The letter being referred to is not a pared down PBL...The last sentence reads something to the effect of "time is running out, it's now or never"...this is an ultimatum not a Plan B letter.

A PBL is a map home, and a letter telling the WS you are removing yourself from their chaos, to protect whatever love you have left. It lists what the requirements would be should the WS end their affair and want to come home.

I cannot, however, wrap my mind around a PBL when there are children involved. I think it would not only be destructive to any hopes of joint custody, but any hopes of being good co-parents.

I have been through what you are going through with my DD's dad, James. We didn't reconcile, but he did want to after he "got it". I didn't know about MB or I would have tried. He was the love of my life, but there came a point where I knew I had to be happy and whole for my DD. It was so important to me that she have a happy mom, with parents who although could not be together still conducted themselves in a friendly, productive manner.

I made my heart get over him. I still care about him, James, but now it is more of an unconditional love, where I wish him, his new wife, his family...all well. But the important thing is that we can co-parent. There have been many, many occasions where I have had to have indepth conversations with him regarding our DD as well as rely on his friendship and jovial attitude toward me. And even with us this has been stressed, stretched and at times barely there. So you can see how hard it would be if we had a hostile R and I forbid any direct and open communication.

Heck he even helped me take care of my dying dad, because I was trying to take care of DD...he would drive all the way over and pick my dad off the floor and carry him up two flights of stairs to put him to bed. He helped to arranged my mothers funeral and played/sang there.

Plan B would have harmed my DD. She is terribly sensitive to any hostility between us.

I may be wrong, but unless you absolutely cannot find peace within your head and heart without Plan B, I would not do it in your sitch, not with your toddler, and not with her lifestyle and strange friends/OM. I would want her to be able to call me, to trust me, to confide in me.

As 2long has said, she'll get it when she gets it. Of course she'll get it a lot sooner when she wakes up one day and feels that you have or are moving on without her. You'll have many interactions because of DS, so believe me, she will know when her card is running out. Women always know these things.

Just my 2 cents.

Well.. I'll take the silver lining that at least he won't have to go an entire week without seeing me.

I'll be calling tonight for sure of course... I call to talk to him every night.

I'm going to think about this for a little while before I decide to act.. but I think there is a lot of merit to pointing out that this -is- tough on me.. and that I'm not going to hang myself out here forever.

I realize that recovery is harder, and 2-5 years.. but at least my kids would be home during that process.. that'd make a lot of the hurt go away..

You did touch on something though 2long that I want to expand upon.. that it is possible she'll just do it all over again rather than face her demons... that's actually the big argument I have against saying anything to her.. that she has to come to this on her own to make it worthwhile.. if I tell her the door is closing and she jumps in through the window.. is it really the 'right time'.. has she earned the trip back? Will recovery mean anything to her? How much more likely is she to do it again if she feels she was rushed back home.

2long, it's not just that I wouldn't do it a second time. Though you're right, I wouldn't.

James, I apologize in advance for this post. It may hurt and it's a little bit about me which I try to avoid.

I don't agree with the two-years guideline when the WW has checked out and moved out. I think waiting eighteen months or two years before you start getting on with your life is unwise in that circumstance. I have only my experience to go from, but I gave the whole effort about 15 months and by the end of that period I was beat to he!!, worse off I think than if I'd called it quits sooner.

If someone had told me in the early days of it all that going longer than six months was going to cause me too much damage, I'd have listened and then thought other people can't handle it but I will and I'd have been wrong.

Now I would advise other men in a similar situation that it is dangerous to overestimate your ability to continue taking it and taking it from the people on the other side. I do not advise keeping the door open for any longer than a few months if you're a man whose wife has left and moved in with her affair partner. The hurt may be more permanent and severe even than it seems.

As for the WW, the intimacy that happens between the APs in a situation like James' may not be too much for a BH to get over (or at least until presented with the reality of it he can say it isn't), but for a woman with the profile of James' wife, I don't see her overcoming it. It's not in her profile. She is not just someone who falls in and out of love quickly and repeatedly. She's that, and she's also a punter (the American kind). The people in her wake do not exist for her. James, there are more people back there than just you, aren't there?

The time for her to deal with that may exist in her future, but I think it's far off.

I participate in this thread and almost no others because something about James' situation hits me. When I hear about the way his WW goes about all this, it feels especially familiar. I'm not the greatest giver of advice but I know how to call this one.

Hope is always a good thing and I would love to be proven wrong.

I agree.

If I were you James, I would go back and read over and over MM' style and strategy for dealing with an active WS and mother of your kids.

He portrayed strength and zero tolerance to bull, but in a kind manner.

His WW had years of commitment under her belt and her affair was more of the aboration of character variety. She was a different kind of WW in a lot of ways, however it was MM's strength I believe that led her back to him in the end. After the dust had started to settle from the nastiness leading up to the D.

Why I think his approach would still work with your WW (in the long haul) is because she is out there in lala land. I mean totally in lala land, and she is making a new family with people who have no clue what family is. What marriage is. Her OM is an idiot. I mean I can't even think of the right words to describe, but you know what I am trying to say.

