Hehe.. I'll have to get through to that thread, don't think it's one I've had the strength to open myself to.

I've been going through SDGuy's and Bugsmom's threads as I pretty much see their long term Plan B's as my probable future.. so I guess I'm gearing myself up to do that once this temporary custody hearing is through.

I'll try reading yours tomorrow.. and yes, I am also 100% certain that what she is doing is -not- God's will.. however, God gave us free will for a reason. So that we can make poor choices and learn from them. Whether my WW chooses to learn from this is entirely on her.. and what lessons she takes away from it are also out of my hands. I have to trust that God will show her the signposts and teach her what she needs to learn.

I simply meant by my statement that I pray that those signposts lead her home.. but if that is not God's will, then I am assured through my newfound resolve in my faith that God has better things in store for me.

While that's comforting enough for me, I take little comfort in what I see in the future for my children. That's really what takes me for dips in the rollercoaster. I know she loves them.. but she obviously doesn't place them in a high enough priority to give them her every effort to provide the most beneficial and nurturing family environment. She honestly believes it will all be better for everyone if 'She is happy'... How someone who presents the image to everyone of being the 'giver' can act so brazenly selfish is beyond me.. but then again.. I'm supposed to be giving up trying to understand WS thinking right? Save myself the trouble and heartache? It's not going to make any sense.. so why bother..

Ahh... I'm learning so much in such a short amount of time. I just hope I retain it all and put it to good use towards recovery.. whether it is my personal recovery, or the recovery of my M.

God's will be done.

Honestly Guy Smiley.. I'd really be suprised if this affair relationship lasts six months once they actually move out of his mommy's house and into a place of their own.

Now.. how long -that- takes is going to be the question..

And she's going to have one ****** of a suprise waiting for her when she goes to get a mortgage on a house even after having been preapproved.

I've found out through my credit report that her preapproval took -my- credit into account... well.. that's not going to happen again when it comes time to actually finance.. and she's probably going to go into high speed wobbles immediately.

She's not the type to take a guy with a swing shift construction job and support -him-.. she's used to having it the other way around.


So yeah.. I'm peeking over the fence still.. I know it isn't healthy.. it's like smoking.. I know it's bad for me but I'm addicted.. still going through withdrawls from my WW.. and probably still alot in the BS fog I've read about on occasion around here.

Give me time.. Don't get me wrong.. I am -very- thankful for the guidance and I -know- in my head that you are absolutely 100% right... maybe I'm simply a masochist at this point.. but I'm already seeing cracks in the dam.. and I as much as it says about the dark side of my character.. I'm going to enjoy watching the walls of Jericho..

Oh wow.. I just got back to read my last post.

Guess I've got some demons to exorcise as well... oy. That last bit was kind of tinged with venom..

Honestly I don't want to see her hurting.. but I think part of me knows deep down that before she learns the lessons she will need to learn to make a real stab at coming home, she -is- going to have to hit rock bottom.. and hit it hard.

I'm pretty sure that's what I meant by the last part of the previous post..

Heh.. going to have to do a better job of examining my motives before typing away..

There is nothing wrong with what you said. I don't think that there is a BS here that didn't feel the way you described. There is some justification in watching that which caused you so much pain fail. I still get a little twing of pleasure each time the xOW makes my H angry. I just want to say...see...that was a smart decision, huh. It's why I feel no need to be vindictive. She is paying him back for his mistake far better than I ever could. And I just get to sit back and watch.

Of course I never say that to him, but it does my heart good just the same. The important part is that if she does come back you never display those feelings to her. That would be an attack and not helpful. Just keep them to yourself. Honestly, I think they are an important part of the healing process.

Just hang in there and make sure you get a front row seat when the walls start to tumble. Basically so you can be first in line to pick up the pieces if that is your wish, but don't be ashamed to enjoy the show also. I think even God enjoys the fall of the wicked, but he is also the first to pick up the pieces and repair the damage. Just food for thought.

Well.. with as little contact as I have with her, I'm not sure I'll even know when it really fails.

It does bug me though a little bit that she's suddenly being pleasant with me. I know it's not something I should give too much thought to, but it's like that itch in the middle of your back that just doesn't go away.

