protect your marriage and family.

Yes, anything you say or do that is not 100% endorsement of the adultery will anger the adulterers. So what? You HAVE to teach your children that adultery is wrong. And you have to protect that from the adulterers.

Another suggestion: Contact your WW's first husband, the father of her daughter. He may be willing to give you some info that can assist you in a custody battle. PLUS he may be concerned about the OM his daughter is spending time with now.

Your WW might be a serial adulterer. It sounds as if she's done this before? And her father has had 5 divorces?!?!? Has your WW ever been to any counseling about her father? What sort of comments had she made in the past about her father's divorces?

You mentioned that you were married in a Catholic church. Have you exposed the adultery to the priest?

Also, if I were you I would give written instructions to the daycare that they do NOT have your permission to allow the OM to pick up your son! Make sure the daycare knows that a copy of the letter is going to your (NEW) lawyer. Even if the daycare can't do anything about it at least you will have it in writing that you protested (and probably they will be intimidated by the letter enough to tell your WW they 'cannot' allow OM to pick up your son even if technically they can...)

I definitely would hire a new lawyer ASAP. Believe me it can be very frustrating trying to convince your own lawyer to stick up for you! PLUS every time you have to e-mail, phone call, or meet with your lawyer you are billed for it. You certainly don't want to have to PAY EXTRA just because you have to talk to your lawyer more because you have to convince him to do his job for you.

I also agree with the advice to contact social services to see if there's any way to protect your children from exposure to the OM and the adultery. Even if they can't do anything for you, it will at least be another documentation of your effort to protect your children.

Oh, also my WH tried to stop me from talkign to his family and coworkers... It's a pretty typical WS tactic. The WS will pretend that the people you are contacting complained to them about you and that they want you to not contact them. Unless you hear this from the folks yourself - don't believe it.

Of course, be respectful, don't call before 9 AM or after 9 PM, don't talk too long, normal courtesy stuff... I even asked if they minded me calling (they told me they didn't but WS claimed they did).

The adulterers hate exposure. But when the A ends they eventually get over it.

James,
Be strong. I hope the phone calls went well today. Do not forget to mention to CPS and your lawyer that she went AWOL on her first H with their child. That may be very important.
Call, email or post if you need to talk...we have seen this stuff before and while it isn't easy or pleasant will get through this.

how are things today ?

Slightly edited from my divorce journal for this weekend:


Friday Picked up my son from daycare, got confirmation that OM brought him to daycare again today. Apparently son has not been at daycare all week except for Wednesday and Friday (the days I am to come to pick him up). Got stepdaughter home from the bus. Both kids are tired, as WW had them out very late Thursday night at OM’s baseball game. Stepdaughter’s homework appears to have been looked over and signed off on by OM. I made a copy of one of the papers to document. Stepdaughter also volunteers Friday night that OM has been the one helping them with baths and get ready for bed, not WW. This is very troubling, why are our kids naked in front of this man? Son’s temporary tattoo from Aug 26 is –still- present. Washed off easily in the bath I gave him tonight. Stepdaughter took a bath too, her hair is now no longer stringy and full of dirt, and the grubby remains of her temporary tattoo are gone now as well. They aren’t washing very well at all when they do wash apparently.

Saturday was interesting, I took the kids to my friends house. My daughter, stepdaughter, and son all love playing with those kids and it'd give me a chance to refocus myself on just spending time with the kids and friends and not worrying about what's going on with her. WW called though to talk to the kids, and when Stepdaughter handed me the phone, the OM was on the end of the line thinking I wanted to talk to him. I told him that I didn't have anything to say to him, and wanted to talk to my wife. He took some offense to that, apparently as he answered the phone when I called back to discuss next week with WW. He had me on the phone for over an hour wanting to talk to me like he and I could possibly be ok with eachother. Three times on the phone he made the veiled threat that if there wasn't going to be mutual respect between us that he'd have to be a particular way that he didn't want to be but would if I forced him... not entirely sure what that means, but I took great offense to him trying to intimidate me about matters that are none of his concern and none of his business. The phone conversation finally ended with my phone battery dying, so after getting the kids settled in when I got home, I called back to talk to WW. We actually started communicating for the first time during this whole mess (Funny -now- she wants to talk) and I made my wishes explicitly clear that if our son is supposed to be at daycare, that she better make sure he gets there, and that she is taking him, not leaving him all day with OM. She agreed to this Saturday night and we talked a little about 'us' (no real progress here.. but it's good she's willing to start talking about it at all) and then hung up.

Sunday things really took a turn. Had a great day with all 3 kids. We played for about an hour at McDonalds after eating breakfast, and then came home and my daughter helped my stepdaughter find some fun activities to do on the computer. Stepdaughter's really becoming quite the tech wiz, and I'm constantly amazed at how naturally computers come to these kids. Even my son was playing games on the Disney site and was doing pretty good considering he's only 3. We hung out and played with the dog until about 2 when we headed over to my moms house. There we ended up in a game of hide and seek. One of the times I was hiding my son was running around upstairs and wound up bumping his eye on the corner of one of moms tables. When I came out of hiding he was upstairs with my mom, crying. He came to me immediately and settled down within a few minutes. Going to have a heck of a shiner on that one. More on that in a minute though.

When I dropped son and stepdaughter off at the place where she is staying I didn't say a word to anyone other than to ask OM to help carry some of the stuff that the kids wanted to bring over there, and some odds and ends I discovered that she didn't list on her initial batch of items. The kids were ushered inside without even allowing me to say goodbye to them, so I knew something was up. As I was pulling out of the driveway OM's stepfather comes out and flags me down. I pull back into the drive and roll down the window and he starts making these threats to 'kick your [censored] if you ever call my wife a liar again'. Apparently WW made it out to be like I denied having a conversation with her friend from work, which I never for a moment deny. I tried to explain to her coworker's husband that I never called anyone a liar, and simply put the words my wife is twisting around back into context, that I have a lot of respect and appreciation for coworker and her husband for being so willing to take care of and provide for my family. He actually knocked my sunglasses off my face and drew back like he was going to hit me and started on the whole calling his wife a liar again thing. Ultimately not getting a rise out of me he told me to leave. I guess that means I'm no longer welcome there, and considering the threats of violence I'm absolutely uncomfortable dropping off my kids there, let alone having my son stay in that kind of environment on a daily basis.

Later Sunday night, wifes coworker calls me on the phone, very apologetic for what happened, and she and I talk and 'smooth things out' between the two of us, that she didn't have a problem with me. Still however, it's been made clear by her husband and son that I am not welcome there, and I still feel very uncomfortable about the whole situation. WW got on the phone and asks about our sons eye, I explain the situation and told her had she actually been there to receive our kids, that I would have told her at the time. Then starts making threats to remove my son from daycare because she doesn't feel 'safe' about me being able to pick him up if I'm going to be seeking custody. Like I wouldn't drop him off when I said I would, or that I'd try to completely take him from her. I explained to her that I wasn't the one who left with the kids and took them somewhere I refused to give my spouse the address to, that I wasn't the one who ran from state to state with my kid after leaving my first husband. If anyone should be concerned about things like that it's me.. and obviously with this newest threat I'm absolutely concerned. I actually dropped them off when and where I said I would, 15 minutes early even. She kept going on and on about how she'll never let me 'take him away' from her, and went on and on. I tried to get her to see the point simply that I am better able to provide stability, security, and a home and a bed of his own than she is, or will be for the conceivable future. I'm only doing this out of concern for our son and the knowledge that I can provide his week to week, day to day needs better than she can. She assured me that against my wishes she wouldn't be sending our son to daycare where he is currently enrolled anymore. I'm calling my lawyer this morning to discuss what I need to do about the present situation, if there's anything I can do to protect my son from being yanked first from his home to the place where she's staying, and now being yanked out of his pre pre-school education and care of people that WW and I both know and trust and are comfortable with.

Wow, you need to get your kids out of there and possibly get a restraining order to keep them away. You don't need to be nice to these people, they are sick and twisted. In fact, I might urge you to expose their behavior to those that would be in a position to act like human beings, including the law firm. I might press charges for assault against this guy. You need to start standing up to these people. Make sure your lawyer is a bulldog, and fight these pieces of garbage.

Also, expose this stuff to WW's family about OM dropping your kids off to daycare and giving them baths, and about OM's father assaulting you. If OM's mother is just a paralegal and the only one of the family that works there, expose her behavior to the law firm as well. Do they go to church? Expose them to their congregation. These people are just sick.

I think that child protective services need to be involved as well. Your primary goal should be protecting your children. Recovering your marriage is secondary at this point.

J., I'm with Jim on this. This hothead's behavior cannot be ignored and smoothed over with a phone call. Your kids are living with the Addams family with an unhinged Grandpapa!

Please get a bulldog atty. on this and file assault charges, the courts won't let your kids stay in a home with an abuser. You are a rank stranger and he's wanting to duke it out with you? You wanna wonder what goes on behind closed doors?

Now, this 25 yr old kid is having your WW lay down the law to you....you know it's coming from the "family" conference that ensued after you left.

They are trying to keep you from your kids, straight up, deal with them, swiftly and legally. Start the ball rolling today, for your own peace of mind.

I agree with jmwc95.
It seems like from your previous posts, that you are allowing these people to treat you like a doormat, and now they have finally crossed the line, legally.

For the safety of your children, you need to get full custody of your kids, even if its just temporary pending a real hearing. Talk to your lawyer and see what he thinks about a strange man touching your children in the bath with or without the mother present. Try and get child protective services involved. Also, definitely inform the police about the assault and abuse you received from the OM's father. It sounds like your wife is building a perfect case to grant you full custody, if only you would act on it.

It looks like you are simply equivocating here and you need to get off the fence. You have no reason to "respect" any of these people. Even the OM's mother, she is enabling this affair and is condoning the treatment of your children!

Get the full weight of the law involved and bring it crashing down on their heads. If your lawyer isn't aggressive enough, get another asap. You are allowing yourself to be steamrolled, and in the meantime you have another man doing god knows what to your kids.

Lawyer is in court this morning..

I'll let everyone know how this goes by this afternoon I'm sure.

I'm definitely going to use whatever I can to help strengthen my case to get my son. I know I can provide for his daily needs in a much much better way than she can, the affair aside. With it in the picture the answer to that question is absolute.

I'm not riding the fence when it comes to my son.. I'm simply seeking the advice of my lawyer before taking any steps like CPS or filing assault charges.

Jamesus,

What reason do you have to believe that your wife is a good investment or that this is abberrantbehavior from her?

What were the circumstances surrounding her previous divorce?

The circumstances surrounding her previous divorce are almost frighteningly similar to what is happening now. That's one of the reasons I'm so scared she's going to rabbit with my son. The exception is that she claimed that husband 1 was physically abusive, something he of course denies, and his parents never saw it, and they were living with his parents initially when they got married.

Selfishness is nothing new with my wife.. the inability to admit or even see where she is in the wrong is also there. Things that have to be worked on if we are to reconcile, but to this extreme is very out of character for her. She's always put her kids first in her life before now. I was part of that.. she found in me a guy who could be a wonderful father for her daughter, and would be a good man to raise our son with. I received a lot of joy and blessings from being a provider for my family. And while I acknowledge my shortcomings in providing for her emotional needs as I should have.. it's a two way street, and one we have to get back onto should things work.

At this point though, reconciliation is a distant second concern to me. My son's safety and well being are paramount.. second to that is the safety and well being of my stepdaughter. There's little I can do beyond keeping her grandparents and father updated on the situation, but I'm hoping that by doing so, they will also seek to help my little angel out of this situation where I cannot.

Brace yourself you aren't going to like this.

It is my opinion that your best option is to leave this marriage and focus on being a parent to your son.

I'm very, very [very] sorry to say that I think you used very poor judgement when you married this woman and that I don't support taking a wrong decision and trying to "make" it be a right one.

I don't know the details with regard to how you came to be ensnared in this situation but I would strongly suggest that you take steps to avoid such ensnarements in the future.

Are you a christian?

I was raised baptist, went to a baptist school for elementary. Have a very strong foundation in Christianity, but have gotten away from being one of the folks that shows up every Sunday and prefer to have my own profound and personal relationship with God.

I started going to Catholic Mass with my wife when we first got together and was honestly excited about taking part in a congregation again. Sadly though we've even slipped away from doing that lately.

I understand completely the viewpoint that this isn't a 'fair' relationship.. but the truth is, deep down I love her without condition or restraint. Even now when I've been betrayed and hurt so deeply, I love her with every fiber of my being. The person she is right now is not the woman I married. She's a wounded animal gnawing at her own leg to save the rest of her emotional body. I understand a lot of that after having read Dr. H's basic emotional needs etc.

I was very happy in our marriage.. and while I physically carried a lot of the water, I received fulfilment in knowing that I provided for those I loved, and that in turn they recognized that love and felt the same way. I can't allow myself to completely give up hope that the wonderful marriage we had at first can't be restored or even made better. We've been through a lot in our three years, things that most couples take many more years to have to go through.. and each time until now she and I pulled together during those times and emerged stronger for it. If there is a chance for that here, I have to leave the door open.

I do know that it would be a long hard road, and she's going to have to want to walk it first... right now though I am focused on what I can worry about, and that is my son. If she follows him home, great.. we can get to work on our marriage then. If she doesn't, I will at least be able to be at peace knowing that my son is safe, loved, and provided for.

Well, I certainly understand that my viewpoint is inflexable.

I do not believe that an adulterous marriage [and yours would qualify here unles she left her H for adultery] can be healthy and I do believe that leaving the relationship is a first step in repenting of the choice to have an adulterous relationship.

I assume that the two of you were also physically intimate prior to marriage.

In my opinion this creates affair dynamics within the dating relationship as well and as much as I hate to be so unsupportive I have to conclude that you have about as much chance of ever having a godly faithfull and mature relationship with this woman as she has with her current OM..in fact from my position YOU are an OM as well because she was not released from her covenant relationship with her first husband when she began dating and sleeping with you.

This seems to be her pattern and I have no reason to expect her to deviate from it most especially considerng that she carried it out in full previously.

You say that you love her without condition or restraint...you don't care about the consequences or whether it is right or wrong.

I guess that's supposed to be romantic. Sounds more like an affair to me.


So you probably won't be interested in talking with me very much and I will respect that.

Actually I really appreciate your viewpoint.

I didn't come her just to find people who agreed with me and would just help me get to whatever I 'want'. That wouldn't make this site a very good one for people who are going through these things.

She had been separated from her ex husband for about a year when we met. Had been divorced for about half of that time. We did get physical fairly quickly in our relationship, but I can say pretty confidently that it wasn't an affair mentality... I will think on this more though.

We were very careful introducing eachother to our children, and while she got pregnant very early on in our relationship we decided to wait to get married until after the child was born, and we'd had some time to sort out ourselves, and make sure we were marrying for the right reasons. We went through almost a year of pre-marital counceling through the local parish, and felt at the end of it that not only were we doing it for the right reasons, but that we were the right fit for ourselves and eachother.

She wanted the Catholic wedding because she was absolutely convinced by the end of our counceling that this would be the forever marriage.. of course nobody gets married expecting to divorce.. and that's simply the reality of it all.

As I've said though... reconciliation is a goal.. but right now it's a distant secondary concern to knowing my son is safe and his needs are being attended to by a parent, not a stranger.

This is probably the best attitude you can have right now. Focus on getting your son out of the situation your WW has placed him in. Go for full custody, no holds barred. Take the gloves off.
Your reconciliation must be placed on the back burner and this custody issue could actually be the event that breaks through her fog. When it is no longer just your opinion, but the opinion of the courts, that she has placed her children in jeopardy, maybe she will finally have an ephiphany.
Keep recording and reporting everything to your lawyer and let slip the dogs of war!

Hope to hear some good news later today!

Well I appreciate your appreciation [lol].

I'll continue to give you my .02 as long as I am welcome on your thread. I won't take offense when you don't agree with me.

Here is an expansion.

After much consideration I have come to the conclusion that many people here [myself included] found ourselves in this position primarily because we have tolerated or nurtured disobediance in our lives.

I became aware that merely mouthing the words "bad decision" in no way expressed the gravity and permanence to the consequences I was setting in motion with my BAD DECISIONS.

It was such an alien concept to me that when God said you should not ...that it actually meant you should NOT. It would bring hardship and loss into your life to do so. Hardship you couldn't reason with or talk your way out of any more than you can reason with gravity if you step off a cliff. Even if you change your mind...even if you didn't mean it...even if you were ignorant at the tme..the ground is hurtling towards you at [seemingly] a rate of mach 1 and the collision isn't pretty.

I think I have been slapped in the face enough times now to concede that God is not subject to my approval in judging what is right and what is wrong.

I can choose to obey or not.

I can not choose the consequences.

OK..I struggle with it but I believe it now. I see the connections between by disobediance and my losses. They seem pretty obvious now that my emotions are out of the way.

So as I see it in your situation...you were already living out of obediance and accordance with God's will as expressed in scripture.

It's not a big suprise that when you are living in your flesh you make decisions with that same equipment.

One of those decisions was to first engage in fornication and then marry a woman whom you could not have a "blessed" union with.

That was your choice, your decision. The really suprising thing though is that there is always this desire to try and reconcile with God under your terms isn't there?

To ask for the fruit that is promised to people when they chose differently. To say...OK I defied you on this issue but can't I have the goods anyway?

Well in my experience, study, and observation the answer is a resounding "no".

Can I fail to discipline my children and expect them to grow into mature adults? No.

Can I marry in defiance and poor judgement and expect that marriage to be fruitfull and lasting? I say likewise no.

I think these consequences are designed to expose folly as folly in the hopes that you will turn from it.

What I see you saying is..."I hate the consequences of my choices but am not willing to turn from them or judge them as wrong".

Unfortunately I don't expect a good result for you from that position.

Noodle,

I don't know if you were insinuating that James's marriage was an affair marriage, but it was not.

James,

I think that your WW is mentally or psychologically ill and that any attempt at reconciliation should only be done AFTER your WW has started treatment for her illness. Otherwise, she'll just do this again. I agree that your primary goal should be to protect your children from your WW and OM's family. Your WW is truly NUTS. If it doesn't work out, please use better judgement next time when choosing a mate.

Jim,

I'm insinuating nothing.

My belief is that it's likely that his marriage would be considered adulterous whether he was an active OM in the relationship or not, it was certainly immoral and made in poor judgement.

If that is the case I believe the best course of action for him is to let go of what was never going to be healthy and not fall into the same pattern next time.
He is free to disagree or even ask me to stop posting to him.

I am talking about the relationship between cause and effect.

And realistic expectations.

What? You mean marrying this crack addict with tripple digit debts and five children and several violent ex boyfriends isn't going to lead to the picket fence i idealise? How can that possibly be?

Okay, noodle, I understand what you are saying. I agree 100% that it was a piss-poor decision getting involved with this woman, but I don't know if it was immoral. I would be inclined to tell him to run, but being the forgiving person that I am, I might wait to see if any psychological treatment as well as recommitment to the church has any affect on his WW before I completely wrote her off. I understand that it probably won't, but I wouldn't blame him for trying. However, priority #1 is protecting his children from this Jerry Springer-like OM and family.

James,
I would pay attention to what Noodle is saying to you.
Your M began, based on your because your wife got pregnant. Also, her first marriage did not end in a way that would allow her to re-marry according to Scripture. Obviously, not everyone holds the same beliefs...but her points deserve consideration.
I personally know of more than a few marriages that began as yours did...albeit without the baggage that she brought into the relationship...that have thrived for years on end.
I think the real issue here is that your wife is just not a good person. I have walked in your shoes and have felt that same love for an abusive partner...my advice...run far and fast. Love does not demonstrate the types of behaviors that your wife has shown. No matter your feelings for this woman now...if you get yourself out of the mess that is your marriage, you will one day very soon look back and mark with great glee your decision to leave her behind. She is a cancer. Focus on your children and nothing more...except for your relationship with God.
I am confused as to why you allowed your son back there again.
Can you let me know how your calls to CPS went?

MEDC

Noodle and MEDC,

I think that you guys are starting to sway me. I usually am a bit idealistic and think that almost every marriage can be saved, but I think you are right. This woman is no good. I also missed the part about why they got married. I guess I was too consumed with the Jerry Springer like drama. I think that you should move on and it would take a miracle turnaround before I would let this woman back into my life. They will tell you, I hate writing off marriages, but I am skeptical that your WW can be saved from herself. I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation.

LOL!!!! It is hard to believe that the picket fence can't be made out of termite infested wood and expected to make it, isn't it.

I agree with noodle on one thing. This marriage was an adulterous marriage no matter what. Even with the previous divorce, it was still adulterous and had little hope of making it. Not that I feel it is impossible, with God all things are possible. But even now she is still committing adultery on her first husband and now you. The list seems neverending. I give you many kudos for wanting to salvage this train wreck if possible.

I agree with Jim that any reconciliation would have to be on the wings of some very intense counceling for your WW. Protect your son and then go from there. You have a very good plan in place.

Just remember that most of us on here have committed the sins of fornication and/or adultery. One is no better than the next. The difference is the level of wisdom that we have each taken away from these experiences. Just remember that it isn't how far you fall in your life, its how you get back up. My prayers are with you and your family.

I do understand what you guys are saying.

Honestly I had thoughts of marriage with her even before our son was born. Of course I had my doubts and concerns and many long conversations with myself over why exactly I wanted to marry this woman. The truth of the matter is that when in a state of romantic love, we compliment eachother beyond perfectly. But we're also both habit driven creatures and have allowed some of those habits to drive a wedge between us. Communication used to be our strongest asset, and now it's our greatest weakness. I know that we can get back to good again, of that I have no doubts. I know that this can be a fulfilling marriage for us both. The problem is that both of us have to want it. She doesn't.. she claims that she's already gone through the grieving, the anger, and the sadness, and is past it now (more fog I'm sure). But I have absolute faith that should she truly wish to reconcile.. if we get counceling and use the MB principles, we can make this marriage better than ever. Even the husband and wife she is staying with have recovered their marriage and both say it is better having had to fight for it..

Still, even the possibility that she will -want- to do what is required to reconcile is remote at best, and I've come to a point where I accept that and know that so long as I have my children, I'll be just fine unmarried. I know I am capable of moving forward with my life without her. Is it so wrong to want the apple tree and all of the responsibilities of caring and nurturing its growth along with the reward of having the apples too?

Forbidden fruit results in many a bad jam.

lol

That hung on my dinig room wall for decades...can't believe how long it took me to figure it out.

J, you said: Is it so wrong to want the apple tree and all of the responsibilities of caring and nurturing its growth along with the reward of having the apples too?


Well that's kind of a deceitfull phrase...maybe even self deceiving.

Well J...as a matter of fact it IS wrong to want the tree if the tree isn't available for the wanting.

The tree in your case had a husband she wasn't really clear of and a very foggy and immature/unrealistic way of perceiving the world which made her not really READY and not HEALTHY ENOUGH to be anyones wife.

Yes, it IS a bad decision to take someone in that position and try to make a life with them. You can't nurture or rescue them from that. Trying to necessarily results in a parent/child relationship which ultimately results in rebellion.

So is what you're saying basically that it's hopeless to marry anyone who has been previously divorced?

I'm saying that in my belief when you willfully engage in an adulterous marriage you are making poor choices that are deliberately defiant of gods expressed will.

I'm saying that when you engage in sex with a woman who is not your wife you become vulnerable to emotional attachments and circumstances [pregnancy for example?]that cloud your judgement and skew your perception.

From a distance it is very obvious that there were numerous unanswered questions and unresolved issues going IN to this marriage. It is therefore not suprising that it failed extravagantly and quickly.

You are asking this marriage to support way beyond the reality of it's structural capacity.

This marriage is VERY affairlike in it's design.

It is built on feelings, not principles..in fact the principles condemn it.

I am saying that in my opinion you would be wiser to change course and repent than to insist on having your way here and continue to pursue this obviously bad decision.

I would advise focussing on custody and personal growth.

OK...I missed something here.

How is Jamesus's marriage an "adulterous one"? I tried scanning quickly back through his posts and missed whatever it was that triggered this conlcusion.

Custody and personal growth are what I'm focusing on. I feel like I'm just at the beginnings of Plan A with trying to work on busting up this affair. If the conversations this week are any indication of the walls in her fantasy world starting to crumble, I'm not going to give up hope just yet.

I understand the very complete Christian viewpoint you espouse here, and the concept of no sex before marriage.. actually we stopped having sex for about 8 months while we went through the pre-marriage counciling.. it was difficult but we decided that it was very much worth denying ourselves so that we can focus on eachother.

I think where we disagree is whether or not sex before marriage is acceptable. I'm not liable to change my viewpoint on that so we may have to agree to disagree.

I do however take issue that this was built on feelings rather than principle. That's actually one of the things I have the most problems with in the whole affair.. is that the relationship and love that ensued was founded on the fact that we were both already parents and didn't have time for the bullpucky mindgames and things that go along with immature relationships.. we had too much at stake, ourselves and our kids to spend time in a relationship that was not completely faithful and honest. Principles that she doesn't seem to care about right now, but that used to be central to her beliefs.

Like I said... the person I'm describing to you is not my W... she is my WW... she -is- posessed by the devil right now.. and until the time the devil's illusion wears off she is lost to me. I have accepted that. I can only be the light in the darkness.. home.. and she can choose to come to it, or shun it. But the light is burning brightly for her, but even more importantly, it burns brightly for our son.. my stepdaughter, and my daughter. It's been hard to keep it bright amidst the emotional turmoil I've been going through.. but my strength has always been them.

Sorry james...but it is yur wife. Possession by the devil is not the issue here and really that is just a way to make her behavior more acceptable. Think about it for a minute...
she did this before to someone else. She then absconded with his child and went somewhare no one could find her. Good people do not do that. Was she possessed then too? Then the devil left...and came back again.
Sorry, it just adds up that this is a woman devoid of character and class....and her behaviors have been consistent over the years.

I think this thread is off the rails if we're coming down on someone's marriage because he and his wife had sex beforehand. I said IF. I know there were other circumstances... the woman was not clear of her first marriage.

The situation is at least ambiguous, but in any case this woman was too close to the end of her previous relationship and probably did not have her head screwed on right when this marriage began.

Jamesus wrote this:

she claims that she's already gone through the grieving, the anger, and the sadness, and is past it now (more fog I'm sure).

You've got that right. But I think it's more than just "fog". She's never "gone through" anything all the way without moving on to something else first, sounds like.

I think this is a very common behavior, bouncing from one relationship to another without grieving the end of any of them. In my opinion relationships with people who conduct themselves this way do not have much chance of holding together.

My completely unprofessional and under-informed analysis:

This woman is unhappy. When she feels this way she finds someone to fall in love with and her unhappiness is temporarily overshadowed by in-love feelings.

The in-love feelings go away when the relationship settles in, the unhappiness bubbles up, the current partner gets blamed for it, and it's on to the next victim.

Kind of vampire-like.

Even the husband and wife she is staying with have recovered their marriage and both say it is better having had to fight for it..

Why are you are having conversations with these people? They're hosting an affair in their house, threatening you, assaulting you, ... sheesh!

Jamesus, it sounds like you need to turn up the gain on your radar that detects when people are stepping on you. I don't think it's sensitive enough.

GC

J, I believe the definition of an adulterous marriage is one in which your wife ran off from her H without a Biblical
reason, eg adultery, abuse. Because she didn't have Biblical recourse, she continues to commit adultery, and she causes you the same since her union with you can't be blessed. Sex before marriage is frowned upon in the Bible
and considered immoral and sinful, and I don't know where,but the scripture says that if you have sex with a woman, you must marry her.

I will expect corrections if any of this is incorrect, lest I carry an untrue message.

I am in my second marriage, as is my H. Our x-spouses were both abusive and committed adultery. It was OK to divorce on those grounds, and our present marriage would be blessed in the eyes of God.

Well.. the situation just became a little more twisted.

Still have not heard from my lawyer.. and she has withdrawn my son from daycare today..

Call the Finest.

And if your lawyer doesn't raise the roof, fire him.

Fight Fight Fight.

GC

James...as we disussed the other day...protect your child.
I have asked this question several times since our phone conversation...
Have you contacted child services?
Why did you give the child back on Sunday?

It seems to me that while you are not creating the drama in this mess...that you are enabling it by some questionable decision making.

I didn't know legally where I stood to be able to make the decision to keep my son after last night.. I've been trying to get ahold of my lawyer all day, but apparently he doesn't check his messages until after 3... I've got the name of another lawyer in town that I know will fight this battle..

DID YOU CALL CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES?????????????

IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LEGALITIES OF GIVING YOUR SON BACK...THEN ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION AND KEEP HIM WITH YOU.

I don't know.

A couple of more days of denying him visitation and hiding his children from him will just about solidify his case for Parental Alienation.

Looking at the big picture....why win a battle when you can win the war. Protective services should be called if YOUR attorney thinks they should. A ill-advised call to them will make YOU look bad in court too. Courts don't care about adultery that much (depending on the judge) they care only about the kids best interest. Like I said, her actions this week are very much against her legal interests. Pre-empt them to fast and she just may get counsel and correct them before it's too late for her.

MDEC is right. But the court might not agree...UNFORTUNATELY.

Be smart and calculated.

Mr. W

Be smart and calculated....

I'm trying Mr. W... I got to talk to my lawyer last night on the phone.

He says to hang tight until we get a judge. I asked if I should file charges against the friend from work's husband and he said that I'd be testifying to it in court anyway and it'd still come down to my word against his. He believes that pressing the issue there would just make things litigious and may reflect poorly on me.

I have yet to call child protective services, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with leaving my son in the care of my WW's OM and/or the man who threatened me.

WW told me on the phone last night that she did not withdraw my son from daycare, and would be dropping him off there on the days I'm supposed to have him, and then coming to pick him up. Stepdaughter is no longer going to be joining my son on visitation. The odd thing is that when I called the daycare yesterday they told me that she had called and told them that he would no longer be coming... they have documented that for me and I'll be going to pick that up tomorrow.

I feel like my whole world is slipping away.. I'm trying to do things the right way, not limit my chances of getting my son at the end of this... she's got an entire law office around her to help her and dispite reading the guidelines from the state website and how this is supposed to progress through the courts, I still feel like I'm in the passenger seat of a car with no driver hurtling 80MPH down the freeway..

Todays journal update:

09/11/2007: Spoke with son on the phone last night, he seems well. Says he played with his cars in the living room of Coworker’s house with ‘daddy’ OM all day. It breaks my heart that my children are so confused, but I can’t really fault them for it, I’m sure it’s a very confusing situation for my son to no longer have his home, his own room, or even being able to comprehend that there is suddenly a man in mommy’s life that isn’t Dad. WW said on the phone tonight that she had a long talk with Stepdaughter and has decided that Stepdaughter is very angry with me for wanting custody of my son, and doesn’t want to come see me or talk to me on the phone. It tears me up inside that she’s using the children now as weapons to try and hurt me or goad me into anger and saying something I’ll regret. I’ve been the only father Stepdaughter has known for the last 3 years, she loves me and thinks of me as her dad, I shudder at the thought of her going through the pain of feeling abandoned by another father figure in her life. I wish there was something I could do to help Stepdaughter as well, but I have no legal rights to her.

