J,

Just real quick, I wanted to remind you, just because a WS says something doesn't make it so! WSs often make all kinds of GRANDIOSE plans,,,,it doesn't mean they are based in REALITY at all. In fact, they seldom are.

Hang in there! Keep fighting the good fight!

Thanks Bugsmom..

I know you've gone through a lot of these same things.. so I guess not getting a 2x4 from you this morning makes me feel a little better at least.

I don't doubt that she's really trying to do this. I do know for sure that she doesn't really think these kinds of things through logically even before the A.. But she -hates- being denied this sort of fantasy.. and if -if- that 25 year old kid has any sense about him he's having second thoughts about 'what the ****** am I getting into.. she wants to get a house with me after we've been together a month??'... I'm pretty sure based on some of the things he's said, that to him, my wife is just a pretty piece of a$$.. almost certainly not worth this kind of trouble..

I could be wrong though.. course I also can't fathom her co-worker friend enabling this with her son... I mean, her husband cheated on her a year ago.. how she can't see what is going on and apply the screws to her son is beyond me. If it were my kid I'd be doing everything in my power to influence him to run far, run fast from this.. In a way.. I almost feel sorry for the piece of excrement.. but in the next breath I almost want him to get what he deserves and gets left holding the bag on a 80K house with his 'swing shift road construction' gig.. it'd almost be justice.. short of leprosy that is..

Ok.. almost a whole day.. no 2x4's yet.. but no insights on some of the talk/fogtalk with the WW.

Should I even -try- to talk to her at this point? Seemed like we made some progress.. but then again I'm thinking she just took away the 'he's an arrogant ****** and there's no way things will ever work out' from it all.. still.. there were cracks in the wall she threw up when she walked out.. I almost feel like the resolve is slipping.. not mine, hers.. maybe I should just step back for a while.. keep working on getting my son and see how it plays out.

James:

Are you being the safe place for her?

She thought you were being arrogant because you didn't call her a "cheating piece of [censored]." Which is what she expected.

Good Job.

Keep it up.

And she wants to buy a house with the other guy.

Well think about it. Must be alot of fun living in that house now isn't it?

After a month she wants to move out. She lived with you for 4 years, so, you were MUCH BETTER...

Provide the alternative. The happy alternative.

Yes, she only remembers the "bad Times"

But, you can show her that you are BETTER.

OK?

LG

No.

There's no point. And the long emails/letters--I wrote them, too, but there's no point. Write them for yourself if you need to, but then put them in a drawer or burn them or whatever. She can't hear what you're trying to say from you or probably anyone else. All you can do is LB--give her the opportunity to nitpick out some DJ that she can use against you (in her own mind, if nothing else).


This is your reality. This is what took me so long to process and made me miserable.

Are you in Plan B yet? I think you should be.

And remember, it's a marathon, not a sprint.

Since you seem 2 need a 2x4, I'll get out my old doubly-laminated ebony 2x4 and thwack you upside the haid...

Look. I don't know much of your sitch, just that you seem 2 be having a lot of conversations with the alien of late - the alien who's out 2 take your son away from you - and you're giving her the ammunition she needs!


No, you should not even -try- 2 talk 2 her at this point.


Yes, you should just step back for a while. Like, a PLAN B while! And make sure that you "work" on getting your son with your lawyer or some intermediary. Don't talk 2 her.

-ol' 2long

FORE!!!!

Mind if I play through??? I don't have a 2x4 but I do have a wedge in my hand. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I wanted to say "What 2L said", he's right, back off.

Do your talking to your lawyer IF you get one that is good and responsive. I am not so sure about the one you have now. As for the fog, let her look. She cannot buy anything until you are divorced OR you will have to sign with her, not likely I am thinking. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Document, get bills from daycare, do the whole thing and play to win. You win your family back, OR you win more time with your S and the losing part she will take care of.

You have made your points, you have told her the door is open. Now leave the door open but get to work with the lawyer. With apologies to Mr. W and others, nothing throws water on a good fantasy party like communications from someone's lawyer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

LG - I'm trying to be the safe place for her.. I thought maybe we could try to negotiate with eachother a more amicable agreement about our son without dragging him through the courts. Pretty nieve of me to think she'd actually care about what he's going through enough to look past the child support check she's going to need to pay on a mortgage... She's pretty bent right now. Heh.. and you're probably right.. the last few times we talked before that I kept hitting my head against the affair and made some pretty nasty AO's... She got her's out the other night though.. I'm actually kind of glad she vented to me.. of course she sees everything as me blaming her.. I simply explained that I'm not absolving myself for the problems in our marriage.. but to end it, and put our children through this was not my choice.. it wasn't my choice to take them from their father and suddenly introduce a new guy in their lives.. maybe she was looking for anger in that and was trying to draw me out...

