James,

I really think you should consult with a professional. You're getting different advice from different people on here because they are all coming from different perspectives. I don't want to say the advice is conflicting, but I don't know that it's all well-taylored to your exact situation. I know that I don't know your situation well enough to confidently give you specific advice other than consult with experts.

I see your situation being ready for Plan B (except that it will be used against you in court, and you have a delicate court situation), but I don't see you being ready for Plan B.

She's an alien. You can't reason with her. You can't convince her--look at the crazy decisions she has already made and justified to herself. Until she's ready to give up those justifications, you can't touch her with reason. The only thing you can accomplish by trying to reason with her is make it worse.

So. Don't help her move the stuff. I think I would try to be pleasant to her, but don't help her. And work it out in advance what you're going to do. The whole thing will be a trigger for you, and you don't want your reaction to be spontaneous.

Maybe give her a note and then take your son to a different part of the house while she loads.

"While it is my heart's desire that we be partners in all things, I can't help you with this. It's just too painful when I know that things could be so different. I love you very much."

Or something like that.

Well... it didn't work out like I planned.

.............


It worked out -better- than I planned.

I did such a good job, and I'm so proud of myself for staying cool, calm and collected.

They just left..

WW comes to the door and rings the bell. I crack the door and say calmly, "Go around to the garage." and then close the door.

I take my son out to the garage and open the garage door, then prop him up on my weight bench to get his shoes and jacket on... my WW is standing there with her friend from work -AND- her friend from work's younger boys (15 and 12).. they brought two vehicles. I smiled and motioned to the stack of stuff as they just stood there and I said 'There you go.. it's all you.' and held my son and chased him around the cars laughing while they packed up the stuff.

Kissed my son goodbye and after she put him into the car, shut the garage door and turned out the lights... bye.. seeya..

I'm sure it'll hit me soon that I just watched her carry all that was left of my DSD out of my life.. but for now, I'm proud of me for keeping my cool.. and staying dark.. and laughing with my son while she was ripping my heart out.

I don't know what this means.. how I feel right now.. but it isn't as bad as the anguish I've been feeling for the past month and a half.

I think I'll pour me a Guiness and finish off the last few questions I have left to go on the interrogitory.

Song of the day: Intolerance - Tool
I don't want to be hostile.
I don't want to be dismal.
But I don't want to rot in
an apathetic existance either.
See I want to believe you,
and I want to trust and
I want to have faith to
put away the dagger.

But you lie, cheat, and steal.
And yet I tolerate you.

Veil of virtue hung to
hide your method while I
smile and laugh and dance and
sing your praise and glory.
Shroud of virtue hung to
mask your stigma as I smile and
laugh and dance and
sing your glory

while you lie, cheat, and steal.
How can I tolerate you.

Our guilt, our blame,
I've been far too sympathetic.
Our blood, our fault.
I've been far too sympathetic.
I am not innocent.
You are not innocent.
No one is innocent.

I will no longer tolerate you.
Even if I must go down beside you.
Because, No one is innocent.

Ah, a fellow Tool fan. I have a couple others for you:


COLD AND UGLY

Underneath her skin and jewelry,
hidden in her words and eyes
is a wall that's cold and ugly
and she's scared as he11.
Trembling at the thought of feeling.
Wide awake and keeping distance.
Nothing seems to penetrate her.
She's scared as he11.

I am frightened to.

Wide awake
and keeping distance from my soul.
I am scared like you.


JERK-OFF

Someone told me once
that there's a right and wrong,
and that punishment
would come to those
who dare to cross the line.

But it must not be true
for jerk-offs like you.
Maybe it takes longer to catch a total @sshole.
but I'm tired of waiting.
Maybe it's just bullsh!t and I should play GOD,
and shoot you myself.
Because I'm tired of waiting.

Consequences dictate
our course of action
and it doesn't matter what's right.
It's only wrong if you get caught.
If consequences dictate
my course of action
I should play GOD
and shoot you myself.
I'm very tired of waiting.

I should
kick you,
beat you,
[censored] you,
and then shoot you in your f*cking head.


BOTTOM

My compassion is broken now. My will is eroded,
and my desire stolen and it makes me feel ugly.

I'm on my knees and burning.
My piss and moans are the fuel that set my head on fire.
So smell my soul burning.
I'm broken, looking up to see the enemy.
I have swallowed the poison you feed me ...
but I survive on it,

and it leaves me guilt fed, hatred fed, weakness fed..
and I feel ugly, and dead inside.

