I agree.. it's been too long.

I believe I'm doing everything I can do to get this done and done right.

I'm sorry you don't agree.

I'm glad you're concerned, and I am glad that you are keeping a sense of urgency about me in this.. believe me, I feel it every day. No.. this is -not- happening fast enough for me, and my lawyer knows that, and is getting a reminder today.

I have been advised by my lawyer against doing the things you are advising me to do. I know you and my lawyer do not agree on this, and you are emphatic in your feelings. I appreciate that, but I feel after talking to other people who have been through this in my town, that my guy is the best guy to go up in front of this particular judge that he and my W's lawyer have agreed upon.. and win. That's the ultimate goal MEDC.. to win my son and get him -home- and be able to keep him there.

It is taking -monumental- patience to allow this to continue with my son in that environment.. but I cannot risk losing the war just to win a few battles.

I started today feeling pretty good about how I handled the situation with my WW last night.. I know that isn't your problem and you don't want to see me get back together with her.. but I came here for help with my M.. and I understand that my son -does- come first.. but I am -still- standing beside my family and trying to save my M so that I can have my son and DSD -EVERY- night.. and rebuild the relationship I once had with my W who I -do- love, cherish, and adore.. and promised my life to. I want her to be involved in their lives -EVERY- night as well.. but moreso, I -want- her to _WANT_ to stay married, and I want her to _WANT_ to do the things necessary to build a new marriage on the ashes of the one she's slashed and burnt.

You can call her evil.. and yes.. right now she is acting that way. But I'm telling you.. -this- is not the person I married.. looks the same.. smells the same.. but she is -NOT- the woman who put her family and her children first -every- day anymore... Her Dad and Sister are very angry with her for this decision and aren't making it easy on her, I know this despite what she tells me.. DSD's grandparents obviously do not approve of this decision and are making it difficult.. and I -know- she is conflicted about this but has an entire family around her that isn't hers that is validating and encouraging her to act in this terrible way.

It's madness.. and yes.. my kids are caught up in it.. I understand that is your concern and that is why I understand your anger and frustration. I feel it too.

I am learning new depths of patience, not only for this stupid legal process.. but also for my W.. I know she will come around one day and see what it is she really walked away from... and I know some part of her will long to have it back. Now I can't answer the question of if I have the stamina to stick it out that long.. but I know I can outlast wonderboy.. if nothing else, for my kids.

I also have to accept the possibility that I may lose this litigation process, and be relegated to a diminished role in my son's life.. Do I like thinking about that.. no.. but I have to be as strong as I can and fight as hard as I can for him.. without playing tug of war with him in the middle.

Ok.. I screwed up I think.

DSD's school called today as I was on my way home from work.
DSD missed her bus and they needed someone to come pick her up.

My mistake: I told them I was on my way. They asked if I had current contact information for my W, and I told them where she worked, but that I didn't have her contact numbers handy. They thought this was odd so I explained the situation to them. Advised them that I was on my way unless W objected. They called the Ice Queen and sure enough.. I get a call back from the school stating that I am not to pick up my DSD, and that the IQ will be coming early from work.

Missed opportunity.. [censored] me for being honest.

James,

I won't lie to you, Yes, you screwed up. You had the perfect opportunity to see and talk to DSD and you blew it.

What's done is done, you can't change it now. Too bad you weren't using you WS mentality,,,,lie by omission comes second nature to them. (sorry, poor attempt at humor).


BUT, I do have a thought - - - - Is WW usually at work when DSD gets off her bus? What if you were to be there today when she got off her bus? Take her a special "I miss you" stuffed animal for her to keep. Tell her how much you miss her! What's to stop you?

Well... she gets off the bus at the wacko house now. She no longer gets off the bus in front of my house.

It's been made clear that I'm not welcome there.

I do have an in though.. my neighbor's daughter plays with DSD at recess every day. He's made the offer for me to pass notes to DSD that way. I haven't taken him up on that yet because I'm really not comfortable using my DSD's best friend as a messenger.. but I'm starting to warm to the idea actually.