Spoke with my lawyer last evening after work, and he advised me that it was up to me if I wanted to file charges against coworker's husband, but it would be moot as I would be speaking to that effect in court anyway. As such will hold off on contacting the police or CPS with my concerns.

your attorney's advice is wrong IMO...sorry for being so forward about that. I am going to have to bow out of this situation Jamesus since I do not understand how you are able to sit back and only watch as your son is removed from his home and put in a bad situation. I am just baffled at your lack of effort right now.
NO ONE... and I mean NO ONE would ever take my son from my home without a fight from me.
I think you need to ask yourself why you have been so passive when it comes to your child's welfare.
I will take leave of this now and wish you the best.

Lack of effort? I want to do anything I can to get my son out of that situation. But what legal basis do I have for keeping him from her?

First of all, your WW lied about how your stepdaughter was feeling. Got that? I'm sure she told stepdaughter about how you don't want to see her anymore.

Secondly, it is time for a different lawyer with a more bulldog attitude. Your lawyer is too passive. Find someone who is going to go to battle for you. The longer you wait, the worse your chances are.

JAMES....the same legal basis she has to keep him from you. Has a judge said your son should be with her????

Legal basis....you are HIS FATHER.

No.. but it's in the divorce filing that he lives with her. Doesn't that make it set at least until we get orders from a judge that he stays with her?

I don't know james...does it??? It would seem to me that a filing is an undecided issue that has not yet been settled.
I would also think that your lawyer should have already answered all this for you....did you express to the attorney that you are concerned about your child????
If so, what did he suggest that you do to IMMEDIATELY protect your son?
I thought you made it clear to the attorney that you wanted to go for custody.

Well.. got a call from the daycare.. she took him to daycare this morning, saying she changed her mind about withdrawing him.

That makes me feel a little safer at least.

Not sure what that does to my case against her.. that was my biggest reason for wanting him out of there... I can still show that in previous weeks she didn't send him but I'm not sure that's going to matter to a judge.

I'm in the process of finding another attorney, I feel like his hesitation now has cost me one of my biggest legs up in this case..

If anyone has additional information on how fathers -can- win custody.

Or any instances I can look at where a father took his son back like many are suggesting.. and it worked out well in their favor.. how they pulled it off. I'd really like to see it.

My hesitation and fear at this point is driven by the fact that I can show that I've been operating within the rules, and she hasn't. I'm afraid that if I just don't let my son go back to her, that I'm going to look like the irrational one.

Please help.. I still feel like I'm drowning.

Jamesus...I don't know why this stuff isn't sinking in for you. I have said NUMEROUS times that you need to hire an agressive lawyer that specializes in fathers rights. I passed on a link to you and also discussed this with you on the phone. That is the best way you can handle this.
The OTHER thing you can do is stop being afraid and FIGHT! So far all I have seen in someone willing to accept his fate. FIGHT.
If you are not willing to take these steps...all the advice in the world isn't going to help you.

So you have a perfect score and she doesn't.

You ought to take steps to document your concern that she may hightail it.

You ought to REFUSE to allow your children into a house where a man you do not trust is bathing your children. That's insane. I don't care how civilized and well-adjusted these people pretend to be. Another man is messing around with your wife and having extremely close contact with your children. You can refuse, right now, to allow this. Would you drop your child off at some random stranger's house and ask whoever answered the door to take care of your son? Of course not! So why should you agree to let OM do it? Your wife may approve of him, but as an equal parent you have veto power here, I'm almost sure of it.

How are you justified in this?

This man is completely untrustworthy as far as you're concerned.

Other people who live in the house have threatened and assaulted you physically.

Game over.

GC

I think things are starting to change... in subtle ways. Please folks, don't give up on me just yet.

WW and I have in the last few days gotten back to a state of Conflict. Same sort of thing you read about in the 'how can one person save a marriage'..

She's doing everything she can to play down the 'affair'.. still maintains that things were 'over' with us before she and he got together.. I still feel that this is a smokescreen, but at the same time I can also see where she might actually believe this to be how things happened. If so, I think it might make forgiveness of this relationship, should she choose to end it at least a little easier. Still, I know in my heart what it is.. what the bible says about it.. and eventually we will have to deal with that issue.

When she came to pick up our son (no longer dropping them off at the place where she is staying), we talked briefly. I asked her again to stop the divorce, and take a chance on making our marriage happy again, making our family whole again. She said at one point 'If I did come back, the only reason would be for that boy.. how would that make you feel?' I told her that it would be a great step forward in doing what is in our children's best interest. If it would give me the chance to show her the changes I've made in myself that it would be worth every moment at least to try.

She decided at that point that she needed to leave, and I could see something soften in the hard looks she's been giving me..

I'm not going to stop the legal battle for my son. She's at least starting to think in terms of what is best for them.. but I feel there may be new hope for saving my marriage, and my family.

As long as there is contact with OM and his family, your situation will not improve. You need to be less passive and more agressive in your defense of your family.

"It was already over between you." I would have said, "baloney, you were celebrating our anniversary with me a month ago and then two weeks later you were moved in with OM. Don't insult my intelligence. And, you don't have to have sex for it to be an affair."

I've made that point in past conversations.. it causes her to throw up the wall so I skipped it last night.

Instead I said.. No, I don't believe this story, but I have been praying for forgiveness and understanding. It hasn't come yet but I'm trying.

If I can somehow get her home with the kids, it will solve the immediate problem of getting our children out of this terrible situation, and provide me with the opportunity to try and start rebuilding our marriage, and be a good father to my kids at the same time...

Here is the email I sent to her this morning:


WW..

Last night when we talked.. you said 'If I were to come back to you, the only reason would be our son. How would you feel about that'.

I told you that it would be a huge step in the right direction for doing what is best for our kids. If it would afford me the opportunity to show you that I can change the things I was doing that hurt our marriage, show you what kind of husband I can be, and what kind of father.. it's worth the risk.

Let's set a time for you and I to get together and talk face to face about this possibility. We can talk about what your expectations would be, and what mine would be, and see if we can come to an agreement that will allow us both to give our family the opportunity to survive.

I'm not asking for you to come home and suddenly flip a switch and things be ok. I'm going into this with the understanding that right now you are very angry with me, and are not feeling the love I know in your heart exists for this family. I will hold no expectations from you, other than you open your heart to see that I have recognized many of the things I was doing that made you feel neglected in our marriage. I am willing to do all I can to make changes to show you each day how much I love, adore, and appreciate everything you bring to our marriage and our family. I'm not expecting you to let me in all at once, if necessary I'll sleep on the couch and let you have the bedroom at night until you are ready to let me hold you.. I will do my best to let the past be in the past and move forward with the knowledge learned from our mistakes and pray for the strength not to make them again.. and pray for your understanding that if I do slip, I need you to tell me that something I do is hurting you, and help me find my way back to the things I do right for you.

I'll only need your help to understand what it is that you need in a relationship that I haven't been giving.. the kinds of things we talked about early on that apparently I've forgotten.. or the things I used to do that made you happy, and made you want to spend the rest of our lives together.. things I don't do now that I need to start doing again.. and keep doing for the rest of our lives. I don't want to be responsible for your unhappiness.. seeing you smile, and making you laugh, doing everything I can do to make my wife and my children happy, is one of the greatest joys in my life. I really want to be able to recover the love that once bound our hearts together, the love that God blessed us with for eachother and manifested in our precious son.. the love that opened my heart to the wonderful blessing of a daughter that I had the opportunity to help raise and turn into a wonderful young woman.

Our family is worth the effort.. it's worth the risk.. Our kids need their home, their rooms, the stability that only you and I together can provide. If there's even the slightest chance for us to come out the other side of this happy with ourselves, eachother, and our children.. knowing that we at least tried to do the best we can do.. it will be worth every effort.

Please know that I love you, I love our children, I love our family.. and am committed to honoring the promises I made to you at the beginning, the promises we made before God and our families and friends, and the promises we've made to our children that they would always have us.. that noone would ever walk out of their lives.. please WW at least let us discuss the possibilities.. it's worth this, and so much more.

All of my love, for all time.
J

You should include in here the expectations that she will TRY to do the right things...marriage counseling with the H's as one of them. She WILL maintain NC with OM during that time as well.

If you bring her back without these safegaurds in place before she comes, you're just setting up the situation for further failure.

You needed to include that she find another job and have NC w/ OM for life, otherwise, you are just going to have her cake-eat forever.

Would that not be making demands?

I thought plan A was supposed to be providing and giving without expectation of a return.

Is asking her to change jobs truly necessary? It's not the OM that works there but the OM's mother. I've thought about how that would keep the withdrawl going longer but if she can get past it.. I do intend to push for NC, in order to give this a fair shake.

My real question is.. do you think with the statement she made, she's letting a crack in the door to coming back? Or do you think it's more or less something to throw me off.

Its not making demands. Its setting boundaries.

If you allow her to come back and remain in contact with OM in any fashion, she'll do just what Jim said...she'll cake eat. We've seen NUMEROUS posters here make the mistake of allowing a continuing to be wayward spouse to return. It very often ends up failing. Far more often than not, from what I've seen.

Do we think she's serious about returning? Who knows? But in order for your marriage to be given a chance to recover, you HAVE to set your expectations now...because if you try to implement them AFTER she comes back, its worse.

I've seen the offer of a 'trial period of NC' work in a few cases. Where you get her agreemant to go NC with OM for a set period of time...but make that period of time long enough to ensure that your wife goes through withdrawl from the loss of that relationship. There was a poster here named Sysyphus who used that tactic to save his marriage.

But you have to have your ground rules in place BEFORE you allow her back in.

I wouldn't be surprised if she says "No, I won't move back if you're going to require that of me." Don't let that sway your boundaries. Its a common tactic.

Explain to her that you're ok with her coming back and trying, even if its only "just for our son". But, she has to make an HONEST attempt. And an honest attempt means that she's agreed to TRY. That means all those boundaries that Jim and I mentioned. Tell her that you're not going to expect her to get feelings back for you overnight. But you KNOW that she will never do so if she does remain in contact with OM in ANY FASHION. So to make it a 'real' attempt on her part, that has to happen...NC must be in place with OM BEFORE she moves back in!

James, against my own words, I will post here again.
Your wife is throwing up smoke screens.
If she returns....great.
In the meantime....where did your child sleep last night?? Tonight??? Tomorrow????
If your answer tot hat question is not at home in his bed...you are failing at your first job as a dad...protect your children at all costs.
Anything else at this point doesn't mean a hill of beans.

Wise words Owl.. and I will be absolutely sure to put them forward.

You're right about the NC.. it's something I'll need to have otherwise I'll go nuts and we'll end up right back where this mess started.

MKEDC: If I can get her to want to come back and do this on her terms, don't the kids, her, and I all start winning again instead of losing everything we hold dear? Shouldn't I at least try the honey approach before beating with sticks?

NO.. Your HONEY approach has your child living some where he should never be. So, no. Your problem has been appeasing her too much...and every single night your child is in that house is a danger to him and your family. Your child deserves for you to put up the fight of your life to get him home...not to bargain with a woman that has shown an ability to hurt him.

If you give a WS an inch, they will take a mile. Appeasement never works with a WS. It only fuels their entitlement. Yes, you need your children sleeping at home with you, but it is better to acheive that with a court order and clear boundaries than to appease your WW and allow her to continue her affair because eventually, she will go back to OM again.

Never never never never never use the word "PLEASE" or any of its synonyms when communicating with your WW.

And don't expect a letter to have much impact. She might just read the first few words of each paragraph and the rest will just look like BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

GC

I hear what you're saying GC.. and you are right. I will be more mindful of the pleases in the future.

I do believe though that she is reading them. If nothing else out of a curiosity to see where my head is at.

I simply hope, and have been praying that these words do touch her heart, and that God moves within her to help her see through the fog that our marriage is worth saving.

http://www.fathersrights.org

It's already Thursday for Pete's sake! Have you filed for temporary custody yet? I'm with MEDC on this one! Get your son home, then work on the marriage!

Just remember to protect your status as the faithful partner, the protector of your family, and the One Who Did Not Cheat.

I'm not suggesting you adopt a cocky or superior attitude, but the bottom line is she should be *begging* you to take her back and forgive her.

Proponents of plan A often fail to distinguish between BH/WW dynamics and BW/WH dynamics, and the two are very different.

You're the prize in this contest, buddy. Don't forget it.

GC

I have an appointment with my lawyer on Monday to go over Temporary custody and do it the right way.

GC.. you indicate that I need to take a different approach.. any suggestions on what that approach needs to be?

GC this seems like a really critical point. Can you elaborate, please?

I'm curious about those dynamics as well.. I've read the 'What to do with a WW' column, but I didn't know that the strategy was different for Plan A..

I'm seriously considering a 180 at this point, focusing entirely on my son.. now that I have laid out the welcome mat and tried to be as compassionate and understanding as I could throughout the first month.. suggestions?

Wellllll, let's see if I can articulate this. It could be controversial.

And nothing is universal.

In relationships women tend to have more trouble with divided loyalties than men do. When a woman cheats she's more likely to check out completely from her marriage and place her loyalty with her affair partner.

This makes reconciliation almost inconceivable to her, and she might have a hard time understanding why her husband would even want her back. It's the old "so much has happened" gambit.

For a guy who's been a decent partner I don't advocate a "plan A" type effort if you have a WW like this. At least not for long. By trying to negotiate with her logically and trying to dream up ways of meeting her needs you just constantly hit your head on the ceiling and make yourself less and less appealing.

I think it's better to push her away and treat her like any woman you might be after. Do things to make yourself attractive and to correct whatever bad relationship habits you might have, but don't present any of it to her as if you're doing it to make her come back. Do things that give you *status* - like having a good lawyer and standing up to her and her cohort when they're trying to step on you.

Always remember, you're willing to take her back, but she's no prize. You're offering her a very generous gift - you're willing to let her sorry butt back into your life.

I believe any cuckolded man ought to practice this attitude.

'Cause you know what? There ARE better women. It's facile and not comforting at all but it's true. There are better women than your WW--millions of them--and you can have them if you want.

GC

You know GC.. you're probably right on target here.

Do you agree that now that I've made the 'generous offer' that I could 180 and more or less focus on the 'me' part of Plan A?

Ok.. a weekend of 180 so far, and honestly I'm finding myself turning a little emotionally cold. I guess it's helping me cope with the loss of the marriage, and letting me focus on what I need to do to win temporary custody of my son.

I go to talk to my lawyer this afternoon about the temp custody situation.

GC.. thank you so much for this. This is helping me keep my focus.

Be strong, and let us know what your attorney says. I agree with GC. Several men here have practiced his theory, and it does seem to work.

Trying to be strong, still feels though like I'm swimming against the current. 180 is completely out of character for me, especially when I feel like everything that is important in my life is slipping away from me... I do know however that the tighter I hold on to get my marriage back the more it slips through my fingers. My son however is another story. I'm building the best case I can... but again, with her being a legal secretary who works with this every day, she knows how to navigate these waters much better than I do.. so I'm not nievly going in thinking that I have any sort of advantage.

Stay on the high road, but be decisive and don't let anyone step on you or put you in an unflattering light. Don't let them lay down the rules for your interactions.

It's this week-old post that still has me worried about you.

What do you think about that day? If you had it back what would you do differently?

That day is the day I solidified my decision to seek custody for my son now, and not wait for the end of the divorce.

Looking back on that day, it is what gives me strenghth to go on and the knowledge that I'm doing the right thing for my son, regardless of whether or not he and I have to move on with our lives with or without her.

Looking back on that day I would have avoided going into anything having to do with our problems in the marriage and stayed on the attack about her affair, that it is unacceptable, that it hurts everyone she cares about up to and including herself, and would have ended it at that.

Looking back I should have goaded him into hitting me, called the police and had them come pick up my son.

Looking back I think I've made some questionable decisions but feel very strongly that I am on the right course now.

Wow... she's really got me twisted.

She actually had her lawyer call mine up to convince him to get me to drop the temporary custody issue because 'He's only doing it to try and get her back, and that is not going to happen.'

I hope she continues to underestimate me like this.. it will make getting my son back that much easier.

We should have a judge and know when the date is for the Temporary Custody hearing sometime this week.

Now I've just got to get all my little ducks in a row and make sure her little ducks don't trump mine.

It's f'n on... if she really thinks this 25 year old kid is the answer to her dreams.. she can have him. But she will -not- drag my son through this kind of life.

We are now offically at war.

To be honest with everyone.. if it comes down to me having to fight her and win to protect my son.. by the time the judge hands down his decision.. it's probably going to be too late for her to try and come back at that point.

Let's see how this plays out.

Jamesus,

If you are already feeling like that, I would suggest going to plan B to protect the remaining love your have for your WS before you start hating her. This will at least give you a chance at reconciliation if she ends her affair.

I don't think Plan B will work until he gets custody of his kids. He needs to be able to communicate with her to check on his well being. After that, I agree that he should Plan B her...or more appropriately, plan D. While I agree with your approach for most situations Jim, IMO, this woman crossed a line that cannot be forgotten when she put her kids in a very bad situation.

Interesting, she thinks you're so desperate (and eeeeevi1!) that you'd use your son as bait to lure her back.

Take a strong position but also try to have as much compassion for her as you can. Look how confused she is. She thinks you're trying to make your child a pawn.

I suppose the main trait she sees in you is desperation. Don't give her any more reasons to believe that's what's happening.

Oh, and try not to show any anger when you interact with her. Just be cool, too cool for the room.

Have you been able to get out and do anything you enjoy lately? You ought to.

GC

I don't want to hi-jack the thread, I just wanted to say I have been following this and you are all like a band of brothers, what a good read!

Jim..

I've pretty much taken the 180 approach to her from this past weekend on. I think that's as close to a Plan B at this point as I can do until Temporary Custody comes in. We're still waiting on a judge at this point, and I'm making sure to get all my little ducks in a row.

I think I've got a strong case to get my son on a Temporary basis while she's living in a shared housing situation in order to get back on her feet. From everything I can see she hasn't even started to look into getting her own place so if she intends to stay with the new boyfriend and his mommy and daddy and brothers I think it can only play to my advantage.

MEDC - I think plan D is definitely going to go through. I recognize her actions though for what they are, the affair fog. Unfortunately you are right, she has crossed a line with the kids that cannot be forgotten. It's going to be a long hard road for her if she wants to come back at this point. I will leave the door for opportunity open, but it's by far not my focus at this point. Thank you by the way for sticking with me against your better judgement. I really appreciate your advice more than you can probably tell.

GC - I've actually been rather upbeat whenever she answers the phone. I don't talk to her about us anymore and simply ask to speak to my son, and then to my stepdaughter (which she has denied since Monday of last week). I've stopped asking how she's doing or if she needs anything. Actually I paid the CC bill that she agreed to take over today so that it wouldn't go late.

As far as doing things I enjoy, I've actually been writing music and working out on my home gym again. I've found a lot more energy for myself and have been able to reward myself with some great leisure time activity. Plus my son loves it when I play for him. Been spending loads of time with my daughter and that's made it much easier to deal with things and keeps my mind focused on the kids. Honestly the last couple of days I've felt really good about myself. Your post about me being the prize in this has really kicked me in the head where I needed to be kicked. I can't thank you enough.

Doingfine - Thanks for keeping up.. please feel free to chime in if you've got any suggestions.

Jamesus-

You sound strong. GREAT!

You have a plan, you're taking control and working the situation...that's EXACTLY what you need to be doing.

Just wanted to throw some words of encouragement at you...way to to!

Owl... oh wise one, don't think I've forgotten your words of wisdom either. I want you to know how much I appreciate your encouragement.

I feel strong, really for the first time in all of this I feel as if I'm operating from a position of strength. I feel like I've recovered some of my dignity. What a fool I was to allow myself to let her have that as well even for a month.

It is my family, my honor, my son, my heart and soul that I fight for now. -I- never turned away from them.. I never knowingly and willfully hurt my family or my kids.. I have the high ground and I intend to hold it until the bitter end.

Good man.

ditto

Jamesus...I'm the least wise person on this site. Ask anyone here...ask MEDC...he'll tell you!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Had I been wise...I might have avoided my own reasons for being here. I'm just trying to help others benifit from my own learning experiences.

Hehe... if anything I've learned so far from all of this Owl.. life is experiential.. the only way to learn is to live it.

It's like that quote from Batman Begins: Why do we fall? So that we can learn to pick ourselves up again.

Had a bad night again last night...

after sending her the notice about the CC bill she said that she was at work and didn't have time to read the emails I've sent over the past week. She said they looked pretty long and she would get to them and get back to me about them when she had time.

Whatever..

Last night I just kept going over and over in my head.. I -am- a good husband.. I gave in to just about everything she ever asked me for. I tried my best to change some of the things I did when she said it annoyed her. I put her through college, and supported her and my family for 2.5 years after my son was born without complaint that I wasn't getting any help from my 'partner'.

I -am- an excellent Father.. I found the stack of papers my kids did for me at daycare for Fathers Day... so much love in everything those kids wrote and drew, and did for me that day. Their words, and their art tells me every time I look at it that I -am- their father.. her daughter, which she's hidden away from me now, has only known me as her dad for the past 3 years.. She was livid when I called her ex-husband two weeks ago, saying she would never let her daughter go through that pain again... she doesn't even stop to think that she is the one putting them through it this time with the choice that she's made.

It's sickening to think that I could even open the door to the possibility of her hurting those kids like this ever again. I'm honestly not sure if I can do it.. take that chance. She said in the letter she left at the house wanting a divorce that she couldn't risk being unhappy... but her choice is guaranteeing the misery and pain for me, and her children for a lifetime..

Pathetic...
Selfish...
Childish...

Her kids and I did nothing to deserve the pain and suffering she is putting us through... I love her, and I love my kids.. but the difference here is that she can choose.. these kids have no choice, and I know that if they could see their lives 10 years down the road.. they'd pick me.. the one who loves them and considers them first before myself..

Guys.. I need help.. I need your encouragement.. I need guidance. This still seems to be following the 'script' for an affair.. but at the same time, I don't know that I want her back. I'm actually fine with plan D... but with her being a paralegal.. and the court system the way it is with favors and everyone being friends outside of court, I feel my chances.. even with an airtight case are probably pretty slim..

Once again in dispair.. I feel lost and hopeless. I know I'm in the right here.. I know that I am the one who is thinking of these kids rather than myself. I know that I'm the one who did not make the conscious choice to destroy my family.. so why do I hurt so much?

hopefully you have realized now that this does not make a good H. You need to have a backbone in a relationship to keep the respect of your W. From my vantage point, it seemed like this woman walked all over you.



You certainly are showing that right now by protecting them from the greatest threat to their welfare...their mother.

Just because your wife has chosen this path does not mean that you and the kids will need to be unhappy. I am living proof that no matter what a mother does... a father can protect his children and give them a stable life. It isn't easy and that is why I suggested getting in touch with a father's rights attorney...but it can be done.

Stop worrying about her job as a paralegal...big deal. Get yourself the best attorney you can find and tip the scales in your favor. Your chances are not impacted by her employer even a little bit. You are finding reasons and in some cases fabricating them and getting yourself in a frenzy.

Get the lawyer you need and let this play out...you might be very surprised by the outcome.

I sincerely hope I am suprised by the outcome.

I think I do have the right lawyer.. I just need to be providing him with the right information. I've got a pretty good idea what that is now, I've just got to get it all together and make sure that I'm not missing anything.

Need to get my witnesses/neighbors together.. get a statement from the school nurse for my stepdaughter that she was treated for flea bites at school.. get the daycare people on board for my son.. and hope for the best.

BTW..

HNHN and SAA are due to arrive tonight...

Got some reading to do after she comes to get our son tonight at 8:30

Might just have them lying out when she gets there.

Well.. the books did not come last night. Perhaps I'll see them tonight.

Not sure how much good they'll do though. I'm feeling pretty cold to the situation right now.

WW stopped by last night to pick up our son, and so I let her in the house while I put his shoes on.

WW told me that our 8 year old wanted some of her things. I told her that she was welcome to come any time and take of her things what she wants to have over there.

WW said "I don't think she'll want to do that, she's pretty mad at you right now."

I said "I don't understand why.. what did you say to her that made her so mad at me?"

WW said "I told her the truth.. that if you get DS that she will only get to visit with him on Wednesdays and every other weekend. She's mad at you because you're taking her brother away from her, and she's also mad at you for disrespecting her mother."

I stifled a chuckle at that and just shook my head "That poor little girl.." I murmered, "She's really confused if she thinks you're the one who has been disrespected in all of this."

WW said "What's that supposed to mean?"

I said "I really don't want to talk about it with you anymore, it hurts too much, and I definitely don't want to have this discussion in front of our son... Please just give her a hug and tell her that I love her very much."

With that I kissed my son, and told him I'd see him the day after tomorrow.


I really want to send an email explaining my comments, possibly work them into a Plan B letter.. I think I'm going to have to go dark if I'm going to be able to protect what love I have left for my W.

WW is completely twisted.. seems to feel completely justified in her actions, and can't even see just how deeply she is hurting these kids. Stepdaughter still struggles with the abandonment of her Bio-Father.. and now WW is the one who is causing her to go through that pain all over again.. severing her contact with me is going to cause those feelings all over again.. there is a deep love between me and Stepdaughter.. I've always treated her as my own.. and I think that this, really hurts even more than the thought that my wife may never see just how wrong all of this is, or even be capable of accepting responsibility for what she has done..

Any advice from the veterans here on how to handle this?

J,

I am certainly no veteran here, but wanted to stop in to tell you that you did well with this exchange last night.

Your WW using your DSD like that makes me so upset for you all!!

Your response was perfect!!


Refusing to engage in this CRAZY talk in front of your son was most certainly the right way to handle this.

My sitch is like yours. I have a DSS who was also abandonded by his bio-mom. He's been MY SON since he was 5. Yet, Drac (MY WH), refuses to see the damage he is causing his own son, not to mention our daughter who lives with me.



Yep - - I could put in Drac in place of your WW.

Stick here on the boards for some great advice. Focus on being the best Dad you can to BOTH of your kids, they will see it and thank you some day.

Protect yourself and the love you have left as best you can. I will try to catch up more on your sitch. I just wanted you to know you are not alone.

Hang in there!

Bugsmom...

I'm so sorry to hear that things are the same way with you. Nobody deserves to feel the way I know you and I both feel.

Thanks for the post, and the encouragement.. I can't tell you how much better it feels to know that I'm not alone.

James,

Have you discussed any of this with you atty? Is there a chance that because your stepdaughters dad is not a part of her life, that you could get legal visitation rights for her?

Were you very actively involved in her life, such as taking her to school activites, doing homework with her, taking her to soccer...

I wonder if her being pulled away and isolated from you after you were established as her dad for all intents and purposes would not sit well with a judge.

It's worth a try, and I know that I did read a story of a stepparent custody case that went all the way to the high courts and he won custody.

It's a long shot for sure, but at least this little girl would know that you have not abandoned her, as her dad did. How horibly wrong of your WS to do this. Is her mother around? She needs a good swift kick.

James,

Check with your attorney but somewhere in your court case you should document your desire and request for some kind of custody or visitation rights to Step-daughter. Even if you aren't legally entitled to it at least it will be there to someday show your step daughter that you did TRY to get some access to her. That YOU were not abandoning her. That her mom denied your attempts to be with her.

Also, waywards once divorced, no matter what happens in court tend to be very forgiving. They forgive easily because they want everyone else to forgive them. Plus, your wife is a selfish wayward who likely will WANT to dump her step daughter on you from time to time and/or she will be a "sucker" to her stepdaughter that requests time with you. Doesn't always happen this way...but can. In your court case, you need to stay out of the mud. Allow your attorney to be the bad guy. Then you can seemingly make peace with your XW in order to get to see Step Daughter more.

Last...after this is all said and done I think you should consider setting up a separate bank account where you place or have direct deposit $5-$30 per week. Then in 8 years when your step daughter turns 16 you'll be able to offer to buy her a car with the funds. You tell her that since the day she left you've been putting away a little money in hopes to use it on HER to get her a car to come see you more often. If you go more toward the high end $20 - $30 per week you could even use the money to help her with college. Give her the essence that you never stopped thinking about her and always considered her yours. She will be an adult one day and she will have complete automony to see you whenever she wants.

Good guys DO win in the end.

Mr. Wondering

I'll ask my atty about it. He's been pretty clear though that we have no legal ground to stand on with DSD.

Guess it couldn't hurt to ask at least for some kind of visitation in the final order... not that I think it'll do much good.. not in this state at least.

WW says that the child doesn't -want- to see or talk to me. I'm not sure how to feel about that.. I know it's the WW poisoning her.

I like the idea Mr.W... think I'll start doing that.

An 8 yo doesn't have the mental ability or the power to stand up against her mother. She doesn't hate you or even dislike you... remember she is a child who has been thrust into complete confusion and uncertainty.

My daughter even at 8 had a pretty good sense of something that didn't quite add up, and your stepdaughter probably does as well.

As Mr. W says, after the dust has settled, and especially if you continue to take the high road, you may be a part of her life again.

Don't do anything that is against what your atty advises, but perhaps you could send cards and what not to the grandparents house for her, not ever putting anything in them that would cause more confusion or upset in her world regarding her mother. Or in other words you are going to have to show respect for her mother to protect this young girls feelings, but you can maintain the truth and speak it as well. At least when she gets older and it is more appropriate.

I worry about this girl, and if it were a child in my family I would be very thankful that her stepdad was standing up for her right to be raised in a stable and loving environment with a parent that she has come to know and trust as being someone who cares about and for her.

I said "I really don't want to talk about it with you anymore, it hurts too much, and I definitely don't want to have this discussion in front of our son... Please just give her a hug and tell her that I love her very much."

Perfect.

If she thinks she is the "disrespected" one here, she's crazy, and you don't get into debates with crazy people.

You seem calm, self-assured, and--this is huge--now YOU are the one disengaging from R talk.

If she wants to talk about coming home, R talk might make sense. Otherwise she's just trolling for justification. The more that comes out of your mouth, the more she'll send through the crazy machine and turn into reasons for continuing her new lifestyle.

MrW's idea is excellent.

GC

That's a good way of putting it. Send through the crazy machine indeed.

Wow... I'm really glad to hear that you guys think I'm doing the right things now.

I don't know if I'd have even made it this far without you guys.

DJ's and AO's are always rushing to the front of my mind when I'm talking to her.. especially face to face.. and especially when I want so much to keep emailing her to try to 'straighten her out'... I know these aren't things I can do and be successful in the end.