Of course.. I kind of look at it this way.. I was a pretty self confident person (what she sees as Arrogant A$$) when we met.. there's a funny story of the first night she came to one of my gigs in there that I may tell sometime.. was our first meeting.. so to recall it now is a little too painful and would probably trigger me at work if I think too much on it.. can't have that just now.

SDGuy - Thanks for coming and posting on my thread. What you've been through is truly inspirational to me. I'm not sure -I'm- ready yet to go to the dark place that is Plan B.. and I certainly don't want her to be able to show in court that I'm not the reasonable parent in this situation.

I remember reading about your attempts to negotiate and how you felt that it left you a little better off on the 'business' end of the D process. I guess I'm just trying that myself.. even though I know it hurt your Plan B. Guess I just keep thinking that if she and I can start talking again.. (which was one of the main problems in our marriage) that it might stir some feelings within her.. but I guess the Plan B veteran I've spent so much time reading about probably knows better.. thanks for the knock on the head. I'm not ready for Plan B.. but you're right.. I need to pull back and keep the cards close to my chest. No DJ's and SD's.. gotta stop LBing and let whatever seeds I may have planted take root. Need to stop thinking about her all the time and how much I love and miss her... Marathon, not a sprint.. I used to be a 500 meter swimmer in High School.. maybe that disciplined mentality is what I need to take into this.. course I'm sure you know with a D looming over everything.. things 'feel' sort of urgent.

2Long - Thanks for the thwack.. I really did need one.. and you're probably right. Just don't know if I'm ready for Plan B yet.. I didn't do a very good Plan A and I'm afraid that the bad taste left in her mouth is going to linger and keep getting processed through the crazy machine.. course I'm probably not helping things along very much having these long conversations and sending emails either.. I think I'll step back.. let her step up to the plate and take some swings if there's any real inclination there to continue conversing and trying to work on problems.. if I do engage, I'll keep my cool like the other night and let her do most, if not all of the talking.. I'll just listen.


JL - Wow.. heh, I guess that's a new way to approach being t'd off <G>. I think you're right and I am going to start communicating through my lawyer.. I know that'll set her off.

Mr. W is probably about the only lawyer other than mine that I want to hear from right now... heh.. good peoples.

Update from last night..

Picked DS up from daycare and joined DD at her Volleyball game. DSD did not come home on the bus to my house again, no suprise.. I miss her terribly though. WW did say however on the phone the other night that she's 1 grade away from honor roll according to her midterms.. this is great. Can't tell you how hard I worked with and how extremely proud I am of that little girl over the past 2 years trying to build solid study habits.. of course WW takes full credit for the last month.. go figure.

Transfer at 8:30PM went uneventfully.. WW waited outside while I got DS and his things together, hugged him tightly and told him that I'd see him next week (that's what sucks about all of this.. the weekends I don't get him I have to wait a whole week to see him again). She called from her Co-Worker's cellphone about 9 minutes later trying to light into me about feeding our DS because he said he was hungry when they pulled in to get food (at 8:40 at night!?!? gah we never fed our kids that late at home.. and it just tells me that they aren't eating together.. just living on the fly.. so irresponsible)... explained to her that he had a banana when he got home from daycare, half a bag of popcorn at DS's game, a cheeseburger at McD's afterwards where he got to play inside a little bit since it was rainy out, and ate almost a whole apple when we got home. She's nuts if she thinks I don't feed him... heck, I've been the only one of the two of us up to now who put food in his mouth other than this past month and when she was breastfeeding... the gall of that woman..

Otherwise.. had a good evening, had a pint of Guiness (trying to finish off the beer my brother and sister in law brought up from St.Louis on their recent 'beerfest' trip..) and read more of the Fathers Rights book that was recommended to me by MEDC.. good stuff in there for fathers who need it.. also going to finish up reading SAA and HNHN this weekend probably after dealing with the 30 page Discovery papers her lawyer sent over.. got to have those done and back to her by the 10th..


Busy weekend planned going over the 'business' side of the marriage I guess. I'm almost afraid of all the triggers and how angry I'm going to be going through the credit card statements... she's completely fiscally irresponsible.. and we've got mountains of debt to show for it... and you'd be right to thwock me upside the head again and ask why I never put my foot down...

been a doormat for too long... gotta get back to being -me-.