[censored] adds up at the bottom.

You've left me no choice but to go inside and rebuild

what's broken.
Too much, too far, too late to lie down now.
I must arm myself to fight you
by making weapons out of my imperfections.
It's all I have left.
There's no other choice.

I'm shameless, nameless, nothing, and noone now.
But my soul must be iron for my fear is naked.
I'm naked and fearless.
But I'm dead inside.
You see.. [censored] adds up, now I'm dead inside.
Hatred, weakness, and guilt keep me alive
at the bottom.


CRAWL AWAY

You crawled away from me.
Slipped away from me.

I tried to keep ahold,
but there was nothing I could say.
You slid and crept away
and there was nothing I could say.
So what you're trying to say
is you don't wanna play.

But what you want and what you need
doesn't mean [censored] to me.

Because I can see your back is turning.
If I could I'd stick the knife in.

This is love.
This is my love for you.

Get up.

Now.

Say you won't go.


SCHISM

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them fall away
Mildewed and smoldering. Fundamental differing.
Pure intention juxtaposed will set two lovers souls in motion
Disintegrating as it goes testing our communication
The light that fueled our fire then has burned a hole between us so
We cannot see to reach an end crippling our communication.

I know the pieces fit cuz I watched them tumble down
No fault, none to blame it doesn't mean I don't desire to
Point the finger, blame the other, watch the temple topple over.
To bring the pieces back together, rediscover communication

The poetry that comes from the squaring off between,
And the circling is worth it.
Finding beauty in the dissonance.

There was a time that the pieces fit, but I watched them fall away.
Mildewed and smoldering, strangled by our coveting
I've done the math enough to know the dangers of our second guessing
Doomed to crumble unless we grow, and strengthen our communication.

Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any
Sense of compassion
Between supposed lovers


TICKS & LEECHES

Suck and suck.
Suckin up all you can, suckin up all you can suck.
Workin up under my patience like a little tick.
Fat little parasite.

Suck me dry.
My blood is bruised and borrowed. You thieving [email]b@st@rd.[/email]
You have turned my blood cold and bitter,
beat my compassion black and blue.

Hope this is what you wanted.
Hope this is what you had in mind.
Cuz this is what you're getting.
I hope you're choking. I hope you choke on this.

Taken all I can, taken all I can, we can take.
Taken all you can, taken all you can f*cking take
Got nothing left to give to you.
Blood suckin parasitic little tick/blood suckin parasitic little tick
Take what you want and then go.

Hope this is what you wanted.
Hope this is what you had in mind.
Cuz this is what you're getting.

Suck me dry.
Is this what you wanted?
Is this what you had in mind?
Cuz this this is what you're getting.
I hope you choke.

WOW!

I never knew that I was a Tool fan, too!

Thanks for the lyrics!

James,

If YOU feel good about how it went, then it went well. An outsider's opinion,,,,you did it right.

GuySmiley really has it right. It does seem you are getting somewhat conflicting advise,, all meant for your well being,,, for the best for your kids and for you.

I Agree. Get in touch with the Harleys. Get a DEFINITE PLAN. Once you have the plan, the advise here will be better taylored for your goals.

{{{James}}}

Thanks Bugsmom.. I appreciate the encouragement. Not sure I can afford to talk to the Harleys just yet to develop an individualized plan. Now that I'm mostly done with the paperwork of the D (for now) I can get back to His Needs Her Needs, and Surviving an Affair and maybe put together my own plan and try to work it.. maybe I'll be better able to speak the language and have a better understanding of Plan B.. which is apparently where I need to be.

Jim.. you -rock- those are some of my faves. As a Bass player I really dig their style and have been heavily influenced by them. I'll send you a link to the old band's myspace page for you to check out.. we honestly weren't too shabby.

Honestly the Tool song that I've been using as self improvement/workout motivation (and probably my favorite one to play on bass) is Forty-Six and 2:

My shadow's
Shedding skin and
I've been picking
Scabs again.
I'm down
Digging through
My old muscles
Looking for a clue.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own confused
And insecure delusions
For a piece to cross me over
Or a word to guide me in.
I wanna feel the changes coming down.
I wanna know what I've been hiding in

My shadow.
Change is coming through my shadow.
My shadow's shedding skin
I've been picking
My scabs again.

I've been crawling on my belly
Clearing out what could've been.
I've been wallowing in my own chaotic
And insecure delusions.