Can't tell you how hard it was to say that I didn't want to talk about it with her when all I want to do is be able to have a real adult conversation with her about all of this... I also know that isn't possible right now... probably won't be for a long time.

I'm going to do what I can to get my son.. get through the D and keep hoping and praying that she will come to her senses before I lose any feeling at all for her.

I still love her dearly.. but what she has done to this family, the pain she has caused our kids and me.. without even seeming to care a whit about the fallout.. It makes it hard to love.. to keep loving.. to keep caring at all. If it were anyone else in the world that hurt my family like this I'd hunt them down and do terrible terrible things to them.. but with her, at least right now.. I'm just incredibly sad.

Thanks to you guys I'm starting to learn how to cope.. I really think I need to at least start Plan B at this point. Plan A is going to be futile as there's really no way for me to meet -any- of her EN's with the situation the way it is. I've read a few people's plan B letters, and I'm hoping that the SAA book will help me craft my own in a way that will leave a lasting impression before I completely sever all contact that doesn't have to do with the kids.

I read about 19 pages of SDGuy's Plan B but can't find it anymore.. was really starting to give me some ideas about how it might be with my own.. if anyone has a link to it or can find it in the search (I've tried).. I'd really like to finish reading that thread.

With a young son and a step daughter you have no legal right to custody (i.e. - the court would LIKE to keep the kids together)....

You have an uphill battle at winning custody.

50-50 if you do everything perfect.

Much of that comes down to the judge.

What's my point?

You are likely going to have to do a modified Plan B lest WW's attorney tries to utilize your Plan B as a unwillingness to co-parent your child.

A modified Plan B doesn't change much for you. The difference is WW thinks she can communicate with you by certain means and you just have an intermediary filter your stuff for you. Your Plan B letter doesn't say you won't have ANY contact except for emergencies. It might say "you won't have ANY contact except for things to do with your son and in that event only phone calls for dire emergencies, text messages for urgent matters and email for all other things to do with your son (and step daughter). Maybe then you add that you will or may be having a independent 3rd party act as intermediary should be prove unable to respect such communication boundaries. (meaning if she makes communications about things unrelated to son and step daughter....SHE breaks the rules...THEN an intermediary can be used openly and you have wiggle room with the court because SHE choose to disregard your reasonable and thought out attempt at effective co-parenting).

Either way... you still auto-forward her emails to an intermediary that will edit out any crap and forward it back to you for your response to her.

WW seemingly can contact you at will...but not really. You don't answer your cell phone. Let it go to voice mail and let someone else listen to it. Text messages get huge delayed responses such that she doesn't utilize text messages for long. Email...is the only route for her to get any decent response but she won't know she's being completely edited out.

It's a work in progress. Plan B can and will be used against you by effective counsel unless you taylor it to meet the perceived needs of the court for the illusion of co-parenting and communication.

Mr. Wondering

Would it be better than to keep trying at least the self improvement part of Plan A.. and an effective 180 until the D is final and then switch to Plan B?

I just hope I can hang on to the love I have for her if it takes that long.

Here is the letter I plan on sending.

If anyone has suggestions or comments, please let me know.

WW,

I don't want there to be any misunderstanding between us about what was said last night in the context of DSD, and especially regarding who between the two of us has been disrespected.

No, I will not have these conversations in front of our son, that is why I said I didn't want to talk to you about it.

Here is my position on the matter.

1) What you told to DSD about what you think I'm trying to do for our son, is exactly what you have done to me. Keeping the kids from me except for Wednesdays and every other weekend. Now you're keeping DSD from me completely. I have asked many times to take DSD and DS on either Monday or Tuesday night as well to go to Gymnastics/Cheerleading and still be a part of their lives. Each time I've asked for additional time it has been refused. I certainly would not do this to you, and beyond that, DSD is always welcome in my home regardless of whose 'day' it is, and will have access to DS any time that she wants it, and that you permit.

2) By casting me in the light you have, you will one day have to accept the responsibility that you are doing to her, what your ex-husband did to her 3 years ago. I will always love that little girl, and I will never turn my back on her, no matter what she's been fed about me. I am deeply saddened that you seem intent on putting her through that pain again. It's bad enough that you've made a choice to destroy this family and marginalize the only man (including her father) who has ever been in her life that actually committed to raising her and loving her as a daughter.

3) Regarding respect: I have always respected you for who you are, you have always known this as well even from the very beginning. My Wife was a very open, honest, loving woman who had her problems (was often emotionally distant, unmotivated, liked to read a little too much) but when the times were good, they were great, and made all of the down times worth going through. Don't get me wrong, I take full responsibility for my half of the marriage as well, and know that I was by far not perfect.. but I always believed the good outweighed the bad.

My Wayward Wife has made the choice not to work on our marriage, completely emotionally disengage from her husband, lie, omit, and rationalize her behavior to family and friends, engage in a relationship with the son of her coworker in front of our children, remove them from their home, and remove them from their Father who consistently improved their lives, provided almost all of their daily needs, and who loved them and still does.

I love and respect my Wife. I do, however have very little respect for my Wayward Wife's decisions to so carelessly and thoughtlessly harm my family, my children, and me so that she can 'take the chance' on 'happiness' with someone else.


As a result of these things, I ask you not to carry on discussions about 'us' or you and Diana's son in front of our children, as these conversations would no doubt expose them to concepts and ideas that I do not want to expose our children to, despite them having to live with it in front of them every day right now. This 'friendship' as you call it isn't so special and unique as your emotions and 'happiness' are leading you to believe. It is in fact a very sinful and damaging emotional betrayal of your Husband, your family, your children, and your God.

Furthermore, until you have let this affair run its course, and have established no contact forever with your lover and the family that is enabling this affair, I do not feel any discussions about 'us' will be of any benefit other than to destroy what love I have left for you. I will do everything in my power to help you in every way to co-parent our son, and I will always be willing to treat matters concerning DSD the very same way. I believe it is important for both of them to know that there is a father and mother in their lives that love them very much, and provide for their needs. They are the innocent victims in all of this, and I only seek to protect them the best I can from the lasting pain of this decision.

One day, when the fog of this 'friendship' you have formed clears.. I am sure that you will be able to reflect upon our marriage and see that we have survived in good times and bad, for better or for worse, and only when we pulled together did we improve our situation. This is the first time that either of us in this relationship has unilaterally made a 'big' decision for the family. When we decide together, we have always enriched our lives. This choice has destroyed our family, and hurt us all.

You may have closed your door, but mine will remain open.

I have asked for the last month for you to reconsider. I will ask no more.. I also no longer wish or long for the marriage we had. I believe we both deserve a better marriage. The choice is yours as to whether you wish to persue that with the father of your children, the man who still holds the values you once at least claimed to hold above all others, and the one who committed his life to you... or you can persue that with someone else. This is your choice, and regardless of the things that I did in our marriage that made you feel lonely, ultimately you are going to have to bear the responsibility of what you have chosen to do, the responsibility of 'faking it' through the last 8 months and not reminding me when you still felt alone, and for the ultimate destruction of our family. This is not the choice I made.

The only favor I ask of you, is to remind our children daily that I do love them, and know that I do still love you. It's because of that love for my family that I choose to suffer the endless rejections and hateful looks, the lies, the total revision you've made of our married life, and still choose our family to be the one I have for the rest of my life. I've told you that I would die for you and our children.. believe me, this hurt I feel every day is worse than death.. and yet I suffer it for you.

personally....I wouldn't send her any letter at this point. show no desperation for her to return...
continue your course of trying to get custody of your child....and James, I will tell you that I am still shocked that you EVER give her your son back knowing she is taking him there.
Have no written communication with her without the consent of your lawyer.

MEDC... I fully understand your position.

I don't think this shows desperation.. honestly I don't feel desperate at this point.

It will honestly be much harder, for much longer if she does decide to come back.. but for the sake of my family I am willing to do what it takes to at least try.

This is, to some effect, my Plan B letter at least during the D... with a full on Plan B to come once it's all over if the A is still hanging around that long... and provided what interaction I have to have with her doesn't completely destroy what feelings I have for her.

I also understand and respect your position on my son. Believe me, there is a very large part of me that wants very much to take your advice and run with it. What I am doing with him however, is what my lawyer and I determined to be interpreted as the best course of action in the eyes of the court in the light of the case I am building for my son.

Trust us, don't send the letter. If you are going to do anything, get a REAL plan B letter ready to go. Your letter will hurt more than it will help.

I trust you.. that's why I asked.

How is this going to hurt more than help? I guess I need to understand that so that I can keep what I need to keep in mind going forward.

She just pick apart the stuff she doesn't like and use it as justification to continue her affair and the divorce. You can't reason with a WS, so trying to is just an LB. Just let her stew on her own thoughts. Don't add any fuel to the fire.

Don't do or send anything until after temp custody is determined. This is your number one priority right now, along with securing finances.

Because she has moved out and divorced is filed for, and there are children involved.

Afterwards you can do the Plans and try to reconcile if you want.

Try to take the advice on how to handle her convo's with you as you are being given by the folks here who have dealt with this, but solicit no convos with her, and give her no food for that crazy making machine.

Relationship talk should be avoided at this point. You can present a strong, upbeat, self to her for the few moments you see her, and avoid all LB's.

Your answers to her R babble should be limited to "yes, I understand" "I'm sorry you feel that way" "I love my family, and this is not what I want", etc.

You letter is filled with DJ's, and it won't be rec'd as you hope. It probably won't even be read.

When you engage in R talk with a wayward who has already decided they want a divorce it backfires, and it only reenforces in their mind how much they want to get away from you.

Your best bet James is through actions. She may change her mind down the road, her feelings may change as hey often do, but it is yuor actions which will have the most affect, not your words.

Your action to fight for your son, and visitation rights for yuo stepdaughter will do more than any words to show her what a strong, steadfast, capable man you are. This is attractive in the long haul.

Stay your course, even though it is very hard and painful, this letter will not take away your pain or illicit a change of mind in her. I'm sorry. But time is going to be your friend, and the fact that her 25 yo affair parent boy is not going to be able to measure up to you in the long run.

Don't worry, she will probably be back, and at the time you can decide if you want her or not. Don't worry about that right now.

You guys definitely make a lot of sense...

I guess I really was looking at this as sort of a Plan B type thing.. but in reality I -do- need to hold off on Plan A or Plan B until the custody thing is done.. hopefully it won't be a long wait..

I guess what I'm hearing is that: SHE MUST COME TO THESE THINGS ON HER OWN.

I just don't see it happening while she's mixed up with this family.

I saw this as a way to 'stand up to her' or 'stand up for myself'..

You're right.. don't do -anything- to put my case for my son in jepoardy..

BTW... anyone have any luck on locating SDGuy's Plan B?

I've been looking for it all day..

Do not send that letter.

Okay, now I'll read it...

DO NOT SEND THAT LETTER.

That is a write-it-and-throw-it-in-the-fire letter if I've ever seen one. Get rid of that thing.

GC

Thanks for the input GC..

I haven't sent it.. I still have it, and it's in my journal.. along with a lot of other thoughts that I'm sure wouldn't benefit me where it comes to my W.

I received Harley's books Surviving an Affair and His Needs Her Needs last night, and am about half way through SAA.. I'm hopeful again.. but also very scared because of how close I feel John and Sue's story is to my own. At times while I read this I think to myself.. yes, I can do this.. my family is worth it.. and at others I can't imagine allowing myself or my kids to go through this kind of pain on a prolonged basis...

I know the end result is the goal.. and I know in my heart that I love my wife.. but if this A keeps going on the way it is.. the hateful looks and lies from my W.. when I did nothing to deserve this sort of treatment (not saying I'm not at least 70% responsible for creating the environment that led to the A).. and especially seeing my children suffer is making -enormous- withdraws from my Love Bank..

Ok... so now that I've got my head screwed on a little tighter.. how do I interact with her and still preserve what love I -do- have left for her while I wait for the A to die what I fear is going to be a natural death.. like Sue's in the book...

skip the book for now...you are not in Plan A or Plan B. You are in Plan..whatever it takes to get your kid back...THAT SHOULD BE YOUR SINGULAR FOCUS RIGHT NOW. After that you can implement a Plan A or B IF you really want a woman back that would put your child in such a precarious situation. I never would...but that is a personal call.

Your interactions should be business like. James...let me ask you a question that I don't believe you have answered staright up as of yet...WHY are you still letting your child go over there? What is your motivation for doing that?

MEDC... my lawyer advised me, because one of our strong points is that throughout the current process I have been the cooperative parent, that not returning DS at the agreed upon times would throw that point back into her favor..

I can't -prove- an immediate threat to justify such an action.. most of what I know of what goes on over at that house came out of the mouth of an 8 year old and now I'm cut off from her as well.

Based on my experience...and you should defer to your lawyer...this is a HUGE mistake. So, your lawyer has suggested that her removing the child from HIS home and letting him shack up with the OM is being coopoerative??? I think you would do very well to get another opinion...the longer your son stays there...the less likely the courts will be to allow him back. Ask around Jim...I think both you and your attorney are making a serious mistake here.

I know.. but what he's saying to me makes sense. I don't want to give the courts the appearance that I'm playing tug of war with my son, or being uncooperative.

I think there are other merits of my case that will outweigh the 'timeline' at this point.

While it's driving me nuts.. believe me it is.. it is also giving me more and more ammunition to use the longer he is there and I can show that someone other than my WW is taking him to daycare etc...

That's just it... I think you are LOSING ground with your actions...that you are giving away your ammunition.
I think that your cooperation will be seen in a VERY neagtive light...if I were the one deciding this I would strongly question how a parent could allow their child in that situation...YOU will not be viewed as cooperative IMO...you will be viewed as ENABLING...HUGE difference.

You...and YOU alone...are sitting back and allowing a new "normal or status quo" to be created and the longer it is in existence...the greater the chance a judge will be hesitant to change it.

Last time Jim....fight for your child...and enabling is NOT fighting. Call a father's rights specialist and get another opinion.

http://www.mddivorcelawyers.com/books/fathers-rights.php

Man.. you're really beating me up about this.. and believe me.. I -do- understand where you're coming from.

My lawyer tells me that we will have a judge soon and get the Temporary Custody thing settled.. I am going to bide my time until then. I have faith in my lawyer that he knows what he is doing.. I'm following his advice and gathering every shred of evidence I can to get my son back while this D is going on.

Ordered the book..

good.

James...I am not beating you up. I am just shocked at the advice you are being given...the most basic...and I mean BASIC of "rules" in situations like this is for the children to remain in their home. I cannot fathom why your attorney is not in this camp. His recommendation is making em question his competence.

I feel where you are coming from.. and believe me, it's what I -want- to do.. but my lawyer assures me that it will do irreparable damage to my case.. I have to believe him as he knows the judges and the courts well.. he's worked in this town for ages...

J,

MEDC is right about the best thing is for the children to be at HOME. But, I have to tell you that I am not surprised by the response from your A. You just don't have the right A yet.

Unfortunately, so much of the world is desensitized (sp)to separation, adultery, and all of the true horror that goes along with it. Many people just accept it as "that is the way it works".

YOU get to determine how it works for YOU and your kids. Either make this A do as you wish or better yet, find another who shares your viewpoints. This will be a long haul and you need someone who is truly on your TEAM.

I say "your kids" because you are a father to ALL of them, just like I am Mom to my DSS. That will NEVER change no matter what our WSs say, think, or do. That is something inside of US and something we have shared with our kids that will last a lifetime.

Although it is general, vague, and not worth the paper it is written on, I did have it put into my parenting plan that I get to see my DSS. Frankly Drac can pull that out from under me at any time. BUT, at least it is there IN WRITING for DSS to see someday that I always WANT him in my life. Drac, in fact, is using this very thing right now to get to me. It hurts that he would pull this crap,,, just like your WW is doing to you.

Stay strong. Fight the good fight. Don't let anyone tell you that you are wrong for fighting for what you know to be RIGHT and in the best interest of your kids!!

Bugsmom,

Did your lawyer say there was any chance at all in you getting visitation for you DSS?

Why would these idiots not want you guys to see kids who have become attached to you? Especially when they need to have some kind of simblance of normalcy and continuity. I don't get that. I mean after all that has happened with my DD's dad and her step-mom and how hard I fought to maintain the parental lines, I would break his friggen neck if he left that woman now, after my daughter is attached to her and her half-siblings. Argh! These people! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Weaver,

My lawyer was very specific,,,, there was NO chance of me getting any LEGAL rights to my DSS. Period. End of story. It's all at Drac's whim and fancy.

The saddest part in my sitch is that DSS's Bio Mom hasn't seen him, called him, written to him, sent a gift or a card since he was 7. *I* paid the lawyer and guardian fees when Drac filed for FULL custody when DSS was 6.



Neither do I!!!


Good for you for seeing this, and doing what you know is best for your kids!!

J,

sorry for the TJ.

What's happening in your world???

Because that would be a violation of parental rights. While I agree that it is terrible, the slippery slope that would be created by taking away a parents right to decide what is in the best interest of their child would be an even bigger travesty.

Had a good weekend with my DS and DD... still no contact with DSD despite my DD even asking to speak with her on the phone.

Took DS and DD to a monster truck show at the state fairgrounds on Saturday and spent most of yesterday after Mass outside in the yard with them.

It breaks my heart hearing my son say several times over the course of the weekend that he wants to come home.. and he wants mommy and sissy to come home too. It hurts because that's what I want too.. more than anything.

When WW came to pick our son up on Sunday she stood outside on the front porch and didn't say a word.. not even a hello to my DD who she hasn't said a word to the entire time this has been going on.. Told her that I was making an appointment to sit down with one of the priests in our parish and that I would like her to come, and would tell her when the appointment was. Looked like it hit her right in the gut.

Putting in a call to my lawyer today.. it's taking -way- too long to get a judge IMO.. the longer this goes on the more my son suffers.. and the harder it's going to be to break the new status-quo.

Is it common for a WW to be so completely cold?

yes, that is common.

IMO, you could get an emergency petition to have a hearing regarding your son by weeks end. I did it...I think you can too.

I'll bounce that off my lawyer.. his opinion thus far is that for there to be an emergency that we need to show an immediate physical danger to my son... unfortunately the only thing I can show is how emotionally distraught he is over this situation, and that she is now isolating DSD from me and her stepsister.

there was no physical danger to my son...none was alleged either.
and you don't know what type of danger your son might be in...you just don't know.
go to the court yourself and talk to someone down there...tell them your son has been taken from his home and you need help.

Agreed!

The WS has no right to bring a third party parent into their child's life, and then take them away. Which is why I fought so hard against my DD's step-mother acting in a parental fashion. But now that she is in fact family to my DD, and a "mother" figure with half-siblings involved, should he pull this crap, I would have to fight with her.

So many on here think I am wrong to insist that my husband remain only a "good friend and good host" to my DD, leaving her dad and I to act as her parents...but this is why.

It's about the big picture.

James, still reading, nothing else to add to your sitch at this time, except hope you are eating and sleeping, and taking care of yourself through all this. There is joy after this kind of devastional nightmare. Trust us on this.

MEDC.. still waiting to hear back from laywer on this.. will keep you posted.

Weaver: Yes.. actually eating and sleeping well. Still managed to go from 210Lbs to 180 since Aug 16th. The appetite isn't as big as it used to be and I'm pretty sure my capacity to put it away has diminished.

I was the cook in the family and I -love- to eat good food.. but right now I still can't taste anything.

I've committed to myself to stop smoking and finally get on a regular schedule with the workout equipment I bought for my birthday in July. I think this can only improve my self esteem at this point and might make me more attractive to the WW at the same time.. I'm actually almost back down to the weight I was when we first met.. and have actually given myself a bit of an ego boost as a result.

Add to that there are some A/D drugs that go with the smoking cessation thing.. maybe it'll help take the edge off of some of these lows... I can only hope.. Sunday was a very painful day for me.. attending mass was something that we always did as a family.. I had no contact with the Catholic church before her and honestly didn't know if I had it in me to go back..

Putting my faith in God right now because He is the only one who can speak to her heart.. I can't educate her.. I can't show her anything but how strong I can be in the face of this ****** she is putting me and our children through. The priest said to me: Be to your wife as God is to the Church.. though many wander away from his grace from time to time, however, we all eventually come to seek it again. So will it be with your wife. Continue to love her and be a strong father for your children. They need you desperately in this hour.


Just want to say thanks again to everyone who is posting.. I thrive for at least a little while on the encouragement I am receiving now after I spent nearly a month screwing things all up.

I did spend a lot of quiet time after my daughter and son went to bed this weekend to evaluate some of the things that I did that made her feel lonely.. Things like my band and leisure activities that she wasn't necessarily enthusiastic about or made her feel ignored.. I would give these things up in a heartbeat if she were to walk through that door.. but I don't know if I want to give them up in the face of the very real prospect that she won't.. Things she doesn't believe I'm willing to do.. and I guess maybe she's right that I'm not.. unless it is what I have to do to save my marriage. Right now playing music and working with my band have been some of the best therapy I've had..

I've committed to myself to stop smoking and finally get on a regular schedule with the workout equipment I bought for my birthday in July.

I was a light smoker until my former wife's affair and the divorce. I quit twice during that time. The first time I lasted about five months. Then I stopped taking ADs without consulting my doctor. I didn't even realize at first that I was using nicotine to replace the things, but I was smoking like crazy. I'd get these little earthquakes of intense sadness and I'd just smoke my way through the aftershocks. I didn't finally quit for real until the divorce was over with and the dust began to settle. One night while traveling I stood on the street outside my hotel puffing away. I finished the cigarette and put it out and something happened in me. I thought to myself That's my last cigarette and dip me in sh*t, it was.

Quitting worked when I got comfortable with the thought that I can never smoke one single cigarette, not ever, no matter what. That's what worked for me. Cold turkey 4evah!

Right now playing music and working with my band have been some of the best therapy I've had..

Same went for me. I remember telling my friend one night during the bad time that my life was filled with sorrow and that the only time I got a break from it was when I was playing music with him and the rest of the band

GC

GC.. I can't tell you how much I appreciate a kindred spirit out there like you.

To everyone.. thank you so much for your support, and caring for this miserable soul, and my family. I thank God for each and every one of you every day.

Well..

Looks like her and OM are looking to get a house...

Deep deep deep fog.. I feel so incredibly betrayed, hopeless..

She has -nothing-.. gross is $550/week.. how the ****** is she going to afford a house????

What the heck is she thinking?

Granted she's looking at about 750/month in support but dang.. houses have bills, constantly need maintenance.. WTF!?!?

She's completely lost it.. there's no reaching her.. there's nothing left..

How could she do this to me.. my family.. my kids.. entire lives completely destroyed and for WHAT!?!?

For some 25 year old kid who isn't going to last?

Stupid stupid stupid!!!

I've been there.

My wife and OM looked a couple house too. I found a listing flyer in her car. Found out much later in recovery it was just part of the fantasy. My wife was actually a little hestitant but she didn't dare let on to OM, lest he get insecure and not give her her dose of affair bullcrap.

On the proactive side. She's got no FINAL child support order to show any lender (temp agreements and orders mean nothing to them). You may yet be able to get a ding or two on her credit report by paying a credit card late. Of course, that will effect your credit too and this assumes you still have a joint card. Maybe the you pay your joint mortgage a week late this month. Nothing like bad credit to screw up any plans to buy a house. Then...if they still do it...it will have to be 100% on OM's credit and ability to pay. Worst case, she can leave him high and dry when the affair goes down the tubes.

Jamesus...this is par for the course. Usually, waywards dream big but fail to take action. I hope that for now all you are getting is indications that this is what they intend to do...not something they are in the actual process of doing. Big difference.

Plus..if they buy a home outside your daughters school district that's another item on your side of the custody dispute.(nevermind...forgot she's your DD and wife's SDD) Courts like consistency and are hestitant to make kids switch schools. Plus...it opens up a new can of exposure targets...new neighbors.

Keep your head up. This ain't over by a longshot.

Mr. Wondering

I remember what this feels like. You think you've felt some bad stuff and you've absorbed the blows and collected yourself and gotten prepared for possibly more attacks from that side. Then you're hit from a different direction and it gives you a new kind of pain that reveals your vulnerability and seems almost ingenious in its design.

I remember being amazed by how brilliant my wife had become at inventing new ways to hurt me that I had not predicted.

If you're not going to turn your back on her and divorce her quickly you have to be prepared for the escalation. She'll keep finding surprising and seemingly clever ways to hurt you. She's just bumbling into them but when they happen they almost seem like the work of an evil genius.

These are the things that can eventually cause you to just check out, or else hate her.

GC

Just to add...

WWs are like flaky friends or acquaintances that move away and then tell you how much better their new situation is and six months later it's fallen apart and they're back.

Except some WWs believe the damage they've done cannot be repaired, or they're too proud, or too embarrassed, or pregnant, and so they don't come back.

Or they think what they did is perfectly okay and they don't come back.

Or you've told them "I hate you; don't ever come back" so they don't.

GC

Well...

With the revelation that she -is- getting out of the terrible living situation, I had a thought and called her last night, left a message on her VM saying:

WW.. I really don't want this to be a completely adversarial process, and I would like to avoid if at all possible dragging our son through the courts. I'd like to try and work something out with you that we would both think is fair, like a 50-50 week on/week off arrangement, which I am entitled to at least until temporary orders are given. I'd like to discuss it with you and try to come up with something we can both live with.. call me back so we can discuss this.


Well.. as I'm sure many of you have already guessed, she called back about 1/2 hour later and her answer was an adamant 'no f'n way'.. saying that it would be too unstable for him to go back and forth between us. I explained that it would be less pick ups/dropoffs than the every Wednesday and every other weekend thing, and allow us both to continue to have the best relationship we can with our son outside of him having two loving parents together trying to work out the marriage.

That part of the conversation obviously went nowhere, but she opened the floodgates and we had a 2 hour discussion where I remained perfectly calm (she saw it as me being a condescending [censored] though) and tried my best to talk through many of the issues with our marriage that made her unhappy. Ultimately of course she was adamant that she's moved on with her life, and there's no way she would ever consider coming home.. she did say at one point though 'I care about you.. you're DS's Father.. but there's nothing else'.. slight variation on the ILYBNILWY fogtalk I think.

True to plan A when I referenced things I stuck to the good parts of our marriage, happy times, and how I know and understand that right now she is very angry.. and I fully accepted my responsibility for making her feel neglected.. and I told her about many of the changes I've implemented in my life.. of course to her it was 'too late for that now'... We kept talking, and working through issues.. and while I don't think any -real- progress was made in getting her to come home, I do think that the emotional barrier that has thus far kept her from talking to me has weakened a bit.. I kept saying things like 'I'm committed to our marriage.. I believe in you.. I'm sorry you feel that way.. It doesn't have to be this way.. This is your choice.." etc...

I don't think I LB'd badly.. of course with her calling me a condescending [censored] several times.. I probably did.. but I kept with the message of 'I love you.. I love my family and am committed to making this marriage work.. to making it better. We both deserve a better marriage than the one we had.'

I dunno.. maybe there's some 2x4's in order for me today.. but honestly I think we made progress.. and she admitted that she thought so too, but it wouldn't change anything..

I'm going to ask my lawyer today to send a request to her lawyer for equal parenting time at least until orders are given.. I know she won't agree to it, but at least it'll be documented that I'm -trying- to be diplomatic with her and work this out without involving the courts.

MEDC.. before you go ballistic on me for this, know that I'm not dropping the temporary custody thing.. and I am loading up my ammo for the family court.. eye is on the ball. I got the book last night by the way, and am about half way through it.. got interrupted by the phone call.

Oh hey... forgot to add this one..

During one of her 'you're talking like a condescending [censored] again' she made the comment 'You're acting like I'm some crazy person who doesn't know their own mind.. '

I had to pause.. can't tell you the way the smile spread on my face... I certainly wasn't talking to her like a crazy person and I said to her 'Honey.. I'm not talking down to you.. I'm trying to understand how it is that you feel about these things..'

Also.. caught her in a lie about the daycare.. she said that he's been going every day.. I asked her to send that to me in writing.. she asked 'Why would I do that?' I said.. well, how many days in August did DS go to daycare after you left me? No answer (he didn't)... how many days before September 12th did he go to daycare? Her answer 'What's your point with all of this?' I said, 'I'm just trying to get an honest answer..'

Heh... WW's are funny sometimes.. honestly slept well last night dispite cutting my normal sleep time down by about 2 hours.

By the way.. thanks guys for keeping me focused on the goal.

Know I didn't say it in my post but you're right Mr.W.. this ain't over by a long shot.

But it is something they are acting on it seems.. she says she's preapproved and has been looking at houses in the school district we are currently in. No help there... no dinging her credit at this point since we never joined our finances (I know.. probably one of the big problems in our marriage was that we did not effectively discuss finances and lived financially as independant people responsible for certain bills each month and anything left over was gravy.. seemed to work for us.. but in the end I think it ultimately worked against us bigtime..)

She has however had at least 3 overdrafts at her bank in the last month.. I have a hard time believing she's actually going to get financing for a house.. heck, her bank turned her down for financing to get the Van in her name.

J,

Just real quick, I wanted to remind you, just because a WS says something doesn't make it so! WSs often make all kinds of GRANDIOSE plans,,,,it doesn't mean they are based in REALITY at all. In fact, they seldom are.

Hang in there! Keep fighting the good fight!

Thanks Bugsmom..

I know you've gone through a lot of these same things.. so I guess not getting a 2x4 from you this morning makes me feel a little better at least.

I don't doubt that she's really trying to do this. I do know for sure that she doesn't really think these kinds of things through logically even before the A.. But she -hates- being denied this sort of fantasy.. and if -if- that 25 year old kid has any sense about him he's having second thoughts about 'what the ****** am I getting into.. she wants to get a house with me after we've been together a month??'... I'm pretty sure based on some of the things he's said, that to him, my wife is just a pretty piece of a$$.. almost certainly not worth this kind of trouble..

I could be wrong though.. course I also can't fathom her co-worker friend enabling this with her son... I mean, her husband cheated on her a year ago.. how she can't see what is going on and apply the screws to her son is beyond me. If it were my kid I'd be doing everything in my power to influence him to run far, run fast from this.. In a way.. I almost feel sorry for the piece of excrement.. but in the next breath I almost want him to get what he deserves and gets left holding the bag on a 80K house with his 'swing shift road construction' gig.. it'd almost be justice.. short of leprosy that is..

Ok.. almost a whole day.. no 2x4's yet.. but no insights on some of the talk/fogtalk with the WW.

Should I even -try- to talk to her at this point? Seemed like we made some progress.. but then again I'm thinking she just took away the 'he's an arrogant ****** and there's no way things will ever work out' from it all.. still.. there were cracks in the wall she threw up when she walked out.. I almost feel like the resolve is slipping.. not mine, hers.. maybe I should just step back for a while.. keep working on getting my son and see how it plays out.