Jamesus, I haven't posted to you before. In fact, I just read your thread. IMHO, you are being way too easy on your WW AND your attorney. I've been in the legal field for a long time. (paralegal for 15+ years and now a legal secretary for the past two years) and I somewhat know how this works. Mr. W (along with some others) has given you some excellent advice.

It’s time to play hardball. Do you want your son back? The way things are going, you’re going to end up getting screwed big time. The longer you let your son stay in the environment he’s in, the harder it’s going to be to get him back. He is NOT in a healthy environment. Your WW placed him there but you’re allowing it to continue.

Get on the phone with your attorney and DEMAND that he seek an emergency hearing. Your attorney says that the child has to be in eminent danger. He is. The rule of thumb is “in the best interest of the child.” Document all your concerns in an affidavit to go with the emergency motion (i.e., where the child sleeps, who baths him, who drops him off, is he ever left alone with OM.) If your current attorney won’t do what you tell him to do (he DOES work for you) then get another attorney who will act. Your time is running out. You will be divorced soon. Existing temporary orders will be made permanent since… gee, dad never objected.

You didn’t press charges against the guy who assaulted you but you should have. It’s not to late to file a report. Include that report in your affidavit as an exhibit. That along with this man bathing your son should be enough for the judge to take this seriously and award you at least temporary custody.

Her calling you about not feeding your son is a red flag. With her also being in the legal field, she may be “building a case” against you and preparing to blindside you with it. Why do you think she’s looking for a house “all the sudden.” She’s up to something.

Get proactive man. Quit trying to reason with this woman. She's not a reasonable person.

Thanks..

Atty is out today (called earlier this morning).. We haven't even gotten a judge for the D or temp custody thing yet. My lawyer and hers can't seem to agree on one, and it's already gone out of the county... frustrating.

My Atty is doing the best he can with what I've provided him with. I've got a stack of stuff I need to take over there at this point, and finish the Discovery stuff this weekend. I -am- going for Temp custody of my son.. and yes, it's killing me that it's taking so long to get there, but I want to do this right.

I think my lawyer is the right guy.. had a talk with him last week and left encouraged that I am doing the right things..

But ultimately the last line in your post is the truth that I'm having a hard time swallowing... It's just that to stop trying with her feels like giving up hope..

I know that's not the case and SDGuy of all people can feel free to club me to death with a 2x4 for that, but it's how I -feel-... guess it's my own perception of reality. Maybe I need to read his posts about 'letting go' again.. those made sense to me.

Hard part is that it's only been a month.. conversation is one of her big EN's that I wasn't meeting, and now that she's talking... I keep thinking that it may be Plan A-ish.. but at the same time I wonder what she's really taking from the conversations and putting through the crazy machine.. I'm certainly receiving no encouragement that it's changing her resolve.. and of course we've been avoiding talking about the A.. which is really the problem NOW... not saying our marital problems weren't there, or are insignificant, or even that I'm not at least half responsible for them... but her perceptions are totally skewed... revisionist history... her door is closed... blah blah..

You guys are right.. I don't want to be resistant to what you guys are telling me.. I know you're trying to help, so I also know that you guys understand why every fiber of my being is screaming to try and be... nice.. even though my head knows that I have to make this as difficult as possible for her.

That's fine. You can be as nice to her as you need to be when you communicate. Let your attorney do the hard stuff. When she wants to discuss the divorce, custody, etc. you just respond with, "You know I don't want this so I'm not discussing any terms of the divorce with you any more. Let's let our attorneys deal with this."

You can continue to Plan A her without having to talk about the legal stuff. In fact, you are involved in a lawsuit. You should not be discussing ANYTHING about it with her. She is the opposition. She'll just use what you say against you. Especially anything you put in writing.

The stuff about the assault. Why do you think paralegal mom was on the phone to you the next day? She KNOWS it was assault. Just guessing here, but I'd be willing to bet that paralegal mom is running this show... advising your wife... etc.

The whole point of MB is to "build marriages". It's hard to do when you're involved with drama everyday. What you can do is make yourself and your home a better choice whenever you get the chance.

Are you sure about the Judge thing? I’ve never heard of attorneys agreeing on a Judge. If venue was transferred to another court, isn’t there a Judge already assigned to that court. Are you sure you’re not talking about agreeing on a “mediator”?

