I'm hearing what you guys are saying.


I'm turning it over in my head and I keep coming up on the same problem....

In order to actually do what you guys are saying, I have to be.. or at least pretend to be indifferent to how sick and disgusting this all is.

I have to act like I don't care that a little girl who I love and took on the daddy role for over half her life is being treated like this by her own mother and future 'adoptive' dad.. she deserves so much better than this.. and now I'm told I have to act like it's ok? How does a person with a conscience -do- that?

For example.. DSD's birthday is coming up soon.

Do I get her a present? If I do the chances are good it'll just get trashed.. but at least she'll know I got her something and that I tried.. and if I don't.. well.. I'm just like her biological father who just walked out of her life..

So basically.. I'm a bad person if I buy a little girl a birthday present?


This mean I start to be OK with doing handoffs with WB? Start allowing him to come with her to my house to pick DS up? Sure as heck he'll eventually start coming on his own when WW doesn't want to be bothered to drive across town.


You want to say I'm making this situation what it is..

You're absolutely right.. I'm the cause of all of this... I'm the one who put my family in this situation.. my refusal to be happy about the fact that my wife cannot honor her promises and jumped from our bed into someone elses and put my kids in the middle of her ugliness with me is the real crime here.

2long and Josie.. I respect your inputs a great deal but maybe I just don't 'get it'.. and MEDC seems incapable of articulating himself without being snide and ugly.. so I'm asking for your help here..


Am I really so out of bounds to stand for my M until I'm not M'd anymore? Am I really a bad guy for honoring my promises until the end? Am I really hurting these kids more by standing beside my convictions and promises.. That I'd be setting a better example for them in the long term if I didn't have serious issues with what's going on here?

James,

Let me offer up my perspective on divorce as it relates to now EX-relatives. Admittedly, not everyone agrees, but it is the way I see things.

In the case at hand, once you divorce your WXW (and in effect, you are divorced NOW with the exception of a final decree), you have, in effect, divorced her whole family. This girl was never YOUR D, she was your STEP-D, and as such, she is now your X-STEP-D.

Your responsibility post-D is to your DS, and your actions now are affecting your DS potential future quality of life, over someone who is no longer your responsibility. In effect, you are placing your X-STEP-D ahead of your own DS on your priority list.

Therefore, what X-STEP-D (or anyone else related to your WXW, other than your DS) does going forward is none of your business, and that includes birthdays, Xmas, weddings, funerals, etc.

Divorce is harsh and ugly, and this is just one of those issues where we have to acquire a taste for the [censored] that is part of the fallout.

Okay, this is just 2 weird...

I agree with MyRev!

Forget about the calf and the ark, I'm reminded of a cartoon I saw many years ago in a newspaper. Bear with me a moment:

2 guys are sitting in wheelchairs at a picnic table sipping lemonade with paper umbrellas in their glasses, with a convalescent hospital in the background. Both guys are bandaged up in exactly the same way, and one of them is saying 2 the other:

"No kidding!? I was struck 2wice by lightning 2!"

Above their heads, an asteroid is about 2 strike them.

-ol' 2long

No, you are not out of bounds to stand for your marriage, but when there are children involved and they are living with the estranged spouse and her affair partner, you have to be careful about how you go about doing things, so that the children do not get caught in the cross fire.


You have to at some point weigh whether peaceful interactions are more important to the stability of the childrens homelife than making a point.

Your son is four years old. These chidren are at every bodies mercy.

Just think about what you do, what you say and what you are hoping to accomplish by it as well as how it will affect your son and step-daughter over at the oppositions house.

On the subject of your step-daughter, you have no right to go against her mother's wishes. You are out of bounds and she will pay the price, as she is the one who has to see her mothers anguish and watch the gifts being destroyed. Do you want her to be put into the middle of this?

I tell step-parents this all the time and have gotten into fights on the board over it, and I fought my DD's step-mother over this until my ex finally found his cajones and stood up to her -

If you truly care about these children, try to foster a relationship for them with their absent parent, do not try to replace their parent unless that parent has given up his legal rights. You do not have the right to try and replace a childs parent by marrying the other parent. That's what OP's try to do all the time, replace a spouse.

I'm still not buying the story that the dad is a piece of crap. But maybe he is, we don't have him here to tell his side. It is more likely though that he was pushed out of her life and didn't have the balls/support/resources/strength to fight for her. But maybe he does now. Regardless, James, you are not her dad. You were married to her mother for three years. Your stbx could have you legally stopped from trying to make contact with her daughter and from giving her gifts. Just more anguish on the little girl.