James:

Are you being the safe place for her?

She thought you were being arrogant because you didn't call her a "cheating piece of [censored]." Which is what she expected.

Good Job.

Keep it up.

And she wants to buy a house with the other guy.

Well think about it. Must be alot of fun living in that house now isn't it?

After a month she wants to move out. She lived with you for 4 years, so, you were MUCH BETTER...

Provide the alternative. The happy alternative.

Yes, she only remembers the "bad Times"

But, you can show her that you are BETTER.

OK?

LG

No.

There's no point. And the long emails/letters--I wrote them, too, but there's no point. Write them for yourself if you need to, but then put them in a drawer or burn them or whatever. She can't hear what you're trying to say from you or probably anyone else. All you can do is LB--give her the opportunity to nitpick out some DJ that she can use against you (in her own mind, if nothing else).


This is your reality. This is what took me so long to process and made me miserable.

Are you in Plan B yet? I think you should be.

And remember, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

Since you seem 2 need a 2x4, I'll get out my old doubly-laminated ebony 2x4 and thwack you upside the haid...

Look. I don't know much of your sitch, just that you seem 2 be having a lot of conversations with the alien of late - the alien who's out 2 take your son away from you - and you're giving her the ammunition she needs!


No, you should not even -try- 2 talk 2 her at this point.


Yes, you should just step back for a while. Like, a PLAN B while! And make sure that you "work" on getting your son with your lawyer or some intermediary. Don't talk 2 her.

-ol' 2long

FORE!!!!

Mind if I play through??? I don't have a 2x4 but I do have a wedge in my hand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I wanted to say "What 2L said", he's right, back off.

Do your talking to your lawyer IF you get one that is good and responsive. I am not so sure about the one you have now. As for the fog, let her look. She cannot buy anything until you are divorced OR you will have to sign with her, not likely I am thinking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Document, get bills from daycare, do the whole thing and play to win. You win your family back, OR you win more time with your S and the losing part she will take care of.

You have made your points, you have told her the door is open. Now leave the door open but get to work with the lawyer. With apologies to Mr. W and others, nothing throws water on a good fantasy party like communications from someone's lawyer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

LG - I'm trying to be the safe place for her.. I thought maybe we could try to negotiate with eachother a more amicable agreement about our son without dragging him through the courts. Pretty nieve of me to think she'd actually care about what he's going through enough to look past the child support check she's going to need to pay on a mortgage... She's pretty bent right now. Heh.. and you're probably right.. the last few times we talked before that I kept hitting my head against the affair and made some pretty nasty AO's... She got her's out the other night though.. I'm actually kind of glad she vented to me.. of course she sees everything as me blaming her.. I simply explained that I'm not absolving myself for the problems in our marriage.. but to end it, and put our children through this was not my choice.. it wasn't my choice to take them from their father and suddenly introduce a new guy in their lives.. maybe she was looking for anger in that and was trying to draw me out...

Of course.. I kind of look at it this way.. I was a pretty self confident person (what she sees as Arrogant A$$) when we met.. there's a funny story of the first night she came to one of my gigs in there that I may tell sometime.. was our first meeting.. so to recall it now is a little too painful and would probably trigger me at work if I think too much on it.. can't have that just now.

SDGuy - Thanks for coming and posting on my thread. What you've been through is truly inspirational to me. I'm not sure -I'm- ready yet to go to the dark place that is Plan B.. and I certainly don't want her to be able to show in court that I'm not the reasonable parent in this situation.

I remember reading about your attempts to negotiate and how you felt that it left you a little better off on the 'business' end of the D process. I guess I'm just trying that myself.. even though I know it hurt your Plan B. Guess I just keep thinking that if she and I can start talking again.. (which was one of the main problems in our marriage) that it might stir some feelings within her.. but I guess the Plan B veteran I've spent so much time reading about probably knows better.. thanks for the knock on the head. I'm not ready for Plan B.. but you're right.. I need to pull back and keep the cards close to my chest. No DJ's and SD's.. gotta stop LBing and let whatever seeds I may have planted take root. Need to stop thinking about her all the time and how much I love and miss her... Marathon, not a sprint.. I used to be a 500 meter swimmer in High School.. maybe that disciplined mentality is what I need to take into this.. course I'm sure you know with a D looming over everything.. things 'feel' sort of urgent.

2Long - Thanks for the thwack.. I really did need one.. and you're probably right. Just don't know if I'm ready for Plan B yet.. I didn't do a very good Plan A and I'm afraid that the bad taste left in her mouth is going to linger and keep getting processed through the crazy machine.. course I'm probably not helping things along very much having these long conversations and sending emails either.. I think I'll step back.. let her step up to the plate and take some swings if there's any real inclination there to continue conversing and trying to work on problems.. if I do engage, I'll keep my cool like the other night and let her do most, if not all of the talking.. I'll just listen.


JL - Wow.. heh, I guess that's a new way to approach being t'd off <G>. I think you're right and I am going to start communicating through my lawyer.. I know that'll set her off.

Mr. W is probably about the only lawyer other than mine that I want to hear from right now... heh.. good peoples.

Update from last night..

Picked DS up from daycare and joined DD at her Volleyball game. DSD did not come home on the bus to my house again, no suprise.. I miss her terribly though. WW did say however on the phone the other night that she's 1 grade away from honor roll according to her midterms.. this is great. Can't tell you how hard I worked with and how extremely proud I am of that little girl over the past 2 years trying to build solid study habits.. of course WW takes full credit for the last month.. go figure.

Transfer at 8:30PM went uneventfully.. WW waited outside while I got DS and his things together, hugged him tightly and told him that I'd see him next week (that's what sucks about all of this.. the weekends I don't get him I have to wait a whole week to see him again). She called from her Co-Worker's cellphone about 9 minutes later trying to light into me about feeding our DS because he said he was hungry when they pulled in to get food (at 8:40 at night!?!? gah we never fed our kids that late at home.. and it just tells me that they aren't eating together.. just living on the fly.. so irresponsible)... explained to her that he had a banana when he got home from daycare, half a bag of popcorn at DS's game, a cheeseburger at McD's afterwards where he got to play inside a little bit since it was rainy out, and ate almost a whole apple when we got home. She's nuts if she thinks I don't feed him... heck, I've been the only one of the two of us up to now who put food in his mouth other than this past month and when she was breastfeeding... the gall of that woman..

Otherwise.. had a good evening, had a pint of Guiness (trying to finish off the beer my brother and sister in law brought up from St.Louis on their recent 'beerfest' trip..) and read more of the Fathers Rights book that was recommended to me by MEDC.. good stuff in there for fathers who need it.. also going to finish up reading SAA and HNHN this weekend probably after dealing with the 30 page Discovery papers her lawyer sent over.. got to have those done and back to her by the 10th..


Busy weekend planned going over the 'business' side of the marriage I guess. I'm almost afraid of all the triggers and how angry I'm going to be going through the credit card statements... she's completely fiscally irresponsible.. and we've got mountains of debt to show for it... and you'd be right to thwock me upside the head again and ask why I never put my foot down...

been a doormat for too long... gotta get back to being -me-.

Jamesus, I haven't posted to you before. In fact, I just read your thread. IMHO, you are being way too easy on your WW AND your attorney. I've been in the legal field for a long time. (paralegal for 15+ years and now a legal secretary for the past two years) and I somewhat know how this works. Mr. W (along with some others) has given you some excellent advice.

It’s time to play hardball. Do you want your son back? The way things are going, you’re going to end up getting screwed big time. The longer you let your son stay in the environment he’s in, the harder it’s going to be to get him back. He is NOT in a healthy environment. Your WW placed him there but you’re allowing it to continue.

Get on the phone with your attorney and DEMAND that he seek an emergency hearing. Your attorney says that the child has to be in eminent danger. He is. The rule of thumb is “in the best interest of the child.” Document all your concerns in an affidavit to go with the emergency motion (i.e., where the child sleeps, who baths him, who drops him off, is he ever left alone with OM.) If your current attorney won’t do what you tell him to do (he DOES work for you) then get another attorney who will act. Your time is running out. You will be divorced soon. Existing temporary orders will be made permanent since… gee, dad never objected.

You didn’t press charges against the guy who assaulted you but you should have. It’s not to late to file a report. Include that report in your affidavit as an exhibit. That along with this man bathing your son should be enough for the judge to take this seriously and award you at least temporary custody.

Her calling you about not feeding your son is a red flag. With her also being in the legal field, she may be “building a case” against you and preparing to blindside you with it. Why do you think she’s looking for a house “all the sudden.” She’s up to something.

Get proactive man. Quit trying to reason with this woman. She's not a reasonable person.

Thanks..

Atty is out today (called earlier this morning).. We haven't even gotten a judge for the D or temp custody thing yet. My lawyer and hers can't seem to agree on one, and it's already gone out of the county... frustrating.

My Atty is doing the best he can with what I've provided him with. I've got a stack of stuff I need to take over there at this point, and finish the Discovery stuff this weekend. I -am- going for Temp custody of my son.. and yes, it's killing me that it's taking so long to get there, but I want to do this right.

I think my lawyer is the right guy.. had a talk with him last week and left encouraged that I am doing the right things..

But ultimately the last line in your post is the truth that I'm having a hard time swallowing... It's just that to stop trying with her feels like giving up hope..

I know that's not the case and SDGuy of all people can feel free to club me to death with a 2x4 for that, but it's how I -feel-... guess it's my own perception of reality. Maybe I need to read his posts about 'letting go' again.. those made sense to me.

Hard part is that it's only been a month.. conversation is one of her big EN's that I wasn't meeting, and now that she's talking... I keep thinking that it may be Plan A-ish.. but at the same time I wonder what she's really taking from the conversations and putting through the crazy machine.. I'm certainly receiving no encouragement that it's changing her resolve.. and of course we've been avoiding talking about the A.. which is really the problem NOW... not saying our marital problems weren't there, or are insignificant, or even that I'm not at least half responsible for them... but her perceptions are totally skewed... revisionist history... her door is closed... blah blah..

You guys are right.. I don't want to be resistant to what you guys are telling me.. I know you're trying to help, so I also know that you guys understand why every fiber of my being is screaming to try and be... nice.. even though my head knows that I have to make this as difficult as possible for her.

That's fine. You can be as nice to her as you need to be when you communicate. Let your attorney do the hard stuff. When she wants to discuss the divorce, custody, etc. you just respond with, "You know I don't want this so I'm not discussing any terms of the divorce with you any more. Let's let our attorneys deal with this."

You can continue to Plan A her without having to talk about the legal stuff. In fact, you are involved in a lawsuit. You should not be discussing ANYTHING about it with her. She is the opposition. She'll just use what you say against you. Especially anything you put in writing.

The stuff about the assault. Why do you think paralegal mom was on the phone to you the next day? She KNOWS it was assault. Just guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that paralegal mom is running this show... advising your wife... etc.

The whole point of MB is to "build marriages". It's hard to do when you're involved with drama everyday. What you can do is make yourself and your home a better choice whenever you get the chance.

Are you sure about the Judge thing? I’ve never heard of attorneys agreeing on a Judge. If venue was transferred to another court, isn’t there a Judge already assigned to that court. Are you sure you’re not talking about agreeing on a “mediator”?

You're not helping her financially other than the CS are you? If you are, stop it. You're only enabling her affair with wonderboy. My thoughts about him can't be written here. Let's just say he's a real prize if he's still living at home with mommy and screws his married girlfriend in their home. Sorry, but it is what it is. Says alot about his family as well, the fact that they allow it. And your son lives there???

I'm rooting for ya Jamesus. Praying for you too. I'm praying that God allows WW to fall and to fall hard.

Exactly.

James, your continued comfort with this attorney and your unwillingness to get your son back home NOW is going to hurt you...and by proxy, your child, in the long run. IMHO, you are playing the game exactly the way her lawyer and your WW would have it played. Each and every time you ALLOW your son to go to that place...YOU are telling the court that there is no danger there. IF there is...SURELY you would not have allowed it.

Now you have heard the same thing from a person with vast legal experience.

Every situation is different. That the SCQ was willing to negotiate directly with me is unusual, I think. I think she feels guilt and is trying to be as fair as possible--she never tried to get more than 50% custody. It was an angle for me to exploit, so I did. I don't see that opportunity in your situation, and attempting to create it where it doesn't exist is Definitely against your interests.

I wouldn't worry too much about how good your Plan A has or hasn't been. What you need to worry about most is not making it worse. Graycloud had some great thoughts about WW's--she has switched allegiances from you to the OM, and until that changes she probably *can't* see any of the good things that you do. One of the last things Jennifer told me is that if the SCQ comes back, it won't be because of anything that I do.

The situation that your WW is heading into is so stupid that you need to just let it play out. Listen to the people who have been urging you to get custody of your kids back. Start playing hard ball. Think about getting a new lawyer.

Toughen your resolve and start working at least a modified Plan B. I wouldn't give her the letter because she might use it against you in court (MrW had some great advice along these lines), but cut yourself off from the alien.


Read this every day. Every hour if you have to. YOU CAN'T FIX THIS.

Have you consulted with the Harleys? This is the most specific advice I'm comfortable giving--talk to them to get a firm plan.

Right on both counts guys...

Completely unreasonable.. going to have to keep telling myself that.. usually it comes out in the form of 'She's lost her $&$& mind.. what is she thinking?'... while I really can't worry about that too much right now.. you guys are right.. it's all about getting my son home with me where he belongs.

When I do talk with my lawyer tomorrow I'm not going to ask advice anymore.. it's time to act.. at the very least get some documentation in a letter (unenforcable I know) demanding no less than 50% time, and a statement that says that I am -very- uncomfortable with the OM spending any time alone with my son (IE him being left there instead of daycare and him taking my kid to daycare on the days he goes)

heh... doing better.

She sent the following email:

When can I expect you to have DSD's things together? She has been asking about her things and if you could have it all ready for me to pick up on Wedneday, I would really appreciate it.


My response:

Please specify what it is that she wants, and I'll be happy to put something together.


------------------

Guess we'll wait and see if she just says 'everything' which is a good indicator and I'll have documentation that she's cutting me off from DSD at that point.

I imagine she was looking for another long emotional email.. not going to feed the crazy machine anymore.. nuh uh.

Thanks to you guys for 'setting me straight'

TELL her in a email that you want your son back home.

Something like this...

Dear WW,

I am contacting you to inform you that I want our son back in his home. You can visit him and come back here any time that you like, but he is NOT to stay at the home of your affair partner or his parents. I am exceptionally uncomfortable about this situation on several fronts including the fact that you have removed our child from his home and have put him in the care of people that I do not even know. This results in my worrying about his well being and his safety.


James...maybe you should wait for a lawyer...but I see nothing wrong with this communication. Also, you can decide to not give him back the next time he comes to your house. remember that each time you do that...you are giving your seal of approval as to where he is going.

I'll run that past my lawyer tomorrow..

I'm not going to initiate any further contact with her without consulting him first.

James. this is my post and your reply from 20 days ago. 20 days. 1/18 of a year. Fight it out in the end James??? How much longer...months...a year...you are going to lose him if you do not act with a sense of extreme urgency.

When I spoke with you on the phone weeks ago, I advised you to go to the courthouse that very day...20 days James.

You need to maintain your resolve and do what is necessary...not be determined today and passive tomorrow. There is nothing more important in your life than this issue...you should be knocking on every door at the courthouse until you find someone to help you. Keep your resolve James...tell .... TELL your lawyer tomorrow that you want your child home immediately and to do everything to make that happen. If he redirects you...repeat yourself or tell him you will find another attorney that has his son's best interest at heart.

Message received.. loud and clear.

MEDC, writing her a letter like won't help anything. She'll just laugh and say, yeah, so what? If anything his LAWYER needs to put the gist of that into a motion requesting the return of the child and spelling out the reasons why (no feelings involved). They have temporary orders in place, a letter to her like this won't mean diddly-squat. They JUDGE needs to ORDER the child home but he won't unless someone (hint-hint) puts it in front of him to consider.

But I agree... your lawyer saying wait until the end to fight it out???!? Uh-uh. No way. You needed to get that ball rolling like yesterday.

There are no temporary orders -yet-...

As far as waiting till the end.. I've told my lawyer that won't work for me... and so we filed a counterclaim stating that we wanted primary physical custody during the course of the D.

That's the judge we're waiting on now.

My bad, I forgot you had a stipulated agreement. If I were you though I'd rescind that agreement and file a motion requesting temporary orders in your favor.

So are you waiting for "a" Judge to rule? Has a motion been made? Your counterclaim WOULD ask for custody but unless a motion's been made the Judge has nothing to rule on until the final hearing. Please explain the thing you said earlier about waiting for a judge. I don't get that.

PM...I am of the strong belief that he should not return the child to that house unless ordered by a court to do so. Right now she has no legal leverage to remove that child from his home. If I were called to the scene as a cop...no orders are in place...the child stays at his home.

My reasoning for the letter is NOT thinking she would abide by it...it would be a document that could later be introduced into the record which clearly displays his desire to have his son home with him. To date, his actions have indicated otherwise.

Okay, I see. You're right. It would create a record but at this point, he probably should run it by his attorney. And if he sends it, he'd need to send it certified AND regular mail to prove she received it. Otherwise, she'll just say what letter Judge?

The only legal leverage I see is the stipulated agreement. BUT... wasn't it made before he knew the whole story? It would be pretty bold to keep the child, especially since he's gone along this long. Police probably would be called and drama would ensue. But it also may be a way to force the issue in front of a judge. But it'd also be really traumatic for the child. I dunno.

Jamesus, sorry for the T/J.

Ok...

well to catch our legal eagle up.. we did squash the Stipulation in Lieu..

And we filed a motion for temporary custody.. that's what we're waiting on the judge for now.

This is as I understand things.. probably best to have my Lawyer even send this message to her lawyer.. I'm sure it'll be just as binding as her asking me to stop contacting her family, but at least there will be documentation.

[quote But it'd also be really traumatic for the child. I dunno.

Jamesus, sorry for the T/J. [/quote]

This is what I worry about too.. not just the legal aspect of it, but the damage it would do to my son emotionally.

And no.. don't be sorry for the T/J.. you're talking.. I'm listening.. I need to hear these things.. especially since the paralegal in -my- life is now working against me.

The police would NOT remove the child from his home.

Also, while I see a very temorary issue with the child...it sure beats sending him into unknown waters EVERY SINGLE DAY...IMO.

How was it squashed?

Okay, so your counterclaim asking for temporary custody during the pendacy of the divorce has to be ruled on. So does hers. If there are no temporary orders in place now, then I'm with MEDC. You have as much right to that child as she does.

However, if you were to withhold the child and the police were called. There's a risk that CPS would get involved. Based on my experience with CPS (my husband as a child, my nephew we took in, etc) I wouldn't invite them into anything. But that's just my POV.

Tough call. If you want to sit tight for now and leave things as they are, you should at the least be documenting everything that happens. I guarantee you she's doing the same. At the least I would be calling the court clerk myself asking if there's been a ruling or a hearing date set. Saves you the attorney's fees to have his paralegal do the same thing.

That may be true. I guess it depends on where he lives. In the big city, the police more than likely would shrug it off and claim it's a civil matter. In a smaller jurisdiction they might be more likely to get involved.

But MEDC, it may be a temporary issue the day it happens but what if she tries the same thing?

I think CPS should have been involved a long time ago...called by James to have that house checked out.

Also...James...please remember...every day that you wait you give her another day with which she is establishing a new routine which the courts are sometimes hesitant to break.

I get that she can try the same thing...BUT remember...SHE is removing him from his home...James is returning him home.
Hey...as far as I am concerned...getting a judge involved immediately is a great thing. I got my son back in a small jurisdiction that his mom had moved to. They granted me an emergency petition within an hour of my setting foot in the door. I told my story to a receptionist ...she walked me over to the appropriate person and an emergency hearing was issued...I hope it is a small jurisdiction. I told James weeks ago to just walk into the courthouse himself and he will find someone that would help him.

And the police have no authority get involved no matter the size of the jurisdiction...imagine the lawsuit if a cop facilitated removing a child from his home without a court order. I wouldn't want to be defending that cop.

MEDC, that is SO cool. I love cases that go the way they should (in other words, justice prevails). That's what I was talking about earlier, an emergency motion. Jamesus can even do it ex parte (without the other party there because it's an emergency) which is what you did. He would just need to wait until the next time he has cause to declare it's an emergency. (i.e., he finds out child was left alone with wonderboy.)

Jamesus, what WOULD it hurt to ask your attorney to try the same thing? Tell him you'll prepare the necessary affidavit. It's a standard document where you're swearing to the points you make in the affidavit and then you have it notarized. Once a Judge ruled, it'd be hard for her to undo it.

By the way, who's paying her legal fees?

Sorry I missed all this. I just scanned to catch up.

I just recently suggested this to another person off-line.

Seeing that there is NO temporary order in place. Then, at the least, you both have equal rights to custody of the children up until the court orders otherwise.

How do you achieve that???

Well...NOTHING gives her the right to dictate custody at this time. NOTHING. YOU could actually keep the kids 100% of the time (though you'd likely be destroyed in court for doing so...despite having very legitimate reasons for doing so). I'm not completely with MDEC here. Fathers that run around making claims of crazy abusive mothers (even if they are they won't seem so in court) usually get screwed in the end. The court won't trust a father that does a ton of legal manuevering and game playing with the children...especially at this point where James has already allowed the children there so much. A big bold move of absconding the kid permanently will be seen badly...IMO.

However, since you each have equal rights and it will be impossible for your wife to actually come to an agreement for a 50-50 split (being careful to document that she won't agree) then YOU simply dictate your own plan.

Your own plan will be however many days SHE keeps your son...you, in return...will get an equal number of days with your son. She keeps them 5 days...you get them 5. Her 2..then you 2.

You've got to make this plan work. If you need help picking your son up at daycare or school...get it. Do not rely on her at all to help you with YOUR days. Of course, you will always be available to help her on her days and document the same. Eventually, she'll want help.

Now...she will go nuts. This is GOOD. You want HER to seem a completely irresponsible and untrustworthy co-parent that the court should not trust with the best interests of the kids. You remain calm. If she withholds the kids for a really long time that will just add days to YOUR custody when she does wisen up (via her attorney who will disapprove of her withholding ALL custody from you) and deliver the boy to you. IF she tries to circumvent YOUR days ...she will HAVE to steal the kid...by kidnapping him from daycare or whatever on days your son believes YOU will be getting him. This will document out very well for you if she pulls stunts to TAKE the kids back behind your back.

Plus...this doesn't require legal action. You MAY even choose to delay court proceedings to give yourself a chance to document during this 50-50 period to show:

1. You can handle 50-50
2. You should get MORE than 50-50

In time you make 50-50 the starting point in the whole custody battle. Right now...it's you getting screwed with every other weekend and wednesdays. Standard father visitation. At best you'll get 50-50...but that's even a long shot.

Take action. She has no more right than you to dictate custody right this moment.

Mr. Wondering

Oh yea...

Any "agreement" you have to date...verbal or otherwise you must firmly assert as based upon false pretenses and thus VOID.

YOU THOUGHT...she was moving in with a co-worker. You had NO IDEA her son was the OM and that she'd be living, with your son...with a paramour (an illicit lover).

You stand firm that you were duped and that agreement is NOT binding upon you.

She's perfectly within her rights to show it to the judge at the temp custody hearing ...if she does have something in writing...but until the judge orders otherwise it's equal time for both of you....PERIOD.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - If she becomes amenable to then negotiate. Great. She's then agreeing to throw away any prior agreement and negotiate again...with all the new facts. Then...maybe you agree to something like 4 days...4 days which necessarily rotates weekends and makes things more difficult for her. Again...YOU handle all your time with the kids. Absolutely do not rely on her for anything. Demonstrate you can handle it.

Ok.. lots to catch up on.. I'll try to answer all the questions.

PM: As I understand it (and honestly I'm no legal eagle but have been doing a lot of reading trying to understand the process) we have withdrawn our agreement to the Stipulation in Lieu of Provisional Orders (it had not yet been filed with the court when we put a stop to it), and filed paperwork requesting temporary custody of my son.

As for her legal fees, her lawyer is working for her for free according to her, she's doing all the paperwork and her boss is pretty much just signing her name to it.

MEDC: Should be talking to my lawyer today.. I'm going to see where he is at on this, and if it looks like we're going to be protracting this out to get this in front of a judge, I'm going to tell him we need to push for an emergency hearing. I -know- he's being left in the care of the OM in the mornings because the OM is the one who has been signing him in at daycare. If that's enough to get an emergency custody.. then I should be golden.

Mr. W: Thank you so much for the excellent advice.. she's stated that she will -not- agree to a 50/50 parenting time share. Basically denying me any additional time with my son other than every Wednesday and every other weekend.

I'm interested though in the notion you spoke of in dictating my own plan. Essentially have my lawyer send something over to her lawyers office stating my terms? As for picking him up and dropping him off at daycare I shouldn't need any help at all with that. I'm more than capable of getting him there and picking him up myself.. every day.

James

Morning James!

I am going to stay out of the legal/custody discussion right now. I think you are getting good input there.

I want to ask about YOU. How are YOU? I know it becomes all encompassing dealing with the legal stuff, worrying about your DS. It is easy to lose sight of the importance of taking care of yourself.

Simple things like, are you eating properly? Are you sleeping enough? What are you doing to take care of yourself physically and emotionally. Who is your support system?

ALL of those things are very important - if you aren't taking care of YOU, then you aren't going to be giving your DS the best of you. Just be aware of those things, OK?

Have a good day & keep us posted!

Thanks for the post Bugs.. I kinda left some of where I'm at in your post, but I'll try and be more direct in my answer here.

I'm getting to a point where I'm able to 'let go' of what has been an overwhelming desire to have my W back. I'm at a point where I do realize that nothing I can say will change things for her, and that if she does ultimately come back, it will have to be for her. The truth of the matter is that -many- things in our marriage will have to change for the both of us, and I honestly believe that she doesn't have it in her to put in the monumental effort it would take for us to make things anywhere close to right again. I think I've finally accepted that... and with that the realization that I -must- move on... for me, and for my DS and DD.

I've also come to the understanding that I have lost my DSD.. at least for the time being. Perhaps one day when she is ready she will seek me out. I hurt for her, I pray for her and I give it to God because that's all I can do. I do the same for my WW, and my W. I hope and pray that she finds peace and happiness, regardless of the outcome of our marriage. I pray that she finds it in her to be a good mom instead of such a thoughtless, selfish person that she has become. Unfortunately she has always been selfish and thoughtless.. I don't see that changing anytime soon. So I give it to God.. there's nothing I can do about that.

I'm sleeping well.. Stayed up late last night on the phone with DSD's family on her father's side. Making sure my ducks are in a row for character witnesses, people who can help me prove her previous parental alienation and the pattern she followed with her previous D. It did a lot to strengthen my resolve, and to remind me that this is not the first time she has completely destroyed a good man's life, and ripped his child out of his arms.

I honestly believe she's got problems.. she needs IC in a bad way, but her pride I doubt would allow it. In her eyes, she's never in the wrong.

I think I have to let go.. and I'm starting to think I need to move on. To be honest with you Bugs.. I don't know that I -can- take her back.. especially if I get my son. I don't know that I can allow her the opportunity to do this all over again.. my kids are too important to me.

I'm doing pretty good taking care of me. I'll admit that I'm probably not eating as much as I ought to. I'm down 30lbs from the weight I was at when she left just over a month ago. I know that's not totally healthy, but to be honest with you it's 30lbs I could have afforded to lose. I'm working on quitting smoking though I have my doubts about my resolve with all this stress in my life, and I'm working out as a way to relieve my frustration and anger.. so as you can probably guess I've been working out a lot lately. May actually have to back off some because I'm constantly sore now.

As far as taking care of myself emotionally, I've been playing my guitar and writing music every night. It helps to get some of these thoughts artistically out of my system. It helps a lot actually. My mom and my DD have been my biggest supporters. I call my brother a lot on the phone as he lives about 13 hours away... and he's been helping me too.

Learned a song I didn't know before last weekend.. and I cry each time I sing it.. but I think it's good to get that out too.

Matchbox 20 - Hang
-------------------
She grabs her magazine
She takes her things and she goes
She leaves the pictures hanging on the wall
And she burns all her notes
And she knows
She's been here too few years
To feel this old.

He smokes his cigarette
He stays outside till it's gone
If anybody ever had a heart
Well he wouldn't be alone
And he knows
She's been here too few years
To be gone

And we always say
It would be good to go away
Someday
But if nothings there to make things change
If it's the same to you I'll just hang

The trouble understand
She's got reasons he don't
Funny how I couldn't see at all
Until she grabbed up her coat
And she goes
She's been here too few years
To take it all in stride
But still it's much too long
To let her go

And we always say
It would be good to go away
Someday
But if nothing's there to make things change
If it's the same to you I'll just hang
If it's the same to you I'll always hang and I
Always say
It would be good to go away
Someday
But if there's nothing there to ease this pain
And if there's nothing there to cease this aching
And if there's nothing there to make things change
If it's the same to you I'll just hang.

Also... been going back to one of my old favorites that I used to sing and play in my dorm room at college..

Blind Melon - Change
--------------------
I don't feel the sun coming out today
Stayin in, it's gonna find another way
As I sit here in this misery
I don't think I'll ever know Lord
Or see the sun from here

Oh, as I fade away
They'll all look at me and say
Hey look at him
How does he live that way
That's ok
They're just afraid of change

When you feel life ain't worth livin
You've got to take a look around
And lift your head to the sky
And when your deepest thoughts are broken
Keep on dreamin boy
'cause when you stop dreamin
It's time to die

And as we all cast thoughts on tomorrow
In some ways we'll work
In other ways we'll play
But I know we can't all stay here forever
That's why I'll write my words
On the face of Today
And then I'll paint it

Oh, as I fade away
They'll all look at me and say
Hey look at him
Where he is these days
Life is hard
You have to change
Life is hard
You have to change

by far one of my favorites from one of my favorite bands. Learning to play and sing that one has helped me through many a dark hour in my life.

J, didn't you say that your DSS stated that they slept in the same room but that it was ok since everyone had on pajamas? If I am correct on this recollection, wouldn't this be some sort of recourse for you? And IF you had filed a report on the Grandpa-pa smacking your sunglasses off, maybe that would give you grounds for removal? maybe you can still file something on that?

It's war, buddy and so far she's taking all the prisoners.

No.. the kids (DS and DSD) are sleeping with her co-worker's 12 year old son in his bedroom. At least that's how I understand it. DSD however did observe that OM is sleeping in the bedroom with mommmy.. but assured me that everything was 'ok' because they had their pajamas on.


I'm inclined to agree about the assault thing.. still no love from my lawyer.. office opens in 30 minutes though.. I'll be on the phone.