You're not helping her financially other than the CS are you? If you are, stop it. You're only enabling her affair with wonderboy. My thoughts about him can't be written here. Let's just say he's a real prize if he's still living at home with mommy and screws his married girlfriend in their home. Sorry, but it is what it is. Says alot about his family as well, the fact that they allow it. And your son lives there???

I'm rooting for ya Jamesus. Praying for you too. I'm praying that God allows WW to fall and to fall hard.

Exactly.

James, your continued comfort with this attorney and your unwillingness to get your son back home NOW is going to hurt you...and by proxy, your child, in the long run. IMHO, you are playing the game exactly the way her lawyer and your WW would have it played. Each and every time you ALLOW your son to go to that place...YOU are telling the court that there is no danger there. IF there is...SURELY you would not have allowed it.

Now you have heard the same thing from a person with vast legal experience.

Every situation is different. That the SCQ was willing to negotiate directly with me is unusual, I think. I think she feels guilt and is trying to be as fair as possible--she never tried to get more than 50% custody. It was an angle for me to exploit, so I did. I don't see that opportunity in your situation, and attempting to create it where it doesn't exist is Definitely against your interests.

I wouldn't worry too much about how good your Plan A has or hasn't been. What you need to worry about most is not making it worse. Graycloud had some great thoughts about WW's--she has switched allegiances from you to the OM, and until that changes she probably *can't* see any of the good things that you do. One of the last things Jennifer told me is that if the SCQ comes back, it won't be because of anything that I do.

The situation that your WW is heading into is so stupid that you need to just let it play out. Listen to the people who have been urging you to get custody of your kids back. Start playing hard ball. Think about getting a new lawyer.

Toughen your resolve and start working at least a modified Plan B. I wouldn't give her the letter because she might use it against you in court (MrW had some great advice along these lines), but cut yourself off from the alien.


Read this every day. Every hour if you have to. YOU CAN'T FIX THIS.

Have you consulted with the Harleys? This is the most specific advice I'm comfortable giving--talk to them to get a firm plan.

Right on both counts guys...

Completely unreasonable.. going to have to keep telling myself that.. usually it comes out in the form of 'She's lost her $&$& mind.. what is she thinking?'... while I really can't worry about that too much right now.. you guys are right.. it's all about getting my son home with me where he belongs.

When I do talk with my lawyer tomorrow I'm not going to ask advice anymore.. it's time to act.. at the very least get some documentation in a letter (unenforcable I know) demanding no less than 50% time, and a statement that says that I am -very- uncomfortable with the OM spending any time alone with my son (IE him being left there instead of daycare and him taking my kid to daycare on the days he goes)

heh... doing better.

She sent the following email:

When can I expect you to have DSD's things together? She has been asking about her things and if you could have it all ready for me to pick up on Wedneday, I would really appreciate it.


My response:

Please specify what it is that she wants, and I'll be happy to put something together.


------------------

Guess we'll wait and see if she just says 'everything' which is a good indicator and I'll have documentation that she's cutting me off from DSD at that point.

I imagine she was looking for another long emotional email.. not going to feed the crazy machine anymore.. nuh uh.

Thanks to you guys for 'setting me straight'

TELL her in a email that you want your son back home.

Something like this...

Dear WW,

I am contacting you to inform you that I want our son back in his home. You can visit him and come back here any time that you like, but he is NOT to stay at the home of your affair partner or his parents. I am exceptionally uncomfortable about this situation on several fronts including the fact that you have removed our child from his home and have put him in the care of people that I do not even know. This results in my worrying about his well being and his safety.


James...maybe you should wait for a lawyer...but I see nothing wrong with this communication. Also, you can decide to not give him back the next time he comes to your house. remember that each time you do that...you are giving your seal of approval as to where he is going.

I'll run that past my lawyer tomorrow..

I'm not going to initiate any further contact with her without consulting him first.

James. this is my post and your reply from 20 days ago. 20 days. 1/18 of a year. Fight it out in the end James??? How much longer...months...a year...you are going to lose him if you do not act with a sense of extreme urgency.

When I spoke with you on the phone weeks ago, I advised you to go to the courthouse that very day...20 days James.

You need to maintain your resolve and do what is necessary...not be determined today and passive tomorrow. There is nothing more important in your life than this issue...you should be knocking on every door at the courthouse until you find someone to help you. Keep your resolve James...tell .... TELL your lawyer tomorrow that you want your child home immediately and to do everything to make that happen. If he redirects you...repeat yourself or tell him you will find another attorney that has his son's best interest at heart.

Message received.. loud and clear.