Forbidden fruit results in many a bad jam.

lol

That hung on my dinig room wall for decades...can't believe how long it took me to figure it out.

J, you said: Is it so wrong to want the apple tree and all of the responsibilities of caring and nurturing its growth along with the reward of having the apples too?


Well that's kind of a deceitfull phrase...maybe even self deceiving.

Well J...as a matter of fact it IS wrong to want the tree if the tree isn't available for the wanting.

The tree in your case had a husband she wasn't really clear of and a very foggy and immature/unrealistic way of perceiving the world which made her not really READY and not HEALTHY ENOUGH to be anyones wife.

Yes, it IS a bad decision to take someone in that position and try to make a life with them. You can't nurture or rescue them from that. Trying to necessarily results in a parent/child relationship which ultimately results in rebellion.

So is what you're saying basically that it's hopeless to marry anyone who has been previously divorced?

I'm saying that in my belief when you willfully engage in an adulterous marriage you are making poor choices that are deliberately defiant of gods expressed will.

I'm saying that when you engage in sex with a woman who is not your wife you become vulnerable to emotional attachments and circumstances [pregnancy for example?]that cloud your judgement and skew your perception.

From a distance it is very obvious that there were numerous unanswered questions and unresolved issues going IN to this marriage. It is therefore not suprising that it failed extravagantly and quickly.

You are asking this marriage to support way beyond the reality of it's structural capacity.

This marriage is VERY affairlike in it's design.

It is built on feelings, not principles..in fact the principles condemn it.

I am saying that in my opinion you would be wiser to change course and repent than to insist on having your way here and continue to pursue this obviously bad decision.

I would advise focussing on custody and personal growth.

OK...I missed something here.

How is Jamesus's marriage an "adulterous one"? I tried scanning quickly back through his posts and missed whatever it was that triggered this conlcusion.

Custody and personal growth are what I'm focusing on. I feel like I'm just at the beginnings of Plan A with trying to work on busting up this affair. If the conversations this week are any indication of the walls in her fantasy world starting to crumble, I'm not going to give up hope just yet.

I understand the very complete Christian viewpoint you espouse here, and the concept of no sex before marriage.. actually we stopped having sex for about 8 months while we went through the pre-marriage counciling.. it was difficult but we decided that it was very much worth denying ourselves so that we can focus on eachother.

I think where we disagree is whether or not sex before marriage is acceptable. I'm not liable to change my viewpoint on that so we may have to agree to disagree.

I do however take issue that this was built on feelings rather than principle. That's actually one of the things I have the most problems with in the whole affair.. is that the relationship and love that ensued was founded on the fact that we were both already parents and didn't have time for the bullpucky mindgames and things that go along with immature relationships.. we had too much at stake, ourselves and our kids to spend time in a relationship that was not completely faithful and honest. Principles that she doesn't seem to care about right now, but that used to be central to her beliefs.

Like I said... the person I'm describing to you is not my W... she is my WW... she -is- posessed by the devil right now.. and until the time the devil's illusion wears off she is lost to me. I have accepted that. I can only be the light in the darkness.. home.. and she can choose to come to it, or shun it. But the light is burning brightly for her, but even more importantly, it burns brightly for our son.. my stepdaughter, and my daughter. It's been hard to keep it bright amidst the emotional turmoil I've been going through.. but my strength has always been them.

Sorry james...but it is yur wife. Possession by the devil is not the issue here and really that is just a way to make her behavior more acceptable. Think about it for a minute...
she did this before to someone else. She then absconded with his child and went somewhare no one could find her. Good people do not do that. Was she possessed then too? Then the devil left...and came back again.
Sorry, it just adds up that this is a woman devoid of character and class....and her behaviors have been consistent over the years.

I think this thread is off the rails if we're coming down on someone's marriage because he and his wife had sex beforehand. I said IF. I know there were other circumstances... the woman was not clear of her first marriage.

The situation is at least ambiguous, but in any case this woman was too close to the end of her previous relationship and probably did not have her head screwed on right when this marriage began.

Jamesus wrote this:

she claims that she's already gone through the grieving, the anger, and the sadness, and is past it now (more fog I'm sure).

You've got that right. But I think it's more than just "fog". She's never "gone through" anything all the way without moving on to something else first, sounds like.

I think this is a very common behavior, bouncing from one relationship to another without grieving the end of any of them. In my opinion relationships with people who conduct themselves this way do not have much chance of holding together.

My completely unprofessional and under-informed analysis:

This woman is unhappy. When she feels this way she finds someone to fall in love with and her unhappiness is temporarily overshadowed by in-love feelings.

The in-love feelings go away when the relationship settles in, the unhappiness bubbles up, the current partner gets blamed for it, and it's on to the next victim.

Kind of vampire-like.

Even the husband and wife she is staying with have recovered their marriage and both say it is better having had to fight for it..

Why are you are having conversations with these people? They're hosting an affair in their house, threatening you, assaulting you, ... sheesh!

Jamesus, it sounds like you need to turn up the gain on your radar that detects when people are stepping on you. I don't think it's sensitive enough.