I wanna feel the change consume me,
Feel the outside turning in.
I wanna feel the metamorphosis and
Cleansing I've endured within

My shadow
Change is coming.
Now is my time.
Listen to my muscle memory.
Contemplate what I've been clinging to.
Forty-six and two ahead of me.

I choose to live and to
Grow, take and give and to
Move, learn and love and to
Cry, kill and die and to
Be paranoid and to
Lie, hate and fear and to
Do what it takes to move through.

I choose to live and to
Lie, kill and give and to
Die, learn and love and to
Do what it takes to step through.

See my shadow changing,
Stretching up and over me.
Soften this old armor.
Hoping I can clear the way
By stepping through my shadow,
Coming out the other side.
Step into the shadow.
Forty six and two are just ahead of me.

James,


Real quick before I turn in tonight,,,, think about calling the radio show. I did & it was helpful.

They talk to you both on & off air,,,,,

I understand about the cost factor of the personal counseling sessions. The radio show call can atleast help guide you in the right direction.

Just a thought.

May try that. I'll have to see when to call, and I only get 1/2 hour for lunch so I'm not sure how much good it'll do. Can't hurt to try though I suppose.

I'm going to go talk to the priest on the 11th, so hopefully he will have some insights for me. He's very familiar with her side of the family, not her specifically though. Unfortunately the two priests who helped us through our pre-marriage courses are no longer there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

Of course it doesn't help that she doesn't feel like she has anything to talk about with a priest.. heh.. is she really -that- blind to what she's doing?

I dunno.. I barely made eye contact with her last night, so I don't know where she's at in her head.. I still can't get over the fact that her coworker brought her young boys to help them load DSD's things.. I'm usually a pretty good judge of character, but with this co-worker chick I missed the mark bigtime.. what kind of mother takes their young kids into a situation like this.. and furthermore hosts, enables, and encourages her 25 year old son to help a woman commit adultery... after having been the BS -herself- in the past... completely without a moral compass.. disgusting people..

Honestly I've found the last few days that I haven't been pining for my W anymore. Not sure what that means, but I -feel- like I can and probably should go on without her. I figure in the course of fighting for my son in court I'll probably burn every opportunity for reconciliation.. I'm not pulling any punches. Protecting my son is the goal, and I can't take the chance on losing.

James,

Unfortunately, there are many people out there who do enable WSs,,,Drac has his share,too. They believe it is all OK, even 'normal'. I truly pity them.

Regarding the Harley's. Do what I did. First, I sent an email explaining the basics of my situation. Make it as short & to the point as possible, sticking to the MOST relevant points. Give your background, how long married, kid sitch/ages, etc and then what type of advice you are looking for.

They will get in touch with you and SCHEDULE an approx. time for you to call in. That way you can let them know about your limited time for lunch. With some advance knowlege of your sitch, you really get the most out of the call, even though it's not a long amount of time.

I am ALL for talking to the priest, too. Just remember, the Harleys are EXPERTS at helping rebuild marriages that were in the same or Worse situations than yours. Getting their help can be invaluable.

Don't assume too much about your current feeling of detachment from WW. I found it ebbs and flows like the tides. Your 'good' days, unfortunately, may be followed later by those old days of feeling that incredible pain & desperation. Don't worry about it,,, just take them a day at time.

You are doing great!

James, I will strongly disagree about calling the Harley's right now...the focus is not regaining this M at this point...it is getting your child back home.
After that happens...call away if you choose. But first things first. Get your son out of that situation...

I sent Joyce an email outlining the basic situation.

Made it as short as I could.. but with enough information that I won't have to do a lot of background work on the call.

Left my phone number and email address for her to let me know when a good time to call in would be.

Sadly, I do still have a great deal of love left for my W. I'm just very unsure at this point how worthy she is of that love.. or if she will ever realize what she has done to me, to our family, and what she's continuing to do to our kids..

It's that sadness that really hits me during the 'dips' in the rollercoaster.. it's why a 31 year old man can be reduced to a sobbing mess.

I love her.. I don't want to love her anymore, but the truth, if I'm going to be honest with myself is that I do. I'm not sure I could really explain to anyone -why- I do. I know my mom and my brother are very angry with me when I talk this way, and don't understand how I can even talk of forgiveness or reconciliation as an option.. and in many ways they have their points. But I realize our marriage can never be the same as it was.. and I don't want it to be. I want a better one.. whether it's with her, or someone who won't betray her family... I'm starting to think I'd be better off with the latter..

much better choice.

even for a WS..you wife is exceptionally evil. She has involved the kids on a level seldom seen here.

