Plan Ultimatum is neither Plan A nor Plan B nor anything MarriageBuilders. You will be throwing away the money you spent working with Jennifer.

Now, I don't know that the MB plans are going to get you to where you want to go. I have concerns about your WW that prevent me from offering much in the way of advice.

Still, I don't like the sound of Plan Ultimatum.

This is the definition of ultimatum. I don't see how it was suggested that she would be penalized. What she was being given was an opportunity for a reward. But since James is not in a position to penalize her for not coming home...an ultimatum is not even feasible.

Now, if he were to say...if you are not home by Feb 1st, I will go for full custody and support payments...that would be an ultimatum.

James is offering her something positive and expressing to her that there is a shelf life for the offer since he cannot be expected to live like this forever. Plan B is more of an ultimatum than what I have suggested.

Ok.. lots to catch up on this morning.

Let me start out by saying I can't thank you guys enough for keeping me in your thoughts and offering your contributions here.

I'll try and touch on all the concerns out there, and give you guys an idea where my head is at this morning. I've been doing a lot of praying and thinking about the situation as it stands. I'm not going to get into it again with everyone about whether or not WW is redeemable, other than to say that I agree with something her sister said to me.. We know there is a Godly and loving woman within her, but she has abandoned the path of God, and our prayer is that she finds redemption before this pattern is recreated in the lives of our children, or even worse.. when she sees the face of her maker. I, SIL, FIL.. we love WW with all of our hearts, and while we don't want to see her go down this path.. we know that she will/has made this choice and must follow its course until she either destroys herself, or turns back.

JJ: I think I'll start here since what you are saying right now is cutting pretty close to the mark with me. I don't want to give her ultimatums, that will only end badly, you're right. I also need to keep in mind that I'm going to have to have -some- sort of relationship with WW going forward for the sake of DS.. because nothing is for certain in this world.. especially when it comes to the courts granting custody of a very young child to his father... even if it's the right thing to do. I know that your advice is colored by the choices and outcome of your situation, and I appreciate having you on board as an example of one of the two outcomes at the end of this.. MM representing for the most part the other side. I'm keeping all of these things in mind as I consider my course of action.

Gray: I've said it before in different words.. your posts to me sting like he11 sometimes, but I know it's only because you are unafraid to speak the truth that I am afraid to hear and acknowledge.


This is especially difficult to read because it is a brutal truth, and I think you're probably right. The question really is how to give that shove.. and I have a few thoughts on that.

1) Tell her, in a somewhat modified way of what MEDC posted previously that I've done my best to try to hold the door open, but that I will not suffer the continued abuse indefinitely. While I have tried to be patient, loving, and forgiving of the anger, spite, and animosity.. when the time that is swiftly approaching comes, where I finally turn that focus entirely on doing the best I can to heal, and help our children to heal from this choice she has made, rather than trying to prevent them from experiencing the damage altogether.. the door will have to close, because I will have to protect myself and them the best I can from the person who has done this to them.

2) Embrace Plan D and get this mess over with. Start making settlement offers and trying to win as much time as I can with DS outside of a courtroom or evaluator as possible. I will make it clear though that I will have at minimum an equal role in DS' life.. I will not be relegated to the back seat in favor of an immoral man who has so little respect for my wife and children that he stands by and enables, encourages, and facilitates the destruction of their family, and encourages my children's mother to debase herself, make her honor and promise worthless, and supports the alienation of those who love and care about her.

I don't hold out much hope for option 2, but at least the -message- will be clear that I -want- to be done with this.

2long: Man.. you've been in my corner a lot lately. This actually suprised me..


What Jamesus wants: WW to come home, for the right reasons. NC with WB, and a commitment to making our marriage and family be the best it can be.

What Jamesus is willing to accept.. AKA.. Worst Case that Jamesus will put the gloves down for: Divorce, shared physical and legal custody of DS, and an end to the animosity between WW and I where we can work together to try and make DS's life as harmonious as possible given the destruction of his family.

I don't mention DSD in this because.. honestly the little girl at this point has been completely poisoned against me. In time though, I feel confident that she will seek some of these answers for herself, and I will at the very least have the opportunity.. at some point down the road to tell her that I've never stopped loving her, or thinking of her as my daughter.. and wishing the best in her life.

I have the understanding now that at 8, she.. even more than DS picks up on the animosity.. and for her it's been spun into a loyalty issue.. and certainly she is going to be loyal to her mother. It's her mother's view that continued relationship with me would break that loyalty.. and the only reason for that is because WW sees everything as a she vs me type situation at this point. Something I can only hope will abate, at least a little once the dust of the D settles.. I'm afraid though that the damage for DSD has already been done.. and my heart breaks for her. There is little though, that I can do beyond making sure there is a -request- for visitation with her in the final decree.

SDGuy:

I'm not sure they'll get me where I -want- to go.. but maybe I need to change where I -want- to go from recovering my M, to recovering me.. and I think that focus is shifting on its own. I believe that God, and MB together will get me at least to that place.. and if I can get there, maybe I'll find the happiness and contentment in life that I so acutely feel is missing right now... and truly, that is what I -want-.