I didn't fully get it until you said they ripped up the last gift in front of her.

Maybe when she is of legal age she will contact you.

Think of your son now, your step-daughter is completely out of your control and legal bounds.

I don't advocate "pretending" at all. I also don't advocate indifference (2 the kids, at least - feel free 2 be indifferent 2ward your xW if you want 2). I do advocate acceptance of the si2ation thrust upon you. That is NOT the same as tolerance, but finding a way 2 move forward in a positive way in this si2ation will be far from easy 2 do. Anybody can see that.


Again, don't act. Be real. Be intensely genuine and real. Be YOU. Live by example the principles you believe in. I think it should be possible (though perhaps difficult) 2 tell your STBXW that you do not agree with or condone her behavior, but that you accept it's her decision, THEN continue 2 be cordial and live what you believe in by example. I think that only when your STBXW can get 2 a point where she can accept YOU for who you are, can she perhaps be comfortable enough with you around her kids that maybe she'll allow you 2 have any kind of relationship with her daughter. You need 2 find the compromise here, if one can be found, because of the simple, cold fact that legally you have no right 2 access 2 your step daughter if your STBXW doesn't want you 2.


I don't know. You may not have walked out of her life, but you're in it precariously at best, if you're in it at all. Tread lightly. Would it be possible for you 2 set up a savings account in her name? (I really don't know).


No, you're not a bad person, you are someone who cares a great deal. But if your STBXW isn't going 2 let the message get through 2 her THAT way, you have 2 find another way, if one can be found.



Truthful answer? I think so.


Yes, you are. And your STBXW is making her si2ation what it is. Trouble is that you haven't found a way 2 disentangle yourself from her drama. Cogitate on how you might do that, regardless of what others do.


You know full well that we don't think that.


That's because you're in the si2ation, we're not. You've got this painful sitch right in front of your face making it hard 2 see what's on the other side. There is a bright fu2re there. We'd like 2 help you see it, but we can only offer suggestions. It's up 2 you 2 make it happen.


medc and myrev can seem pretty brutal and sarcastic much of the time, I agree, but they can also offer helpful suggestions (which is why I'm so incredulous now).

Sort of a sidebar, when I asked SH whether I should expose the A 2 my W's best friend, who my W has said is at risk of having an A of her own (and I suspect may either not know all about the affair and/or may already be in one of her own), he said "Even a hypocrite can offer good advice" (I'm not calling anyone here a hypocrite, mind you). He meant a number of things by that. First, I don't know how much her friend knows about her A, and I don't know what's going on in her friend's marriage (other than what my W tells me). But I am seeing that their dialogs must be having a positive influence on my W's choices of late, and so I should let them continue and not interfere with that.

Many people have said on these forums that you should take the messages you see as being good in what others post 2 you, and discard the rest. Like dealing with your STBXW, if you can "divorce yourself" from the reaction you feel 2 what you describe as "snide and ugly", maybe you can find some spark of goodness 2 relate 2 and thus incrementally improve your si2ation.


Not in my view. But is that working for you? Why not let it drop if it isn't. Or find a way 2 remind people without incurring their wrath.


Absolutely not.


No.


Here's where the "magical ingredient" is needed, and so must be found. I'm glad that your integrity gives you trepidation over what's going on. Now, how can you continue 2 make that known without hurting the kids, or angering your STBXW such that she continues 2 be spiteful?

-ol' 2long

James, i have not been snide or ugly with you. I have held up a mirror to you in the past and in that mirror was the reflection of a man that screwed up royally....you didn't like that.

Now I am holding up the mirror to you to show you how your actions are harming your stbx step daughter...and all you want to do is add drama to the situation by suggesting that people are having you do vile, horrible things.

Look, if you want everybody here to talk about what a hero you are and how magically you have stood up for your kids...great...you got that in spades for months on end. Go back and put your head in the sand and think yourself this wonderful dad that somehow could talk about how good his life was going, even though his child was living in an enemy camp.

I moved past the OBVIOUS stuff from last summer that you should have done to protect your child and am now talking about the stuff you can do now to once again protect your child. You chose to ignore it and got on some high horse last year...look where it got you...choose to ignore it again and I suspect that your child will once again suffer. I wonder if that really is your main concern at this point...because I see a guy that has been more concerned with appearances than anything else.

I'm sorry for sticking my nose in again...I saw these kids being harmed and figured I would offer some help..it was time somebody stepped up for them.

I heard Dr Phil once say 2 a paranoid BS (and his WS) on his show:

"There is no reality, only perception."

And while I don't entirely agree with that, I saw his point.

...so I 2k the point and discarded the delivery system.