I also know that as she's smiling to my face she's turning the knife in deeper.. still no contact with DSD.. I asked her on the phone the other night and she said no just like all the times before without even asking DSD if she would be willing to talk.. can she just not see how transparent her lies are?

I guess I really know the answer to that question is no.. she honestly believes her reality to be true.. But she's really so much smarter than that.. I guess that's another thing that bugs me.. is how someone so incredibly intelligent can be so terribly stupid.

I was reading the other day.. don't remember where that most people when they cheat, affair down.. basically take on people that are beneath them so that they can feel admired etc... she's in a professional career.. has some -great- kids.. and he's a kid, living at home with his mommy, playing at being me..

I just don't think I've developed the coping skills to really 'let go' just yet. I want to.. I want to have the peace that would come with that.. I guess I just haven't figured out how. I know that I have absolutely no control over the situation.. but the problem solver in me is banging around like a caged animal.. because I know the problems she's identified with me in our marriage are -easily- fixable on my end... and in a lot of ways I've already resolved them for myself.. lasting changes too. I -know- after reading all the basic concepts, making it through SAA and such where it was that we went wrong.. I know that my biggest mistake was that my recreational activities did not include her.. and the policy of radical honesty was not being followed by her.. and in some cases where it came to my EN's not being filled it came to me as well.

One conversation 9 months ago doesn't resolve the problem.. yes, I could have listened better and taken different actions, but if what I was doing didn't fulfill the need she identified for herself.. she needed to -continue- telling me and help me come up with solutions that she felt -would- have made her happy.. Not go and complain to her dad and sister and friend at work etc.. and -CERTAINLY- not go and get those needs filled by someone else outside the M..

I'll own my part of it.. but she's going to have to own hers if any R is going to be successful.. a recovery of our marriage, or a R with Wonderboy..

But that's just it.. she has a very hard time accepting responsibility for her actions.. she's a blame shifter.. always has been.. which I think makes it amazingly easy for her to enter the fog.. and stay in it for a long time.

You lie to yourself long enough.. it becomes your reality.

if you have problems with reading too much into a conversation...remember where her and your son are sleeping every night. That should help put it in perspective. She could laugh, profess ger love for you, seem like her old self...and if she is sharing a pillow with her boy toy...it should all be ignored, it means nothing.

James,



Yes, this is what WSs do. That doesn't mean that the "reality" they created will last - it Won't! One of the hardest things, though, it getting yourself to the point of not thinking about that. Keep on YOUR path. I know it's hard & you will have those times of just beating your head against the wall wondering HOW they could be doing what they are doing. It takes Time to get there. So keep the ice pack handy for those bumps on your head!


Remember, it is 'her' reality. Right now, that does not include seeing the FULL picture of any part of her life, just the parts she wants to see and those that she 'creates'.

Drac actually told me when he and the Ho were "just friends", how he felt so sorry for her because she is a single mom. So, then he turns around and makes me INTO a single mom??!! See what I mean??

Rational thinking does not apply. Not while they are full time in Affairland.

Keep the focus on you and the kids as much as you can. Vent here,,,it's OK. We've all been there - done that, unfortunately!

Have a good day!

Thanks Bugsmom.. I hate that I keep needing these reality checks, but I really do appreciate them.

Sometimes it really feels like I'm in a fog of my own.. complete denial that this is what is -really- happening. Glad to have people here to help keep me grounded.

I know SDGuy would tell me to focus on what IS rather than what I believe SHOULD BE.. and I keep that in my back pocket to look at when things get really tough.


MEDC.. I don't know whether it's trying to read too much into a conversation.. or the notion that one of the changes I have made is getting back to something I was -very- good at in the past, and that is paying attention to detail. I had really stopped paying attention to my wife over the course of our M.. and now when she talks I give my undivided attention.. and have picked up on little things that I really am not sure where to go with them.. Honestly I let a lot of the hurtful things fly by and discount it as fogtalk and let it roll off my back.. but I am aware that to really know where things are going I have to take what nuggets of truth I can find in what she's saying and piece the puzzle together from that.