You will be like night and day, strength, a hero...in the end. SHOULD SHE EVER GET IT.

I believe that operating in a manner from strength and commitment, will put you in a place of strength, the other side of need. And this might protect your love, as well as get you off of the roller coaster. That's what Plan B IS for, so if you can find another way to get the same results as Plan B, why not employ that.

Gray,

I thought you just did six months of Plan A and then Plan B?

Or do you mean it was 2 years before you shut your heart down where she was concerned?

"The other side of need".

Nice, JJ

Yeah, JJ, six months plan A, and many months of the other.

My plan B was darker than dark and my wife still managed to get me to hate her. The protection that situation offers can be overstated, even when there are no children.

Gray, was that sarcasm?

You better be nice to me, or I am going to hunt you down and make you give an update. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

James, remember that MM had custody of his children.

That was not sarcasm.

I owe you an update too, JJ, but I reek at them and there is not much to tell.

She managed to get me to hate her, too. But not as much as him. They are not much loved personas around the campfire.

Would anything have protected your love Gray? It seems to me you did exactly what you had to do to get through it, and then over it. To recover yourself. Next time around, there will be no left over residue, unresolved issues, open, bleeding wounds, etc...to destroy your next love relationship. This is what recovery means.

speaking from personal experience, no, they don't. Maybe sometimes, but not close to always. Sometimes they are flat out shocked that their attempts to come back are met with a closed door and even more tightly closed heart.

Plan B will hurt you James...as I have said...forget about Jennifer when it comes to this stuff...the only ones that matter are you and your lawyer...and I doubt he will ever agree to plan B. I think you see the futility in that. So, you may need to modify to protect yourself.

Others here can say she will get it when she gets it...and they are right in some cases...but use your eyes and look at others here that needed to hold reality right in the face of their WS.

And stating that you are losing the ability to hang on is NOT an ultimatum...it is stating your truth...your boundary.

for an example of how they don't get it...see Oceangirl2 new thread. Read what the lawyer said. It rings true in many cases.

Not sure how to respond to these.

I am taking it all in people.. I'm going to consider my course of action and my feelings.

If I'm still feeling this way in a week, I think I'll modify what MEDC said here a little bit and -say- it to her face to face next Wednesday at the exchange after DS is strapped into the van.. I'll just take her aside and reveal my truth.

The alternative IMO is to essentially keep on as I've been keeping on.. and just force myself to stop getting on the rollercoaster.

Called the co-worker's house on the way home.. hit VM after 2 rings.. I left a message.

We'll see how long it takes for them to call me back.

Well, you used to be pretty good after a long night on the town and a few beers under your belt, in the wee hours at the campfire...used to be pretty good at putting a few words together, yes indeedy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would anything have protected your love Gray?

Probably not. In my case one person grabbed all the power and took the nuclear option.

James I think if your WW is going to change her mind about things it will only be after everyone's divorced and the dust has settled. I think that might actually have a better chance of happening if you officially abandon your policy of being there with open arms and you give her a shove in the other direction. How did JJ say? Get on the other side of need in your eyes and hers also.

Of course, with every decision there is the potential for regret and second guessing.

"We had to destroy the village in order to save it."

It is when it is follwed by a "now or never" statement.

telling her what he needs now is not an ultimatum. If in fact he feels that way, it would be a statement of how he feels and where he is at. It is a statement of truth.

gc:


42nately, it was a neutron bomb, not cobalt or something - no residual radiation, just a lot of dead bodies...

I really think that it's the kids involved, possibly offset somewhat by the short duration of this marriage and the fact that both BS and WS were previously married, that makes this si2ation different from your own - 2 the extent that it is.

As far as predicting what his WW might or might not do - well, my personal impression from reading here is that she's not coming back, or if she at some point were 2 decide she wanted 2, it would be for the wrong reasons (that history thingy, again) and Jamesus should say "no".

But it doesn't matter so much what I think, in spite of what people here might think I'm saying. It does matter what Jamesus wants and is willing 2 accept.

I think that JJ has made some very good points about the long term ramifications of what choices James makes now (forget his WW's choices, as they're always going 2 be out of his control even if she learns 2 make good ones). What if OM gets her pregnant and there's yet another half-sibling 2 the present collection of kids? How will Jamesus' kids deal with their father and their new sibling's father and stay sane?

medc:


Huh?

Frankly. Huh?

I don't recall Jennifer advising plan B anytime soon. Or that Jamesus shouldn't consider the lawyer's advice regarding custody. Did I miss something huge?

Whether telling his WW his truths is or isn't an ultimatum, his WW will interpret it that way, and likely react with something spiteful and s2pid, rather than respond with anything thoughtful.

And so, if she's likely 2 react like a jerk rather than with kindness, why say anything at all? How will telling her change anything Jamesus is planning 2 do for himself or his kids?

-ol' 2long

No...it was advice...not criticism.