Just ignore her. She has no more right to dictate custody than you. If she won't agree to a 50-50 agreement impose it as the fall back plan since you know she won't be reasonable. The beauty of my plan is that the only way she can beat it is to deny you ALL custody or run around kidnapping her own children (of course, it's not really kinapping so don't call the cops...just document it and it will make her look horrible in court).


You really aren't dictating yourself. You, through your attorney, are merely saying SHE can't dictate and/or ignoring HER dictating anything. You clearly state you are open to any 50-50 agreement she can think of and be sure to throw in you'd like to negotiate the holidays also. Put in that you'd like to see DSD (and offer time with your daughter which within negotiations you can take away if she refuses to protect daughter from OM which she won't) but the letter you want to make visits with your DD seem doable because YOU are the reasonable looking solely out to support the kids through this difficult time.

You are not dictating 50-50
You are not dictating 50-50.

It is merely what is fair and in the best interests of the kids, instead of fighting over them, to agree to 50-50 in lieu of any court order. It is soooo fair that starting today, absent or until she agrees to some other 50-50 mutually acceptable agreement...you are going to henceforth PRESUME that for each day she keeps the kids you get a day. She keeps them 4 days...you get 4 days.

I hope this makes sense and do pass it by your attorney. It may be something better stated firmly by YOU in an email, with your attorney's advice, to support your never ending document war to demonstrate your reasonableness, willingness, desire, calmness and ability to coparent ALL these children.

Mr. Wondering

I'll see what he says when I talk to him about it this morning.

from a legal standpoint, I like Mr. W's suggestion...
as a father, I find it not so helpful...

let me explain...
in the short term...you have great concern for your child. Once again, you will be giving your seal of approval for your son to be staying in an environment that you feel is a danger to your child. Also, I believe that once you enforce the equal time issue that one of two things will happen...she will deny you all access to him (which will go against her in court...but it puts your son out of reach until a settlement is reached)...or when you get to court you will have a hard time arguing that your kid should be in his home full time if YOU were willing to let him be there now.
I will defer to Mr. W with most areas of law...after all, he is an attorney. I have a great handle on father's rights having walked these roads myself and just see your allowing the child over there at all as a problem. There is no need for James to be accepting of any co-parenting situation that puts his child in harms way...mentally or physically.

Sorry, I've still got a problem with a 12 yr old in the same room with both those kids. He's startin to get hormones. I'm just trying to be real here, and you know a child is more likely to be abused when their mom carries on this lifestyle. You know nothing about this kid other than his Dad is an ogre, you don't know what he has been thru and what he will emulate. I think childrens services need to check out these sleeping arrangements. Do they each have a bed?

MDEC,

I agree it sucks and you are very right. But all things considered (including the poster), I just don't think it can be pulled off without making him look bad.

Legally speaking...IMO...he's screwed if he runs around screaming she's unfit and the place is unfit. I know it is...you know it is but that doesn't help him in court. He's got to document like crazy and allow the court to do it's job and make such assesment. He'll be punished for preempting their authority. Until such time, he's got to get at least 50-50 parenting time.

I was just thinking this over and I truly believe that my suggested plan above should be sent by you in the form of an email. One of your advantages is that they think they are smarter than you...legally. Therefore, your email may illicit unwise emotional responses and anger as opposed to an attorney letter which will be met with serious consideration and gamemanship. Plus...you want the days to start counting today...Friday. That makes next wednesday...your next visitation day a FIVE night visitation. You get your son Wednesday...through Sunday. This first visitation I wouldn't necessarily place him in daycare where she can merely "kidnap" him back. IF possible take two days off and take a road trip or take him for a visit to your mom's or grandma's. If you have to work leave him with a family member versus daycare. We are only talking two days but you want to establish your rights to those days and show you at least handled it well. You want HER going nuts...filing emergency motions and maybe even her and her friends will do something really irrational like come to your home (have your cell phone handy and call the cops immediately).

Also...Wednesday she may attempt to make you PROMISE to return your son immediately despite what the letter/email said. I encourage you to AGREE. Make her believe you will give your son back...whatever she wants...to get your son in your custody. Immediately thereafter send an email detailing her attempts to blackmail...how harmful that is to do in front of your son...how you refuse to honor or keep promises given under duress and blackmail...how you will keep the boy 5 days just as you told her in your email last week barring a court order to the contrary and barring a mutually acceptable 50-50 temporary agreement you guys come up with for this time preceeding court. Be VERY calm and very rational.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I, too, was very uptight about a 12 year boy sharing a room with a 8 year old step sister.

Again, I have a gut feeling that paralegal friend is running this show. The attorney that's signing off on this stuff needs to be accountable. If your attorney starts this negotiating with her "attorney" it will mean that the attorney signing the paperwork will have to really play ball. Wonder if he or she will be so willing to donate his or her time then?

I agree with Mr. W. The more agreeable you appear, the better for you but I also agree with the others that your child is NOT in a good environment. Perhaps your attorney should bring up his concerns with her "attorney" about THAT and see where it goes. The fact that you're not allowed to go where your child lives is just wrong. You have the right to SEE or inspect the environment that he's in at any time.

I disagree and have never said anything about running around saying she is unfit. I respect the role the attorney's play in legal matters...but I will say that when it comes to father's rights...they have in the past been as much of an impediment as anything. I doubt for one moment that his lawyer would be so passive if James were the BW....and that plays into the weakness of the system..rather than fighting to change it. had I listened to my attorney in the past...I would have the every other weekend deal that most fathers get screwed with. It's easy...doesn't require much work on their part...and the courts are all too happy to go along with it.


CPS should be called to at a minimum...to check out the place....otherwise something that can't be fixed could happen while everyone is standing around twiddling their collective thumbs.

I agree with Mr. W on how he should handle getting his child for the visit. I just disagree that the child should go back...and do not see James being "punished" for protecting his child.

James...you are getting sound legal advice from Mr. W. I will tell you I took a radically different approach that resulted in full custody. Also....many father's rights experts would suggest a more aggressive approach to get your child home. But his advice is sound...I just happen to disagree with it.

Atty has been in court all morning.

Still waiting on a call back.

Am very torn between the two advices.. I think what I will do is to have my Atty send the 50/50 demand to her lawyer.

This ought to accomplish the same sorts of things, as I figure her lawyer -is- more involved here than just signing off documents.

I agree that her paralegal friend is probably helping to run the show.. heck.. I figure her paralegal friend pretty much guided my WW right into her sons arms..

This is completely rediculous... I'm getting -very- frustrated with my lawyer at this point.. MEDC is right, it's been 20 days and we don't even have a judge yet.. it's time to get on with this.

Ok... well, lawyer decided to see me immediately when I walked into his office.

Gave him a copy of the visitation logs I've been keeping so far, and discussed with him what I want.

He is sending the message to her lawyer regarding what he will term 'expanded visitation' and we'll see just how much she's willing to give I suppose.

Also, the lawyers have settled on a judge that is not on their current panel. He says that they are both doing venue changes and striking until they get him. My lawyer is confident from his previous experiences that he will be the right judge for me.

I also got the impression that given his relationship with her lawyer's father that he's been working on diplomatically exerting his 'elder statesman' type influence to get this going. He says he understands my urgency, but this is really the best way to handle this in my state. Apparently the courts have a history of denying 50/50 visitation unless the parents actually settle on it. They like to drive towards that in settlement, but if a judge has to make a judgement he will rule in favor of one parent and against the other. The notion, my lawyer explained is that it prevents more continuing lawsuits than it causes that way, and the judges don't like seeing kids grow up in their courtrooms. Given that light.. I'm inclined to agree.

Looks like things are going to start moving just as soon as they can get this judge on a panel. Apparently our two lawyers had a conversation about it again today while they were waiting their turns in court this morning. Apparently Friday is a big court day for our town.

James,

My only comment on the legal haggling right now is that you will find that MOST of the work IS done in the hallways between the lawyers, NOT in the courtroom.

What are you plans for the weekend?

Heh.. you're absolutely right there. Add to that my lawyer has some of that 'elder statesman' influence over hers it seems. All the lawyers in this town know eachother well, and one of the reasons I picked this particular guy is because he does have a good working relationship with her lawyer. When things were going to be 'amicable' I thought it'd work to my advantage to have a cooperative lawyer as well. Now I think it'll still be advantageous as her lawyer respects my guy's judgement and has for a long time looked up to him.

Plans for the weekend: Today I'm going over to my moms house to make breakfast for her, my DD, and her stepsister (on her moms side).. biscuits and gravy, one of my specialties using some of those Budding Beef strips instead of sausage. Also making up some eggs with green peppers, onions, and cheese in. Should be a yummy breakfast. Getting ready to pack up the kids and go over there now as they get themselves out of their pj's and get cleaned up for the day.

Need to finish up my Interrogitory documentation today, and the Request for Production document gathering.. that's been rough, but I realize.. my WW came into this relationship with pretty much her daughter and the clothes on their backs.. but she's left with everything.. this material crap doesn't mean a thing to me.

Later today going to watch the Purdue(my school)vs Notre Dame (neighbors school) game with the neighbors and let the girls play with their kids for a bit. Should be a good time, the neighbor and I usually take turns on the grill and keep the Michigan Hot Dogs coming (for some reason those dogs he gets from Michigan taste -so- much better than your standard frank) and we're going to do up some ribs and chicken in the smoker.

Sunday I'm going to be packing up DSD's things as my WW has asked for -all- her things by Wednesday. I'm sure I'll trigger hardcore on that.. it kills me the thought that DSD won't be coming back.. heck.. crying right now as I think about it.. I love that little girl so much.. to even think that my WW has poisoned her to hate me now just rips me to shreds.. I have this picture of her she gave me for Fathers Day 2005.. it says on the frame 'Anyone can be a Father, but it takes someone special to be a Dad. Love DSD' I think it's probably the most special 'thing' I'll have left of her. God I love my little T-bug... I miss her so much..

*breathe.. live in the moment.. focus on now.. worry about what you can worry about..*

Ok... after that on Sunday I'm going to go hang out with some friends and play some music and watch Indy stomp Denver in the afternoon..

That's about it I think.. at least what I have planned to do.

Hope your weekend goes well.

((((Bugs))))

James:

Here comes the 2x4.

Its really great that your attorney is the "elder statesman" to your WW's.

That clubly little atmoshpere will insure that your Divorce, visitaion, and support arrangements will work out, and your fee will be minimized and every one can have drinks afterward at the club.

While you pay CS, get the every wednesday, and every other weekend visitation, lose access to your SD and feel that you have been screwed over every step of the way.

But, hey, the club never heard a voice raised in anger, did it?

You need to hire a different lawyer. One from out of your town, who has no problem making noise in the club. Because that is what you need.

Lawyer's have a reputation of being sharks, but they are trained to get to a compromise and agreement.

And that agreement is alot easier to get to if all you do is "accept" what the WW wants. And what the "state" allows.

I get hired all the time by people from out side of my town, for the specific purpose of I am out of town, and can ask difficult questions and argue the tough stuff. Because I'm not having drinks at the club afterward......

Understand the dynamics here.

Your attorney IS WORKING for you. He WORKING towards AGREEMENT. With a minimum of FUSS.

IS that what you want? IF yes, then you don't need to duck the 2x4.

IF NO, then take the 2x4 from me and start using it on your Attorney, or even better, the new one, to GET WHAT YOU WANT.

It is easier for us to sit here and TELL YOU WHAT TO DO. We are not on the ground in your shoes.

You are gettting good advice. It may seem contradictory, it might seem harsh, it migh not seem to be right in your sitch. If all you do is go to your attorney with more steel in your backbone, and with firmness in your voice, that is great.

However, you could do better.

But be strong. You DO NOT have to settle for what the "state" usually allows....

Just my .02

LG

My understanding of small town legal works is that out of town lawyers get clobbered.

Unfortunately, the small town judges are part of the small town legal club. They don't like outsiders coming in a making things difficult which is precisely what Jamesus will be doing.

I don't like this attorney sending off a letter to WW and her attorney trying to see if they will change custody right now pending a hearing.

Of course, I'm more fond of my idea...negotiate a 50-50 arrangement for now and if she won't negotiate then so be it...your fall back position is still 50-50 and you will merely take it and allow her to go nuts with the legal manuevering and what not.

There is no..."let's see what WW will give me"

As far as the Purdue thing.

I'm very sorry,

Mr. Wondering (IU grad)

I like your idea too Mr. W.. my lawyer though also likes to document. So essentially that's what we're doing here.

As far as the IU vs Purdue thing.. I suppose I can overlook that in light of the excellent advice you're giving <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LG - I appreciate your insight, as well as MEDC's and I understand the notion of being very aggressive, however I think in my situation, and having lived or been connected to this town for 31 years I'm more comfortable having someone who's swam in this pond for a while working with the judges who swim in the same waters. He's won for dads in front of the judge he and her lawyer agreed on. So he knows what this judge looks for and can help me to highlight those points. I know I've complained a lot about him so far, but with his experience in front of this judge I think I'm with the right guy. He's doing what I ask him to at this point, and I can ill afford right now to change horses. I'm going to see how this works out, and just make sure my little rubber ducks are all lined up.

Been a rough weekend so far.. pretty much finished with the interrogatory.. almost 30 pages of me trying to dig through the last 4 years of my life.

Gotta make sure I have all of my documentation together or at least know what I need to get for Monday. I've got to have it all back to the ice queen and her lawyer on the 10th.

Hardest thing though is her asking me to pack up all of DSD's things... I think I'm just going to tell her that I'm going to need more time to get it all together with boxes and such for it all... and that I'll let her know when I get it done.. this is so heart wrenching to think about not ever seeing my little angel again.. I know she's doing this to try to hurt me, but it's my little girl that's going to get hurt in all of this.. and for what? To what ends? That's the part that bothers me about all of this.

J

I hope your attorney advised you to be as vague and yet direct as possible on your interrogatory answers.

Typically, even I try to answer each question to exhaustively. (I am always disturbed with how vague and meaningless the answers to my interrogatories come back)

Don't.

Just answer them.

Now that you've got everything together...chop it down to just the necessary information needed to answer the questions without to much explanation.

As far as DSD's stuff...I would return it in a slow trickle. I'd also consider hiding a short note in each box of stuff as a message to DSD that you are still thinking of her. Careful not to say anything about the situation as the notes could somehow be used against you in the future. My guess is they would say you are harming the child by communicating "lies" to her.

Mr. Wondering

edited to add: Be careful with the DSD...as this fight continues and God forbid you divorce...DSD could...COULD...end up your adversary in this mess. Your WW is in position to corrupt and influence her against you. Over the years this could become deeply embedded and DSD herself could end up being a horrible influence and liar to your son. DSD isn't old enough to understand your end of the upcoming battle...she only sees you "fighting" her mom in court and "embarassing" her with exposure. Her confusion about the situation and the exploitation of such confusion by WW may ultimately take DSD's heart from you for a long time. Be prepared. They may even use DSD to spy on you.

James,

Hang in there. I wish I had great answers for you, but frankly, I don't.



Yes, it IS your daughter that is being hurt here, and not having the ability to "do" anything in her regard is likely the worst part of the sitch for you. I understand.

Mr. W's suggestion of giving her things back slowly and putting in those notes is GREAT! Make them special, "Daddy loves you ALWAYS" messages. Key into anything that was special between the 2 of you. She will keep those for when she misses you, for when she is lonely or confused, and she will have them forever. Nothing WW does can take that away from you. Her knowing you love her is the BEST you can give her.

Most WS's see little to none of the damage they are bringing on their children while they are in the height of their A's. Nothing and no one else matters to them. They twist and justify their EVERY action. I gave up trying to understand, but at times it STILL drives me crazy.

Be strong. Be patient with yourself. I think you are doing an outstanding job of handling all of this.

Good luck tomorrow.

{{{JAMES}}}}

I know she's doing this to try to hurt me

No, she isn't. It's worse than that. Your suffering is incidental.

GC

What do you mean by this?

I know.. this is something that I'm struggling with, thinking it might almost be a good thing from a legal standpoint that she's no longer allowing me any contact with her. But man.. outside of looking at it legally.. this is wrong on so many levels.. and in so many ways.

Bugsmom

I keep wishing for that magic thing to fix everything.

I know it won't come.

I think the AD part of the smoking cessation drugs are working though. The dips in the rollercoaster didn't seem quite so bad yesterday.. so maybe that's a plus.

I'll drop a few notes and a few items in with her things.. probably only do a box or two for Wednesday.. probably be about all I can handle.. I can't even begin to tell you how much this is ripping me apart.

Well.. sent the following to the alien:

You'll need to come to our church to pick up DS at 8:30 on Wednesday.

Just show up a few minutes early if you don't want to have to go in, I completely understand why you wouldn't feel comfortable about discussing our marriage and its current problems with a priest, however I'm going to keep my 8:30 appointment with Father Ted.

I won't have DSD's things ready for Wednesday, didn't have time to get to it this weekend. I'll let you know when I get around to it. If she has any specific things that she feels she needs, let me know and I can maybe put a few essential things together. Don't have the boxes for much else just yet.
-------------------------------------------

Her reply:

I will not go to the church to pick up DS. If you have to be there at 8:30 PM let me know what time you need to leave your house and I will pick DS up fifteen minutes prior to the time you leave. There is nothing that I feel I need to speak with a priest about.

With regard to DSD's things, you have 48 hours to get all of her things together. If you do not have her things by Wednesday, we will handle this matter in Court. I have documented this and, if I have to, will use this as an exhibit in Court.


-----------------------------------------

Mr. W and others... any insights here?

Only response sent so far is:

I've rescheduled with Father Ted, you can pick up DS at 8:30 at my address.

What is the agreed upon time for her to pick up your son? Is the Church out of the way for her? Sounds like she is being difficult, but I think you did the right thing by agreeing to let her get him from your house as agreed upon.

James,

Don't let her bully you! Stop accomodating her. Is there a current court order that she HAS to pick up DS at your house? If not, to heck with her.

Let her "document" and use as "exhibits in court". She will use those words over and over and over to get her way if you ALLOW it.

Regarding DSD's things,,,,,,why do you need to box them up for her? How about she let's DSD come over and you will help DSD box it all up.

You don't have to comply with any 48 hour time limit. Give a reasonable alternative that works for YOU. Let her document THAT as well.

Calm, cool, collected responses. YOU show the ultimate in being reasonable in your communications so that when ready by ANY 3rd party, it will be easy to see.

She is MAD and she is SCARED so she is lashing out at you. Trying to make you the Bad guy. Stand tall. Put on your armor!! Believe me, I am oh so familiar with THIS WS tactic.

ABSOLUTELY she knows that SHE needs to talk to a priest. She needs to be down on her knees begging for forgiveness and help. She KNOWs that. THAT is why she is SO ANGRY right now. Believe me, any time a WS is faced with anything that makes them possibly face the truth of their actions, the nastiness really kicks in.

You get to remain calm, cool & collected. Stand on the side of what you know is right for you, for your kids and for your M. Let her rail at the world and at you. Remain calm. Be that lighthouse that shines through the FOG of A-land.


Hang in there!!

Yeah, let her document it. So you've been busy? You're not refusing to give her the stuff just haven't been able to get it together. As far as I know (and Mr. W can correct me) there's nothing illegal in not having time to get stuff together.

Stop letting her bully you.

I find it incredibly cruel that she is taking DSD away from you. That's stooping very low, even for the stuff we read here at MB.

Perhaps take the sympathetic route.

I am sorry I have yet to box up DSD stuff for you to date. I really tried to get in there this weekend but found doing so far to emotional. I can't bear the thought of you taking her away from the only father she has ever known. I have loved her as my own her entire life and the loss of her equals the loss I feel when you left.

I find these threats especially cruel. I will get you her stuff as I promised...in my time. I'm not playing games here. I'd love to see her and have her come over to help me. I can't bear the thought of losing all contact with her. You're certainly within your legal rights to extract her from my life but no matter what you can't extract her from my heart.

I'll have a box for you Thursday or Friday.

[you could add...My daughter misses you too and I will not forbid her to see you. My sincere wish, as we each pursue our legal rights, with as much respect and civility as that process allows (it's not a picnic on this side either)...is that these children don't get caught in the crossfire. It's just not fair to them}.

Jamesus


Let her document that...and chew on it.

Mr. Wondering

Went Mr. W's route.. I like that approach.. it's very 'me'..

changed a few words here and there in the interest of not plagerizing(sp).. but the gist is the same. Mr. W.. you really nailed how I feel.

I can't thank all of you enough for your excellent advice and daily encouragement. I've never thought of myself as a 'needy' person.. but the validation and encouragement I've received here has gone a long way towards helping me get back on my feet.. dust myself off.. and get ready for the fight of my life.

My wife.. while in the throws of this affair is dead to me. All I have are my children.. I've always fought hard and beat the odds for the benefit of my family. She's chosen not to be part of that anymore.. so I can't worry for her.. I can't protect her from herself. I -can- protect my son and my daughter... and God willing, to some extent my little T-bug..

God grant me the strength.. give me the courage.. blanket me in your comfort and light when my will wavers.

James,

Mr W's suggestion was PERFECT! So glad you went with it! Anyone would be hard pressed to argue with that approach.

I completely understand what you are saying about the need for encouragement and support. It's hard to stay charged for "battle" so to speak. I felt and continue to feel the same way. The need for support is normal and I know we are all so thankful for what we get here.

Prayers for you and your family.

(((((((Bugs))))))

Thanks again for giving me a good pep up this morning. Your personal battles, I know leave you feeling drained so just know that I appreciate the strength you are lending me, and hopefully I can repay that in kind. You're doing so well with all that is going on for you, and while I haven't had much to add to your thread the last couple of days, you have been in my thoughts and prayers.

I have to say that this morning I woke up with a sense of optimism. Hope I'm not just setting myself up for a fall later today. I don't really have any expectations other than to have a good day at work, and that at least is entirely within my control.

Not going to lurk here all day today, but will check back from time to time to update and see if anyone has any suggestions, but going to start focusing on work again at work. Been falling behind a bit the last month and a half.. and I can't afford to lose the best job I've ever had.

Thanks to all of you again for helping me out.. your advice, even the bits I don't use, have inspired and built me up for this fight.

While not officially in Plan B.. I have been dark other than the emails you guys already know about since our phone conversation.. I think it's making things easier on me at least.. I don't have to worry about finding the real meaning in everything said and done.. and I find that I don't trigger those feelings of anguish quite so much. Plan B might just save my life... not sure I'm going to do the intermediary thing though.. if my LB dips too low I might have to, but for now I'll handle things with her via email.. she seems to like that route as well so it should work out.

James,



Good for YOU! I have been battling this feeling & situation with MY work for almost a year. Glad you are catching yourself early & pulling back into what you know you have to do. Well done!

For now, I'd say stick with the email as it seems to be working best for now. I like it because it gives you the TIME you need to formulate well thought out responses AND use the forum for input. Mr. W is on the mark with helping you there for sure!!

Have a Great day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

The alien makes contact again.. her response to last nights email:

I don’t appreciate the unneeded lecture (yet again) from you. Pay attention very carefully because I am going to tell you something I’ve told you numerous times before and apparently you haven't been paying attention or else I wouldn't have gotten this email. I am not trying to keep DSD from seeing you. She doesn’t want to see you and I am not going to force her to see you because that would do nothing but make her resent both you and me. She is not suffering, as a matter of fact she is doing really well both emotionally and physically. The only person who does have a choice or say in the matter of her seeing you is her. I have been talking to her and letting her know that you love her and miss her. Give her time. This is about her, not you. She needs time to get over the anger at you. If you can't respect that and have to blame me for "ripping her out of your life", then fine do so. But keep it to yourself, because I am tired of hearing about it.

As far as DSD’s belongings are concerned, I have asked you for the past three weeks to get her things together. Not because I want them, but because DSD wants them. I don’t need an 8 year old’s things. The only reason it is important to me is because it is important to her. Apparently you don’t feel the same way as you haven’t gotten around to it yet. You act like I wrote that because I just wanted to be mean. I am tired of going around in circles with you regarding DSD’s stuff. What I find completely unnecessary and exceptionally cruel is keeping DSD’s things from her, which is what you have done for three weeks.

I am not putting the kids in the middle of this situation. This matter is between you and me. No one else. That is why I am wondering how on earth I managed to get a phone call from DSD's grandmother right around the same time you wrote your email about this very same subject. ESP? Quit dragging other people into this. I know that they are family, but they have their own issues to deal with.

Why does she say that DSD is angry at you?

She said after the 10th (coincidentally when she found out I was going after custody of DS) that DSD overheard her animated phone conversation with me and asked her about it the next day. She says that she told DSD the 'truth'.. that if I got custody of DS, that she would only get to see her brother on Wednesdays and every other weekend.

She told me that Wednesday that DSD was mad at me for two reasons 1) I'm taking her brother away, and 2) I'm disrespecting her mother.

Keep in mind though that these are WW's words to me.. I've heard nothing from DSD, and have been denied contact every time I've asked to talk to her.

my response:

WW,

Nobody is trying to lecture you, I simply tried to give you an understanding of how and why this is so difficult for me.

I wasn't aware that you were looking to have -all- of DSD's things until your email on Friday. I've been asking each time you brought it up before then to give me a list of the things she wants, or to have her help me put what she wants to take together. A box or two of things is much easier to get together in a short timespan than to go through all of her things. I've to this point honored the document you signed when you picked up your things that the children can bring and take anything of theirs that they please.

That being said, I'll get you her things as quickly as I can.

As for DSD's GM, I did talk to her briefly last night to give her an update about what was going on. She decided on her own that she wanted to speak with you, not from any encouragement from me. Their concern, and mine at this point is for the children. I'm not involving anyone in our issues that doesn't have a genuine interest in the well being of our family. I don't, and won't apologize for keeping them up to date on what is going on. You're more than welcome, and I would encourage you to do the same. They have their own problems, but they also have great concern for our family because they are a part of it and want to help us both do what is right.

My email back to you had nothing to do with anything I talked about with DSD's GM apart from my having told her about the threats made in your previous email. My mind was on the subject, so I wrote you back so that we can avoid future threats and unnecessary litigation.


Please continue to give the children my love each day and let them know that I miss them both terribly.

Not sure what to think at this point. I'm sure she's gotten the email by now.. no response yet.

Guess that's not a bad thing. So much for going into today hoping not to lurk here or get hung up on WW.

I'll try again tomorrow I guess.. only 40 minutes left for today, but I did get two bug-fixes in for programs which is good. Helped pass quite a bit of time and made some people in the shop happy.

I dunno guys, the sheer amount of venom in her emails and in her eyes when she sees me, and such.. I just don't get why she has to act like this, when she's the one victimizing her family. Of course I should probably expect her to react this way any time she needs to take responsibility for something.

How do you respond to someone who always says you're lecturing them, or being a condescending a$$.. I'm not, I'm just staying calm and cool in the face of her anger.. I'm trying to have a reasonable intelligent exchange.

When does this part of it end? At what point can I stop reminding myself that it isn't my fault.. no matter what she says, I did not choose this. I did not tear my family apart.

With a smile. Ignore her personal comments. Only answer pertinent questions. Keep your comments impersonal as to her yet allow your love for your children to shine through in your writings and your conversations (since she's obviously building a record).

I'm trying my best to do just that..

I dunno.. it's so hard to get into these emails w/o LBing.

She can build all the record she wants for DSD's things.. but she's going to get the vast majority of it tomorrow.

I do have it ready for the most part.. completely killed me to do it but I do.

This just sucks.. one day she makes me this picture about how much she loves me and will miss me... and then the next day, after a 'talk' with her mom she doesn't want to see or talk to me.. so far.. for 23 days... 8 year olds don't -do- that..

Nobody is trying to lecture you, I simply tried to give you an understanding of how and why this is so difficult for me.

I find this level of engagement very troubling, and that goes for the previous communication also.

I wouldn't trust your WW with my feelings if I were you.

I feel you are stepping into a free fire zone when you communicate with her or give her explanations, and I don't like it.

I'd rather see you detach.

GC

James,

I am SO GLAD I could not post first thing after reading that ALIEN email! I was so angry for you!

Miss Meggy gave you great advice (she's really good at it)



This is what slayed me though,


As Pep would say EGG-ZACT-LEE - 8 year olds DON'T do that. WW is slanting things as SHE sees them. This is NOT your DSD talking, it's your WW ALIEN talking. Don't buy this load of bullshite.

We can all hear the conversation WW had with DSD after overhearing her on the phone (if that part is even true).

WW "Well DD, James is taking away your brother because he is so mean and selfish. We aren't going to get to see him hardly at all. I don't know why HE is being SO MEAN".

Where are all of the wood chippers?? This makes me SO ANGRY.

It's not unusual for the WS to twist partial truths into their own alien interpretation, which is what she is doing. Accusing YOU of all of the things of which SHE is guilty of doing.

Ck out Orchids posts about Reverse Babble. You need to either NOT respond to the Bullshite or be able to babble back at her - - - but not necessarily in email. As she is "keeping a record" stick with Meggy's advice on that.

{{{James}}}

Read your last sentence.

Why are you doing that? What do you hope to accomplish?

Graycloud is right--you'll just burn yourself up doing this. You can't reason with her. You could present the best arguments in the history of the world and they won't help because she is a fogged-out zombie.

Plus, you invite her to send you her Fogspeak, which is bound to be hurtful to you. Even when you can activate your Fog-Filter and know that it's Fog talking, you still hear the hurtful stuff that WS's spew, and it still has an effect.

Every time you feel an urge to contact her, ask yourself "Why am I doing this? What do I hope to achieve? and, most importantly, Will she listen to me?"

I'm not sure where you are in terms of plans (have you consulted with the Harleys?), but this kind of engagement will eat you up.

jamesus:

It's been a few pages since I read here, but you really still do need 2 get yourself under much better control here.

gc and others are right on the money. The simple answer 2 your questions about "how come she does this?" and "how come she feels like I'm lec2ring her or being condescending?" is 2 just stop all of it, because it doesn't matter why she does what she does, or says what she says. What matters is that talking 2 her is doing you a lot more harm than it is good, and she's like a fire that gets stoked every time you engage her.

If you keep your communication 2 the absolute minimum - which should only involve contacting your kids 2 say "yo" or exchanging them per the custody plan. If you can do THOSE things via an intermediary, I think you'll be in much better shape than you are now.

You'll be able 2 really go 2 work and concentrate on work if you stop posting draft emails, selecting your favorite edits, sending them off 2 the alien and then posting your complaints that she didn't like what she read.

You need plan B. Heck, I'm not even married 2 her and I need you 2 be in plan B! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, not really, necessarily. But seriously, if you can't keep it light and on-topic (kid-logistics only) when you have contact, then don't have contact.

-ol' 2long

Yeah... I slipped out of 180 and the interim Plan B.. haven't even made it a week without contacting the alien.