Then again I'm supposed to be protecting myself from worrying about that if I'm to do even a modified Plan B... still though, it's difficult -not- to look for meanings in things and discern a direction that she's headed in.

You are. I know I was. I went through months of denial, false recovery, and then I fought acceptance kicking and screaming. And I'm just a rookie at this--BrambleRose is the one who thumped it into me until it stuck.


It's incredibly difficult. This is (hopefully) the hardest thing you will ever do. In Plan A it's okay to dissect the Fogspeak to look for hidden meaning. In Plan B, you're supposed to be protecting yourself from it. BR beat this one into me--you want to understand it better so that you can try to control it. But you can't. You will be bringing more unhappiness on yourself.

So, yeah, she's being nice to you. She wants you to be nice to her. In Affairland, the two of you will still be friends. It would lessen the impact of the evil she is perpetrating if everything is all cordial between the two of you. Plus, she could still cake-eat.

Ignore it. Do what the Harleys told you--be nice when you have to interact. Otherwise, try not to think about it. (I know--this is impossible, but it will eventually get easier).

And recognize that you're still on the rollercoaster. You'll be on top of your plan one minute, and the next you will have completely lost focus. That's when you're apt to do something stupid (i.e., instinctively human, but not helpful for your long-term plans).

You know... I had never really thought of the possibility of my WW doing the cake-eating bit..

I mean.. she had thrown up the wall even before she walked out the door.. and made it clear several times that she feels there is -nothing- between us.

I guess I just lose perspective that I'm still -very- early into this.. and chances are, if I were to be friendly.. she may come back to sample the home cooking.. and then back off to fantasyland after she'd had her fill of what I have to offer..

An interesting thought... something that would only likely prolong and deepen my pain and the confusion of my children.. something I can't allow.

So pretty much no contact other than exchanges.. of course I call my kids every night.. and more and more recently she's been jumping on the phone before or after I talk to DS (she still isn't letting me talk to DSD at all)...

If that happens before, I'll just ask to speak with DS.. or tell her I have to go if she hops on after.

I did find something on the boards I've been keeping in my back pocket for when/if she tries R talk with me:

Honey, we both know what has really gone on here. We both know that we love each other. I do not wish to engage in a conversation like this. I have to go now. When you are ready to talk about building a marriage that we both deserve, then I am here.


Dunno if I'll ever need it.. but it's comforting to have it in my back pocket.

And she really wants to believe that, too. If it weren't true, how could she do what she's doing?

Fogspeak hurts if you let it (and even when you try not to). That's why you isolate yourself from it.

I suppose the problem is, I almost feel the same way..

If it weren't true... how could she do what she's doing?

I suppose my greatest fear in all of this is that it really is true. What if I put myself through all of this for nothing?

Is that expectations I'm not supposed to have? Expectation that if I withdraw and let go.. that she will see what she's doing and come back? If I don't have that expectation, what is the point of -not- going straight to Plan FU and torching the bridges?

At the same time, I imagine that the allegations I'm going to be making against her in pursuit of my son are probably going to bury any chances of recovering my M.. something I'm willing to do for my son.. but ultimately erasing any chance of him having the -most- beneficial daily relationship with both mother and father.. and probably eliminating any chance of me ever having anything to do with DSD again..

I can't pull any punches in trying to get my son.. like Mr. W said.. it's an uphill battle at best given the situation.. so I can't afford to leave anything out that I think will benefit my case.

Have you read all the stuff about how romantic affairs work? What happens to the people who are in them and how they react when the luster wears off? There was a great thread by a poster called Hiker. I'll see if I can dig it out for you.

For me, it came down to two possibilities--that the SCQ is either temporarily insane/lost in the addictive fog of adultery or that she is just a despicable human being and managed to hide it for a long time. Some people on here don't buy the whole Fog concept, but I'm a believer.

Yeah.. I've read the stuff man.. and I'm pretty much down to those same two possibilities with the Ice Queen..

Perhaps I'm just going through a period of self doubt. I read one of Schoolbus' posts talking about how the BS goes into cycles of being unable to trust their own instincts and their own inner thoughts because we've proven them to be untrustworthy and it has allowed us to hurt in these inexplicable ways..