MEDC.. why can I not fight both battles at the same time? Why can I not develop a strategy for saving my M as I am trying to save my son?

My job is to protect my entire family. My W is just as important in my eyes as my DS. The only difference is that my DS didn't make this choice, and -only- I can help him get out of this mess by fighting.

There's a lot of downtime in this fight where I can be working on my M.. I don't see any reason to abandon ship if I can get a strategy together that will hit where it counts, and hit hard enough maybe to get my entire family home.

MEDC.. I think my wife is exceptionally confused.. and in an environment where she is being encouraged and enabled by an entire family rather than just the OM.

I think there are a lot of factors at play here in her decision making.

really James...I think that is against legal advice isn't it? Haven't you been advised to not engage her at this time? Perhaps i read that wrong.
And your wife is at fault here...not the other family...she jumped ship...she wasn't kidnapped. BUT, she has taken your son away from you.
Sorry James...your JOB right now, IMO, is to protect your son....not the woman that stole your child and is shacking up with two of your kids sleeping in the room next door to mommy as she bumps uglies with her boy toy.
But this all comes down to opinion...IF you want someone back that would do that to your family...more power to you. Me, i say focus on getting your son out of that toxic place and THEN...if you want her...try and get your wife out of there.

sorry James...I should just clam up about this since i cannot support you wanting a woman back that would do these things to her children. She is the ultimate bad mother in my eyes....but it is your eyes that count.

I've been advised not to engage her at this time yes.

I think I can do that effectively by minimizing contact with her, which also -should- help with her coming to her senses on her own.

MEDC.. my W is a decent mother, and loves her children. My WW is almost exactly the opposite of the woman I knew and loved only a month ago. I think she still loves our kids, but for some reason can't come to terms with what she is doing.. and how it is affecting them.

Do I fault her? Yes I do.. Do I think she is doing it intentionally to hurt them. No.. I don't. I think she is acting out of pure selfishness at this point.. and while it is despicable what she's doing.. and I -will- expose all of that in court, probably burning all chances of a recovery in my M.. I still want what is best for my children, and if the opportunity exists for her and I to rebuild this M, I have to pray and hope for her to come to her senses.. and soon.

"To be honest with everyone.. if it comes down to me having to fight her and win to protect my son.. by the time the judge hands down his decision.. it's probably going to be too late for her to try and come back at that point"

this was almost a month ago. James, how many nights has your little boy slept in his bed since then? How many nights have you tucked him in and told him you love him?

Why? Mommy.

James...your wife is a horrible mother. Horrible. Your WW and your wife put on the same bra every morning. Your wife is the same woman that displayed this type of behavior with another man. She is a horrible mother. She has her kids away from their father...living with her f-ck toy and you call her a decent mother that loves her children...she is a horror that uses her children....and, my friend, you are blind to that reality and that blindness is preventing you from being aggressive enough to get your son home where he belongs.

MEDC.. I'm doing -everything- I can, without looking like the crazy spouse running around litigating at this point to get my son back home.

I know you want an emergency hearing.. an ex parte order etc. Believe me.. if I thought I could do it and still have a chance at the end of not looking like I'm waving fingers and making wild accusations I would. But it doesn't play that way in our courts.

You act as if I don't give a ****** about my son.. when that -is- what is important to me here, and he -is- what I'm fighting for. I'd almost be done with this D by now instead of still at square 1 if I weren't fighting for him. I've requested more visitation.. I've had my lawyer put the requests in writing.. I'm building my case.. I'm doing everything that I know to do in order to get this war won, even if I lose a few battles along the way.

James....sorry, but you or anyone else will not convince me that having your child in HIS bed every night requires wild accusations. I never suggested anything of the sort.
The fact that your son is handed back to you...and then you continually let him leave to go back to that situation make me question your motives and approach. You have been advised to be in a 50/50 split right now...what happened to that? James...what about the call to CPS just to get them to check out the place your son is staying...no wild accusations??? Just a call. You are not building a case....she is building a case for a NEW NORMAL...and you are going along for the ride....giving your blessing 6 days a week for your son to stay with the OM. Your case is being flushed down the tubes and you are sitting back and letting it happen. If she has 5 days with him at this point James...then you keep him for 5 days! At the very least, let the child spend half his time in his home. It has been since August that she took your child away. My calender reads October now....too long James....too long.