Sorta funny when you're accused of having crap communication and all you want to do then is communicate. I suppose irony abounds with WS's..

I haven't talked to the Harley's yet.. I put down Surviving an Affair and haven't even gotten to His Needs Her Needs yet. I've been doing interrogitories, requests for production and reading up on the Fathers Rights book MEDC directed me to.

I think you're right though.. and starting with the exchange tomorrow night I'll be dark, cordial but not conversational.

Think I should help her get DSD's things into her car when she comes, or just stand there waiting for her to get it done?

Best laugh I've had all day.. thanks for makin a guy smile before bed.

I think you need a plan and recommend consulting the Harleys. If not through the counseling center, then call the radio show.

SDGuy.. man, you know you're my Plan B hero. I guess that I'm still acting out of fear. Fear that if I go completely dark other than to deal with kid logistics that it'll just make things worse.

In my head I know the logic behind it, and I know it's what I need to do. I'm just having a hard time holding myself back from reaching out to her.

Do, or do not, there is no try.. Heh.. funny that a muppet is going to give me the logic I need to counter the statement I was about to make.

I'm going to contain myself tonight when she comes to pick up DS and DSD's stuff. It's going to be monumentally hard but I'll do it. I'll have to find a way to be cool, but not cold.. the old me (pre marriage) would not have any problems doing this.. maybe I can channel the old bachelor tonight. He was actually a pretty swell guy.. not too trusting though. Maybe he's what I need to embrace again.

Another day at work.. going to try and get more stuff done. Getting those 2 system requests resolved yesterday really made me feel good. Here's to hoping I can ding a few more of em out today.

I'll check back once in a while.. would still like to get opinions on whether or not I should help her move the massive amount of DSD's stuff from my garage into (probably) her co-worker/enabler friend's SUV.

Not-so-Super DarkJamesus

no...do not help her move that stuff.

James,

You are right in your thoughts on going to Plan B, either do or don't, there is no "try".

Until you truly decide, one way to try to gauge what you "should" or "shouldn't" do is to think in terms of what it may cost your Love Bank to do them. Right now, no matter what you do, WS is going to find fault, so take her reaction out of the equation. You won't magically get an ephinay moment where she becomes your W again.

Deciding which Plan you are in is the key. When I was in Plan A, I prepped myself long and hard for each and every interaction with Drac. I wanted to be sure I didn't LB and I had to gauge MY ability to deal with the potentially the WORST reaction from him. If I thought that the interaction would be too painful due to his hurtful actions, I didn't interact. IF I was sure I could show Drac my best - if I could give him a glimpse of the Bugs he was missing out on, then I would interact.

Can you be Mr. Charming. Mr. Confident Guy while helping her? Can you refrain from any comments about the R? Can you act in such a way that when she leaves it will make her wonder what's gotten into you? As in "Wow, he looks so good. He was so nice, but yet so Confident. Not preaching, not clinging, not begging, not asking tons of things about the kids, not talking about how he feels, not sharing what's going on in his life, and he didn't ONCE ask about my plans or ask me to come back"

What do you think?

James...your plan right now is to get your kids back. YOU should not be having any conversations with your wife that do not involve protecting your kids. Focus on your objective.

I'm working that plan MEDC to the best of my ability and within the rules my lawyer and I have agreed to play by.

You're right.. I really shouldn't be having any conversations with my WW at all that don't have to do with scheduling with the kids, or emergencies for them.

((((((((Bugs)))))))))

Thanks for the words. I believe that I can be Mr. Charming and Mr. Confident during the necessary interaction with her tonight. I won't talk R, won't talk about feelings, won't talk about my life to her.

Guess I could help her load up the stuff, there is a lot of it and some of it is very heavy (kids books in boxes.. gotta love that) or bulky. I'd be doing it for DSD, not her.

On the other hand it'd be tempting to just hold my son in my arms and interact with him instead of her and let her handle moving the stuff. I'm sure she'd twist me not helping her into something like I'm such an [censored] for not helping her when I know she's got a dodgy back and often requires deep massage to work it out. Something I used to do for her almost every night.

I dunno.. might have to make the decision on the fly, and prepare for both eventualities. If she's going to be venomous and give me those hateful eyes, I might just let her do it herself. If she's pleasant, I'll be Mr. Great Guy.

Oh... and prepare the anti-babble..

I can see it now.. if the ice queen shows up and I don't help.

WW: Aren't you going to help me with this?
Me: (playing with son) you're right.. we should help eachother and do things together.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'll get the hang of this.. just got to let it come naturally.

you should not help her in the destruction of your family. Helping her move things out of your home is helping her destroy your family James.

I agree

Don't help her. Doing so hurts YOU. This wasn't your choice and you shouldn't have to endure it just to be nice.

When is your lawyer sending that letter. There is NO reason you have to acquiesce to this imposed/dictated visitation schedule your wayward wife has set up. You should be getting 50-50 until the court decides otherwise.

If you'd sent that email last friday...you'd have your kid home with you TODAY.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - That sympathetic email I posted was not a good Plan A thing because it made you appear weak. That wasn't my purpose...I am only concerned about your custody case and trying to throw some nice words in there to get her to react (like she did) and make you appear the hurt nice guy that's been destroyed by her. I only care about your son and building your case for custody. Win that first...then hopefully the consequences of such loss will wake this woman up or not...out of your control. Sounds like Plan B will be needed soon. When is your first court date???

Haven't heard anything back on court dates from my lawyer. Last I heard from him was that he and her lawyer had agreed on a judge here locally (not in another county), and were doing change of venues and making motions until they landed him on their panel.

I have an appointment with him at 3 on Friday to go over my interrogitories and requests for production. I'm getting my list of things to ask him about as well together for that meeting.

James,

I really think you should consult with a professional. You're getting different advice from different people on here because they are all coming from different perspectives. I don't want to say the advice is conflicting, but I don't know that it's all well-taylored to your exact situation. I know that I don't know your situation well enough to confidently give you specific advice other than consult with experts.

I see your situation being ready for Plan B (except that it will be used against you in court, and you have a delicate court situation), but I don't see you being ready for Plan B.

She's an alien. You can't reason with her. You can't convince her--look at the crazy decisions she has already made and justified to herself. Until she's ready to give up those justifications, you can't touch her with reason. The only thing you can accomplish by trying to reason with her is make it worse.

So. Don't help her move the stuff. I think I would try to be pleasant to her, but don't help her. And work it out in advance what you're going to do. The whole thing will be a trigger for you, and you don't want your reaction to be spontaneous.

Maybe give her a note and then take your son to a different part of the house while she loads.

"While it is my heart's desire that we be partners in all things, I can't help you with this. It's just too painful when I know that things could be so different. I love you very much."

Or something like that.

Well... it didn't work out like I planned.

.............


It worked out -better- than I planned.

I did such a good job, and I'm so proud of myself for staying cool, calm and collected.

They just left..

WW comes to the door and rings the bell. I crack the door and say calmly, "Go around to the garage." and then close the door.

I take my son out to the garage and open the garage door, then prop him up on my weight bench to get his shoes and jacket on... my WW is standing there with her friend from work -AND- her friend from work's younger boys (15 and 12).. they brought two vehicles. I smiled and motioned to the stack of stuff as they just stood there and I said 'There you go.. it's all you.' and held my son and chased him around the cars laughing while they packed up the stuff.

Kissed my son goodbye and after she put him into the car, shut the garage door and turned out the lights... bye.. seeya..

I'm sure it'll hit me soon that I just watched her carry all that was left of my DSD out of my life.. but for now, I'm proud of me for keeping my cool.. and staying dark.. and laughing with my son while she was ripping my heart out.

I don't know what this means.. how I feel right now.. but it isn't as bad as the anguish I've been feeling for the past month and a half.

I think I'll pour me a Guiness and finish off the last few questions I have left to go on the interrogitory.

Song of the day: Intolerance - Tool
I don't want to be hostile.
I don't want to be dismal.
But I don't want to rot in
an apathetic existance either.
See I want to believe you,
and I want to trust and
I want to have faith to
put away the dagger.

But you lie, cheat, and steal.
And yet I tolerate you.

Veil of virtue hung to
hide your method while I
smile and laugh and dance and
sing your praise and glory.
Shroud of virtue hung to
mask your stigma as I smile and
laugh and dance and
sing your glory

while you lie, cheat, and steal.
How can I tolerate you.

Our guilt, our blame,
I've been far too sympathetic.
Our blood, our fault.
I've been far too sympathetic.
I am not innocent.
You are not innocent.
No one is innocent.

I will no longer tolerate you.
Even if I must go down beside you.
Because, No one is innocent.

Ah, a fellow Tool fan. I have a couple others for you:


COLD AND UGLY

Underneath her skin and jewelry,
hidden in her words and eyes
is a wall that's cold and ugly
and she's scared as he11.
Trembling at the thought of feeling.
Wide awake and keeping distance.
Nothing seems to penetrate her.
She's scared as he11.

I am frightened to.

Wide awake
and keeping distance from my soul.
I am scared like you.


JERK-OFF

Someone told me once
that there's a right and wrong,
and that punishment
would come to those
who dare to cross the line.

But it must not be true
for jerk-offs like you.
Maybe it takes longer to catch a total @sshole.
but I'm tired of waiting.
Maybe it's just bullsh!t and I should play GOD,
and shoot you myself.
Because I'm tired of waiting.

Consequences dictate
our course of action
and it doesn't matter what's right.
It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD
and shoot you myself.
I'm very tired of waiting.

I should
kick you,
beat you,
[censored] you,
and then shoot you in your f*cking head.


BOTTOM

My compassion is broken now. My will is eroded,
and my desire stolen and it makes me feel ugly.

I'm on my knees and burning.
My piss and moans are the fuel that set my head on fire.
So smell my soul burning.
I'm broken, looking up to see the enemy.
I have swallowed the poison you feed me ...
but I survive on it,

and it leaves me guilt fed, hatred fed, weakness fed..
and I feel ugly, and dead inside.

[censored] adds up at the bottom.

You've left me no choice but to go inside and rebuild

what's broken.
Too much, too far, too late to lie down now.
I must arm myself to fight you
by making weapons out of my imperfections.
It's all I have left.
There's no other choice.

I'm shameless, nameless, nothing, and noone now.
But my soul must be iron for my fear is naked.
I'm naked and fearless.
But I'm dead inside.
You see.. [censored] adds up, now I'm dead inside.
Hatred, weakness, and guilt keep me alive
at the bottom.


CRAWL AWAY

You crawled away from me.
Slipped away from me.

I tried to keep ahold,
but there was nothing I could say.
You slid and crept away
and there was nothing I could say.
So what you're trying to say
is you don't wanna play.

But what you want and what you need
doesn't mean [censored] to me.

Because I can see your back is turning.
If I could I'd stick the knife in.

This is love.
This is my love for you.

Get up.

Now.

Say you won't go.


SCHISM

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smoldering. Fundamental differing.
Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication
The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
We cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication.

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down
No fault, none to blame it doesn't mean I don't desire to
Point the finger, blame the other, watch the temple topple over.
To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication

The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance.

There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away.
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting
I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.

Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any
Sense of compassion
Between supposed lovers


TICKS & LEECHES

Suck and suck.
Suckin up all you can, suckin up all you can suck.
Workin up under my patience like a little tick.
Fat little parasite.

Suck me dry.
My blood is bruised and borrowed. You thieving [email]b@st@rd.[/email]
You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
beat my compassion black and blue.

Hope this is what you wanted.
Hope this is what you had in mind.
Cuz this is what you're getting.
I hope you're choking. I hope you choke on this.

Taken all I can, taken all I can, we can take.
Taken all you can, taken all you can f*cking take
Got nothing left to give to you.
Blood suckin parasitic little tick/blood suckin parasitic little tick
Take what you want and then go.

Hope this is what you wanted.
Hope this is what you had in mind.
Cuz this is what you're getting.

Suck me dry.
Is this what you wanted?
Is this what you had in mind?
Cuz this this is what you're getting.
I hope you choke.

WOW!

I never knew that I was a Tool fan, too!

Thanks for the lyrics!

James,

If YOU feel good about how it went, then it went well. An outsider's opinion,,,,you did it right.

GuySmiley really has it right. It does seem you are getting somewhat conflicting advise,, all meant for your well being,,, for the best for your kids and for you.

I Agree. Get in touch with the Harleys. Get a DEFINITE PLAN. Once you have the plan, the advise here will be better taylored for your goals.

{{{James}}}

Thanks Bugsmom.. I appreciate the encouragement. Not sure I can afford to talk to the Harleys just yet to develop an individualized plan. Now that I'm mostly done with the paperwork of the D (for now) I can get back to His Needs Her Needs, and Surviving an Affair and maybe put together my own plan and try to work it.. maybe I'll be better able to speak the language and have a better understanding of Plan B.. which is apparently where I need to be.

Jim.. you -rock- those are some of my faves. As a Bass player I really dig their style and have been heavily influenced by them. I'll send you a link to the old band's myspace page for you to check out.. we honestly weren't too shabby.

Honestly the Tool song that I've been using as self improvement/workout motivation (and probably my favorite one to play on bass) is Forty-Six and 2:

My shadow's
Shedding skin and
I've been picking
Scabs again.
I'm down
Digging through
My old muscles
Looking for a clue.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own confused
And insecure delusions
For a piece to cross me over
Or a word to guide me in.
I wanna feel the changes coming down.
I wanna know what I've been hiding in

My shadow.
Change is coming through my shadow.
My shadow's shedding skin
I've been picking
My scabs again.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own chaotic
And insecure delusions.

I wanna feel the change consume me,
Feel the outside turning in.
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and
Cleansing I've endured within

My shadow
Change is coming.
Now is my time.
Listen to my muscle memory.
Contemplate what I've been clinging to.
Forty-six and two ahead of me.

I choose to live and to
Grow, take and give and to
Move, learn and love and to
Cry, kill and die and to
Be paranoid and to
Lie, hate and fear and to
Do what it takes to move through.

I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.

See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.

James,


Real quick before I turn in tonight,,,, think about calling the radio show. I did & it was helpful.

They talk to you both on & off air,,,,,

I understand about the cost factor of the personal counseling sessions. The radio show call can atleast help guide you in the right direction.

Just a thought.

May try that. I'll have to see when to call, and I only get 1/2 hour for lunch so I'm not sure how much good it'll do. Can't hurt to try though I suppose.

I'm going to go talk to the priest on the 11th, so hopefully he will have some insights for me. He's very familiar with her side of the family, not her specifically though. Unfortunately the two priests who helped us through our pre-marriage courses are no longer there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Of course it doesn't help that she doesn't feel like she has anything to talk about with a priest.. heh.. is she really -that- blind to what she's doing?

I dunno.. I barely made eye contact with her last night, so I don't know where she's at in her head.. I still can't get over the fact that her coworker brought her young boys to help them load DSD's things.. I'm usually a pretty good judge of character, but with this co-worker chick I missed the mark bigtime.. what kind of mother takes their young kids into a situation like this.. and furthermore hosts, enables, and encourages her 25 year old son to help a woman commit adultery... after having been the BS -herself- in the past... completely without a moral compass.. disgusting people..

Honestly I've found the last few days that I haven't been pining for my W anymore. Not sure what that means, but I -feel- like I can and probably should go on without her. I figure in the course of fighting for my son in court I'll probably burn every opportunity for reconciliation.. I'm not pulling any punches. Protecting my son is the goal, and I can't take the chance on losing.

James,

Unfortunately, there are many people out there who do enable WSs,,,Drac has his share,too. They believe it is all OK, even 'normal'. I truly pity them.

Regarding the Harley's. Do what I did. First, I sent an email explaining the basics of my situation. Make it as short & to the point as possible, sticking to the MOST relevant points. Give your background, how long married, kid sitch/ages, etc and then what type of advice you are looking for.

They will get in touch with you and SCHEDULE an approx. time for you to call in. That way you can let them know about your limited time for lunch. With some advance knowlege of your sitch, you really get the most out of the call, even though it's not a long amount of time.

I am ALL for talking to the priest, too. Just remember, the Harleys are EXPERTS at helping rebuild marriages that were in the same or Worse situations than yours. Getting their help can be invaluable.

Don't assume too much about your current feeling of detachment from WW. I found it ebbs and flows like the tides. Your 'good' days, unfortunately, may be followed later by those old days of feeling that incredible pain & desperation. Don't worry about it,,, just take them a day at time.

You are doing great!

James, I will strongly disagree about calling the Harley's right now...the focus is not regaining this M at this point...it is getting your child back home.
After that happens...call away if you choose. But first things first. Get your son out of that situation...

I sent Joyce an email outlining the basic situation.

Made it as short as I could.. but with enough information that I won't have to do a lot of background work on the call.

Left my phone number and email address for her to let me know when a good time to call in would be.

Sadly, I do still have a great deal of love left for my W. I'm just very unsure at this point how worthy she is of that love.. or if she will ever realize what she has done to me, to our family, and what she's continuing to do to our kids..

It's that sadness that really hits me during the 'dips' in the rollercoaster.. it's why a 31 year old man can be reduced to a sobbing mess.

I love her.. I don't want to love her anymore, but the truth, if I'm going to be honest with myself is that I do. I'm not sure I could really explain to anyone -why- I do. I know my mom and my brother are very angry with me when I talk this way, and don't understand how I can even talk of forgiveness or reconciliation as an option.. and in many ways they have their points. But I realize our marriage can never be the same as it was.. and I don't want it to be. I want a better one.. whether it's with her, or someone who won't betray her family... I'm starting to think I'd be better off with the latter..

much better choice.

even for a WS..you wife is exceptionally evil. She has involved the kids on a level seldom seen here.

MEDC.. why can I not fight both battles at the same time? Why can I not develop a strategy for saving my M as I am trying to save my son?

My job is to protect my entire family. My W is just as important in my eyes as my DS. The only difference is that my DS didn't make this choice, and -only- I can help him get out of this mess by fighting.

There's a lot of downtime in this fight where I can be working on my M.. I don't see any reason to abandon ship if I can get a strategy together that will hit where it counts, and hit hard enough maybe to get my entire family home.

MEDC.. I think my wife is exceptionally confused.. and in an environment where she is being encouraged and enabled by an entire family rather than just the OM.

I think there are a lot of factors at play here in her decision making.

really James...I think that is against legal advice isn't it? Haven't you been advised to not engage her at this time? Perhaps i read that wrong.
And your wife is at fault here...not the other family...she jumped ship...she wasn't kidnapped. BUT, she has taken your son away from you.
Sorry James...your JOB right now, IMO, is to protect your son....not the woman that stole your child and is shacking up with two of your kids sleeping in the room next door to mommy as she bumps uglies with her boy toy.
But this all comes down to opinion...IF you want someone back that would do that to your family...more power to you. Me, i say focus on getting your son out of that toxic place and THEN...if you want her...try and get your wife out of there.

sorry James...I should just clam up about this since i cannot support you wanting a woman back that would do these things to her children. She is the ultimate bad mother in my eyes....but it is your eyes that count.

I've been advised not to engage her at this time yes.

I think I can do that effectively by minimizing contact with her, which also -should- help with her coming to her senses on her own.

MEDC.. my W is a decent mother, and loves her children. My WW is almost exactly the opposite of the woman I knew and loved only a month ago. I think she still loves our kids, but for some reason can't come to terms with what she is doing.. and how it is affecting them.

Do I fault her? Yes I do.. Do I think she is doing it intentionally to hurt them. No.. I don't. I think she is acting out of pure selfishness at this point.. and while it is despicable what she's doing.. and I -will- expose all of that in court, probably burning all chances of a recovery in my M.. I still want what is best for my children, and if the opportunity exists for her and I to rebuild this M, I have to pray and hope for her to come to her senses.. and soon.

"To be honest with everyone.. if it comes down to me having to fight her and win to protect my son.. by the time the judge hands down his decision.. it's probably going to be too late for her to try and come back at that point"

this was almost a month ago. James, how many nights has your little boy slept in his bed since then? How many nights have you tucked him in and told him you love him?

Why? Mommy.

James...your wife is a horrible mother. Horrible. Your WW and your wife put on the same bra every morning. Your wife is the same woman that displayed this type of behavior with another man. She is a horrible mother. She has her kids away from their father...living with her f-ck toy and you call her a decent mother that loves her children...she is a horror that uses her children....and, my friend, you are blind to that reality and that blindness is preventing you from being aggressive enough to get your son home where he belongs.

MEDC.. I'm doing -everything- I can, without looking like the crazy spouse running around litigating at this point to get my son back home.

I know you want an emergency hearing.. an ex parte order etc. Believe me.. if I thought I could do it and still have a chance at the end of not looking like I'm waving fingers and making wild accusations I would. But it doesn't play that way in our courts.

You act as if I don't give a ****** about my son.. when that -is- what is important to me here, and he -is- what I'm fighting for. I'd almost be done with this D by now instead of still at square 1 if I weren't fighting for him. I've requested more visitation.. I've had my lawyer put the requests in writing.. I'm building my case.. I'm doing everything that I know to do in order to get this war won, even if I lose a few battles along the way.

James....sorry, but you or anyone else will not convince me that having your child in HIS bed every night requires wild accusations. I never suggested anything of the sort.
The fact that your son is handed back to you...and then you continually let him leave to go back to that situation make me question your motives and approach. You have been advised to be in a 50/50 split right now...what happened to that? James...what about the call to CPS just to get them to check out the place your son is staying...no wild accusations??? Just a call. You are not building a case....she is building a case for a NEW NORMAL...and you are going along for the ride....giving your blessing 6 days a week for your son to stay with the OM. Your case is being flushed down the tubes and you are sitting back and letting it happen. If she has 5 days with him at this point James...then you keep him for 5 days! At the very least, let the child spend half his time in his home. It has been since August that she took your child away. My calender reads October now....too long James....too long.

I agree.. it's been too long.

I believe I'm doing everything I can do to get this done and done right.

I'm sorry you don't agree.

I'm glad you're concerned, and I am glad that you are keeping a sense of urgency about me in this.. believe me, I feel it every day. No.. this is -not- happening fast enough for me, and my lawyer knows that, and is getting a reminder today.

I have been advised by my lawyer against doing the things you are advising me to do. I know you and my lawyer do not agree on this, and you are emphatic in your feelings. I appreciate that, but I feel after talking to other people who have been through this in my town, that my guy is the best guy to go up in front of this particular judge that he and my W's lawyer have agreed upon.. and win. That's the ultimate goal MEDC.. to win my son and get him -home- and be able to keep him there.

It is taking -monumental- patience to allow this to continue with my son in that environment.. but I cannot risk losing the war just to win a few battles.

I started today feeling pretty good about how I handled the situation with my WW last night.. I know that isn't your problem and you don't want to see me get back together with her.. but I came here for help with my M.. and I understand that my son -does- come first.. but I am -still- standing beside my family and trying to save my M so that I can have my son and DSD -EVERY- night.. and rebuild the relationship I once had with my W who I -do- love, cherish, and adore.. and promised my life to. I want her to be involved in their lives -EVERY- night as well.. but moreso, I -want- her to _WANT_ to stay married, and I want her to _WANT_ to do the things necessary to build a new marriage on the ashes of the one she's slashed and burnt.

You can call her evil.. and yes.. right now she is acting that way. But I'm telling you.. -this- is not the person I married.. looks the same.. smells the same.. but she is -NOT- the woman who put her family and her children first -every- day anymore... Her Dad and Sister are very angry with her for this decision and aren't making it easy on her, I know this despite what she tells me.. DSD's grandparents obviously do not approve of this decision and are making it difficult.. and I -know- she is conflicted about this but has an entire family around her that isn't hers that is validating and encouraging her to act in this terrible way.

It's madness.. and yes.. my kids are caught up in it.. I understand that is your concern and that is why I understand your anger and frustration. I feel it too.

I am learning new depths of patience, not only for this stupid legal process.. but also for my W.. I know she will come around one day and see what it is she really walked away from... and I know some part of her will long to have it back. Now I can't answer the question of if I have the stamina to stick it out that long.. but I know I can outlast wonderboy.. if nothing else, for my kids.

I also have to accept the possibility that I may lose this litigation process, and be relegated to a diminished role in my son's life.. Do I like thinking about that.. no.. but I have to be as strong as I can and fight as hard as I can for him.. without playing tug of war with him in the middle.

Ok.. I screwed up I think.

DSD's school called today as I was on my way home from work.
DSD missed her bus and they needed someone to come pick her up.

My mistake: I told them I was on my way. They asked if I had current contact information for my W, and I told them where she worked, but that I didn't have her contact numbers handy. They thought this was odd so I explained the situation to them. Advised them that I was on my way unless W objected. They called the Ice Queen and sure enough.. I get a call back from the school stating that I am not to pick up my DSD, and that the IQ will be coming early from work.

Missed opportunity.. [censored] me for being honest.

James,

I won't lie to you, Yes, you screwed up. You had the perfect opportunity to see and talk to DSD and you blew it.

What's done is done, you can't change it now. Too bad you weren't using you WS mentality,,,,lie by omission comes second nature to them. (sorry, poor attempt at humor).


BUT, I do have a thought - - - - Is WW usually at work when DSD gets off her bus? What if you were to be there today when she got off her bus? Take her a special "I miss you" stuffed animal for her to keep. Tell her how much you miss her! What's to stop you?

Well... she gets off the bus at the wacko house now. She no longer gets off the bus in front of my house.

It's been made clear that I'm not welcome there.

I do have an in though.. my neighbor's daughter plays with DSD at recess every day. He's made the offer for me to pass notes to DSD that way. I haven't taken him up on that yet because I'm really not comfortable using my DSD's best friend as a messenger.. but I'm starting to warm to the idea actually.

James,

Who is home at the wacko house when she gets off the bus?

Does she get off RIGHT in FRONT of the house, or perhaps down the street a bit like my DD does?

It's PUBLIC street! You are the PUBLIC. Unless it's right in front of the house and you think whoever is home would make a horrible scene (which you may be surprise what they will/won't do of IQ isn't there), I say go for it.

WHAT do you have to lose?

I have a lot to lose.. Ice Queen's ex husband came from Ohio to Indiana looking for her.. tracked her down and she brought up stalking charges.

Something I can't afford at this juncture.

It's the same reason I haven't showed up at DSD's gymnastics.

Friend of mine who has been keeping me afloat at work asked how I was doing this morning.. here's what I told her.. I think it's pretty accurate about where my head is at right now about my M.
--------------------------------------
Yeah... honestly standing back and being quiet is filling me once again with anguish..

I long to have -some- contact with her, even if it is negative... but I know it -will- be negative and I'll just end up withdrawing in pain rather than with compassion and love.

I'm starting to examine my own motives for things that I'm doing.. and in subtle ways she is right.. I am lecturing her.. trying to 'straighten her out'.. but I can't do that.. I can't make her see my point of view.. She knows in her heart that this is wrong.. and I think that she knows that I love her deeply and am trying to be the man she wants me to be. I can't show her.. she must look for herself and see.. I can't tell her, she must tell herself.. I can't straighten her out.. only she can right this wrong.. and she must choose it.

While that is what I -want-.. it is what she wants that matters to her, and to that end, I've done enough damage over the past month and a half to prolong her justifications likely for a few months more.. which means we will fight in court.. and I will likely burn every opportunity to have her back by publicly making her out to be a bad mother... which she certainly has become over the past month and a half. I will never say that she does not love her kids, or wants what she thinks is best for them, but her justifcation of 'if I'm happy, the kids will be happier' doesn't hold water.. the kids would be happiest with a mom and a dad who have the level of commitment to eachother to work out the honestly rather minor problems in their marriage.. and commit to making eachother happy, and in turn commit together to making their childrens lives the best they can possibly make it.

James,

Please explain this -


What Damage? Fighting for your kids and your M? Come on, do you really believe your actions have been wrong?

I don't believe my 'actions' have been wrong with regards to fighting for my kids and my M.... the intent is in the right place..

But I -have- been trying to 'straighten her out'.. to get her to see what she's doing.. and that's LBing -bigtime-.. and she's got a point.. because I'm operating from the higher moral ground (I'm not the one destroying this family, and I'm not the one who is sleeping with someone else now) I probably do come off as a bit arrogant to her. I honestly think it's her adjusting to the new self confidence I seem to have found.. and trying to find fault in -everything- I do.

So.. no, while I'm not in the 'wrong' here.. I have felt an overwhelming need to be 'right'... and that self righteousness in the -both- of us is one of the things that weakened our marriage. I have to step back, understand that based if nothing else on her inability to have an R talk with me face to face (heck she even told me she wanted a divorce in a 'letter' left for me.. and would only talk about it on the phone.. she -refused- to do it face to face).. she knows she is in the wrong. Her Father and Sister found out about the D from me, not her.. I had called them to thank them for being a wonderful family to me and hope that we could continue a relationship post D.

They were blindsided.. they knew she was talking of leaving to get 'some space'.. and had their suspicions already about there being an OM.. I only confirmed it with the evidence I had on hand. I know her dad is torn up about this.. he told me the day we got married that he'd never approved of any of the Ice Queen's significant others before me.. and had told his daughter after meeting me the first time 'Don't you -ever- let him go'... and the day I told him that IQ didn't want me to talk to him or her sister anymore.. he told me that he honestly didn't know who his daughter was right now, and was deeply hurt that she would act this way towards a man he knew loved her and her children, and made every sacrifice to enrich the lives of his family.. and then he said something to me for the first time.. honestly I don't think I've even heard him say it to his daughters since I've known him... but he told me that he loved me.

IQ's sister.. is -very- Catholic.. and extremely anti-divorce (despite having one herself -years- ago).. her marriage isn't all roses either, but they are committed to staying married and overcoming their problems. After I had informed FIL about the D.. I got a call from SIL about 5 minutes later.. first words after my 'hello' was: 'That spoiled little brat!!'... older sisters have a way with words don't they? And when I confirmed her suspicions about the A.. she was livid.. beyond livid.. and I believe from the trickle of information I hear that she still is.. and that FIL and SIL are -still- helping me fight for my family.. and I have sent word to them through various channels about how much I love and appreciate them for it.

I've exposed to DSD's grandparents who have managed to be in contact with the Ice Queen and have applied their pressure in very non-judgmental ways.. always out of concern for what is best for the children.. always out of love and support for our family and their belief in the strength of our M.. and always leaving her with their impression of what I'm going through.. as they see the man who loves his wife, loves his family, and is fighting with all his might, and doing all he knows to do, to protect his family from harm.


I have wonderful allies in this fight.. IQ sees it as me turning her family into adversaries against her.. I hope someday she will understand that the people that -really- love her.. cannot support her in this decision -because- we love her, and do not want to see her, or our children suffer for this any more than we already are..

I don't remember who said it earlier in the thread.. but they are right... my suffering is incidental. Even if it is -her- objective.. for whatever reason.