I wonder if there isn't something to that here with me..

Perhaps trying to talk myself out of really prolonging this for a potential 2 years waiting for her.. when I could be pursuing my own happiness... then Weaver's words come to mind.. and I know that I will regret it forever if I don't do everything I can possibly do to try and save this family.

Been a rough day folks.. bought a handful of tickets for the rollercoaster I suppose.. time to get off before I pick up my son in an hour.

At least I get to be Dad again tonight, for a while at least.. not the wounded animal afraid of its own shadow..

I like being Dad.. I like putting a smile on my little boy's face.. DD is just so busy with volleyball, swimming, softball.. at 12 she's almost all grown up.. and thankfully too occupied to dwell on the pain of this.. though she and the Ice Queen were never really close.. something I think really bothered her when she was my W...

I dunno.. and that's what gets me. I keep saying I dunno.

In my line of work those two words better be followed up with 'but I'll find out'... in this case though.. I have to wonder if I really will.

James,

One thing I am continuing to hold on to,,, that I haven't really LEARNED well yet myself, is to "ASSUME" nothing. You know what assume means when you break it apart.

We do not KNOW what is going on in the mind or heart of the WW. You can guess,,, but you are coming at it from a realistic, logical point of view. None of that applies to a WS.

It is hard, hard not to do it, but try. If you read about those that have recovered, at the moments when the BS felt like most all was lost, THOSE seem to be the moments that the WS was thinking something totally different.

Plus, it drives us crazy trying to figure things out!

I have gone to CrazyLand enough in the last year that I have total FREE access from all of my frequent flyer miles!

I still make short jumps over there. To that place where I worry and wonder what Drac is doing & thinking. UGH!!

I don't know about the 2 year waiting thing. I know that I deal with each day as it comes. As I told Guy, there ARE infinite possibilies out there for me, but right now I don't want them. When will I want them? I don't know. I don't worry about it.

Enjoy being Dad tonight. You know, I've heard that this Dad guy is a really great guy!! In fact, I know a little one who wants to be JUST like him in every way. A little boy who sees his HERO in you! Bask in that admiration my friend!!

Heh.. I'm glad you think so Bugsmom..

I think DS is starting to grow attached to OM.. which really rips me apart. (No MEDC.. this is not an invitation to pile on about how I need to get him out -now-.. I know this, and we've been through that).. I know DS is still my little buddy and I know in my heart that I'm his hero..

The Ice Queen mentioned tonight at the transfer that she's putting together a Cars themed room for DS.. it's his favorite movie as I think I've mentioned.. says that they've found a place that they like. She accused me of keeping some of the toys he brings home from daycare. I simply told her that I've been letting him bring and take whatever he wants.. haven't really been keeping track.. I figure if he wants it here it's here.. if he wants it there it's there. She babbled something about them trying to build a collection for him and his themed room... whatever.

I'm kinda waiting for the fallout at this point. Though I guess in a way this is kind of a good thing.. -if- they get a place.. then I imagine it'll bring reality that much faster.. and at least she won't have the total validation and support -all the time- of Wonderboy's family.. She'll have to start dealing with bills and closing costs etc.. congrats to her.. welcome to grownup land.

Either that or as I suspect is more likely the case, she'll fall flat on her face when trying to finance.. unless Wonderboy's mom is stupid enough (not putting anything beyond that one at this point) to apply her credit to the issue.. which will make things even messier when/if this all falls apart.

She seems so confident and self assured these days.. and here I am.. getting there.. but it feels like a front. I'm second guessing -everything- at this point.. and I feel completely lost. I'm definitely emotionally behind in this game.. but I'm not giving any outward indication of how fragile I feel right now... at least I don't think I am.

Heh.. I gotta hope you're right Bugsmom.. that when it feels like all is lost, WS is thinking totally different.. I dunno.. it's probably too soon for that.. but I -feel- the light at the end of the tunnel is growing dim. I know once she receives the interrogitories it won't get any brighter either.. I don't figure throwing in her face what a crappy mom she's being is going to be anything -but- a huge LB... *sigh*

Meet with the lawyer tomorrow to finalize our strategy for the temp custody hearing.. still no date yet but hopefully that'll be coming very soon.