James thinks your posts are snide or ugly. So be it. It really is up 2 him 2 decide if there's merit, if he can get past his perception.

-ol' 2long

James, I haven't read your thread since Feb after you sent your WW and DSD flowers for Valentines Day....which upon receiving, she returned to you.

At that time you refused to work a Plan A or Plan B...just wanted to work Plan James.

Wanted to do it your way.

And I see that you still do.

I see your gift giving as abusive, James, I really do.

I think it was Mr. W who suggested to you waaaaay back when that you ought to put money aside every week or month for your DSD so that when she graduates from HS you can help pay for college... or buy her a car.

It would be an amazingly thoughtful gift and will fill her w/ happiness knowing that you cared so much about her.

But, if you continue to persist in going against her mother's wishes, she will grow to HATE you.

I'm 100% certain of it.

Is that the outcome you want?

I agree w/ everyone else here who's said you need to think more about how your actions are affecting your DS.

I pray that you will hear what they are saying.

But, sadly I doubt you will.

Blood in the water I suppose..

I'm sitting here honestly reeling in shock from a lot of this.

I'm suddenly abusive because I'm trying to do nice things for DSD?

I've been thinking a lot again in the past few days after finding out about the easter basket.. about the savings acct thing, and still have the information I sent for on 529 plans and such for DS and DSD (already have one going for DD)..

I'm fully willing to accept the fact that my relationship with DSD has never been legally binding.

I accept the fact that ranking just under letting WW walk out the door with DS as the biggest stuff-up in my life is wanting to wait for DSD to be old enough to have a say in whether or not I adopted her... but that's just it.. my relationship with DSD the entire time WW and I were together wasn't a legal one.. had nothing to do about that.. and I accept the fact that I'll never see DSD if WW doesn't want me to.. and I accept the fact that DSD will always be 'loyal' to her mom.

What I don't 'accept' is that it's ok play these kinds of games with parental figures in DSD's life.. I don't accept the lie that WW tells that this is DSD's decision not to see me when CLEARLY according to DSD it is not... now.. pointless to be upset about this? Maybe.. but it doesn't make it any less f'd up.



Now.. all that about DSD and how messed up that situation is, and the truth is.. I don't -push- that situation. I occasionally ask how she is doing, and when the kids and I go somewhere special I typically pick up something for her too... Regardless if you want to call it Plan James.. what I have been doing these past few months is the Plan A until the D I talked about with Jennifer and started back in December. Has it been perfect? No.. has it been good? Maybe not... but I've been following my bullet points.. I've been avoiding LB's the best I can.. and in retrospect it's easy to point out the things she's taken as LB's that were never intended that way... the trying to continue to be loving and thoughtful in regards to DSD is a prime example.

And you're right.. if the choice is between not getting a gift from me at all, or watching it be trashed in front of her.. I'd rather her not have to watch such ugliness. So I suppose the gift giving needs to stop...



I'm just still trying to figure out how we've turned my trying to be good to DSD into me being abusive and not caring about my son.

Honestly I don't get it.


I honestly thought I was doing the right things, focusing on my relationship with my DD and DS, being friendly and upbeat when she comes to pick him up, not engaging her/walking away from the ugly exchanges, not chasing after her...

I'm just confused at this point I guess how when and where the right things became abusive..

You seriously expect me -not- to be a little alarmed when you're trying to tell me that I'm hurting my kids, and coloring it in some light like I'm some [censored] who would do that on purpose?

I think that you do get it.

I bet this will be greatly appreciated by her someday. She will know that you never gave up on her, that you never stopped caring about her.


She's 2 young now 2 separate her mom from her mom's awful behavior. And you really don't want 2 villify her mom. What you want 2 do is appeal, subtly, 2 her mom's good side (somewhere deep down inside there's a spark of compassion in there) so that she'll allow the messsage that you care for all your kids the same 2 get through 2 her daughter. But it will take time.


Agreed, but since you know it's pointless 2 be upset about it, you need 2 find a way not 2 be.


Truly, that must be horrible 2 contemplate. I really feel for that little girl. It's like she's the unwitting rope in a tug of war. You simply have 2 let go of the rope, James.

-ol' 2long

The absue comes into play when you do anything contrary to what her parent wishes. You are not her parent and have zero rights to overstep the mothers wishes.

You don't have to like what your stbx is doing with her daughter...you DO need to accept it though. YOu have no power or rights here...that truly sucks, but it is reality.