GC

J, I believe the definition of an adulterous marriage is one in which your wife ran off from her H without a Biblical
reason, eg adultery, abuse. Because she didn't have Biblical recourse, she continues to commit adultery, and she causes you the same since her union with you can't be blessed. Sex before marriage is frowned upon in the Bible
and considered immoral and sinful, and I don't know where,but the scripture says that if you have sex with a woman, you must marry her.

I will expect corrections if any of this is incorrect, lest I carry an untrue message.

I am in my second marriage, as is my H. Our x-spouses were both abusive and committed adultery. It was OK to divorce on those grounds, and our present marriage would be blessed in the eyes of God.

Well.. the situation just became a little more twisted.

Still have not heard from my lawyer.. and she has withdrawn my son from daycare today..

Call the Finest.

And if your lawyer doesn't raise the roof, fire him.

Fight Fight Fight.

GC

James...as we disussed the other day...protect your child.
I have asked this question several times since our phone conversation...
Have you contacted child services?
Why did you give the child back on Sunday?

It seems to me that while you are not creating the drama in this mess...that you are enabling it by some questionable decision making.

I didn't know legally where I stood to be able to make the decision to keep my son after last night.. I've been trying to get ahold of my lawyer all day, but apparently he doesn't check his messages until after 3... I've got the name of another lawyer in town that I know will fight this battle..

DID YOU CALL CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES?????????????

IF YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LEGALITIES OF GIVING YOUR SON BACK...THEN ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION AND KEEP HIM WITH YOU.

I don't know.

A couple of more days of denying him visitation and hiding his children from him will just about solidify his case for Parental Alienation.

Looking at the big picture....why win a battle when you can win the war. Protective services should be called if YOUR attorney thinks they should. A ill-advised call to them will make YOU look bad in court too. Courts don't care about adultery that much (depending on the judge) they care only about the kids best interest. Like I said, her actions this week are very much against her legal interests. Pre-empt them to fast and she just may get counsel and correct them before it's too late for her.

MDEC is right. But the court might not agree...UNFORTUNATELY.

Be smart and calculated.

Mr. W

Be smart and calculated....

I'm trying Mr. W... I got to talk to my lawyer last night on the phone.

He says to hang tight until we get a judge. I asked if I should file charges against the friend from work's husband and he said that I'd be testifying to it in court anyway and it'd still come down to my word against his. He believes that pressing the issue there would just make things litigious and may reflect poorly on me.

I have yet to call child protective services, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable with leaving my son in the care of my WW's OM and/or the man who threatened me.

WW told me on the phone last night that she did not withdraw my son from daycare, and would be dropping him off there on the days I'm supposed to have him, and then coming to pick him up. Stepdaughter is no longer going to be joining my son on visitation. The odd thing is that when I called the daycare yesterday they told me that she had called and told them that he would no longer be coming... they have documented that for me and I'll be going to pick that up tomorrow.

I feel like my whole world is slipping away.. I'm trying to do things the right way, not limit my chances of getting my son at the end of this... she's got an entire law office around her to help her and dispite reading the guidelines from the state website and how this is supposed to progress through the courts, I still feel like I'm in the passenger seat of a car with no driver hurtling 80MPH down the freeway..

Todays journal update:

09/11/2007: Spoke with son on the phone last night, he seems well. Says he played with his cars in the living room of Coworker’s house with ‘daddy’ OM all day. It breaks my heart that my children are so confused, but I can’t really fault them for it, I’m sure it’s a very confusing situation for my son to no longer have his home, his own room, or even being able to comprehend that there is suddenly a man in mommy’s life that isn’t Dad. WW said on the phone tonight that she had a long talk with Stepdaughter and has decided that Stepdaughter is very angry with me for wanting custody of my son, and doesn’t want to come see me or talk to me on the phone. It tears me up inside that she’s using the children now as weapons to try and hurt me or goad me into anger and saying something I’ll regret. I’ve been the only father Stepdaughter has known for the last 3 years, she loves me and thinks of me as her dad, I shudder at the thought of her going through the pain of feeling abandoned by another father figure in her life. I wish there was something I could do to help Stepdaughter as well, but I have no legal rights to her.

Spoke with my lawyer last evening after work, and he advised me that it was up to me if I wanted to file charges against coworker's husband, but it would be moot as I would be speaking to that effect in court anyway. As such will hold off on contacting the police or CPS with my concerns.

your attorney's advice is wrong IMO...sorry for being so forward about that. I am going to have to bow out of this situation Jamesus since I do not understand how you are able to sit back and only watch as your son is removed from his home and put in a bad situation. I am just baffled at your lack of effort right now.
NO ONE... and I mean NO ONE would ever take my son from my home without a fight from me.
I think you need to ask yourself why you have been so passive when it comes to your child's welfare.
I will take leave of this now and wish you the best.

Lack of effort? I want to do anything I can to get my son out of that situation. But what legal basis do I have for keeping him from her?

First of all, your WW lied about how your stepdaughter was feeling. Got that? I'm sure she told stepdaughter about how you don't want to see her anymore.

Secondly, it is time for a different lawyer with a more bulldog attitude. Your lawyer is too passive. Find someone who is going to go to battle for you. The longer you wait, the worse your chances are.

JAMES....the same legal basis she has to keep him from you. Has a judge said your son should be with her????

Legal basis....you are HIS FATHER.