Saw Purdue on your thread and had to finish reading. My sister is going to Purdue right now and we are very big Boilermaker family. Anyway, now that I have deduced what state you are from, I will comment.

First of all in our state you CAN NOT keep your son. You are very right in doing this. We are currently trying to get custody of my H's OC. We have a very aggresive lawyer and he said that under no terms were we to try to keep her. She is in a situation where her mother is now in a very violent lesbian relationship and has refused visitation. She is also a horrible drug addict. This is still not enough to get emergency custody. If you don't send your son back to his mother, you will lose all hope of custody for good. Our state is a very slow state when it comes to legal issues. We have been trying for custody since May and have yet to have a court date.

Her mother has refused to let us see her except for a few days since May and it is well within her legal right to do so. When you let your wife take your son away the first time, you gave up the right to keep him with you without legal documentation. Unfortuantely in our state, the fathers do not have the same rights as mothers despite their married status. Even if you had kept him when she moved out, you still would have probably had to give him back until you had legal custody. This advice was given to my H when we were divorcing. He threatened to keep our oldest daughter and his lawyer told him that I would very easily get her back and he would lose in the end. You are going about this the right way. Stay firm and build your case. I do agree with getting CPS over there to look at the environment. It will only help if they check out both homes and then get that info into the case.

I will pray for you and continue to build the best case that you can. Look at it as her having more time to screw up. Her unwillingness to work with you will hurt her not you. Continue to follow your lawyers guidlines and remember that every state is different. Especially if you live in the county I think you do. Your ability to stick to your word will work wonders in your favor.



My prayers are with you.

Baloney...that is a ridiculous post. Custody is NOT determined on a state basis anyway. Your H's OC is a whole diffrent ball of yarn that a child of a father that has raised him.

Your comment about him giving up his right the first time she took him away is without merit. Show me the statute. Your comments are flat out wrong and ridiculously uninformed.

Illinois Child Custody Laws
Go to another Illinois divorce page...

Illinois Laws on Best Interest of the Child.
(750 ILCS 5/602)
The court shall determine custody in accordance with the best interest of the child. The court shall consider all relevant factors including the following guidelines:

1. The wishes of the child's parent or parents as to custody of the child;

2. The wishes of the child as to custody;

3. The interaction and interrelationship of the child with his parent or parents, his siblings and any other person who may significantly affect the child's best interest;

4. The child's adjustment to his home, school and community;

5. The mental and physical health of all individuals involved;

6. The physical violence or threat of physical violence by the child's potential custodian, whether directed against the child or directed against another person;

7. The occurrence of ongoing abuse as defined in Section 103 of the Illinois Domestic Violence Act of 1986, whether directed against the child or directed against another person; and

8. The willingness and ability of each parent to facilitate and encourage a close and continuing relationship between the other parent and the child.

The court doesn't consider conduct of a present or proposed custodian that does not affect the relationship to the child.


Laws of Joint Custody.
(750 ILCS 5/602.1)
Unless the court finds the occurrence of ongoing abuse, it shall presume that the maximum involvement and cooperation of both parents regarding the physical, mental, moral, and emotional well-being of their child is in the best interest of the child. There shall be no presumption in favor of or against joint custody but upon the application of either or both parents, or upon its own motion, the court shall consider an award of joint custody. The court may enter an order of joint custody if it determines that joint custody would be in the best interests of the child, taking into account the following:


1. The ability of the parents to cooperate effectively and consistently in matters that directly affect the joint parenting of the child. "Ability of the parents to cooperate" means the parents' capacity to substantially comply with a Joint Parenting Order. The court shall not consider the inability of the parents to cooperate effectively and consistently in matters that do not directly affect the joint parenting of the child;


2. The residential circumstances of each parent; and


3. All other factors which may be relevant to the best interest of the child.

MEDC, child CUSTODY laws ARE different in each state.

I KNOW the laws are different in each state BUT custody is determined at a local level not in a state court.

Illionois laws are just like the vast majority of the others,.....even better in some respects...the law is in the post above

I DO agree with MEDC that the circumstances in your case are very different from this situation and advice given to you by your attorney may not apply here.

The FACTS that GC pointed out are not accurate at all. Not even close.

Well actually each state has their own statutes concerning family law, but I think you are correct. It's still up to the local Judge.

I know this to be true because I just went thru it. My H recieved this same advice that James it getting from his lawyer. IF he takes his son..it will damage his case. It is best that he leaves him with his mother for now because he will want to be viewed as being the parent that is not pulling the child back and forth. I was not referring to the OC as being a like case only like advice....i DID mention that my H recieved this advice also even though we were married. If he does not go thru the legal channels he will lose custody. The judge will look at it as petty domestic disputes and will look at it as a personal vendeta against his wife. If he can get CPS in there and get a negative report...THEN he could file for emergency custody and keep his son. Until then it is not advisable. I just called my lawyer and double checked this information. It is sound. In our state, the mothers have the legal rights..it may not be what the law reads, but it IS how it is. This state is not as quick to recongnize a fathers legal rights against that of the birth mother. It may not be right and it may not be how it should be...but its how it is. They almost always take the mothers side no matter the situation. Our states legal matters are very much in need of some help.

I know they have their own statutes, I have posted them right on this thread.
Illinois statutes are better than some others...basically the same in that "best interest" is given a lot of weight...better in the it really takes other things into consideration.

GC...you made a lot of statements that were not true.



Where did you get that the father gives up his legal rights to his child the first time he lets her leave with him. Legal rights are determined by statute.
There are fathers rights lawyers in your state....James and I spoke of one, that specialize in this and disagree with the approach of the lawyer. But bottom line, the statutes have been posted...and they are NOT as you portrayed them.

James needs to be comfortable with his lawyer. ..he is...my point in responding to you was that you gave incorrect info regarding the laws...not your experience...but the laws of the state.

Have you dealt with the local judges here? No..I have. It doesn't really matter what the law states..it matters how the judge rules. If he takes him..he will lose. Don't ever assume someone doesn't know how to play the legal game in their own state. This is Indiana not Illinois. I went to college for this and I keep up with the child legal system in our county and surrounding very well. I know what I am talking about. He is doing exactly what he should do. Indiana does not always rule in favor of the child...it favors the mother. Not a great system but that is how things are here.

He did not give up his legal rights to the child only his ability to keep him in the home. I am not talking about legal here...i am talking about winning custody. They are two different things.

I will check Indiana statutes...and YOU said LEGAL RIGHTS which is the law.....YOU stated facts related to statutory law....not experience...read your own words.

I was under the impression that james was from Illinois.

The law in Indiana instructs the judge not to favor either parent in the granting of custody.

There is no express law either encouraging or discouraging joint physical custody as opposed to sole physical custody. In all cases, the judge will simply try to set up the custody situation that is best for the child.

There is a law in Indiana on joint legal custody if the judge believes that would be in the best interest of the child.

Factors the judge will consider in deciding about joint legal custody include:


Whether the parties themselves agreed to joint legal custody.
Whether each party is a fit and suitable parent.
Whether the parties are willing and able to communicate and cooperate for the child's benefit.
The wishes of the child, if the child is at least 14 years of age.
Whether the child has a close and beneficial relationship with both parties.
Whether the parties live near each other and plan to continue to do so.
The physical and emotional environment in each home.

If my H had kept my children I would have been granted custody and probably have gotten a restraining order against him stating that I was afraid he would not return the children. I would have gotten it too. His wife can do the same. It isn't legal, but it can be done and be done easily. I am glad he is comfortable with his lawyer. I was speaking against the people tellng him to not give him back. This is not good advice.

And NO, I have not dealt with the judges there... BUT I have dealt with the system in three states, PA, MD and DE...and all of them have laws vastly similar to Ind and Ill. I was advised by some to follow the same type of advice James has been given... I didn't and I have full custody...custodial and legal of my son. And I would say that Jame's STBXW is worse than mine ever was.
On top of that I am a retired cop and I KNOW .... KNOW... that laws are determined by statute...and that James has a legal right to his child until a COURT determines custody. He is afforded that right by statute....not by a judges opinion.
Again, you talked of laws... I called you on that aspect of your post. Nothing more.

Thanks for the insight GC.. it certainly helps to explain some of the things my lawyer has been telling me.

My lawyer though seems confident that we have a good case. I'm going over interrogitories with him on Monday which have to be in by Wednesday. I've listed -everything- I can think of under the statutes we use here in Indiana to determine custody.

I think it will strongly play to my favor that this -isn't- about money for me, but custody issues for her have -always- been about the money. I can show that she has said many times to me and to DSD's grandparents (who will be testifying in my favor) that she forbade contact with DSD's father during periods which he was not paying support. Ultimately this decision led to the alienation of DSD from her father (not that he did a whole lot on his end to remediate) Still, none of the information the Ice Queen was required to forward to him, none of the visitation he was entitled to was given etc for 3 years as of the end of this month. She's then turned around and taken the man who stepped up to the plate to -be- a father to this little girl and turned her against him because the IQ is mad that I want custody of my son.. this is almost the -definition- of emotional abuse... but I'm going to talk to my lawyer about it before going down that road... that'll happen Monday.

I think though, given all of the givens of that situation, it is reasonable to expect that she will do the same thing with my son.. and -that- is my reason for fighting. So that he -never- has to go through the pain I watched DSD go through for a little over a year before she finally embraced the fact that there -was- a dad in her life.. and what's better than that.. he -volunteered- for the job.

James, the fact that her parenst will testify on your behalf is HUGE!

James is from Indiana

Little town the Beach Boys weren't actually singing about.. about 45 minutes north of Indy

I wish we had instant messanger on this thing. First of all I didn't say legal rights...YOU read my words. No where did I mention anything about losing his legal rights. Second I may be under the mistaken impression that he is from Indiana. We will have to have him verify where he lives. If he is from Illinois, then you are corrent...if he is from Indiana then Illionois laws will do him no good. I am not talking about legal here...i am talking about how the judge will view that action. That is all. You are stuck on the law and I am trying to tell you that it doesn't matter what the law states on this matter. If he keeps him he will have lost all hope of custody. He may keep him for the moment, but he will lose him in the end.

GC.. who has been through this..
my lawyer who has been through this -in this town- several times

Both seem to be saying the same thing for the same reasons. I am comfortable with the advice my lawyer is giving me.

I am -not- comfortable with the situation my son is in, but I have -got- to stay in control of myself if I ever have any hope of recovering him and being able to keep him safe for the -long term-....

MEDC.. believe me, I understand your anxiety about the entire situation.. but like you have pointed out on several other threads.. the answer to your situation is not likely to be the same answer for mine.

Quote...

YOU GIVE UP YOUR RIGHT TO KEEP HIM WITHOUT LEGAL DOCUMENTATION....

Okay...what RIGHTS...since rights are granted by the statute.
And what LEGAL DOCUMENTATION?

I am stuck on the law because you referenced RIGHTS and LEGAL DOCUMENTATION. You...not me.

Well isn't it a small world. James I live about 25 minutes from you in a town starting with a T. We love the pork festival...ever been? I am glad that I helped explain some things for you. It is very important that you play the game behind the laws which you are doing....I took my H to the cleaners because I knew this game. I had a good lawyer who knew what to do and I won big time. I am glad you found a good lawyer.

James...

GC has NOT been through this. Her H has a baby with the other woman. I think the issue is not even remotely the same.

Your lawyer is directing you. You should follow his advice if you like him

As I told you on the phone in the past, I would have liked for you to have consulted with a father's rights specialist, but you trust your lawyer right now...back then, you were talking about firing him.

Are you purposfully not hearing me? I said my H and MY children...I am not talking about the OC..geez. I am talking about my COM!!!!!!!! I simply stated that we received the same advice in both situations. I said he gave up his right to keep his son in his home without legal papers from the court.. meaning that he did not make him stay to begin with and if he does it now it will look petty and selfish and not in the childs best interests. IF he has custody papers from the court..that is the only way he can keep him now and still look like the responable parent....

"First of all in our state you CAN NOT keep your son. You are very right in doing this. We are currently trying to get custody of my H's OC. We have a very aggresive lawyer and he said that under no terms were we to try to keep her. She is in a situation where her mother is now in a very violent lesbian relationship and has refused visitation. She is also a horrible drug addict. This is still not enough to get emergency custody. If you don't send your son back to his mother, you will lose all hope of custody for good. Our state is a very slow state when it comes to legal issues. We have been trying for custody since May and have yet to have a court date."

THIS is what I am basing my comments on.

So, DID you write this?

I guess it is statements like this that is causing our hang up. It is NOT a legal right....it may work out that way practically in most cases...but it is not a LEGAL right as those rights are defined solely by statutes...which I have provided.

MEDC.. what are your motivations for this argument with GC?

I understand your motivations for trying to put your foot up my virtual butt.. and I appreciate that. But please, you don't have to attack everyone who has a contrary opinion to yours. You've stated your opinion. I've read it. I appreciate it, and I understand why you are so enthusiastic about it, but it's not the solution for me.

I'm going to fight my fight for my son.. and win or lose, my victory is in the fighting. My lawyer is reasonably confident that we have a good chance.. that's all I can ask for right now. Vegas Odds don't do me any good going to sleep at night.. but at least there's hope. I'm not going to do anything to change the odds even more to her favor

Yes I wrote that...I was only agreeing with our states inability to work thru child matters quickly...james understood me. I was only stating the situation and mentioned the time from which is from May to now and no court date.

On the second comment..you are right I did say legal rights...i should have simply said rights. I appologize for that. The point I am trying to make is that in our state legal rights have very little to do with it. I wanted him to understand why his lawyer was giving him this advice. Nothing more.

Been there many times.. nice place <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm still learning the game behind the laws.. and how they play in the hallways.. but learning as I go, and doing everything to keep my little ducks in line and all ready to go is my job right now.. win the war.. even if that means losing a few skirmishes

and thanks for the debate...i am always glad to have a good debate with intelligent people.

me too. I guess when it comes to legal... I am trained to look for statute to support it. I'm glad we got that cleared up...I was ready to start banging my head on my screen!

James, I do not mind a differnce of opinion... I was arguing a factual issue that I didn't want you to assume was correct. The laws are very clear...how they are handled in your county might be less clear.

LMAO! Don't do that. I did and now i have a headache. It was either that or I was about to throw my computer out the window. I am glad you were quick to call me on a point you thought might be incorrect. After all thats what we are all here for...to watch out for eachother and lend support. I would not want to be across the room from you in a court room, however.

Whew.. glad that's over for now..

Honestly now that I don't have those questions at home waiting for me to do anymore, I think I feel a lot better.

Still struggling with the 'letting go' part of all of this, and the overwhelming feeling still persists that if I, or someone my WW loves and respects can get her to see the light, that it will be -easier- to save our marriage..

Just like the longer my DS is in this situation the more it becomes the norm.. the longer my WW is wayward.. the harder the road is to come home... the harder it's going to be for me to forgive.. the stronger her emotional bond to the OM is going to become.. the harder it's going to be to go through withdrawl and actually start working on our M..

Then again there's the other side of that coin.. that she never comes out of the fog.. never admits to herself or anyone else that what she is doing is -wrong-.. even though I -know- she is aware of it on some level.. She's a stubborn, willful woman.. it's part of what I love about her.. and the part of her that makes me wonder if she'll ever be able to walk through that door again.

I know by her actions she wants me to hate her.. she's doing everything she can think of to push my buttons.. but for whatever reason, perhaps the hand of God in my life.. the more she pushes me away.. the more dirt she kicks in my face.. the more I realize that she still cares enough to want me to feel something... anything for her.. that she still wants to have her hand in my life..

My silence now is taking that away.. now it's only been a couple of days, and there's no Plan B letter.. don't think I'll be sending one for a while yet.. at least until temporary custody is determined.. but the crickets are chirping and I intend to leave it that way for as long as I can manage..

I know there will be the overwhelming urge for me to stick my head out and see where she's at.. I'll resist as best as I can.. give it time.. see how hard she will try to break the silence once it stops being a relief for her and starts being a source of concern.. however long that takes.

I'll let FIL, SIL, and DSD's grandparents fill that void and hopefully continue to encourage her along the path home.. I love my wife.. I swore my life to her, and to our children, and dedicated every day of my life for my family. Was I selfish at times? Yes.. my Taker was in charge of my personal happiness a lot.. but when it came to my kids and my wife.. I gave.. and gave until I was giving even what I did not have to give.. I was content.

She says she tried and is done trying.. but all I can get out of her for how she tried was a conversation 9 months ago when she said she was feeling lonely.. since then she says she has been taking a 'fake it till you make it' approach.. and talking about our marital problems with her dad and sister, and her friend at work... problem is, she wasn't talking to me.. I can't fix it if I get every indication that it ain't broke. Not saying I wasn't responsible for my own actions and neglect of her EN's.. but she's the one in charge of making sure she's happy.. and if she's not, she needed to be letting me know what she needed from me to be happy.

God's going to have to teach her that lesson.. I can't.. I can't teach her anything at this point.. I can only wait, with my arms open, hoping that this D doesn't destroy my family so much that there is nothing left to come home to.

Don't let your wifes insanity get to you. Just remember that your son comes first and you can attempt to straighten her out later if you decide to. Stay confident that you are doing what you need to do and right now that needs to be your main focus. Leaving your son with his mother is clearly not an option. Let this battle be your focus and forget about planning to get your wife back until you have done all you can to make sure that little boy is safe at home with you.

It's a hard battle, but you will make it.


Hope you have a great weekend!

Fresh off the golf course and thought I'd chime in on the great Hoosier thread (p.s. - Go IU).

Is there any chance that your DSD's dad would either:

1. Testify on your behalf;
2. Open up a parrellel case seeking visitation of his DSD

He may not be viewed as the greatest guy. They will make it appear that he "abandoned" his child...but, by simply filing a parrellel case...which ties her up legally fighting TWO separate battles...he can refute that.

What better way for someone to testify that your WW is NOT to be trusted with the kids best interest than to demonstrate how vindictive and manipulative she was with DSD visitation and parental rights. He could even seek FULL custody and claim alienation of parentage. He likely won't win...but at least get visitation.

You may even buddy up with him to such an extent that you offer to permit him to come to YOUR home to have his local visitations (I say this because I believe he lives far away and would have to do some or all visitation local).

Just an idea...I know you Boilermakers can't think of everything.

Mr. Wondering

GREAT thought!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice, MrW!

And that's why he gets paid the big bucks.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I've been made aware through the familial grapevine that he has agreed to A) Testify in my case, and B) is launching a case first for contempt of the court order for visitation in his D, and C) will be seeking custody.. he's also called CPS and lodged a complaint.. which is one of the reasons I haven't.. we're waiting to see what the paperwork says.. we're pretty confident they won't pull the kids out.. trust me I've seen them leave kids in much worse situations.. but at least it'll be on record.

We'll be fighting our battles simultaniously and we'll be helping eachother along the way.

Good thought Mr. W.. but this time the Purdue grad actually had the right foot in front of him.

Honestly though I'm conflicted about it.. I'm not totally convinced that he would be the best option for his daughter.. I'd -much- rather see her go to his Dad and Stepmom... at least there I wouldn't worry about her.

Oh MrWondering...i have lost so much faith in you (IU?) Sigh.

James - This is a very good thing to have your DSD's dad in your corner. It may not be the ideal situation involving him, but it will help you immensly. I would still lodge a complaint with the CPS on your own. It will look better if you have two complaints. Do it now so that they will be around the same time. At least have it on record that you filed a complaint. Since you feel like his case is not a good one for custody, let him take care of doing some of the damage for you.

You will remain the respondible parent but the end result will be the same.

My prayers are still with you (and for MrWonderings..that he will come to see the light concerning his choice of loyalty to IU....shameful) lol

GO BOILERMAKERS!!!!!!!!!!

I go to see my lawyer tomorrow regarding the initial batch of financial records and the information regarding the custody case. She's asked for a ton of stuff but I'll make sure I've got everything and just take out what my lawyer says I won't need to provide her.

I'm sure she's setting up for depositions and stuff like that in the meantime.. My lawyer -should- have by now sent her a similar set of questions.

Been in touch indirectly with the IL's.. seems like they're still putting a lot of pressure on the A.. which is nice considering I figured they'd probably step back to preserve whatever relationship they have with WW.. however I'm glad to find out that they really do stand behind their convictions and our M.

She's avoiding them though.. content probably with her new 'family' supporting her every move, believing all the bad things she's saying about me, and the revisionist history of our M.

The kid exchange went well.. didn't say anything to her other than to tell her about our DS's bowel problem.. provided her with a bottle of kids Pepto Bismol and a fresh tube of Desitin.. poor guy is raw raw raw from all the BMs this weekend... he's getting really good about telling when he has to go.. I think we're -almost- there on the final hurdle for potty training.. I suppose we'll see if she's following up on Wednesday.

I just said the minimums guys.. other than that with the exception of an email exchange she initiated on Saturday it's been crickets.

The email exchange wasn't anything major though.. she asked if I wanted her to pick him up at 4 or 4:30... As if it's been anything -other- than 4:30 for the last six weeks. My reply was all of one sentance: 5:00 will be fine.

I think I'm doing good... and her even asking that question tells me the silence is starting to have the desired effect. No hard looks today at the exchange.. and she even seemed pleasant.. didn't look too concerned about DS's tummy issues.. but that's not unusual.. she did check the overnight bag to make sure I put in the stuff I said I did though.. ahh well... honestly after discovering more about the depths of deception I've been dealing with for 4 years.. I almost wonder if all the effort I'm putting in to keep the door open for reconciliation is even worth it.

Took DS to Mass this morning.. the liturgy was all about suffering and strife, and giving it to God.. it has it's place and its purpose.. and only He knows why and what the final outcome will be. I've never been a man of devout faith, but I really felt that it spoke directly to me today.

I'm not Catholic.. but I did take communion for the first time in 8 years today. I was so at peace finally.. given my confessions via prayer over the last week.. I felt ready to totally give it over to God and see what His plan is for me. Maybe it will help me truly let go. I'm not giving up.. if anything else the other point of the liturgy was that God knew when he granted us free will, that he would suffer the pain of having to cast us out of the garden and into the wilderness.. but He had the patience and understanding to wait, simply loving and forgiving until we came to him in repentance.

I only hope that I can endure the trials and have that patience if my WW turns the corner.

I don't see that happening as long as she is being influenced by her coworker, that family, and wonderboy (who I am starting to believe is the driving force in their R.. )

Ahh well.. I'm feeling good at least. Comfortable in my skin.. comfortable that I have turned the corner for myself in taking the responsibilities for my shortcomings and am starting to work on what I can work on.. for myself... not for her.

Still listening to a lot of Tool.. I've been a fan for years, but their music has -never- spoken to me so well as it has recently.. Song of the Day:

The Grudge

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Terrified of being wrong. Ultimatum prison cell.

Saturn ascends, choose one or ten. Hang on or be humbled again.

Clutch it like a cornerstone. Otherwise it all comes down.
Justify denials and grip 'em to the lonesome end.
Saturn ascends, comes round again.
Saturn ascends, the one, the ten. Ignorant to the damage done.

Wear the grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.

Wear the grudge like a crown. Desperate to control.
Unable to forgive. And we're sinking deeper.

Defining, confining, controlling, and we're sinking deeper.

Saturn comes back around to show you everything
Let's you choose what you will not see and then
Drags you down like a stone or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child, light and innocent.

Saturn comes back around. Lifts you up like a child or
Drags you down like a stone
To consume you till you choose to let this go.

Give away the stone.
Let the oceans take and transmutate this cold and fated anchor.
Give away the stone.
Let the waters kiss and transmutate these leaden grudges into gold.
Let go.

James,



PERFECT!

Glad you are also getting yourself some good spiritual support, too! It is up to God to deal with WW = so when you get down about all of the negative'influence' of the folks you mention, remember who is on YOUR side & that HIS power is much greater! Trust in Him to deal with her.

Sounds like you are doing really, really, well!

Been in touch indirectly with the IL's.. seems like they're still putting a lot of pressure on the A.. ... they really do stand behind their convictions and our M.

For now.

My reply was all of one sentance

Good good, but you spell it sentence, dude.

I almost wonder if all the effort I'm putting in to keep the door open for reconciliation is even worth it.

Well... I don't know. It's good that you wonder. Means you're not *crazy*.

There is a point of no return. For many WSes (particularly women) it doesn't take long to reach that point.

You may not have reached it, or at least for now you can say you have not reached it. But for her the point of no return is the point at which (besides lacking the motivation) she possesses too little of any of the following virtues:

Courage
Humility
Patience
Compassion

to be able to give you what you need for a recovery of your marriage to happen.

I know you hope that she is a wonderful human being, and has the depth of character to repair her relationship with you.

But please, be honest. Does this woman possess these virtues in great enough quantity, really? Did she ever?

Only you can say.

I remember the time when my wife was having an affair very clearly. Technically, I would have taken her back at any point before our divorce was final. But honestly, within weeks of her departure and affair-partner-shack-up, I knew, deep down, that she didn't have what it takes. I hoped she did. I wanted to believe in her. I kept my awareness of her limits at arm's length.

But I knew the truth all along. I saw her for what she is, and I suffered an awful lot because I didn't act accordingly. Yeah, 20/20 hindsight.

My wife had former friends she had hurt and who avoided her. She always had a good explanation for that. But I don't remember a time when that girl placed the blame for any conflict or trouble she'd had on herself. Someone else was always the perpetrator.

Old M. Scott Peck would have called that a "character problem".

When you think about the future put your attachment to your wife aside as best you can and make a realistic assessment.

Yeah, keeping the door open does allow you to, no matter what happens, walk away knowing you did everything you could.

Which ain't all that, you ask me.

Just because you can leave the door open (which makes you a good and forgiving person) that doesn't mean you should.

Just sayin'.

GC

GC... you're probably right.

Honestly my WW is very much the same way.. almost never taking responsibility for herself or her actions. I can't remember a time when she didn't shift the blame for anything, even minor stuff onto someone else.

I don't know though.. perhaps that is what God has in store for her to learn throughout this whole experience. I have to have faith that He knows what is best.

That isn't to say I'm hanging on. Honestly after todays conversation with my lawyer.. with some of the allegations I'm going to make for the custody portion of our D.. I imagine -that- will be the point of no return for her. Either that or it could be a breaking point where the fog clears for a moment. I'm not holding my breath though.

I am starting to resent the fact that I love her so much even despite her flaws.. I'm starting to resent the fact that of the two of us, I'm the only one who truly loved..

I feel so used.. I honestly feel like I've been a fool for all of these years.

All of it.. just is weighing on me very heavily today.. especially as I prepare to go over all of this stuff with my lawyer.

Pray for me, my friends.. pray for my wife and children.. pray that whatever the outcome it is for the best for all of us.

James,

Chin up today. You will make it through doing what you have to do. You are a strong man. You have lots of folks cheering you on & praying for you. You have kids that love you!

Today ,with your lawye,r focus on what you know has to be done. If you fall apart later, don't be surprised. It's ok and very normal.

Praying for you!

{{{James}}}

Thanks Bugsmom... honestly I feel like I'm on the verge of falling apart already today.. I don't -want- to have to do this.

It's going to get very ugly and I'm going to have to stay very dark throughout all of this if I'm going to make it.. self preservation I think.

Greycloud's words though are really resonating with me though.. I don't think she has -any- of those character points in enough quantity to really make a go at reconciliation.. the woman I married did.. the woman she's become I feel has none of these qualities in any measurable supply.

I'm set to call in the radio show today.. so maybe that will help.. but I'm not counting on any major breakthroughs just talking to people on a broadcast..

I still want the best for my wife and children though.. and I feel very strongly that I am that 'best thing'.. perhaps it's a little -too- selfless of me to continue putting myself through ****** when It'd be that much easier just to emotionally detach and save myself the suffering.. for a cause that is almost totally lost.

Ironically the name 'Jude' plays very strongly in our extended family.. as in St. Jude.. the patron saint of lost causes..

One of the things that she said a week and a half ago really bothers me though... we had been talking and I made mention of our vows.. and she railed, saying that I'd broken them too.. she said 'To put first above all others'... and it didn't occur to me until this weekend that the vow she had misquoted was 'Forsaking all others' which speaks directly to infidelity... it's been bothering me a lot actually..

I dunno.. I'm torn.. I hurt bad today. I don't know how to focus my mind on anything else right now.. and I'm fairly certain I'm in for a good long cry tonight, if not sooner.. I feel like I'm teetering on the edge of a cliff and everything in me wants to jump.. but my spirit is crying out to save myself..

James,



What you are doing IS HARD, but it sounds to me, what you also believe to be the 'right' thing to do, , for you & your family. Atleast for now.

I told myself, and it is true to this very moment, that no matter WHAT happens, I want to be able to look back and know, for myself, that I did everything I could to save my M, and that I did so with class & when I think about all of my actions, I can hold my head high. I believe this is what I've heard you saying that you want for yourself - - and it is VERY hard, my friend, but worth the effort! Even when it turns out as mine did. It was worth the effort for ME & my peace of mind.



IRONIC, isn't it? Try not to dwell too much on what she says right now. Remember, actions speak louder than words. She's going to ATTACK you as a defensive move. You know already what your faults are, and are working to improve yourself. Don't let her sidetrack you!

Hang in there!!

Don't let your wife put her problems onto you. Have you ever cheated on your wife? If not, then she broke that vow not you. My H is always trying to put his failings off on me. Since our remarriage he has treated me like I am the one who cheated...not him. I am not allowed to go anywhere without him instead of the other way around. It is a problem we are trying to work thru. Not very successfully either I might add.

If you don't feel that your wife has any of the qualities you know you need to make a marriage work, then why are you trying to get her to come home? She will only do this again. I would search your heart and find out if your wife really is worth your time. Love does not cure all. You might love her, but it doesn't mean she will change. Be careful you don't lead yourself down the same road again.

Well see.. that's the problem.. my wife had those qualities.. not always in abundance.. and she did have a very difficult time accepting blame or responsibility... I do remember one occasion clearly that she did pull something particularly boneheaded, and I called her on it.. didn't budge.. and she backed down... was -very- hard on herself as a result.. the argument got pretty heated.. but ultimately it wasn't life threatening or anything.. but she took it really hard..

I almost wonder if that -level- of confrontation with her isn't what she needs now.. of course it'd be -major- LB's DJ's and such at this point... no.. in order to do it the MB way I'm going to have to wait for the A to end... if it ever does..

Sorry for the TJ...but GC, what you are describing is a prelude to abuse....heck, in a way it is already abusive.

Well... called in to the radio show today.. best advice they gave was to do a modified plan B.. where I'm nice, available, and cordial to her.. but no R talk..

They seemed to think that it might take 2 years.. but that she would in that span of time probably think of me as an option often..

Not sure how to proceed.. it's not even two months and I'm already almost at a point to say.. feh..

I suppose I'll just keep doing what I'm doing and try to make every in person interaction with her as good as possible.