James,

Who is home at the wacko house when she gets off the bus?

Does she get off RIGHT in FRONT of the house, or perhaps down the street a bit like my DD does?

It's PUBLIC street! You are the PUBLIC. Unless it's right in front of the house and you think whoever is home would make a horrible scene (which you may be surprise what they will/won't do of IQ isn't there), I say go for it.

WHAT do you have to lose?

I have a lot to lose.. Ice Queen's ex husband came from Ohio to Indiana looking for her.. tracked her down and she brought up stalking charges.

Something I can't afford at this juncture.

It's the same reason I haven't showed up at DSD's gymnastics.

Friend of mine who has been keeping me afloat at work asked how I was doing this morning.. here's what I told her.. I think it's pretty accurate about where my head is at right now about my M.
--------------------------------------
Yeah... honestly standing back and being quiet is filling me once again with anguish..

I long to have -some- contact with her, even if it is negative... but I know it -will- be negative and I'll just end up withdrawing in pain rather than with compassion and love.

I'm starting to examine my own motives for things that I'm doing.. and in subtle ways she is right.. I am lecturing her.. trying to 'straighten her out'.. but I can't do that.. I can't make her see my point of view.. She knows in her heart that this is wrong.. and I think that she knows that I love her deeply and am trying to be the man she wants me to be. I can't show her.. she must look for herself and see.. I can't tell her, she must tell herself.. I can't straighten her out.. only she can right this wrong.. and she must choose it.

While that is what I -want-.. it is what she wants that matters to her, and to that end, I've done enough damage over the past month and a half to prolong her justifications likely for a few months more.. which means we will fight in court.. and I will likely burn every opportunity to have her back by publicly making her out to be a bad mother... which she certainly has become over the past month and a half. I will never say that she does not love her kids, or wants what she thinks is best for them, but her justifcation of 'if I'm happy, the kids will be happier' doesn't hold water.. the kids would be happiest with a mom and a dad who have the level of commitment to eachother to work out the honestly rather minor problems in their marriage.. and commit to making eachother happy, and in turn commit together to making their childrens lives the best they can possibly make it.

James,

Please explain this -


What Damage? Fighting for your kids and your M? Come on, do you really believe your actions have been wrong?

I don't believe my 'actions' have been wrong with regards to fighting for my kids and my M.... the intent is in the right place..

But I -have- been trying to 'straighten her out'.. to get her to see what she's doing.. and that's LBing -bigtime-.. and she's got a point.. because I'm operating from the higher moral ground (I'm not the one destroying this family, and I'm not the one who is sleeping with someone else now) I probably do come off as a bit arrogant to her. I honestly think it's her adjusting to the new self confidence I seem to have found.. and trying to find fault in -everything- I do.

So.. no, while I'm not in the 'wrong' here.. I have felt an overwhelming need to be 'right'... and that self righteousness in the -both- of us is one of the things that weakened our marriage. I have to step back, understand that based if nothing else on her inability to have an R talk with me face to face (heck she even told me she wanted a divorce in a 'letter' left for me.. and would only talk about it on the phone.. she -refused- to do it face to face).. she knows she is in the wrong. Her Father and Sister found out about the D from me, not her.. I had called them to thank them for being a wonderful family to me and hope that we could continue a relationship post D.

They were blindsided.. they knew she was talking of leaving to get 'some space'.. and had their suspicions already about there being an OM.. I only confirmed it with the evidence I had on hand. I know her dad is torn up about this.. he told me the day we got married that he'd never approved of any of the Ice Queen's significant others before me.. and had told his daughter after meeting me the first time 'Don't you -ever- let him go'... and the day I told him that IQ didn't want me to talk to him or her sister anymore.. he told me that he honestly didn't know who his daughter was right now, and was deeply hurt that she would act this way towards a man he knew loved her and her children, and made every sacrifice to enrich the lives of his family.. and then he said something to me for the first time.. honestly I don't think I've even heard him say it to his daughters since I've known him... but he told me that he loved me.