Don't hold back on me about your concerns either man.. I'm not going to lash out at you for sharing an honest opinion. I'm not going to say I won't hesitate to disagree with it.. but I'm looking for help here, not cheerleaders.

Plus I've always been told to respect the opinions of my elders <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

MEDC: You knew I'd wrap this up with you right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


I think you're really right on the money here.. and I feel like a conversation will need to ensue and soon to convey this type of message to her. I'm not sure about the context or wording just yet.. and it'll be something I need to consider long and hard. I think everyone here really is saying the same thing.. Plan B isn't an option for me right now, and would probably hurt my relationship and opportunities for DS in the future. Which means I pretty much am going to be putting my marriage on the sacrifical alter for the greater good of my son's future. This is something I'm finally willing to do. And that.. truthfully may be the context in which I need to wrap that 'conversation' with WW.. when/if it finally happens.

------------------

You've all given me a lot to chew on here.. a lot to consider. I did read a lot of these posts last night but wanted to consider my response even to you guys carefully so that I could give a true impression of where I am in my head and in my heart.

If I were to write a letter to WW today.. it would go something like this:

I think its a good letter Jamesus. You're well beyond the "having expectations" stage, I hope. I think you should give it to her.

Morning James,

Wow, great letter. I am amazed at you and I walk the same heart path, loving feelings, commitment and faith in our S. The only difference is the gender. And I don't know if that makes much difference or not.

What I do know is I understand and feel your pain and frustration and keep praying for you and G-d clarity of vision to help you with the hard decisions and narrow path you are walking.

Your resilency is amazing and the advice and input you are getting is awesome. I would only ask how you are taking care of yourself personally to keep being able to move on. This has to be taking a toll on you.

James,

It's a beautiful letter. And if it leaves you with a sense of peace that you have done all that you could, in a way that is true to who you are, the kind of man you aspire to be...then it is a perfect letter.

I thought about you a lot last night, your sitch, what the others views are, and how all any of us can really ever hope for in our various lifes trials is as Orchid says to come out with our minds and hearts in synch. Because that is after all, all we have control over, handling things in such a way that is true to who we are, or aspire to be.



And it does sound like you are moving to a place where your heart and head are in synch, an inner peace, that you have done all that you could, to the best of your ability.

James...good job on the letter. I wish you luck with it. You deserve better than what is happening to you right now...and I hope this helps bring you peace.

Uh wow guys..

I didn't say I was -sending- that letter..

I'm still going to give myself a week or so and see where I'm at. Make sure this is what I want to do right now.

If I do give her a note like this.. I'll likely tweak it just a little between now and then. This is just where my head is at right now.

You guys really think this is good?

Well, as a rule I am against goodbye, I moving on letters for a couple of reasons.

One - is I fear they are often used as manipulation attempts, and help to push the WS further away, not what the BS is usely hoping for.

Two - is that it is often an attempt by BS to lesson his own pain, and ends up having the opposite effect because of hopes that the letter will somehow reach the WS where nothing else did.

Three - is that it is often not do-able for the BS to stop with the one letter, often there ends up being more because the BS regrets what he says, feels he could have said it better, wishes he had not said it at all and tries to take it back with another letter, etc.

BUT, if the letter is a sincere attempt by the BS to find some kind of peace with moving on, then a letter is okay. As long as it is the last one. In other words the letter is for the BS, that nothing he really needs to say has been left unsaid.

I do not however feel that the WS needs a letter telling them that the BS is moving on. Especially when the WS has clearly already moved on and filed for divorce. I guess I just don't see the point.

I do like Plan B letters though, for Plan B. As it serves a measurable purpose.

Yours was a beautiful letter, yes, James. (see paragraph starting with BUT)

edited: opening sentence

JJ...

I'm really going to have to think about what you said here.

What are my motivations?
What will it accomplish?

If it's just something for me.. should I send it?

Sign at the side of the road said: Sometimes silence is the best answer.

That's really only something you can answer.

This week is colored by your pain, and that is where the letter is coming from, your pain.

See where the coaster has you in the next couple of weeks, as you said.

Thanks JJ...

As I go back through my materials.. it looks like I've somehow forgotten that I'm in charge of how interested I am in what's going on over there.. I'm in charge of how I let whatever trickle of information I get affects me.. I'm in charge of how I respond to situations and how 'close' to the chaos I get.

Letting myself agonize over this plays up the victim role pretty good.. and lets me wallow in some self pity for a while, but I need to take the reigns and get on with my life whether or not I'm in Plan A, Plan B, Plan D, Plan FU.. it DOESN'T MATTER.. I still have to take charge of me and be accountable for my decisions. I can blame her for hurting me over and over all I want, but what does that solve? I can accept that I'm responsible for how much I let myself get involved in this crap...