Not sure I have that patience though.. but to know the people whose opinions deep down she values the most do not approve.. maybe it'll bring a quicker end to the A.. Still.. I don't think much will be accomplished so long as she's in that 'support group' environment of hers.. but so long as she's working with wonderboy's mom.. it's just going to drag on and on I imagine..


Maybe it's time to cash in what chips I have left and move on.. Heck.. I know it'd make MEDC happy at least.. (JK.. not here to make MEDC happy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).. I am here to save my M.. just need to work on the patience aspect of it..


On another note.. my 'breakdown' as it were is postponed.. got a call from the lawyer today.. they think that they've got the judge nailed down and we should have a date soon.. on the downside, he wasn't able to meet with me today, so I'll have to reschedule.

Jamesus,

It's important to do everything you can to save your marriage, expecially where children are concerned, so that down the road you have no regrets.

Also, because just moving on, will bring on trouble with your next R's.

I didn't try to save mine with DD's dad, and I have regrets over that, plus by just "moving on" I didn't grow, didn't learn anything and subsequently made some bad choices in guys afterwards.

You will grow immensely through all of this, regardless of where she is or isn't in two years. Chances are you won't want her back, but at least you are fighting for your marriage and family.

If she comes back, and you decide you don't want her, or even if you do, you will not have any reqrets, and you will have spent enough time in reflection that if there are mistakes you have made, you are not likely to make them again, with her or with someone else.

The biggest threat I can see is that you will have grown, and she probably will not have.

Around here we say that by working the plans, you will recover even if the marriage does not. There will be recovery, and that is important when someone has been left due to infidelity. That is a hard thing to recover from...

but the plans do give you a good fighting chance to save your marriage, if it can be saved...just don't know at this point though, and can't possibly know if you will want it if it does work out.

So to put an end to my ramblings, you are doing the very best thing that you can right now by fighting for your son and in effect fighting for the family. IMHO.

Thanks Weaver... honestly, with the IL's and DSD's Grands on board.. I'd feel like a chump if I jumped ship on them now..

Doesn't mean I don't have moments where Plan FU looks -really- good.

Printed that off by the way.. going to keep that one in my back pocket for a while.

MEDC - Hello my debating friend. I don't want to TJ either so hop over to the recovery board and read my post called another heartache. I am sure you have more than a few 2x4's for me and I would really like to have your take on the situation.

James - There will come a time when you will simply know if you are done or not. If you are still asking yourself if you are leaving or not..then it isn't time yet. Get your son and then focus on the rest of it. I made the mistake of just moving on as weaver did. I didn't learn anything except how to give up. My remarriage is not going well, but I am going to fight for it until there is no fight left. I believe I made a mistake in remarrying him, not in the act itself, but in the timing. I didn't make him fight for me enough and now I am paying the price.

Don't make this same mistake. It may look like the easy way out, but I assure you that it isn't. Fight until you have no fight left and then fight a little longer. When you can look inside yourself and know that you have given all you have to give and more.....then if nothing has changed...walk away. But walk away in the assurance that it wasn't you that failed. It's a good feeling to know that you have done your best even if the result isn't what you hoped for.

Honestly I don't see your wife coming home and even if she did..i fear you may regret it. Just give it all you have and take heart in the fact that you are doing your best. And that is really all any of us can really do.

James,

Morning!

My dear, you are taking that oh so familiar ride on the rollercoaster. Those ups and downs of wanting the M/not wanting the M. I know it oh so well! Only YOU can decide when the ride has been enough. However, know that it does get better and working the plans DOES help YOU smooth out the ride, no matter where it comes to a stop.

This summer, I took my kids several times to the local amusement park. I went there as a kid myself. We rode some of the same rides that I loved as a kid. But, now, as an adult, it wasn't quite the same. I found that I felt bounced around, beat up, and queasy at times VS feeling that all out wonderful THRILL the entire time. But, I kept right on riding them, because there was some thrill left in it for me & I kept hoping for more. Same way with trying to save my M. I chose to ride the coaster of ups and downs. I got beat up at times, tossed around, etc, but I kept on riding because I wanted to get back to where I once was. It hasn't turned out the way I hoped - but I wouldn't give up one bruise. I am glad I did it.

So, allow yourself the ups and downs.

Glad you spoke w/the Harleys. Give yourself time to think about it. Your emotions will change as things move forward. Good days. Bad days. But as many have said, you will know when it's enough for you. Just don't RUSH.

{{{James}}}

Thanks you two.. I've been looking at all of the signposts along the way, the subtle indications of God giving me direction. He too seems to be saying to hold on.. be still.. be patient.. simply love and wait, as He does.. and eventually she will return, with repentance in her heart..

I'm not a fan.. but I heard an Enrique Iglasias song this morning as my alarm clock went off... honestly been tearing up every time I think of it:

Hero:

Would you dance
if asked you to dance
Would you run
and never look back
Would you cry
if you saw me crying
would you save my soul tonight

Would you tremble
if I touched your lips
Would you laugh
oh please tell me this
Now would you die
for the one you love
Hold me in your arms tonight

I can be your hero baby
I can kiss away the pain
I will stand by you forever
You can take my breath away

Would you swear
that you'll always be mine
Would you lie
would you remember
My angel be have I lost my mind
I don't care you're here tonight

I can be your hero baby
I can kiss away the pain
I will stand by you forever
You can take my breath away

Ohhh I just wanna hold you,
I just wanna hold you,
oh yeah
My angel be have I lost my mind
I don't care you're here tonight

I can be your hero baby
I can kiss away the pain
(Oh yeah)
I will stand by you forever
You can take my breath away

I can be your hero
I can kiss away the pain
And I will stand by you forever
You can take my breath away
You can take my breath away

I can be your hero

Oh hey... if anyone has any ideas about a 'revised' plan B like Harley told me yesterday.

I get that I'm to be cordial and warm to her when on the phone or in person with her, to avoid R talk, and focus on being a good Dad and an attractive spouse.. but I'm still unsure if that's a real -plan-.. feels still like I ought to be _DOING_ something.. but maybe that's just it.. where WW's concerned maybe I'm not supposed to -do- anything.. can't help the situation until Wonderboy and his family are out of the equation..


I dunno.. suggestions from the peanut gallery on how to do this, or maintain a positive outlook? I almost feel like I -need- to have a positive outlook to stay mentally healthy at this point.. not entirely sure what my motivations for that need are.. but I'll be doing some introspection today to see if I can find out. (I'm allergic to nuts so don't throw them back)

ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Write this down somewhere, because the urge to *do* something is going to come back at you again and again.

Thanks Guy Smiley.. I guess I really know that deep down, especially after reading through your thread. Still that urge does get to be overwhelming at times.

Maybe I'm just not looking at it right... maybe by not actively doing anything to influence the WW.. I'm actually -doing- something for me and doing something to progress my fight for my M... it just feels though like I'm stalled out and waiting for a jump start.

Odd thing is that during the exchange this past weekend she seemed pleasant.. on the phone last night when I asked about DS's stomache problem, she seemed pleasant.. and today even in her declining the invitation to join me with the priest Thursday she actually thanked me for the offer...

I almost wonder if she's trying to test the waters now that I've been withdrawn of late.. to see if there's still something there to hook her teeth into. Or maybe she's trying to put the foot forward to see if there's a chance to be 'friends' here... which there isn't.. I want it all or nothing. I'm not settling to being relegated to a friend in her life.. I love her too much for us to ever really work out as 'friends'.. Don't know if that makes sense.. but it's how I feel.

I think though that I'm reaching out too much, initiating contact.. there's just been a real need to tell her about DS's tummy problems, a need to follow up to make sure he's ok.. and I guess there really wasn't a need to extend the offer to see the priest with me.. however at least it lets her know that I'm still out here trying.. just in case her 'pleasantness' of late has been to see if there was anything still here for her to come home to.

I'm almost thinking Harley was suggesting a hybrid of Plan A and Plan B.. be the warm and loving husband.. but no R talk.. keep it light, short, and simple if it's anything not about the kids. Let the lawyer handle the D.. and I'll keep focusing on self improvement and making myself the most attractive option I can be when she has those occasions to consider returning home.

I dunno.. but it sure sounds like something of a plan to me.

Thoughts?

You asked about a revised Plan B. I already posted this on your thread. "Modified" and "revised" are synonomous.

Here is what I wrote:



Wanted to add: YOU must resist the urge to know everything that is being sent, emailed, and messaged. YOU are protecting your love bank such that IF she ends her affair and is ready to recommit to the marriage you MAY remain able to do so. It takes a tough BS to able to resist that urge...when the communication is sitting right in front of you. YOU must realize that there is no point in interpreting, analyzing or responding to anything she says while wayward.

Is there a way to do this without a Plan B letter? I'd like at least to get the temp custody thing out of the way before giving her -anything- she could possibly use as ammo...

What did the Harleys say about a letter? I agree--don't give her ammo if you don't have to, because people generally think that Plan B is "weird."


Amen. You want to preserve your willingness to reconcile, and the more interaction you have with her (especially relationship stuff), the less attractive that option will be for you.

IF your goal is to get your son home where he belongs...do NOT give her a plan B letter.

Well.. Dr. H didn't say anything about a letter. He simply said he would recommend a 'revised Plan B'.. he might have said modified but I think Mr. W is right.. the same thing.

Dr. H did say though that when I -do- interact with her to be warm, cheerful, and exude the great husband and father that I am.. that way she will begin to have pleasant thoughts about me as her A starts to fizzle out and die.

At least this is my impression about the things he said to me after my on air segment was over.

Then don't give her a letter. Try to minimize the interactions and hold yourself together.

She's putting herself into a situation so stupid it is bound to collapse.

Jamesus, may God bless you! Hang tough, I read your post every day, there is awesome advice in it.

If it was suggested to do plan B then you should do it, it will take time, its the nature of the beast.

I will be praying for you!

I'm going to need you to expand on this thought.. while I agree, what she is doing is -stupid-.. I'm not so sure it'll collapse so long as she's being validated by Co-Worker, Wonderboy, and their family.. even -if- her dad and sister are putting the screws to her.

Thank you so much Doingfine.. I can't tell you how much I appreciate the prayers and support of the wonderful strangers I've come to think of as friends here.

When you pray for me, I ask that you simply pray for strength, understanding, the ability to forgive, and for peace... I do ask though, that if you pray for me, you also pray for my wife and children.. they are lost in the wilderness of the Ice Queen's poor judgement and decisions.. If it is God's will.. I pray daily that they see the lighthouse and come home.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that what she is doing now is not in God's will. Maybe you should pray what I prayed for my husband... that God would break him (or allow him to be broken-- there's a humorous story about that on my thread). As my DH says now, "I couldn't begin to do the right thing until I ate dirt."

I think you probably know what I mean. The odds are overwhelming that sooner or later reality will set in, the magic will wear off, and they will realize that this is not the way that they want things. Of course, that may take way longer than you're willing to wait (or should be willing to wait).

The relevant part is that it really doesn't matter. There's nothing that you can do to make it collapse any faster. If you spend all your time looking over the fence (Is it collapsing yet? Is it collapsing yet?), you will make yourself miserable.

It's not yours to control.

Hehe.. I'll have to get through to that thread, don't think it's one I've had the strength to open myself to.

I've been going through SDGuy's and Bugsmom's threads as I pretty much see their long term Plan B's as my probable future.. so I guess I'm gearing myself up to do that once this temporary custody hearing is through.

I'll try reading yours tomorrow.. and yes, I am also 100% certain that what she is doing is -not- God's will.. however, God gave us free will for a reason. So that we can make poor choices and learn from them. Whether my WW chooses to learn from this is entirely on her.. and what lessons she takes away from it are also out of my hands. I have to trust that God will show her the signposts and teach her what she needs to learn.

I simply meant by my statement that I pray that those signposts lead her home.. but if that is not God's will, then I am assured through my newfound resolve in my faith that God has better things in store for me.

While that's comforting enough for me, I take little comfort in what I see in the future for my children. That's really what takes me for dips in the rollercoaster. I know she loves them.. but she obviously doesn't place them in a high enough priority to give them her every effort to provide the most beneficial and nurturing family environment. She honestly believes it will all be better for everyone if 'She is happy'... How someone who presents the image to everyone of being the 'giver' can act so brazenly selfish is beyond me.. but then again.. I'm supposed to be giving up trying to understand WS thinking right? Save myself the trouble and heartache? It's not going to make any sense.. so why bother..

Ahh... I'm learning so much in such a short amount of time. I just hope I retain it all and put it to good use towards recovery.. whether it is my personal recovery, or the recovery of my M.

God's will be done.

Honestly Guy Smiley.. I'd really be suprised if this affair relationship lasts six months once they actually move out of his mommy's house and into a place of their own.

Now.. how long -that- takes is going to be the question..

And she's going to have one ****** of a suprise waiting for her when she goes to get a mortgage on a house even after having been preapproved.

I've found out through my credit report that her preapproval took -my- credit into account... well.. that's not going to happen again when it comes time to actually finance.. and she's probably going to go into high speed wobbles immediately.

She's not the type to take a guy with a swing shift construction job and support -him-.. she's used to having it the other way around.


So yeah.. I'm peeking over the fence still.. I know it isn't healthy.. it's like smoking.. I know it's bad for me but I'm addicted.. still going through withdrawls from my WW.. and probably still alot in the BS fog I've read about on occasion around here.

Give me time.. Don't get me wrong.. I am -very- thankful for the guidance and I -know- in my head that you are absolutely 100% right... maybe I'm simply a masochist at this point.. but I'm already seeing cracks in the dam.. and I as much as it says about the dark side of my character.. I'm going to enjoy watching the walls of Jericho..

Oh wow.. I just got back to read my last post.

Guess I've got some demons to exorcise as well... oy. That last bit was kind of tinged with venom..

Honestly I don't want to see her hurting.. but I think part of me knows deep down that before she learns the lessons she will need to learn to make a real stab at coming home, she -is- going to have to hit rock bottom.. and hit it hard.

I'm pretty sure that's what I meant by the last part of the previous post..

Heh.. going to have to do a better job of examining my motives before typing away..

There is nothing wrong with what you said. I don't think that there is a BS here that didn't feel the way you described. There is some justification in watching that which caused you so much pain fail. I still get a little twing of pleasure each time the xOW makes my H angry. I just want to say...see...that was a smart decision, huh. It's why I feel no need to be vindictive. She is paying him back for his mistake far better than I ever could. And I just get to sit back and watch.

Of course I never say that to him, but it does my heart good just the same. The important part is that if she does come back you never display those feelings to her. That would be an attack and not helpful. Just keep them to yourself. Honestly, I think they are an important part of the healing process.

Just hang in there and make sure you get a front row seat when the walls start to tumble. Basically so you can be first in line to pick up the pieces if that is your wish, but don't be ashamed to enjoy the show also. I think even God enjoys the fall of the wicked, but he is also the first to pick up the pieces and repair the damage. Just food for thought.

Well.. with as little contact as I have with her, I'm not sure I'll even know when it really fails.

It does bug me though a little bit that she's suddenly being pleasant with me. I know it's not something I should give too much thought to, but it's like that itch in the middle of your back that just doesn't go away.

I also know that as she's smiling to my face she's turning the knife in deeper.. still no contact with DSD.. I asked her on the phone the other night and she said no just like all the times before without even asking DSD if she would be willing to talk.. can she just not see how transparent her lies are?

I guess I really know the answer to that question is no.. she honestly believes her reality to be true.. But she's really so much smarter than that.. I guess that's another thing that bugs me.. is how someone so incredibly intelligent can be so terribly stupid.

I was reading the other day.. don't remember where that most people when they cheat, affair down.. basically take on people that are beneath them so that they can feel admired etc... she's in a professional career.. has some -great- kids.. and he's a kid, living at home with his mommy, playing at being me..

I just don't think I've developed the coping skills to really 'let go' just yet. I want to.. I want to have the peace that would come with that.. I guess I just haven't figured out how. I know that I have absolutely no control over the situation.. but the problem solver in me is banging around like a caged animal.. because I know the problems she's identified with me in our marriage are -easily- fixable on my end... and in a lot of ways I've already resolved them for myself.. lasting changes too. I -know- after reading all the basic concepts, making it through SAA and such where it was that we went wrong.. I know that my biggest mistake was that my recreational activities did not include her.. and the policy of radical honesty was not being followed by her.. and in some cases where it came to my EN's not being filled it came to me as well.

One conversation 9 months ago doesn't resolve the problem.. yes, I could have listened better and taken different actions, but if what I was doing didn't fulfill the need she identified for herself.. she needed to -continue- telling me and help me come up with solutions that she felt -would- have made her happy.. Not go and complain to her dad and sister and friend at work etc.. and -CERTAINLY- not go and get those needs filled by someone else outside the M..

I'll own my part of it.. but she's going to have to own hers if any R is going to be successful.. a recovery of our marriage, or a R with Wonderboy..

But that's just it.. she has a very hard time accepting responsibility for her actions.. she's a blame shifter.. always has been.. which I think makes it amazingly easy for her to enter the fog.. and stay in it for a long time.

You lie to yourself long enough.. it becomes your reality.

if you have problems with reading too much into a conversation...remember where her and your son are sleeping every night. That should help put it in perspective. She could laugh, profess ger love for you, seem like her old self...and if she is sharing a pillow with her boy toy...it should all be ignored, it means nothing.

James,



Yes, this is what WSs do. That doesn't mean that the "reality" they created will last - it Won't! One of the hardest things, though, it getting yourself to the point of not thinking about that. Keep on YOUR path. I know it's hard & you will have those times of just beating your head against the wall wondering HOW they could be doing what they are doing. It takes Time to get there. So keep the ice pack handy for those bumps on your head!


Remember, it is 'her' reality. Right now, that does not include seeing the FULL picture of any part of her life, just the parts she wants to see and those that she 'creates'.

Drac actually told me when he and the Ho were "just friends", how he felt so sorry for her because she is a single mom. So, then he turns around and makes me INTO a single mom??!! See what I mean??

Rational thinking does not apply. Not while they are full time in Affairland.

Keep the focus on you and the kids as much as you can. Vent here,,,it's OK. We've all been there - done that, unfortunately!

Have a good day!

Thanks Bugsmom.. I hate that I keep needing these reality checks, but I really do appreciate them.

Sometimes it really feels like I'm in a fog of my own.. complete denial that this is what is -really- happening. Glad to have people here to help keep me grounded.

I know SDGuy would tell me to focus on what IS rather than what I believe SHOULD BE.. and I keep that in my back pocket to look at when things get really tough.


MEDC.. I don't know whether it's trying to read too much into a conversation.. or the notion that one of the changes I have made is getting back to something I was -very- good at in the past, and that is paying attention to detail. I had really stopped paying attention to my wife over the course of our M.. and now when she talks I give my undivided attention.. and have picked up on little things that I really am not sure where to go with them.. Honestly I let a lot of the hurtful things fly by and discount it as fogtalk and let it roll off my back.. but I am aware that to really know where things are going I have to take what nuggets of truth I can find in what she's saying and piece the puzzle together from that.

Then again I'm supposed to be protecting myself from worrying about that if I'm to do even a modified Plan B... still though, it's difficult -not- to look for meanings in things and discern a direction that she's headed in.

You are. I know I was. I went through months of denial, false recovery, and then I fought acceptance kicking and screaming. And I'm just a rookie at this--BrambleRose is the one who thumped it into me until it stuck.


It's incredibly difficult. This is (hopefully) the hardest thing you will ever do. In Plan A it's okay to dissect the Fogspeak to look for hidden meaning. In Plan B, you're supposed to be protecting yourself from it. BR beat this one into me--you want to understand it better so that you can try to control it. But you can't. You will be bringing more unhappiness on yourself.

So, yeah, she's being nice to you. She wants you to be nice to her. In Affairland, the two of you will still be friends. It would lessen the impact of the evil she is perpetrating if everything is all cordial between the two of you. Plus, she could still cake-eat.

Ignore it. Do what the Harleys told you--be nice when you have to interact. Otherwise, try not to think about it. (I know--this is impossible, but it will eventually get easier).

And recognize that you're still on the rollercoaster. You'll be on top of your plan one minute, and the next you will have completely lost focus. That's when you're apt to do something stupid (i.e., instinctively human, but not helpful for your long-term plans).

You know... I had never really thought of the possibility of my WW doing the cake-eating bit..

I mean.. she had thrown up the wall even before she walked out the door.. and made it clear several times that she feels there is -nothing- between us.

I guess I just lose perspective that I'm still -very- early into this.. and chances are, if I were to be friendly.. she may come back to sample the home cooking.. and then back off to fantasyland after she'd had her fill of what I have to offer..

An interesting thought... something that would only likely prolong and deepen my pain and the confusion of my children.. something I can't allow.

So pretty much no contact other than exchanges.. of course I call my kids every night.. and more and more recently she's been jumping on the phone before or after I talk to DS (she still isn't letting me talk to DSD at all)...

If that happens before, I'll just ask to speak with DS.. or tell her I have to go if she hops on after.

I did find something on the boards I've been keeping in my back pocket for when/if she tries R talk with me:

Honey, we both know what has really gone on here. We both know that we love each other. I do not wish to engage in a conversation like this. I have to go now. When you are ready to talk about building a marriage that we both deserve, then I am here.


Dunno if I'll ever need it.. but it's comforting to have it in my back pocket.

And she really wants to believe that, too. If it weren't true, how could she do what she's doing?

Fogspeak hurts if you let it (and even when you try not to). That's why you isolate yourself from it.

I suppose the problem is, I almost feel the same way..

If it weren't true... how could she do what she's doing?

I suppose my greatest fear in all of this is that it really is true. What if I put myself through all of this for nothing?

Is that expectations I'm not supposed to have? Expectation that if I withdraw and let go.. that she will see what she's doing and come back? If I don't have that expectation, what is the point of -not- going straight to Plan FU and torching the bridges?

At the same time, I imagine that the allegations I'm going to be making against her in pursuit of my son are probably going to bury any chances of recovering my M.. something I'm willing to do for my son.. but ultimately erasing any chance of him having the -most- beneficial daily relationship with both mother and father.. and probably eliminating any chance of me ever having anything to do with DSD again..

I can't pull any punches in trying to get my son.. like Mr. W said.. it's an uphill battle at best given the situation.. so I can't afford to leave anything out that I think will benefit my case.

Have you read all the stuff about how romantic affairs work? What happens to the people who are in them and how they react when the luster wears off? There was a great thread by a poster called Hiker. I'll see if I can dig it out for you.

For me, it came down to two possibilities--that the SCQ is either temporarily insane/lost in the addictive fog of adultery or that she is just a despicable human being and managed to hide it for a long time. Some people on here don't buy the whole Fog concept, but I'm a believer.

Yeah.. I've read the stuff man.. and I'm pretty much down to those same two possibilities with the Ice Queen..

Perhaps I'm just going through a period of self doubt. I read one of Schoolbus' posts talking about how the BS goes into cycles of being unable to trust their own instincts and their own inner thoughts because we've proven them to be untrustworthy and it has allowed us to hurt in these inexplicable ways..

I wonder if there isn't something to that here with me..

Perhaps trying to talk myself out of really prolonging this for a potential 2 years waiting for her.. when I could be pursuing my own happiness... then Weaver's words come to mind.. and I know that I will regret it forever if I don't do everything I can possibly do to try and save this family.

Been a rough day folks.. bought a handful of tickets for the rollercoaster I suppose.. time to get off before I pick up my son in an hour.

At least I get to be Dad again tonight, for a while at least.. not the wounded animal afraid of its own shadow..

I like being Dad.. I like putting a smile on my little boy's face.. DD is just so busy with volleyball, swimming, softball.. at 12 she's almost all grown up.. and thankfully too occupied to dwell on the pain of this.. though she and the Ice Queen were never really close.. something I think really bothered her when she was my W...

I dunno.. and that's what gets me. I keep saying I dunno.

In my line of work those two words better be followed up with 'but I'll find out'... in this case though.. I have to wonder if I really will.

James,

One thing I am continuing to hold on to,,, that I haven't really LEARNED well yet myself, is to "ASSUME" nothing. You know what assume means when you break it apart.

We do not KNOW what is going on in the mind or heart of the WW. You can guess,,, but you are coming at it from a realistic, logical point of view. None of that applies to a WS.

It is hard, hard not to do it, but try. If you read about those that have recovered, at the moments when the BS felt like most all was lost, THOSE seem to be the moments that the WS was thinking something totally different.

Plus, it drives us crazy trying to figure things out!

I have gone to CrazyLand enough in the last year that I have total FREE access from all of my frequent flyer miles!

I still make short jumps over there. To that place where I worry and wonder what Drac is doing & thinking. UGH!!

I don't know about the 2 year waiting thing. I know that I deal with each day as it comes. As I told Guy, there ARE infinite possibilies out there for me, but right now I don't want them. When will I want them? I don't know. I don't worry about it.

Enjoy being Dad tonight. You know, I've heard that this Dad guy is a really great guy!! In fact, I know a little one who wants to be JUST like him in every way. A little boy who sees his HERO in you! Bask in that admiration my friend!!

Heh.. I'm glad you think so Bugsmom..

I think DS is starting to grow attached to OM.. which really rips me apart. (No MEDC.. this is not an invitation to pile on about how I need to get him out -now-.. I know this, and we've been through that).. I know DS is still my little buddy and I know in my heart that I'm his hero..

The Ice Queen mentioned tonight at the transfer that she's putting together a Cars themed room for DS.. it's his favorite movie as I think I've mentioned.. says that they've found a place that they like. She accused me of keeping some of the toys he brings home from daycare. I simply told her that I've been letting him bring and take whatever he wants.. haven't really been keeping track.. I figure if he wants it here it's here.. if he wants it there it's there. She babbled something about them trying to build a collection for him and his themed room... whatever.

I'm kinda waiting for the fallout at this point. Though I guess in a way this is kind of a good thing.. -if- they get a place.. then I imagine it'll bring reality that much faster.. and at least she won't have the total validation and support -all the time- of Wonderboy's family.. She'll have to start dealing with bills and closing costs etc.. congrats to her.. welcome to grownup land.

Either that or as I suspect is more likely the case, she'll fall flat on her face when trying to finance.. unless Wonderboy's mom is stupid enough (not putting anything beyond that one at this point) to apply her credit to the issue.. which will make things even messier when/if this all falls apart.

She seems so confident and self assured these days.. and here I am.. getting there.. but it feels like a front. I'm second guessing -everything- at this point.. and I feel completely lost. I'm definitely emotionally behind in this game.. but I'm not giving any outward indication of how fragile I feel right now... at least I don't think I am.

Heh.. I gotta hope you're right Bugsmom.. that when it feels like all is lost, WS is thinking totally different.. I dunno.. it's probably too soon for that.. but I -feel- the light at the end of the tunnel is growing dim. I know once she receives the interrogitories it won't get any brighter either.. I don't figure throwing in her face what a crappy mom she's being is going to be anything -but- a huge LB... *sigh*

Meet with the lawyer tomorrow to finalize our strategy for the temp custody hearing.. still no date yet but hopefully that'll be coming very soon.

I talk with the priest tomorrow night too.. maybe that'll bring some peace. I've never talked to this particular guy before.. but I'm told he's -wonderful- about relationships. I'm kind of afraid though that he's going to tell me to let her go as a result of the infidelity.. Maybe I don't understand Catholicism as much as I thought I did.. I hope I'm wrong.

I have a feeling tonight is going to be one of those nights where I toss and turn.. not really sleep.. I dunno.. but I suppose one way or another I'm going to eventually find out.

Well.. I was wrong.

Oddly enough I slept really good last night. Had a long talk just me and God.. I think I'm finally to a point where the hopelessness has caught up with me enough.. the realization that there is nothing to control here.. that I can really turn everything over to God and trust that whatever the outcome it'll be the right thing.

It's awfully hard to do.. to let go.. I pray I have the strength to stick to the resolve I feel this morning.

I see the lawyer today, which is giving me a little anxiety.. this is so not something I want to be doing. But maybe in a way this is my chance to be completely honest with my W about something I've always hesitated to do.. Of course I'm almost certain she won't see it as constructive criticism of her parenting at this point.. obviously because I'm trying to get my son home.. and away from the life road she's leading him down.

He's such a precious little guy.. so much personality.. so much life in him. I'm not sure either of us are worthy of the love he gives.. but he is ours.. we are the parents God gave to him.. I only hope he takes the lessons we can teach him.. show him the good and the bad, and that he chooses the right path for himself. I pray so hard that God looks after that little boy when I cannot.. I pray the same for my little T-Bug.. God I miss her..

Oddly though, even after the pain of dealing with the Ice Queen last night, I don't remember dreaming of her.. first night in a long time I haven't had a dream about her.. I didn't miss having her in my arms this morning either.. just got up and took care of what I needed to take care of.

It's odd.. I posted last night feeling hopeless.. I woke up this morning.. feeling.. well.. nothing.

Not sure what this means.. not sure I really ought to spend much time thinking about it.. just be thankful that it doesn't hurt right now.

Maybe this is the comfort God has for me.. that will allow me to keep my patience, my faith, my love for my wife, and my sanity for my children.

I love and miss my family.. but in a strange way, that's not in the front of my mind today.. at least not right now.

Just an empty space.. calm... tranquil.. I'd honestly like to stay in this space for a while..

James,

Arriving at a different place this morning that you expected to is not unusual. Roll with it - - - it's part of the ride. We both know it will change, and that's ok.

Let us know how it goes with your attorney today. No, it's not what you want to do, but you will get through it.

{{{James}}}

If you get some peace, enjoy it. Like Bugsy says, roll with it. There will still be plenty of ups and downs. It's still early for you.

Thanks you two.. anxiety has been building all day.

I guess I'm looking at this visit with the atty as a point of no return.

I know that once she receives the answers to the interrogitories that she's going to be -extremely- agitated... and probably out for blood.

Some things said and done, cannot be undone.. and I think that's what we're going to see here. Of course.. the major alligation that she will have a problem with I can simply say is a primary concern of mine towards being the most active parent I can possibly be in her childs life as well as our childs life.

Not sure how this will play exactly, but I know she's going to be seeing red in a couple of days.. and I guess I have some expectations of a confrontation to result.. so there's some more anxiety I suppose.

My response though is going to be simple... it doesn't have to be this way. This is not what I choose to do, but what I have to do to protect my son.. my family. That is my job as his father.. I've been fired from my job as a husband.. but nobody can take away my job as a father unless I allow them to.. and I will not allow that to happen.

Anxiety is the word of the day.. I know this will be an uphill battle.. and I'm sure there will be a lot of LBs on her end as a result of percieved LBs on mine from the answers.. but I will do the best I can to insulate myself from them.

Course.. it'll stop the 'playing nice' that she's been doing I imagine.. it was easier to close myself off emotionally when she was being venomous I think.. just confusing when she's making nice.

Guess we'll find out.. not going to say I dunno anymore.