I talk with the priest tomorrow night too.. maybe that'll bring some peace. I've never talked to this particular guy before.. but I'm told he's -wonderful- about relationships. I'm kind of afraid though that he's going to tell me to let her go as a result of the infidelity.. Maybe I don't understand Catholicism as much as I thought I did.. I hope I'm wrong.

I have a feeling tonight is going to be one of those nights where I toss and turn.. not really sleep.. I dunno.. but I suppose one way or another I'm going to eventually find out.

Well.. I was wrong.

Oddly enough I slept really good last night. Had a long talk just me and God.. I think I'm finally to a point where the hopelessness has caught up with me enough.. the realization that there is nothing to control here.. that I can really turn everything over to God and trust that whatever the outcome it'll be the right thing.

It's awfully hard to do.. to let go.. I pray I have the strength to stick to the resolve I feel this morning.

I see the lawyer today, which is giving me a little anxiety.. this is so not something I want to be doing. But maybe in a way this is my chance to be completely honest with my W about something I've always hesitated to do.. Of course I'm almost certain she won't see it as constructive criticism of her parenting at this point.. obviously because I'm trying to get my son home.. and away from the life road she's leading him down.

He's such a precious little guy.. so much personality.. so much life in him. I'm not sure either of us are worthy of the love he gives.. but he is ours.. we are the parents God gave to him.. I only hope he takes the lessons we can teach him.. show him the good and the bad, and that he chooses the right path for himself. I pray so hard that God looks after that little boy when I cannot.. I pray the same for my little T-Bug.. God I miss her..

Oddly though, even after the pain of dealing with the Ice Queen last night, I don't remember dreaming of her.. first night in a long time I haven't had a dream about her.. I didn't miss having her in my arms this morning either.. just got up and took care of what I needed to take care of.

It's odd.. I posted last night feeling hopeless.. I woke up this morning.. feeling.. well.. nothing.

Not sure what this means.. not sure I really ought to spend much time thinking about it.. just be thankful that it doesn't hurt right now.

Maybe this is the comfort God has for me.. that will allow me to keep my patience, my faith, my love for my wife, and my sanity for my children.

I love and miss my family.. but in a strange way, that's not in the front of my mind today.. at least not right now.

Just an empty space.. calm... tranquil.. I'd honestly like to stay in this space for a while..

James,

Arriving at a different place this morning that you expected to is not unusual. Roll with it - - - it's part of the ride. We both know it will change, and that's ok.

Let us know how it goes with your attorney today. No, it's not what you want to do, but you will get through it.

{{{James}}}

If you get some peace, enjoy it. Like Bugsy says, roll with it. There will still be plenty of ups and downs. It's still early for you.

Thanks you two.. anxiety has been building all day.

I guess I'm looking at this visit with the atty as a point of no return.

I know that once she receives the answers to the interrogitories that she's going to be -extremely- agitated... and probably out for blood.

Some things said and done, cannot be undone.. and I think that's what we're going to see here. Of course.. the major alligation that she will have a problem with I can simply say is a primary concern of mine towards being the most active parent I can possibly be in her childs life as well as our childs life.

Not sure how this will play exactly, but I know she's going to be seeing red in a couple of days.. and I guess I have some expectations of a confrontation to result.. so there's some more anxiety I suppose.

My response though is going to be simple... it doesn't have to be this way. This is not what I choose to do, but what I have to do to protect my son.. my family. That is my job as his father.. I've been fired from my job as a husband.. but nobody can take away my job as a father unless I allow them to.. and I will not allow that to happen.

Anxiety is the word of the day.. I know this will be an uphill battle.. and I'm sure there will be a lot of LBs on her end as a result of percieved LBs on mine from the answers.. but I will do the best I can to insulate myself from them.

Course.. it'll stop the 'playing nice' that she's been doing I imagine.. it was easier to close myself off emotionally when she was being venomous I think.. just confusing when she's making nice.

Guess we'll find out.. not going to say I dunno anymore.