IQ's sister.. is -very- Catholic.. and extremely anti-divorce (despite having one herself -years- ago).. her marriage isn't all roses either, but they are committed to staying married and overcoming their problems. After I had informed FIL about the D.. I got a call from SIL about 5 minutes later.. first words after my 'hello' was: 'That spoiled little brat!!'... older sisters have a way with words don't they? And when I confirmed her suspicions about the A.. she was livid.. beyond livid.. and I believe from the trickle of information I hear that she still is.. and that FIL and SIL are -still- helping me fight for my family.. and I have sent word to them through various channels about how much I love and appreciate them for it.

I've exposed to DSD's grandparents who have managed to be in contact with the Ice Queen and have applied their pressure in very non-judgmental ways.. always out of concern for what is best for the children.. always out of love and support for our family and their belief in the strength of our M.. and always leaving her with their impression of what I'm going through.. as they see the man who loves his wife, loves his family, and is fighting with all his might, and doing all he knows to do, to protect his family from harm.


I have wonderful allies in this fight.. IQ sees it as me turning her family into adversaries against her.. I hope someday she will understand that the people that -really- love her.. cannot support her in this decision -because- we love her, and do not want to see her, or our children suffer for this any more than we already are..

I don't remember who said it earlier in the thread.. but they are right... my suffering is incidental. Even if it is -her- objective.. for whatever reason.

Saw Purdue on your thread and had to finish reading. My sister is going to Purdue right now and we are very big Boilermaker family. Anyway, now that I have deduced what state you are from, I will comment.

First of all in our state you CAN NOT keep your son. You are very right in doing this. We are currently trying to get custody of my H's OC. We have a very aggresive lawyer and he said that under no terms were we to try to keep her. She is in a situation where her mother is now in a very violent lesbian relationship and has refused visitation. She is also a horrible drug addict. This is still not enough to get emergency custody. If you don't send your son back to his mother, you will lose all hope of custody for good. Our state is a very slow state when it comes to legal issues. We have been trying for custody since May and have yet to have a court date.

Her mother has refused to let us see her except for a few days since May and it is well within her legal right to do so. When you let your wife take your son away the first time, you gave up the right to keep him with you without legal documentation. Unfortuantely in our state, the fathers do not have the same rights as mothers despite their married status. Even if you had kept him when she moved out, you still would have probably had to give him back until you had legal custody. This advice was given to my H when we were divorcing. He threatened to keep our oldest daughter and his lawyer told him that I would very easily get her back and he would lose in the end. You are going about this the right way. Stay firm and build your case. I do agree with getting CPS over there to look at the environment. It will only help if they check out both homes and then get that info into the case.

I will pray for you and continue to build the best case that you can. Look at it as her having more time to screw up. Her unwillingness to work with you will hurt her not you. Continue to follow your lawyers guidlines and remember that every state is different. Especially if you live in the county I think you do. Your ability to stick to your word will work wonders in your favor.



My prayers are with you.

Baloney...that is a ridiculous post. Custody is NOT determined on a state basis anyway. Your H's OC is a whole diffrent ball of yarn that a child of a father that has raised him.

Your comment about him giving up his right the first time she took him away is without merit. Show me the statute. Your comments are flat out wrong and ridiculously uninformed.

Illinois Child Custody Laws
Go to another Illinois divorce page...

Illinois Laws on Best Interest of the Child.
(750 ILCS 5/602)
The court shall determine custody in accordance with the best interest of the child. The court shall consider all relevant factors including the following guidelines:

1. The wishes of the child's parent or parents as to custody of the child;

2. The wishes of the child as to custody;

3. The interaction and interrelationship of the child with his parent or parents, his siblings and any other person who may significantly affect the child's best interest;

4. The child's adjustment to his home, school and community;

5. The mental and physical health of all individuals involved;

6. The physical violence or threat of physical violence by the child's potential custodian, whether directed against the child or directed against another person;

7. The occurrence of ongoing abuse as defined in Section 103 of the Illinois Domestic Violence Act of 1986, whether directed against the child or directed against another person; and

8. The willingness and ability of each parent to facilitate and encourage a close and continuing relationship between the other parent and the child.