Anything you do to stir the pot has the ability to trickle down to the kids in a negative way. She doesn't want you to identify yourself as her husband...yet you do so...just to twist the knife. There was lots of stuff in the past too. Bottom line is...and again this sucks...you need to accept the role you are now in(without making waves)...and do so until the court decides to change it. No matter how much it sucks, your wife is not above taking it out on the kids when you do things...so...DON'T do them!



all good things for sure.

Yes, yes, yes.

James, you are smart enough to know that you have more choices than (1) embracing (or pretending to embrace) what's happened or (2) raging against what's happened.

You totally dismissed what I wrote the other day about attachment, apparently thinking it was some facile suggestion to give up on your wife and stepdaughter and get over it quickly. But there's much more to it than that.

Maybe it would help if you asked yourself occasionally how would I handle this situation if I wanted my marriage to end?

GC

James,

Let me tell you about my Aunt.

She has a DIL who has some 'interesting' ideas. One of them is that she doesn't believe that children should receive gifts.

Now one of my Aunt's greatest pleasures is gift giving. So when she became a grandmother she bought her GKs gifts for Christmas and their BDs. She watched her GKs open their gifts w/ the joy and delight that she had hoped they would, only to learn later that the gifts were taken away from them and returned to the store.

So, then she gave them money. But, that too was taken away.

B/c the last thing she wanted to do was bring pain to her GKs, she stopped giving them gifts.

Even if your WW hadn't made a scene w/ your DSD's gift.... if she had pleasantly returned it to you...your DSD would still suffer b/c a gift she probably wanted was taken from her.

Acceptance doesn't mean agreeing w/.

It just means accepting the REALITY of your sitch.

Is it right that your WW is lying about you to DSD? Of course it's not right, James, but there isn't anything you can do about that now. Perhaps you will have the opportunity to correct this lie one day.

But, today isn't the day for it.

Accept the REALITY of it...not the rightness of it.

James,

I never thought you were the villain, only the victim, like the kids are in this mess.

What your stbx has done is criminal, what she continues to do is criminal, that your son was allowed by the judge to be kept in that place away from his family home is criminal...

I didn't fully comprehend or pay attn to what was going on with DSD until just recently, and I am sorry for that or I would have spoken up sooner. I was caught up in the unfairness of it, of the cruelty.

In fact like Marsh, I stopped reading because it was so hard to read...man, so exhasperating.

I apologize for encouraging anything I may have encouraged and shouldn't have.

I wished I'd have saved that post Gray wrote on attachment. It was very good.

James,

In general, I don't think your thought process is off.

I would ask, what are your priorities based on what you recognize your situation to be?

Here are some thoughts:

1) Your mental health. This is critical. Neither of these kids has a chance if you can't keep it together. Every person here would say you are a great dad and a great person. We see it and sense it.

She will destroy you if you let her.

2) Your DS is your top priority. Nothing else is close.

Your WW has proven herself based on her past, her dealings with DSD, you, her extended family, and others that contact her in her day to day dealings with DS. Something is very wrong.

She does not have the best interests of your son in mind.

WB does not have the best interests of your son in mind.

Making it easy on WW and WB likely makes the best of a bad situation. Even so, it is still bad.

DS needs to be with you. Every other option is bad. Fight and fight hard. Get all the help you can. She will make a mistake.

2)Your values.

Always uphold your values. Always teach your Son your values. He needs this now more than ever.

But....know when and how to fight the battle in concert with your other priorities. This is truly a battle.

3) DSD.

Based on the way you and WW structured your marriage, MEDC is correct. You have no rights. When the time is right, read up on Harley regarding second marriages with kids. Don't go into a new marriage the same way. You need to have rights.

So, how do you effect DSD based on having no rights and in the bigger scheme of the situation?

4) Your WW.

She is your WW. You are still married. You have alot more data points now than when you married. You talk about her screwed up sister, how her family doesn't support what is right and wrong, how her dad can't stand her and what she is doing, and what she herself has done to you and her kids. If you knew and really understood these things prior to marrying her you probably would have run.

Nothing is impossible. Stranger things have happened. However, if you use your intelligence, I would put my bets on it being a miracle for her to turnaround. Manage your risk.



To repeat, know when and how to fight the battle in concert with your other priorities. This is truly a battle.

This is what it all ultimately boils down to.


I agree.. and deep down I know that this is right. Enough people saying it enough different ways and yeah.. I guess I get it.

I struggle with this.. because it feels like I'm doing exactly what her dad did 4 years ago.. just walking away..

I promised that little girl that no matter what, I'd never do that to her.

I just know.. was there for what she went through..

It defies every part of me that I can -feel- right now to do this..

I know you're right... this is just SO damn hard..

I'm sorry guys..