Well.. I'm making the choice to step back and get on with my life. Along with that choice comes a true and honest giving up of WW to God.. I DO NOT WANT WW in my life.. but if God can somehow bring my W back.. well, then I'll have to look at what my situation is at that point.. maybe it'll have gone too far by then.. maybe there will still be something in the tank.. I don't know.

I can still try to be warm and loving to her so long as I HONESTLY have no expectations.. Unfortunately it's the expectation of her being a decent human being, and parent.. or even informing me of things I might need to know about DS that keeps getting dashed and makes me SOOOOO frustrated...

That's the part I'm having trouble managing.

Guess I've got a lot to talk about with IC tonight.

You will have a custody agreement, even if you only get joint or worst case, visitation. Make sure this custody agreement has your rights to co-parent covered. Hopefully 50/50 legal custody can be obtained if not 50/50 physical.

After that, you have avenues where you can make sure you are informed to the degree the custody papers dictate.

This is important James, because you will be filing complaints with friend of the court, going to mediation, etc to make sure that the custody agreement is adhered to.

This agreement, signed by the judge, is not up to her to decide which ones she will comply with, it is a judges orders, and her failing to meet these orders is contempt of court.

Make sure you and your lawyer go over this in detail, because you cannot afford to be lax on this now.

We have true 50/50 legal and physical, so I am not so sure on visitation only if it comes to that...MEDC is though.

Well.. that's part of the issue here. Judges orders don't mean anything to her, as her refusal to pay the CC bill she was ordered to pay has gone the last 2 months at least a week late, which incurs fees etc..

I'm going to be keeping some of those things in the back pocket when discussing what 'orders' we can try to agree to in mediation.

We may be jumping the gun here as custody has not been settled, but since this must be weighing on your mind -

She may not care what the judges orders are but I bet the judge does care. Our judge here does not seem to take kindly to a parent not honoring the custody agreement.

I had my ex in mediation for not following our orders when he pulled my DD out of cheerleading without my approval...a clear violation of our custody agreement. He was told in no uncertain terms that if he could not co-parent with me as stated in our agreement then we would be back in with the judge, and the mediator strongly advised against that. We were both then ordered to go to co-parenting counseling.

My point is that she cannot play games with you where your child is concerned. You have the court to back up your custody agreement. It's just a matter of making sure that from the get go you don't just blow it off and let her.

If someone had my child, James, I would make dang good and sure that they were my friend and not my foe, as much as I could anyway. This only makes good sense, as you would rather not have to file complaints with the friend of the court unless you have to. BUT if you have to, you do have that avenue and should most certainly exercise it.

Keeping your friends close and your enemies closer (if she stays in enemy mode), not appeasement, is what I am talking about. Appeasement will only fuel more entitlement from her and less liklihood of her respecting your and your childs rights to be parented by both of you, and not just her and whomever.

James, I agree that you should be doing what you can to assure that she is called to task for failing to meet her obligations. Just be aware that even when you are in the right, the courts more often than not let mothers get away with murder. She can play games until a no nonsense judge (and there are precious few of these) says otherwise.

Unfortunately James, until and if you win custody, expect that she will get away with game playing on a grand scale if she so chooses. It's just the nature of the beast when it comes to father's in family court.

And yes, technically she would be in contempt of court....but the courts across the nation are woefully slow when it comes to enforcing a dads rights. YOU need to do everything you can to rattle the cage enough to make sure you are taken seriously by both the court and your wife.

I truly hope that you are given equal physical and legal custody(well, actually I hope you are granted sole custody...but that is not likely to happen).

here's a link to an article of interest. KA posted this.

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695248791,00.html

YES!

James:

The primary objective here should be maximizing custody of your own kids.

Next on the list would be taking care of yourself. Assume, if you must assume anything, that your WW will act in what she perceives 2 be her own best interests without concern over how it makes you feel (assume she'll be spiteful, in fact, because right now she is), and act accordingly.

In that vein, your letter was a good one 2 write 2 yourself 2 journal how you feel. But it won't do any good 2 send it 2 her.


I think you still need 2 get 2 a healthier position than this. You need 2 want, first, 2 be a good father and husband. Your kids are a given, your W is not (at this point).


By "accept", I really mean accept that this is who your WW is right now and probably for some time yet. Possibly even forever. Don't make your life choices a function of what she does or whether she follows your expectations of who she should be. Make them based on who YOU are - a good father and H (2 someone).

Think about this:


This is for you, not her. She "knows" this about you through your actions the past 5 months. She doesn't listen 2 the spoken or written word from you, except 2 find points 2 pick at you about.


More plan A stuff that you just DO, you don't TALK about. Live by example, not by some written document.


Really? If, 5 years from now you're remarried 2 someone else, will this still be true? Marriage is a contract - conditional love. I can certainly understand that you may mean that you'll love and respect her unconditionally no matter where each of you are, but she won't see it this way - she'll read this as you being needy.


WW's read "I will not, blah, blah, clingy, needy, pitiful, holier-than-WW, blah blah blah..."

Definitely don't send.


A/a. Would you want a fu2re partner 2 read this?

-ol' 2long