The court doesn't consider conduct of a present or proposed custodian that does not affect the relationship to the child.


Laws of Joint Custody.
(750 ILCS 5/602.1)
Unless the court finds the occurrence of ongoing abuse, it shall presume that the maximum involvement and cooperation of both parents regarding the physical, mental, moral, and emotional well-being of their child is in the best interest of the child. There shall be no presumption in favor of or against joint custody but upon the application of either or both parents, or upon its own motion, the court shall consider an award of joint custody. The court may enter an order of joint custody if it determines that joint custody would be in the best interests of the child, taking into account the following:


1. The ability of the parents to cooperate effectively and consistently in matters that directly affect the joint parenting of the child. "Ability of the parents to cooperate" means the parents' capacity to substantially comply with a Joint Parenting Order. The court shall not consider the inability of the parents to cooperate effectively and consistently in matters that do not directly affect the joint parenting of the child;


2. The residential circumstances of each parent; and


3. All other factors which may be relevant to the best interest of the child.

MEDC, child CUSTODY laws ARE different in each state.

I KNOW the laws are different in each state BUT custody is determined at a local level not in a state court.

Illionois laws are just like the vast majority of the others,.....even better in some respects...the law is in the post above

I DO agree with MEDC that the circumstances in your case are very different from this situation and advice given to you by your attorney may not apply here.

The FACTS that GC pointed out are not accurate at all. Not even close.

Well actually each state has their own statutes concerning family law, but I think you are correct. It's still up to the local Judge.

I know this to be true because I just went thru it. My H recieved this same advice that James it getting from his lawyer. IF he takes his son..it will damage his case. It is best that he leaves him with his mother for now because he will want to be viewed as being the parent that is not pulling the child back and forth. I was not referring to the OC as being a like case only like advice....i DID mention that my H recieved this advice also even though we were married. If he does not go thru the legal channels he will lose custody. The judge will look at it as petty domestic disputes and will look at it as a personal vendeta against his wife. If he can get CPS in there and get a negative report...THEN he could file for emergency custody and keep his son. Until then it is not advisable. I just called my lawyer and double checked this information. It is sound. In our state, the mothers have the legal rights..it may not be what the law reads, but it IS how it is. This state is not as quick to recongnize a fathers legal rights against that of the birth mother. It may not be right and it may not be how it should be...but its how it is. They almost always take the mothers side no matter the situation. Our states legal matters are very much in need of some help.

I know they have their own statutes, I have posted them right on this thread.
Illinois statutes are better than some others...basically the same in that "best interest" is given a lot of weight...better in the it really takes other things into consideration.

GC...you made a lot of statements that were not true.



Where did you get that the father gives up his legal rights to his child the first time he lets her leave with him. Legal rights are determined by statute.
There are fathers rights lawyers in your state....James and I spoke of one, that specialize in this and disagree with the approach of the lawyer. But bottom line, the statutes have been posted...and they are NOT as you portrayed them.

James needs to be comfortable with his lawyer. ..he is...my point in responding to you was that you gave incorrect info regarding the laws...not your experience...but the laws of the state.

Have you dealt with the local judges here? No..I have. It doesn't really matter what the law states..it matters how the judge rules. If he takes him..he will lose. Don't ever assume someone doesn't know how to play the legal game in their own state. This is Indiana not Illinois. I went to college for this and I keep up with the child legal system in our county and surrounding very well. I know what I am talking about. He is doing exactly what he should do. Indiana does not always rule in favor of the child...it favors the mother. Not a great system but that is how things are here.

He did not give up his legal rights to the child only his ability to keep him in the home. I am not talking about legal here...i am talking about winning custody. They are two different things.